I am going to click "Found it!" when the Benchmark no longer exists

October 12, 2002

I looked for a bunch of benchmarks today that were all missing. As in gone. Destroyed. I am going to click on "Found it!" so I get credit for it when the Benchmark no longer exists.

1.5k · October 12, 2002

CHEATER!!!!

Just kidding... do whatever floats your boat, man - scores only mean something if you are competing with someone. If you feel you deserve the credit for the find - by all means, claim it as a find. If I were you, though, I'd at least be 99% sure the marker was destroyed and/or removed. Hell, I wouldn't claim 'em as a find, myself - but like I said... you are only 'cheating' if you are comparing your scores against others, and I'm not fond of that idea.

Do you also claim a find when you find the spot where a cache is supposed to be, but has been stolen or otherwise removed? I did that once when I first started - but have since decided that is kinda lame. I only log a "found" when I can hold the cache in my hand, or when I can see the marker that is supposed to be there.

Anyway - have fun.

The Toe Pages

October 12, 2002

How appropriate for Columbus Day! "Hey Queena Isabella, I'ma no find dis America place"! "But no worry, we breaka Viking knee caps if dey takea credit"!

October 13, 2002

Seems to me that the only credit one might get for something that does not exist would be credit that also does not exist. Given that everyone else is having some success, if you are not finding any at all you are either looking superficially or you have chosen a very poor area to look in. Its pointless to search in areas that have been completely redeveloped in recent years. The highest percentage success rates will be obtained in undeveloped rural areas. Anyway, as I have said before, each individual is free to establish their own standards and each will develop a reputation accordingly.

1.5k · October 13, 2002

... but I bet that ScubaGecko would count this as a find.

I found it today while getting a nearby cache... er... I found the location where the benchmark was supposed to be, that is. If I don't see the marker, I don't take credit for finding it. That's just how I play.

The Toe Pages

October 13, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:
... but I bet that ScubaGecko would count http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=JY0150 as a find.

I found it today while getting a nearby cache... er... I found the location where the benchmark was supposed to be, that is. If I don't see the marker, I don't take credit for finding it. That's just how I play.

http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe/banana.gif http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe/index.html

The station is definately in need of repair, but you did find it. NGS would list it as recovered in poor condition, but recovered.

~Honest Value Never Fails~

2.7k · October 13, 2002

Yep, and I logged this one as a find. The location is right on; this is the station location and part of it is still there!

In other cases, I have found a big hole in the ground in the place where the station's supposed to be. I don't count that as a find. I think it is where the benchmark was dug up, but it could actually be a fencepost hole, a gopher hole, or anything, and the actual benchmark could be hiding 2 feet away under 2 inches of grass!

But, if I find the disk's circular mark and the metal of the shank in the proper location, I count it as a find.

October 13, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by scubagecko:
I looked for a bunch of benchmarks today that were all missing. As in gone. Destroyed. I am going to click on "Found it!" so I get credit for it when the Benchmark no longer exists.

I guess the reason that I am clicking "Found it!" instead of something else is so that it appears in my records on the site so I can go back to it later. I tried clicking "Couldn't find it!" and it didn't show up as any entry AT ALL on my page. I thought that was a dumb idea since the geocaches I have NOT found (and which I log that way Rubbertoes ) show up as me NOT finding them. In the description I explain that they were destroyed so that no one thinks it should be there. As soon as Benchmarks show up as NOT found on your cache page then I will be more than happy to switch to "Couldn't find it!". Here are the Benchmarks so everyone can see how I logged them: LB2408, LB0963, LB0965, LB0967

October 13, 2002

Also, I haven't met anyone else who has tried to find a Benchmark so my tiny input is more than anyone else is doing around here. No one could care less about Benchmarks. And I AM _finding_ that they are GONE. Which is what NGS would want to know. Its not like Benchmarks are hidden like a geocache is. They are in an exact location which is spelled out in minute, anal-retentive detail in the description. So, if they aren't there any more then that is what I have FOUND. To prove me wrong, then go find one of these Benchmarks.

2.7k · October 13, 2002

Actually, what the NGS allows is this:

1. You may report the marker as destroyed IF the benchmark is out of its position ***AND*** you find the actual benchmark.

2. If you do not find the marker, you may report it as not found.

In other words, if you find the actual marker, you report it as either: "found", or if it is obviously moved out of position, "destroyed". If you do not find the marker, you report it as "not found".

The NGS does not want any "gone" reports.

This is why the geocaching site doesn't have any "gone" report category either.

Please try to go along with these NGS reporting guidelines so that we can, as a group, look responsible to the NGS.

We know and have commented on the fact that the geocaching site doesn't show 'not founds' in indexes. This might be fixed later - it isn't a big deal anyway. What is much more important is to be seen to go along with the NGS guidelines now as well as later. That's where the real credit is!

[This message was edited by Black Dog Trackers on October 13, 2002 at 10:58 PM.]

October 13, 2002

First things first: pay less attention to that GPSr and more to your environment. It looks like you almost got "runned over by a durned ol' train". The coordinates for a bm are not as accurate as they are for a cache.

The 'not found' category can be just as important as the 'found it'.

As an example: click on my user name, you'll see 13 bm's found, click on 'found' and it'll take you to the list. There are 23 PID's there, 10 are the ones I've entered as not found. Some of these even have photos. All have explanations of why I couldn't find the bm. Some of the reasons are because they're not there, and others are just because I couldn't find it at the time. Somebody else may find these, and maybe my descriptions might help. Check out my last one of NG0254, you'll also see a little note on a current event.

I checked your profile. On LB2408 there are 2 reference marks and an azimuth that you didn't mention. If you'd found any one of these, it may have helped your 'creditability'. Sometimes it's good to view the original database for more 'anal' descriptions. I once searched an hour for an azimuth that I later found out was an airway beacon, most of these have been gone for years.

2.7k · October 14, 2002

Wow, thanks for the tip, Cholo! I didn't realize this feature was there (maybe it is new). Looks like a couple of bugs in it, but this is great! I had lost a couple of not-founds, and now I can review them again.

I like the skull icon! I will have to try to recover some of them like I see Dawgies has. Just a little skulduggery could be a good thing.

On thing - BM coordinates are more accurate than the coordinates for a cache IF the PID sheet says, just under the coordinates, "location is ADJUSTED". Alternatively, if the PID sheet says "location is SCALED", then its coordinates will be less accurate than the typical geocache.

1.5k · October 14, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by scubagecko:
I guess the reason that I am clicking "Found it!" instead of something else is so that it appears in my records on the site so I can go back to it later.

Yeah - that is a good point... I've logged "not found" on several that were just completely gone - along with the one listed in my post above, where only the marker was missing.

I went to "my cache page" to see if they showed up anywhere, and they don't. I kinda thought it would show up in the section where it shows any logs you've left on caches... but I guess that is the point - that is for caches, not markers.

Wow - you folks are almost swaying me... I'm tempted to log it as found, along with description of how it is very missing. Like someone said... part of the station is still there. Doh! I don't know what to do!

I'm leaning more towards claiming it as a find now... yeah, I think I've just adjusted my own rules. If there is SOMETHING there remaining of the marker - I think I'll mark it as found. Hell, I'm in the right location, and it is obvious that I'm where I am supposed to be to find it. If there is no sign of ANYTHING in the area, like this one that I found, I'll continue using "not found" logs.

Curse you, peer pressure!!

The Toe Pages

1.5k · October 14, 2002

Doh! I just noticed that as well... going to your profile page and clicking on the number next to Benchmarks Found will show both all markers that you have logged, found or otherwise.

That makes my decision harder. Maybe I should follow the rules that BDT posted - since those are the rules that "official" folks would use, if searching and reporting to the NGS.

(can you all see the morality gears churning in my head right now? oh what should I do?) *laugh*

I think I've decided what is acceptable to me, without claiming "found" for markers that aren't there anymore

If I look and nothing is there = Not Found

If I find something (missing marker hole, foundation of tower, etc) but not the actual marker = Note

If I find the marker = Found

Yeah... that sounds good, and it doesn't go against my original idea of what a "found" benchmark should be.

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on October 14, 2002 at 11:20 AM.]

October 14, 2002

quote:
On thing - BM coordinates are more accurate than the coordinates for a cache IF the PID sheet says, just under the coordinates, "location is ADJUSTED". Alternatively, if the PID sheet says "location is SCALED", then its coordinates will be less accurate than the typical geocache.

If the location is adjusted, then it is a Horizontal Control Station, with coordinates accurate to hundreths of a foot. If it is shown as scaled, then it is a Benchmark, with coordinates accurate to hundreds of feet. That is why the Data Sheet will show the coordinates for a HCS to five decimal places, and coordinates for a Benchmark to the nearest second.

Surveyors will use a HCS for accurate horizontal positioning and a Benchmark for accurate vertical positioning.

2.7k · October 14, 2002

Now that I see that I can actially list my 'not founds', I'm motivated to fill in some more of them. I do have a complete record of them, because I enter all BM coords into my GPS by hand and haven't deleted any. So any that it has in its list, I know I have tried to find. Got the date too! For me, a good part of the 'credit' is to have taken the effort to out and look carefully, even if I didn't find it and have to record 'not found'.

Hey, for the credit-happy, I'll give DOUBLE 'credit' to anyone who finds a 'skull icon' BM! Even just going out to look for one of those deserves extra credit.

I'd still like to see 'not found' and 'note' icons or something on the proximity search. I'm hoping that's coming soon.

October 14, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Cholo:
First things first: pay less attention to that GPSr and more to your environment. It looks like you almost got "runned over by a durned ol' train".

Yes, and now I don't look for benchmarks on railroad tracks anymore. Its amazing how dangerous it is.

On LB2408 there are 2 reference marks and an azimuth that you didn't mention. If you'd found any one of these, it may have helped your 'creditability'. Sometimes it's good to view the original database for more 'anal' descriptions. I once searched an hour for an azimuth that I later found out was an airway beacon, most of these have been gone for years.

Um. There is no train station. There is no white witness post within view of the horizon. There is no board fence. There is no benchmark. The house and the little concrete building are still there. I know exactly where the benchmark should be, it just isn't there now. I was very careful trying to get the 4 benchmarks I listed. Two of the other 3 even had white witness posts nearby at the intersections. Just no benchmarks. Since my cache page doesn't show all of my benchmarks as found or not found I will continue logging them the way I have been until the website is FIXED. Geocaching is a game. Benchmarking is on the game site. So Benchmarking is a game. If the NGS is relying on a game site for their data then they ought to expect to have to actually read the log files to find out whether the benchmark is found, not found, or gone. If they don't like it then they can get off their lazy behinds and look for them themselves and stop relying on my charity to accomplish their jobs. How's that?

October 14, 2002

Don't sweat it, nobody is relying on you.

Makes me wonder how many others may be deliberately reporting false info. At least this individual was honest enough to admit it. If anyone needed an example of the confusion and misinformation that can result from participation by the untrained in professional activities, this sequence has certainly illustrated it.

9.4k · October 14, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by survey tech:
Makes me wonder how many others may be deliberately reporting false info.

It also makes me wonder how many other folks deliberately offer false info in the actual register.

Until we add official "NGS-friendly" log types, there really isn't an official rule, per se. But indicating that you found nothing is, well, not right in my book. I'm just not exactly sure what it's supposed to mean. It's like saying that I didn't pick up a thousand pennies today, but I said I did.

If we did add "NGS-friendly" log types, I guess your personal reputation is your indication of your own skill. We'll probably require actual photos of benchmarks that have been recovered as well. That won't even happen unless we get the blessing of the NGS in the first place.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.5k · October 14, 2002

Heh - I wouldn't allow individual reports at all, if I were them. Half of the people in this world are morons, and would either supply bogus info - if not steal the markers themselves.

I also worry about newbies making "official" reports to the NGS about missing markers, when perhaps they just weren't able to find them. (I mentioned this in another thread recently) I have a feeling that is a problem - I've e-mailed a few folks who were getting anxious to help by sumbitting official reports to the agency, but who might not have been that skilled in finding benchmarks.

Heck, I don't have a ton of finds, hides, benchmarks found, etc - but I consider myself pretty good at finding stuff. Yet I still wouldn't consider sending an official "marker destroyed" report to the NGS unless I was touching the gaping hole where a benchmark was removed or holding the broken marker in my own two hands.

I hope people are selective in their reports.

The Toe Pages

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on October 14, 2002 at 09:34 PM.]

October 16, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

quote:
Originally posted by survey tech:
Makes me wonder how many others may be deliberately reporting false info.

It also makes me wonder how many other folks deliberately offer false info in the actual register.

Until we add official "NGS-friendly" log types, there really isn't an official rule, per se. But indicating that you found nothing is, well, not right in my book. I'm just not exactly sure what it's supposed to mean. It's like saying that I didn't pick up a thousand pennies today, but I said I did.

If we did add "NGS-friendly" log types, I guess your personal reputation is your indication of your own skill. We'll probably require actual photos of benchmarks that have been recovered as well. That won't even happen unless we get the blessing of the NGS in the first place.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

^

|----- Hey look! Its the big mucky-muck himself! I'm honored indeed to come to your attention. [i grovel at your feet and wash your feet with my tears of joy] I won't pretend to know how you have the info set up on your site but it seems easy enough to have the same yellow smiley or purple frown as appears next to the geocaches also appear next to the Benchmarks on the My Caches page to show the Benchmarks you have found and not found. Everyone wins that way. I also won't pretend to know what arrangement you have with NGS, if any, or what importance it has for them or for you. No one cares how many Benchmarks I have; I am not competing with anyone for the most finds. I look for them if I think about it and there are no close geocaches to find. No one has told me that my Benchmarking logs have any problems. Its _me_ pointing out the problem on the site that is forcing me to log a FIND when the Benchmark is gone so that I can see all my Benchmarks on the same page as my Found and Not-Found geocaches. You know how to make that happen. I am just your humble, fawning supplicant who has come to have you stretch out your mighty hand and cause it to be.

scubagecko

9.4k · October 16, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by scubagecko:
|----- Hey look! Its the big mucky-muck himself! I'm honored indeed to come to your attention. [i grovel at your feet and wash your feet with my tears of joy]

Did I do something do deserve all this sarcasm? Perhaps if your original post was "can I show finds and not finds on my "my cache page" I may have understood the point of all this.

Sounds reasonable. I'll see what I can do about adding this feature. You can currently see all of them listed when you "see your profile as others see you" and click on the benchmark link now.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

1.4k · October 16, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:
Perhaps if your original post was "can I show finds and not finds on my "my cache page" I may have understood the point of all this.

Sounds reasonable. I'll see what I can do about adding this feature.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

Please! Please! Please! Just like the caches! How about the "last 10 days or last 10 logs" concept, too? My BM list is getting really long...

Any chance that BMs I've found can be moved to the bottom of the search page, like caches?

Keep up the great work, Jeremy!

October 16, 2002

quote:
Did I do something do deserve all this sarcasm? Perhaps if your original post was "can I show finds and not finds on my "my cache page" I may have understood the point of all this.

Sounds reasonable. I'll see what I can do about adding this feature. You can currently see all of them listed when you "see your profile as others see you" and click on the benchmark link now.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

Don't get all worked up, I'm just kidding around. It does sound sarcastic but I'm just kidding around.

October 17, 2002

Funny thing about this... I just might have been of the same mind as scuba on this one if I hadn't gone looking through the TO REACH descriptions before looking for anything. I came across this Caltrans bench with an official US Power Squad report mentioning things like "mattock" and "soil probing."

I think perhaps caution and maximum discretion is required in deciding whether to call something 'destroyed' rather than 'not found.' With the proper tools, even the smallest needles emerge from the most massive haystacks.

-Trik

5.7k · October 17, 2002

I think a "couldn't find, but couldn't verify it was physically destroyed" should definitely be reported as a not found. This is much more valuable information to record and *IS* viewable if you just take a few extra clicks from your "my cache page" to get there. And that way, if someone later on actually finds it (I've done this on ones that had previously been reported as not found), the data will be more accurately recorded and less confusing.

--Marky

October 25, 2002

This topic is now dead because the problem has been solved with the addition of the Destroyed button. Now all my benchmarks are in the right category!

October 28, 2002

I contacted Deb Brown with the NGS about one of my finds...an obvious destroyed marker, like this onefor example. She gave me permission to recover and keep the disk.

1.5k · October 28, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Thallas:
I contacted Deb Brown with the NGS about one of my finds...an obvious destroyed marker, like http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=RJ0370for example. She gave me permission to recover and keep the disk.

Umm.. couldn't you (or shouldn't you) have just put it back into the ground? I'm amazed that Deb or anyone at that agency would suggest that someone just keep a disc if they find it removed from its spot. I would think even if it is found like that, they should at least request that it be returned to them. I mean, less honorable benchmark hunters could just pry loose a disc they want to keep, send a photo to Deb - to which she'd reply with a "Oh, just go ahead and keep it" or something. Doesn't seem quite right.

Seriously - if it is at all possible for you to put the marker back in the ground the way it was supposed to be, I would do it. If it is somehow broken or otherwise unable to be returned to its former position, then - well, I guess you should just do like Deb said. I guess this really opens up the interpretation of what a "destroyed" marker would be... it seems that if it is moved from its spot whatsoever, that she considers it destroyed and will file a report accordingly.

Although - I wonder what kind of real power/authority Deb has to be telling people to do, or not to do, anything regarding benchmarks. I've still not mucked around their site enough to know who is important or not.

The Toe Pages

October 28, 2002

Yeah, True. Its been beat to death. Whatever happened, it did a number to the disk itself. The whole concrete post it was in was pulled from the ground

It looks as if someone actually pulled it from the ground. Kinda dissapointing really. It was my second find.

Deb seen the pics I uploaded here, and she made the call that it was classified as destroyed.

5.7k · October 30, 2002

I think trying to reinstall a removed or damaged benchmark would be pointless. There is no way (unless you are a surveyor) that you could put it back in correct location. Having it back in the ground it the wrong location would be a "Bad Thing". Kudos to you for calling it in and getting permission to keep it.

--Marky

"Everyone spends time in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

February 9, 2003

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=AA7436

'nuff said about coordinate accuracy ;-)

and BM not founds / notes etc are posting on my list for me just fine.

SA / PP-ASEL-I

4.7k · February 18, 2003

hey, what if the NGS reports it as "destroyed by snowplow", but there's a brand spankin' new monument alnong with a survey rod at the location? can i list it as found?

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

February 18, 2003

If what you found does not exactly match the description, it will nearly always turn out to be a different point that merely happens to be in very nearly the same place.

I am going to click "Found it!" when the Benchmark no longer exists

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