Would this be a violation of the rules?

[+mchaos]

Okay okay,

 

This is getting out of hand. This whole thread was just to get peoples opinions, not to be kicking each others teeth in.

Sounds like you're feeling a sore in the gums. The overwhelming opinion here is that your container would be a violation.

 

Even though your idea was creative, it just isn't going to fly on GC.

 

I'd suggest closing this thread and save yourself additional angst.

 

~ Mitch ~

 

I have actually found a placement for this cache that will not break the guide lines!

 

I have a friend who owns construction company. He does a lot of masonry work too. I was talking to him and said he will let me know when he is pouring cement for some one.

 

So basically it comes down to finding some one who will be getting a side walk at a business, who would be cool with setting this cache in the side walk when it is poured. Bound to be some one who will go for it.

 

He said I could just talk to the said owners when an opportunity comes up.

 

So if I do find some one who would be cool with something like this being in a side walk on there property, then it will not void guide lines.

 

1) it will already be dug up because of the need to put a side walk in.

2) I will have permission.

 

This sort of placement will not void guide lines, and should not ruffle any feathers what so ever.

 

Only things is, who knows when I will find some one cool with doing this. But I keep a look out and when it can be placed, it will be all good.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Okay okay,

 

This is getting out of hand. This whole thread was just to get peoples opinions, not to be kicking each others teeth in.

Sounds like you're feeling a sore in the gums. The overwhelming opinion here is that your container would be a violation.

 

Even though your idea was creative, it just isn't going to fly on GC.

 

I'd suggest closing this thread and save yourself additional angst.

 

~ Mitch ~

 

I have actually found a placement for this cache that will not break the guide lines!

 

I have a friend who owns construction company. He does a lot of masonry work too. I was talking to him and said he will let me know when he is pouring cement for some one.

 

So basically it comes down to finding some one who will be getting a side walk at a business, who would be cool with setting this cache in the side walk when it is poured. Bound to be some one who will go for it.

 

He said I could just talk to the said owners when an opportunity comes up.

 

So if I do find some one who would be cool with something like this being in a side walk on there property, then it will not void guide lines.

 

1) it will already be dug up because of the need to put a side walk in.

2) I will have permission.

 

This sort of placement will not void guide lines, and should not ruffle any feathers what so ever.

 

Only things is, who knows when I will find some one cool with doing this. But I keep a look out and when it can be placed, it will be all good.

 

At this point it looks like you're intent on placing a cache in the ground in such a way that you can take advantage of a loophole in the language of the guideline.

 

In post #95 you had a list of how some have responded in the thread yet completely ignored the postings by several which made the point that the guideline has a purpose. While you can come up with a semantic interpretation of the guideline which would allow you to place a cache in the ground, why do you insist on ignoring what some have called "the spirit of the guideline".

[Clan Riffster]

...why do you insist on ignoring what some have called "the spirit of the guideline".

Because, in any group there will always be a small handful of folks who honestly believe that group's mores and/or standards should not apply to them. Since they don't want to be seen as directly violating the standards, they look for interpretive loopholes. Because of their beliefs, future consequences of their actions, (such as others copying their ideas), are irrelevant.

[+mchaos]

I am not going to be digging a hole any where. Its not going to be in a hole in the dirt.

 

this is not the kind of thing the guideline about digging or burying caches was intended to stop.

 

If some one who having a side walk put in, just puts a 4" tube of PVC in the sidewalk, then I can put the container in, but I do not have to put it in a side walk anyway. I can place this if there is any 4" PVC in a wall, where I have permission by owners to put i there. Then it will not even be near the ground.

 

I could find an existing 4" pvc in a wall or side of a building.Then I can get permission from owner. If the owner says it is okay to put it in the existing pvc, then it will not violate guidelines.

 

I think now its more about making an excuse for me not to place this cache rather then if this container violates guidelines.

 

I could place this in a way that it is no where near dirt, And the PVC tube is already there, and I had nothing to do with it being there, and the owner has given me permission put the container in there, ( By container, I mean the part with the fake drain cover on it, not the sleeve) then I would be in no way shape or form any where near breaking any guidelines. That doesn't matter any way. I have already come up with the end all solution to placing this.....

 

Yeah, I am INTENT on placing this cache, BUT only if the reviewer says it is good to go, and not breaking guidelines, with a clear explanation of how the cache is placed. So yes. This will eventually get placed I am sure, JUST not in the ground.

 

So who is the next person who is going to come up with some reason this cache can not be placed?

 

Well here is what I have decided on. I will put the tube in a block of cement. A free standing block. Something not anchored and movable. Only big enough to look permanent. This can then be placed any where. It can be placed in the woods, with the Block sitting on top of the dirt with no holes, with the cache container in the block that is not in the ground. I can place it anywhere as long as I have permission. It can be near a side walk. it can sit any where and not violate guidelines. It would be a block of cement, something I can move, but heavy enough that it would seem like its in the ground and permanent, but will be movable. If I ever archive it, I can just pick up the block and take it home.

 

This cache will be placed,

BUT IT WILL BE BY GUIDELINES AND THE REVIEWER WILL HAVE ALL THE DETAILS OF THE HIDE.

 

so, go ahead, tell me why that placement would be against guidelines. At this point I think it is more about flaming me, and just finding reasons why I can't place this container, rather then weather or not this cache meets guidelines. You can tell which people here have respect for others here. They are the ones offering suggestions on how it may be placed by guidelines and not just trying to find a reason to say this cache is not allowed. To those, thank you.....

[GOF's Sock Puppet]

I am not going to be digging a hole any where. Its not going to be in a hole in the dirt.

 

this is not the kind of thing the guideline about digging or burying caches was intended to stop.

 

If some one who having a side walk put in, just puts a 4" tube of PVC in the sidewalk, then I can put the container in, but I do not have to put it in a side walk anyway. I can place this if there is any 4" PVC in a wall, where I have permission by owners to put i there. Then it will not even be near the ground.

 

I could find an existing 4" pvc in a wall or side of a building.Then I can get permission from owner. If the owner says it is okay to put it in the existing pvc, then it will not violate guidelines.

 

I think now its more about making an excuse for me not to place this cache rather then if this container violates guidelines.

 

I could place this in a way that it is no where near dirt, And the PVC tube is already there, and I had nothing to do with it being there, and the owner has given me permission put the container in there, ( By container, I mean the part with the fake drain cover on it, not the sleeve) then I would be in no way shape or form any where near breaking any guidelines. That doesn't matter any way. I have already come up with the end all solution to placing this.....

 

Yeah, I am INTENT on placing this cache, BUT only if the reviewer says it is good to go, and not breaking guidelines, with a clear explanation of how the cache is placed. So yes. This will eventually get placed I am sure, JUST not in the ground.

 

So who is the next person who is going to come up with some reason this cache can not be placed?

 

Well here is what I have decided on. I will put the tube in a block of cement. A free standing block. Something not anchored and movable. Only big enough to look permanent. This can then be placed any where. It can be placed in the woods, with the Block sitting on top of the dirt with no holes, with the cache container in the block that is not in the ground. I can place it anywhere as long as I have permission. It can be near a side walk. it can sit any where and not violate guidelines. It would be a block of cement, something I can move, but heavy enough that it would seem like its in the ground and permanent, but will be movable. If I ever archive it, I can just pick up the block and take it home.

 

This cache will be placed,

BUT IT WILL BE BY GUIDELINES AND THE REVIEWER WILL HAVE ALL THE DETAILS OF THE HIDE.

 

so, go ahead, tell me why that placement would be against guidelines. At this point I think it is more about flaming me, and just finding reasons why I can't place this container, rather then weather or not this cache meets guidelines. You can tell which people here have respect for others here. They are the ones offering suggestions on how it may be placed by guidelines and not just trying to find a reason to say this cache is not allowed. To those, thank you.....

 

Stop thinking that this is some sort of personal attack on you. It is far from it. This is about the guidelines and EVERYBODY has to work within those.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I am not going to be digging a hole any where. Its not going to be in a hole in the dirt.

 

this is not the kind of thing the guideline about digging or burying caches was intended to stop.

 

If some one who having a side walk put in, just puts a 4" tube of PVC in the sidewalk, then I can put the container in, but I do not have to put it in a side walk anyway. I can place this if there is any 4" PVC in a wall, where I have permission by owners to put i there. Then it will not even be near the ground.

 

I could find an existing 4" pvc in a wall or side of a building.Then I can get permission from owner. If the owner says it is okay to put it in the existing pvc, then it will not violate guidelines.

 

I think now its more about making an excuse for me not to place this cache rather then if this container violates guidelines.

 

It's not all about you.

 

It's not about the specific cache that you want to place.

 

Is this cache going to be at an interesting spot, have a nice walk or hike to the location, present an interesting challenge to someone searching for it, or are you just placing the cache to prove a point to all those you that perceive are trying to prevent you from placing a cache?

[+mchaos]

I am not going to be digging a hole any where. Its not going to be in a hole in the dirt.

 

this is not the kind of thing the guideline about digging or burying caches was intended to stop.

 

If some one who having a side walk put in, just puts a 4" tube of PVC in the sidewalk, then I can put the container in, but I do not have to put it in a side walk anyway. I can place this if there is any 4" PVC in a wall, where I have permission by owners to put i there. Then it will not even be near the ground.

 

I could find an existing 4" pvc in a wall or side of a building.Then I can get permission from owner. If the owner says it is okay to put it in the existing pvc, then it will not violate guidelines.

 

I think now its more about making an excuse for me not to place this cache rather then if this container violates guidelines.

 

I could place this in a way that it is no where near dirt, And the PVC tube is already there, and I had nothing to do with it being there, and the owner has given me permission put the container in there, ( By container, I mean the part with the fake drain cover on it, not the sleeve) then I would be in no way shape or form any where near breaking any guidelines. That doesn't matter any way. I have already come up with the end all solution to placing this.....

 

Yeah, I am INTENT on placing this cache, BUT only if the reviewer says it is good to go, and not breaking guidelines, with a clear explanation of how the cache is placed. So yes. This will eventually get placed I am sure, JUST not in the ground.

 

So who is the next person who is going to come up with some reason this cache can not be placed?

 

Well here is what I have decided on. I will put the tube in a block of cement. A free standing block. Something not anchored and movable. Only big enough to look permanent. This can then be placed any where. It can be placed in the woods, with the Block sitting on top of the dirt with no holes, with the cache container in the block that is not in the ground. I can place it anywhere as long as I have permission. It can be near a side walk. it can sit any where and not violate guidelines. It would be a block of cement, something I can move, but heavy enough that it would seem like its in the ground and permanent, but will be movable. If I ever archive it, I can just pick up the block and take it home.

 

This cache will be placed,

BUT IT WILL BE BY GUIDELINES AND THE REVIEWER WILL HAVE ALL THE DETAILS OF THE HIDE.

 

so, go ahead, tell me why that placement would be against guidelines. At this point I think it is more about flaming me, and just finding reasons why I can't place this container, rather then weather or not this cache meets guidelines. You can tell which people here have respect for others here. They are the ones offering suggestions on how it may be placed by guidelines and not just trying to find a reason to say this cache is not allowed. To those, thank you.....

 

Stop thinking that this is some sort of personal attack on you. It is far from it. This is about the guidelines and EVERYBODY has to work within those.

 

I am not going to be digging a hole any where. Its not going to be in a hole in the dirt.

 

this is not the kind of thing the guideline about digging or burying caches was intended to stop.

 

If some one who having a side walk put in, just puts a 4" tube of PVC in the sidewalk, then I can put the container in, but I do not have to put it in a side walk anyway. I can place this if there is any 4" PVC in a wall, where I have permission by owners to put i there. Then it will not even be near the ground.

 

I could find an existing 4" pvc in a wall or side of a building.Then I can get permission from owner. If the owner says it is okay to put it in the existing pvc, then it will not violate guidelines.

 

I think now its more about making an excuse for me not to place this cache rather then if this container violates guidelines.

 

It's not all about you.

 

It's not about the specific cache that you want to place.

 

Is this cache going to be at an interesting spot, have a nice walk or hike to the location, present an interesting challenge to someone searching for it, or are you just placing the cache to prove a point to all those you that perceive are trying to prevent you from placing a cache?

 

Sure, okay whatever....

 

Would the way I now intend to place this cache infringe on the guidelines?????? That is the question... After all, the original question in the tread was, DOES MY cache break the guidelines. So this thread is about MY cache, and weather it breaks the guidelines.

Edited June 28, 2010 by mchaos

[knowschad]

Thread title: "Would this be a violation of the rules?"

 

Why on earth did you start this thread if you are not willing to hear any answer except "no, its fine... go ahead"?

[+mchaos]

Thread title: "Would this be a violation of the rules?"

 

Why on earth did you start this thread if you are not willing to hear any answer except "no, its fine... go ahead"?

 

Because "this" in the title refers to the cache container I made and weather it would be against the guidelines to place.

 

A lot of people have said things like I am intent on placing it weather it is to guidelines or not. I would not place it if it is not allowed. I tried coming up with a way that would be to guidelines, and every just keeps with me trying to find a look hole, and I just want to place the cache in a way that is allowed. So I have given a new scenario of how I am going to place it, and instead of people commenting on that, they find some other reason to flame me.

 

So I just want to know, is the way I am going to place it now, OKAY according to guidelines? And if so, am I trying to find a loop hole with this, or am I just trying to place it according to guidelines?

[+narcissa]

So if I do find some one who would be cool with something like this being in a side walk on there property, then it will not void guide lines.

 

1) it will already be dug up because of the need to put a side walk in.

2) I will have permission.

 

This sort of placement will not void guide lines, and should not ruffle any feathers what so ever.

 

Only things is, who knows when I will find some one cool with doing this. But I keep a look out and when it can be placed, it will be all good.

 

It really depends on the reviewer. Even with the property owner's permission, there's a good chance a reviewer will say no because the appearance of impropriety, real or imagined, makes the entire game look bad. This is one reason why individual reviewers have room to exercise personal discretion.

[+mchaos]

Yeah but I am not going to even place it that way now. I am going to put it in its own block of cement. That is not in the ground, just on top of it. It will be a non permanent fixture. Something that can be moved if need be. It will look permanent, but that will be a facade for muggles. So it looks like some kind of drain vent oslt. But the important thing is it will be to guidelines.

[+thedeadpirate]

So basically it comes down to finding some one who will be getting a side walk at a business, who would be cool with setting this cache in the side walk when it is poured. Bound to be some one who will go for it.

 

If you can find someone willing to let you put the cache permanently into their sidewalk while it is being poured, then it should be good to go. Good luck.

[+mchaos]

So basically it comes down to finding some one who will be getting a side walk at a business, who would be cool with setting this cache in the side walk when it is poured. Bound to be some one who will go for it.

 

If you can find someone willing to let you put the cache permanently into their sidewalk while it is being poured, then it should be good to go. Good luck.

 

I have just been notified by my local reviewer that my cache can be placed in the way I now intend.

 

This is how it is going to be placed:

 

The sleeve of the cache is going to be set in a block of cement about 8" wide, and 12" high. I am going to use an 8" sonotube as a mold. The block will be free standing. It will not be mounted, buried or anchored in any way. It will just sit on the ground. The fake drain cache will be cemented into that. It can then be placed anywhere. I will find a place where something like this will look common place so it will not stand out. If needed permission will be sought. The cache will be able to be moved if need be.

[knowschad]

Thread title: "Would this be a violation of the rules?"

 

Why on earth did you start this thread if you are not willing to hear any answer except "no, its fine... go ahead"?

Because "this" in the title refers to the cache container I made and weather it would be against the guidelines to place.

That sounds like you are back-peddling to me. There are no cache containers that are a "violation of the rules", something that I'm sure you are very aware of. The rules all have to do with where or how they are hidden.

 

Let me remind you of your opening words:

I have a cache that would have to be partially in the ground.

 

Would coring the ground, which is by definition, "not digging" nor will a pointy, or sharp tool be used, or any kind of object to dig. Simply a piece of pipe driven into the ground, and then pulled out removing a core of dirt?

 

PS: Please note that I am not, and have not, commented on whether or not I think the method of hiding is against the guidelines. I am simply wondering why you would pose a question and then not want to hear the answer.

That is what people have been responding to. Three pages later, you still don't want to hear their answer, so I repeat: why did you ask the question in the first place?

Edited June 28, 2010 by knowschad

[+briansnat]

Well here is what I have decided on. I will put the tube in a block of cement. A free standing block. Something not anchored and movable. Only big enough to look permanent. This can then be placed any where. It can be placed in the woods, with the Block sitting on top of the dirt with no holes, with the cache container in the block that is not in the ground. I can place it anywhere as long as I have permission. It can be near a side walk. it can sit any where and not violate guidelines. It would be a block of cement, something I can move, but heavy enough that it would seem like its in the ground and permanent, but will be movable. If I ever archive it, I can just pick up the block and take it home.

 

That would certainly comply with the guidelines. Good luck getting it to the cache site though.

[+pmolan]

I'm going to ask my reviewer if I could do something similar to that. This way I dont need to throw away what I already have built. If not then I guess I'm back to the trusty old rubbermaid in the bush and the hide-a-key on the guardrail. At least you were trying to think outside the box.

[+bittsen]

I'm going to ask my reviewer if I could do something similar to that. This way I dont need to throw away what I already have built. If not then I guess I'm back to the trusty old rubbermaid in the bush and the hide-a-key on the guardrail. At least you were trying to think outside the box.

 

There's outside the box thinking and completely against the rules thinking.

When cache hiders learn the difference the geogawds will smile.

[+mchaos]

Thread title: "Would this be a violation of the rules?"

 

Why on earth did you start this thread if you are not willing to hear any answer except "no, its fine... go ahead"?

Because "this" in the title refers to the cache container I made and weather it would be against the guidelines to place.

That sounds like you are back-peddling to me. There are no cache containers that are a "violation of the rules", something that I'm sure you are very aware of. The rules all have to do with where or how they are hidden.

 

Let me remind you of your opening words:

I have a cache that would have to be partially in the ground.

 

Would coring the ground, which is by definition, "not digging" nor will a pointy, or sharp tool be used, or any kind of object to dig. Simply a piece of pipe driven into the ground, and then pulled out removing a core of dirt?

 

PS: Please note that I am not, and have not, commented on whether or not I think the method of hiding is against the guidelines. I am simply wondering why you would pose a question and then not want to hear the answer.

That is what people have been responding to. Three pages later, you still don't want to hear their answer, so I repeat: why did you ask the question in the first place?

 

Okay what ever makes you happy.....

 

I started out with posting a pic of the container and what I was going to do with it. Some one challenged me to make another thread and find out what every one else thought so I did.

 

This thread has evolved from there, in a spiraling fury of flaming and people just trying to find some angle to strike some nerves. This thread was posted because of the pics of my container that I posted in the CCC's thread. The title only conveys a subtle explanation of the direction of the thread. Maybe you can tell me exactly what a book is about by the title with out at least reading the summary on the back, but most of us can't. You can get a general idea nothing more.

 

So the thread went along about the guidelines. Back and fourth. It swing too much to call it, there for we cannot. So we are beyond that.

 

Offered were ways that I could place this cache as intended with out breaking the guidelines. We went from coring the ground to mashing it in wet ground, to, as long as you have permission, to just plain old, "Just place it and don't tell the reviewer what it is."

 

So the thread continued to evolve. At some point it seemed to become more about the cache not getting placed as apposed to weather or not it was to the guidelines. As so I followed the direction of the thread. So I offered up a way to place the cache as intended. (Let me break for a sec and explain what I mean by, "Place the cache as intended." I mean the cache would have to be placed as though it was a drain of some sort.) Spoke to a friend and got the idea for cementing it in some where that was already dug up was getting a side walk or some other cement structure if I could get permission.

 

At that point I get the old, "Just trying to find a loop hole"... No loop hole at this point, Just trying to find a way to place this cache to appease the masses. I Spent time on this, and it has been well made, certainly I am "intent" on placing it, But I have never been one to break the guidelines. I am sure I have proven that in the past.

 

Now as this thread has become a multitude of omnidirectional discussions about who knows what at this point relating to the guidelines pertaining to caches in the ground, and weather or not a the cache I have made can be placed as intended. Initially I was going to put it in the ground, too the guidelines as guidelines and figured because there are already many caches all over the place that have needed some sort of , "Object for digging" to place it, that there must be a reason these get published, and as I have seen in the past, mentions of permission to place cache as is on cache pages, I made a logical conclusion that as long as I had permission to place it int he ground, it would be okay. Not merely because "other people have placed similar", but because it is a logical conclusion that when you find a enough of these that mention permission to place the cache as is, that with permission it can be published.

 

All this has been confirmed by a good amount of comments that if you get permission etc etc...

 

so with people saying I am intent on placing the cache by finding a loop hole, I say I am intent on placing this cache, and because I am a stand up guy, I will do it honestly and within the guidelines, with full disclosure to the reviewer on how the cache is placed.

 

Now, we all know that there are many many many caches that have needed some sort of object used to dig to place the cache, most because it seems as though every one that has replied in this thread has seen one. Weather or not some reviewers out there passed these caches based on permission of land owners, or the CO's did not disclose the nature of the said caches, but they are out there and are getting place, and getting published.

 

I know for a fact as the guideline is written, if I were to place this in an existing hole it would meet guidelines. NO LOOP HOLE. There is not a guideline against that, or 90% of existing caches would be infringing on the guidelines. So placing an cache in an existing "______" (add what you will) is allowed, as long as it abides by the rest of the guide lines, which this would as long as I had permission. There for if some one was pouring a side walk, and already digging up their own property, and that owner said I could place the cache before the cement was poured, it would not be against the guidelines. That is NOT a loop hole. It is a placement within the guidelines, just as is putting the container in a block of cement as I intend to do now.

 

Over all it is a better idea more over then just finding a so called "loop hole". It is a cache, with a believable facade of some sort of drain/plumbing fixture, that I can freely move if I need too, and would require no site prep to place.

 

But the fact still remains, If there was an existing hole in the dirt. I did not dig, and was not made to accommodate this cache container, and I had permission if needed to put this container in that hole, it would not go against any guidelines.

 

However, any one who has said, "it is ultimately up to your reviewer" is correct, as even if I was by the book, if the reviewer felt there was some valid reason why the cache should not be published, they can question it, and if they find it should not be published, then it will not get published.

 

As far as the guidelines read, placing it in an existing hole in the ground would not break guidelines. If you consider coring the earth, digging, then it would be against the guidelines. You can define a way all day long and you can walk it all over the place as to what some thing is defined as.

 

So anyway. At this point all I care about is the fact that my container will get to be placed as intended, and will be by guidelines. I already have the go ahead from my local reviewer.

[Difficult Run]

So anyway. At this point all I care about is the fact that my container will get to be placed as intended, and will be by guidelines. I already have the go ahead from my local reviewer.

Good... and please show written permission from the landowner to place a Geocache/Concrete Block on the property.

I really want to see you place this "by the guidelines", as you've promised.

~ Mitch ~

[+thedeadpirate]

So anyway. At this point all I care about is the fact that my container will get to be placed as intended, and will be by guidelines. I already have the go ahead from my local reviewer.

Good... and please show written permission from the landowner to place a Geocache/Concrete Block on the property.

I really want to see you place this "by the guidelines", as you've promised.

~ Mitch ~

 

Ummm, why would written permission be required in order to be placed by the guidelines?

[Difficult Run]

So anyway. At this point all I care about is the fact that my container will get to be placed as intended, and will be by guidelines. I already have the go ahead from my local reviewer.

Good... and please show written permission from the landowner to place a Geocache/Concrete Block on the property.

I really want to see you place this "by the guidelines", as you've promised.

~ Mitch ~

 

Ummm, why would written permission be required in order to be placed by the guidelines?

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

"By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

~ Mitch ~

[+thedeadpirate]

So anyway. At this point all I care about is the fact that my container will get to be placed as intended, and will be by guidelines. I already have the go ahead from my local reviewer.

Good... and please show written permission from the landowner to place a Geocache/Concrete Block on the property.

I really want to see you place this "by the guidelines", as you've promised.

~ Mitch ~

 

Ummm, why would written permission be required in order to be placed by the guidelines?

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

"By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

~ Mitch ~

 

It says adequate, not written.

[GOF's Sock Puppet]

Now as this thread has become a multitude of omnidirectional discussions about who knows what at this point relating to the guidelines pertaining to caches in the ground, and weather or not a the cache I have made can be placed as intended.

 

And this is the reason a couple of us asked that we discuss this in a thread of its own. We have seen enough of these things to know where it will go. Thanks again for the change in venue.

[GOF's Sock Puppet]

So anyway. At this point all I care about is the fact that my container will get to be placed as intended, and will be by guidelines. I already have the go ahead from my local reviewer.

Good... and please show written permission from the landowner to place a Geocache/Concrete Block on the property.

I really want to see you place this "by the guidelines", as you've promised.

~ Mitch ~

 

Ummm, why would written permission be required in order to be placed by the guidelines?

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

"By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

~ Mitch ~

 

It says adequate, not written.

 

Assuming a concrete block with a pipe in it sunk in the ground I have to think nothing less than written would be adequate. If for no other reason than to protect the CO from a landowner that changes his mind and wants recompense for damages.

[Difficult Run]

So anyway. At this point all I care about is the fact that my container will get to be placed as intended, and will be by guidelines. I already have the go ahead from my local reviewer.

Good... and please show written permission from the landowner to place a Geocache/Concrete Block on the property.

I really want to see you place this "by the guidelines", as you've promised.

~ Mitch ~

 

Ummm, why would written permission be required in order to be placed by the guidelines?

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

"By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

~ Mitch ~

 

It says adequate, not written.

Agreed, but given the tenacity and wanton disregard for the spirit of the guidelines as demonstrated by the OP, a letter of permission would be in order.

(Especially if it involves a cast block of concrete).

 

~ Mitch ~

(Edited for punctuation)

Edited June 29, 2010 by Difficult Run

[+bittsen]

Agreed, but given the tenacity and wanton disregard for the spirit of the guidelines as demonstrated by the OP, a letter of permission would be in order.

(Especially if it involves a cast block of concrete).

 

~ Mitch ~

(Edited for punctuation)

 

It's a good thing I'm not the reviewer for the OPs area. I would scrutinize each cache submission a little extra and even be tempted to drive out to check them before pushing the submit button.

[knowschad]

No... this has absolutely nothing to do with what makes me happy or not happy. You started this thread, you chose the subject and the content. You clearly asked our opinion and then not only ignored the mass opionon, but argued against it, and all that I am doing is asking... "why did you ASK?" I am not familiar with the particular CCC posting that started this, and I really don't care. I don't even care if your hide is a violation or not, at this point. All I really care about is... WHY DID YOU IF YOU WON'T LISTEN TO THE ANSWERS?!? Geeze, dude... the writing is on the wall. I didn't write it, but I've got to ask why you can't see it.

Edited June 29, 2010 by knowschad

[+thedeadpirate]

Assuming a concrete block with a pipe in it sunk in the ground I have to think nothing less than written would be adequate. If for no other reason than to protect the CO from a landowner that changes his mind and wants recompense for damages.

 

Sunk in the ground, I would agree written permission would be required in order to be adequate.

 

The latest version, as I understand it, would be a large block of concrete with the pipe inside, but above ground and not at all permanent. Verbal permission would be more than adequate since there is nothing that runs contrary to the guidelines.

[+pmolan]

If you consider coring the earth, digging, then it would be against the guidelines. You can define a way all day long and you can walk it all over the place as to what some thing is defined as.

 

Not true. You forgot about the spirit. If you would have followed the spirit of the guidelines, you would have realized that this guideline does not apply to the beach. As uncovered on a previous thread, you CAN core the earth at the beach.

[Clan Riffster]

You can tell which people here have respect for others here.

You can also tell who has respect for the spirit of the guidelines.

 

Sure, okay whatever....

And who has respect for those seasoned cachers who offer reasonable advice to a specific question.

 

...back to the trusty old rubbermaid in the bush and the hide-a-key on the guardrail.

Just in case you were wondering, there's this huge area between caches that deliberately thwart the spirit of the guidelines, and caches that are lame. If you create a hide, "outside the box", so to speak, and it doesn't cut the mustard, you are not required to hide only crappy containers at that point. You would, technically still be allowed to hide a quality container. Just sayin'.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Thread title: "Would this be a violation of the rules?"

 

Why on earth did you start this thread if you are not willing to hear any answer except "no, its fine... go ahead"?

 

Because "this" in the title refers to the cache container I made and weather it would be against the guidelines to place.

 

A lot of people have said things like I am intent on placing it weather it is to guidelines or not. I would not place it if it is not allowed.

 

No, that is not what people are saying. What I, and others, are saying is that a cache could fall within the language of the guidelines and still violated the spirit of the guideline. In this case, the guideline doesn't exist to prevent hiders and seekers from using a pointy object to displace earth. The spirit of the guideline is to prevent a cache being placed in a manner that is going to cause concern with land managers and jeopardize the future of the game.

 

I realize that your original question was "would is be a violation of the rules" but what I've learned in 26 years participating in online forums is that while anyone can pretty much ask any question they want, they can't demand what the answer will be. What many are saying is that the more important issue should be whether a cache, as you originally described it, *should* be placed. If it doesn't adhere to the spirit of the guidelines, it should not, as it may jeopardize the future of the game. I'm not saying that the cache, in it's modified form would jeopardize the game, but that is the question that you should be asking yourself; not just if it violates the guidelines.

[+pmolan]

I have just been notified by my local reviewer that my cache can be placed in the way I now intend.

 

This is how it is going to be placed:

 

The sleeve of the cache is going to be set in a block of cement about 8" wide, and 12" high. I am going to use an 8" sonotube as a mold. The block will be free standing. It will not be mounted, buried or anchored in any way. It will just sit on the ground. The fake drain cache will be cemented into that. It can then be placed anywhere. I will find a place where something like this will look common place so it will not stand out. If needed permission will be sought. The cache will be able to be moved if need be.

 

Given: Weight of cement is 90lbs per cubic foot. You propose a block 8X8X12. Your block = 768cubic inches which is about 40lbs (minus the hollow area).

 

Its sad that the spirit of the guidelines will prevent you from digging a hole just large enough to plant a tomato plant, but will allow you to throw 40lbs of concrete in the woods somewhere

Edited June 29, 2010 by pmolan

[+bittsen]

I have just been notified by my local reviewer that my cache can be placed in the way I now intend.

 

This is how it is going to be placed:

 

The sleeve of the cache is going to be set in a block of cement about 8" wide, and 12" high. I am going to use an 8" sonotube as a mold. The block will be free standing. It will not be mounted, buried or anchored in any way. It will just sit on the ground. The fake drain cache will be cemented into that. It can then be placed anywhere. I will find a place where something like this will look common place so it will not stand out. If needed permission will be sought. The cache will be able to be moved if need be.

 

Given: Weight of cement is 90lbs per cubic foot. You propose a block 8X8X12. Your block = 768cubic inches which is about 40lbs (minus the hollow area).

 

Its sad that the spirit of the guidelines will prevent you from digging a hole just large enough to plant a tomato plant, but will allow you to throw 40lbs of concrete in the woods somewhere

 

You obviously didn't read the whole "new idea" very well.

[+pmolan]

You obviously didn't read the whole "new idea" very well.

 

I didn't think the actual words of what he had written meant anything, it was more the spirit of his post that I felt.

[+mchaos]

So anyway. At this point all I care about is the fact that my container will get to be placed as intended, and will be by guidelines. I already have the go ahead from my local reviewer.

Good... and please show written permission from the landowner to place a Geocache/Concrete Block on the property.

I really want to see you place this "by the guidelines", as you've promised.

~ Mitch ~

 

Ummm, why would written permission be required in order to be placed by the guidelines?

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

"By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

~ Mitch ~

 

It says adequate, not written.

Agreed, but given the tenacity and wanton disregard for the spirit of the guidelines as demonstrated by the OP, a letter of permission would be in order.

(Especially if it involves a cast block of concrete).

 

~ Mitch ~

(Edited for punctuation)

 

Okay, I do not need written permission, and it is not up to you any way Mitch. It is up to the reviewer, and I have been in dialog with him, and he said that the way I now intend to hide the container would not violate guidelines and would be published.

 

As some one did the math on the block, it would be about 40 lbs. That is not that heavy at all. I highly doubt that it would sink into the ground.

 

In no way shape of form would this be put into the ground. It would sit on top of the ground.

 

If I had no respect for the guidelines, I would have just placed the cache in the ground, not started a thread, or posted pics of it on the forum. As well I wouldn't disclose the nature of the cache to the reviewer.

 

As it is, I have found a way to place the cache so that it is perfectly by the guidelines. So, where then is the lack of respect for the guidelines it has be inferred that I have?

 

Edit: Also, where is the "wanton disregard for the guidelines"? I have not placed a cache in the ground ever. None of my caches that are published are breaking the guidelines or spirit of the guidelines. Asking a question about a cache, weather or not it is or isn't by guidelines, and then offering alternetives until a suitable one to the guidelines is found, is not wanton disregard for the guidelines, if anything it is a clear regard for the guidelines as I sought information from others before placing and the cache will now ultimately be placed within the guidelines.

 

One of my placements of which I posted a pic of as well, I fully disclosed the type of cache it was and how and where it was placed. The reviewer published it. Because it was on a green transformer box others suggested that I should have called the electric company and sought permission to put it there. So because I do have regard for the guidelines, and do not want to place a cache against them, I called the electric company and they said it was okay. Some did not believe me, so I went one step further. I emailed some one who spoke with a safety expert, and that person said it was okay. I copied the email on the post, and the peoples names along with contact information any one may contact. So I am sure by now I have proven that I do not have a disregard for the guidelines in any way. Let alone "wanton disregard".

 

Tell ya what Mitch, I will show you the written permission when ever feb 31st comes around...... I promise.

Edited June 29, 2010 by mchaos

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Let's ratchet back the vitriol everyone and keep the discussion civil. Thanks.

[Difficult Run]

Tell ya what Mitch, I will show you the written permission when ever feb 31st comes around...... I promise.

You need to work on your social skills my friend.

[+briansnat]

Tell ya what Mitch, I will show you the written permission when ever feb 31st comes around...... I promise.

 

Waaait just one minute. Feb. only has 28 days*

 

 

* - 29 in a leap year

[knowschad]

Tell ya what Mitch, I will show you the written permission when ever feb 31st comes around...... I promise.

Waaait just one minute. Feb. only has 28 days*

 

* - 29 in a leap year

That sounds like a MAGOR bug!!! "Oh, Pinehurst....!!!"

[+mchaos]

Tell ya what Mitch, I will show you the written permission when ever feb 31st comes around...... I promise.

 

Waaait just one minute. Feb. only has 28 days*

 

 

* - 29 in a leap year

 

Gee I think you are on to something.....

[+pmolan]

I know you are but what am I?

[swannn32]

I think that if we are supposed to go by "the rules" and so many people are opposed to someone placing a cache because it doesn't follow "the spirit of the rules" (which is their opinion) then the rules need to be more clearly defined.

 

This thread has been going on long enough for someone from Groundspeak to take notice & if they truly don't want someone to "remove dirt from the ground" to place a cache then they should change the rule phrasing to reflect that.

 

Everyone interprets things differently - some people call it breaking the rules while others say they are just following them exactly as stated. The rules need to be phrased so there is no room left to interpret them any different.

[swannn32]

I would love to see a picture of the final cement block you put this in. I think it will look too fake being a drain up off the ground. It would have been so much better if you could have done your original idea.

[+sbell111]

This thread has been going on long enough for someone from Groundspeak to take notice & if they truly don't want someone to "remove dirt from the ground" to place a cache then they should change the rule phrasing to reflect that.

Ummm, this thread had been dead over a month before you bumped it. Prior to that, it lived for a few pages over a few days. It truly doesn't appear to be a hot topic.