Reporting destroyed benchmarks

[+Team Og Rof A Klaw]

Official word from Deb Brown at NGS.

quote:

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Dear Mr. Og Rof A Klaw,

 

Technically, if disk is sheared off from its stem, the marker is destroyed because the precise elevation in particular would be affected. As well, it would be impossible to determine beyond a shadow of doubt that that stem that is not marked with a designation is in fact "that" mark.

 

For reporting on such stations, there are 2 ways to do so.

 

1) If a photo in JPEG format is available of the remnants of the marker then please send it to me via email with the PID and designation of the station and I will submit a destroyed report for it.

 

2) If no photo is available then use the online form to report on it using the "Poor/Disturbed" condition code and in the text portion of the form indicate its actual condition (ie. disk sheared off only stem remains).

 

I hope this answers your question adequately. Please let me know if you

need further clarification.

 

deb

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____________________________

- Team Og Rof A Klaw

All who wander are not lost.

[+baloo&bd]

Are you talking about reporting it here or NGS?

 

Reason I ask is I found a destroyed one yesterday (Towere has been tore down for some tiem).

 

I reported it here as destroyed. Is that where you meant

[+baloo&bd]

Who is Deb Brown?

 

Reason I ask is I found a destroyed one yesterday (Towere has been tore down for some tiem).

 

I reported it here as destroyed.

[+Team Og Rof A Klaw]

Deb Brown is the NGS employee to whom one reports destroyed benchmarks. I'd assume that the policy here is supposed to reflect NGS policy.

 

____________________________

- Team Og Rof A Klaw

All who wander are not lost.

[+beatnik]

quote:

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Originally posted by Team Og Rof A Klaw:

Deb Brown is the NGS employee to whom one reports destroyed benchmarks. I'd assume that the policy here is supposed to reflect NGS policy.

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I have searched for many marks that appear to be destroyed or I just couldn't find them. This one actually has evidence, I'll e-mail the photos I took to Deb and then change my log from a note to Destroyed or Not Found. I'm not sure which it should be since I don't have proof only a hole in the right spot.

 

Don't you think this was once a BM?

 

 

-beatnik-

[+beatnik]

Further update on submittal of destroyed marks. Simply a sheered rod or removed mark is not grounds for submitting a destroyed mark. You have to have proof of the disk stamp.

 

This is the reply I was sent from Deb regarding the above photo as well as others from the location.

 

quote:

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NGS policy restrains me from logging a station as destroyed without actual proof of the identity of the disk designation. So in this case, please use the online form to submit a NOT FOUND or POOR report and in the text portion of the form indicate it's actual condition - ie: not there!

 

Thank you,

 

deb

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-beatnik-

[+beatnik]

NA

[+jeff35080]

quote:

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Don't you think this was once a BM?

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IF the hole is the location where a disk was located, based on what other surveyors have posted here, I would be willing to be that a surveyor could still use the location.

 

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

[Z15]

I would report this as "NOT FOUND".

 

You did not find it destroyed, you have found evidence of where is might have been. I would put that in the report.

 

example of how I would report it. (in a few words as possible)

 

A THOROUGH SEARCH FAILED TO LOCATE THE SURVEY MARKER. A HOLE IN THE BRICK WALL WAS FOUND AT THE DESCRIBED LOCATION AND IT IS BELIEVED THE MARK HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM ITS SETTING. NO DISK WAS FOUND.

 

This way if someone should decide to put the disk back. there will be a record of what you found.

 

here is one I encountered at work, the airport kept moving the mark!!

 

SG0012'DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1962

SG0012'5.5 MI NE FROM HANCOCK.

SG0012'AT HOUGHTON COUNTY MEMORIAL AIRPORT IN THE NORTHWEST CORNER OF

SG0012'CONCRETE BASE FOR AIRPORT MEMORIAL PLAQUE. 14 FEET NORTH OF

SG0012'NORTHWEST CORNER OF THE AIRPORT TERMINAL BUILDING. A STANDARD

SG0012'DISK STAMPED G 75 1962 CEMENTED IN THE BASE OF THE PLAQUE.

SG0012

SG0012 STATION RECOVERY (1968)

SG0012

SG0012'RECOVERY NOTE BY LOCAL ENGINEER (INDIVIDUAL OR FIRM) 1968

SG0012'RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION.

SG0012

SG0012 STATION RECOVERY (1975)

SG0012

SG0012'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1975

SG0012'A NEW AIRPORT TERMINAL BUILDING HAS BEEN CONSTRUCTED AND THE OLD

SG0012'TERMINAL BUILDING IS NOW OCCUPIED BY THE PECKHAM ENGINEERING CO.

SG0012

SG0012 STATION RECOVERY (1996)

SG0012

SG0012'RECOVERY NOTE BY MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 1996 (BRT)

SG0012'RECOVERY NOTE BY MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT TRANSPORTATION (MPR) 1996

SG0012'--CAUTION--CAUTION--CAUTION--CAUTION THE CONCRETE BASE AND THE

SG0012'MEMORIAL PLAQUE HAVE BEEN RELOCATED TO THE NEW AIRPORT TERMINAL

SG0012'BUILDING (DEDICATED IN 1970) . THE EXACT DATE THIS WAS DONE IS UNKNOW

SG0012'BUT IN ALL PROBALBILITY AFTER THE 1975 RECOVERY. THE DISK CANNOT BE

SG0012'REMOVED FROM THE PLAQUE BASE WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF DOING

SG0012'EXTENSIVE DAMAGE TO THE MONUMENT. NOT SUITABLE FOR SATELITE

SG0012'OBSERVATIONS DUE TO THE NATURE OF THE SETTING.

SG0012

SG0012 STATION RECOVERY (2001)

SG0012

SG0012'RECOVERY NOTE BY MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 2001 (MPR)

SG0012'THE AIRPORT MEMORIAL PLAQUE HAS BEEN RELOCATED AGAIN, IN 2000. NEW

SG0012'BASE, NO SURVEY DISK. CONSIDER THIS MARK DESTROYED.

 

[This message was edited by elcamino on August 16, 2003 at 05:50 AM.]

[+Colorado Papa]

quote:

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Originally posted by beatnik:

 

Don't you think this was once a BM?

 

-beatnik-

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I agree wholeheartedly that you have a good example of a destroyed BM. However, I've come across similar ones and Deb informs me that they have to be reported as in poor condition.

 

Therefore, if you found the location exactly like the desciption but no disk, take credit that you found it in poor condition which really is more accurate than saying you never found the location.

 

I don't see how NGS can have a poor condtion catagory for a location that is missing the disk and we have to log a "NO fIND". Until things get standardized, take a FOUND credit.

 

And that's my opinion.

 

1950 Surveyor

[+GeckoGeek]

quote:

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Originally posted by Colorado Papa:

I don't see how NGS can have a poor condtion catagory for a location that is missing the disk and we have to log a "NO fIND". Until things get standardized, take a FOUND credit.

 

And that's my opinion.

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Actually, I think I understand the NGS's position.

 

1) A station can only declared as destroyed if and only if there is absolutely no doubt that it's destroyed. For a disk that would require positively identifying the disk and noting that it's out of position. With the photograph all we know for sure is a spot that could have held this particular disk. It would require a number of measurements to positively identify this hole as being the hole that held the disk.

 

2) But we still have a hole that is small enough that it still may mark the location. That is, we still have a position even if it is unlabeled. If this hole can be positively identified, then a new disk could be inserted. So in this case it would seem that "poor" is the proper designation. (Keep in mind some BMs are labeled as "copper bolt" with no disk.)

 

3) Not founds are generally not taken as destroyed because there are a number of reasons that someone couldn't find a station that is in fact still there.

 

4) In this particular situation, it seems the only way to get the station destroyed is to prove that the building was demolished. In that case there is no doubt that the position has been lost even if the disk is never discovered.

 

So for NGS purposes, this is "poor".

 

Arrrrgh! I'm starting to think like a government worker!!!

[+Colorado Papa]

Now here is a bad example of "FOUND" by two different cachers and not being reported to NGS.

KK0185

 

1950 Surveyor

[Z15]

quote:

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don't see how NGS can have a poor condition category for a location that is missing the disk and we have to log a "NO fIND".

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They have to handle it this way otherwise there would be marks reported as destroyed when the person doing the report may not even been in the right 40. Right now there are a lot of marks reported as not found that are really still there hiding. Letting someone (often inexperienced as recovery) make a judgment on weather some mark is destroyed without any proof of such, would result in many marks removed from publication or never searched for again.

 

Nothing precludes you from entering an opinion in the recovery notes as to weather you believe the mark is destroyed or what.

 

I know of one mark in my area that was believed to have been destroyed many years ago. 2 of our previous survey crew could not find it. The USGS notes even have it marked as destroyed in 1950's BUT we found it 30 yrs later buried about 1 ft below ground and the elevation checked right on. It was near US-41 and we had the plans that showed a 2 ft grade lift and C/L alignment shift for the road. When the landscaped the roadside the mark got covered. If one pulled the recorded distance from the C/L of Us41 and had no idea the original road was some 50 ft East, you would conclude it was gone. The exact location was shown on the old 1955 highway plans of which only microfilm copes were available.

[+GeckoGeek]

quote:

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Originally posted by Colorado Papa:

Now here is a bad example of "FOUND" by two different cachers and not being reported to NGS.

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=KK0185

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Indeed. Anyone contact these searchers? I would but I'm about to travel to the land of few caches, no benchmarks and slow dial-up connections.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

This kind of thing is also a good example of why I'd like to see the geocaching "benchmark count" either include all not-found and destroyed, or be replaced by list of all benchmark categories' counts.

 

Some people tend to be more interested in their count than reporting accuracy. Clearly monument KK0185 should have been reported as Destroyed, as opposed to Found or Not-found. If this change were made in geocaching, more people would be likely to fix their reports too.

[Z15]

I found one just like that one day searching for marks to use in a GPS project. The local property owner was watching me as I was looking for it but he did not come over. It was on highway ROW. We some time later finishing up the project filling out recovery notes I mentioned to the boss that complete post was lying there. A couple days later he told the guys to stop and throw the post in the truck and bring it back here. They came back and said, its not laying on the ground, someone dug a hole and put in back? So we had a an impostor out there and had to do dig it out. They was nothing within miles to use to reset it and the advisor said to go get it. The property owner knocked it out plowing snow and replaced it when he saw us poking around.

[+GeckoGeek]

quote:

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Originally posted by Black Dog Trackers:

Some people tend to be more interested in their count than reporting accuracy. Clearly monument KK0185 should have been reported as Destroyed, as opposed to Found or Not-found. If this change were made in geocaching, more people would be likely to fix their reports too.

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Unless you see something I missed I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. They probably didn't know. After all, they found the disk right?