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E.T. Highway Power Trail


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Here's my thing, I would love to get a group of cachers out to go do that series over a few days, but after what happened with the Trail of the Gods, I'd be scared to book any travel arrangements knowing that the whole series could get archived like the last one.

Good point. It would be nice to hear from one of the organizers that they have permission for all of these.

 

That is definitely a good point. It looks like we're making plans to go out there after GeoWoodstock (with another cacher who turns out to be an old coworker, small world), but we're going to be driving I think; but even so, it would be good to know.

 

I was in Vegas last week, but only did a minor amount of caching. I did drive out to the beginning of the "Trail of Fears" power trail in the desert near Jean, NV. There are signs all over the freakin' place (I forget the specific wording...private property? authorized access only? something like that...) there that basically say "you're not allowed to be here". I think it's power company land? (would make sense since it's along a series of power lines.) If the other Mojave series are placed the same way, it doesn't look good.

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The scuba attribute is now the de-facto work-around for the lack of a power trail attribute?

 

Kudos for at least attempting to implement a filter, but for the people that may not find it particularly intuitive to filter scuba caches in the desert, that might result in PQ with unintended results.

 

 

 

The pessimist in me would like to start the betting at one month, four days from publication to archival.

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The scuba attribute is now the de-facto work-around for the lack of a power trail attribute?

Keep in mind where this particular power trail is located.

 

Right, I get that. I mean, if you have to pick an attribute to use then go with the one that makes the least sense and has the least chance of being applicable. "A" for effort.

 

 

...but at the same time, unless you get the memo you're going to have to see the power-trail on your PQ first then learn about the nonsensical work-around.

 

What's next? Using the "Hunting" attribute for nano caches in urban settings?

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The lack of postings regarding this trail is bothersome.

 

I rather miss the trail reports and bragging rights.

 

I do believe that the detractors of Power Trails have, through their derision and ridicule, driven Power Trail Veterans underground.

 

To the veterans of Power Trails, stand tall and proud in the face of this closed minded blatant discrimination.

 

 

" My name is XXXXXXX and I am a Power Trail Cacher " Remember the man / woman in the glass

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The lack of postings regarding this trail is bothersome.

So, post away! Actually, it seems to me that there are considerably fewer power-trail bashing posts here than in previous threads of a similar nature. I'd like to hear more from those that have done it, as well.
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Hi, ..... my name is Ventura_Kids and I'm a powercacher. B)

I like the idea of finding more than a dozen caches in one day. ;)

 

I'd love to try this powertrail.

It is quite far from my house, and it looks like it's quite desolate out there.

Perhaps if someone slowed down long enough to take a dozen pictures along the way, they could post a trail report somewhere.....and post a link to it here.

 

I hope to get up there some day. If I do....I'll take pics and make a trail report....and add some links to my trail report :P

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Hi, ..... my name is Ventura_Kids and I'm a powercacher. B)

I like the idea of finding more than a dozen caches in one day. ;)

 

I'd love to try this powertrail.

It is quite far from my house, and it looks like it's quite desolate out there.

Perhaps if someone slowed down long enough to take a dozen pictures along the way, they could post a trail report somewhere.....and post a link to it here.

 

I hope to get up there some day. If I do....I'll take pics and make a trail report....and add some links to my trail report :P

 

Pssssst VK ... TGRR & PIP did 1022 in a most impressive time ... waiting for you to hit the desert.

 

The cache reports have moved me from the cooler months into July, just on the edge of when mother nature turns the oven up to full blast ... fingers crossed that she doesn't hit the blast furnace button early.

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The lack of reports is a bit surprising. Wasn't it just a few months ago that a New! World! Record! was being trumpeted every week or so? Hasn't anybody done all 1,000? I'm seriously curious.

 

All seriousness aside, has the Power Trail fad waned already? Is it now the Beanie Baby of geocaching? What will be the new fad, the Silly Bands of the caching world?

 

On a local forum someone brought up the idea of filling a barrel with 500 film cans, each containing a log, and allowing 500 finds on the same cache. No need to drive anywhere at all.

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Yes someone has gone over the 1000 and in a remarkably quick time.

 

I miss the testosterone / estrogen ... claims and counter claims. Yes I saw female powercachers on the TOTG and they were fierce competitors.

 

I don't think power caching trails have waned, I think folks might be reluctant to post because doing so might subject the posters to flame throwers. Not a good idea to go into flames without suitable protection. Perhaps there is a back-log of nomex fire suits and that might be a factor in the limited postings from the ET Trail. LOL

 

Hmmmmmm 500 cachhes in one barrel, that could represent the " greening " of the activity. LOL

 

Geeeeeeee, maybe the armchair cachers are ahead of their time. LOL

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Yes someone has gone over the 1000 and in a remarkably quick time.

 

I miss the testosterone / estrogen ... claims and counter claims. Yes I saw female powercachers on the TOTG and they were fierce competitors.

 

I don't think power caching trails have waned, I think folks might be reluctant to post because doing so might subject the posters to flame throwers. Not a good idea to go into flames without suitable protection. Perhaps there is a back-log of nomex fire suits and that might be a factor in the limited postings from the ET Trail. LOL

 

Hmmmmmm 500 cachhes in one barrel, that could represent the " greening " of the activity. LOL

 

Geeeeeeee, maybe the armchair cachers are ahead of their time. LOL

Dang it. I'd told myself I'd stay out of this.

But the caches in a barrel thing wouldn't work because of saturation.

However I did ponder a series of mysteries that all shared the final location, but again saturation rules. Or maybe the reverse? A bunch of mysteries all start at the same place but the finals are all set out around it, just far enough apart.

My mental image is of a yellow brick road type situation.

 

*This isn't intended to be an attack or a promotion of power trails or power... puddles? (as the above might be called).

** Also to my local reveiwer I have no intention of doing this so when you see my multi ready to go you'll know it isn't one of these.

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I'd like to hear from someone who didn't want to stop every 528 feet but couldn't stand the idea of driving by 1000 caches. How often did he stop?

 

I did 55 of them until I got bored. I then drove about five miles, found a few of the older caches and then did another 50. This all took about 2.5 hours

 

My goals were to break 100 finds, (my previous in a day was 97), and to get to the state park campground about 90 miles east of E.T 1, before sundown. There were two caches in the SP that really wanted to get.

 

So here is my rant: I understand cut and paste logs, in fact I used just that for the 105 ET caches that I found. I see no point in creating 105 unique logs for 105 identical caches, hidden in an identical manner. What bothers me is when people use the same cut and paste to log caches that have nothing to do with the power trail. Caches that have been in place for over five years.

 

One log was very similar to 'This was one of 1050 we did in three days along the ET Series, thanks Clay for putting this cache out'. The log was posted on a cache that a young man had put out several years ago to memorialize his brother, who was killed after hitting a cow in his Jeep, at that spot.

 

I will say this, about 75% that found Mike's Memorial Cache during those three days took the time to write a proper log. Some even brought small stones to lay at the nearby marker, as Mike was a Geologist. Kudos to them. The other 25%, shame on you.

Edited by Don_J
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Yes someone has gone over the 1000 and in a remarkably quick time.

 

I miss the testosterone / estrogen ... claims and counter claims. Yes I saw female powercachers on the TOTG and they were fierce competitors.

 

I don't think power caching trails have waned, I think folks might be reluctant to post because doing so might subject the posters to flame throwers. Not a good idea to go into flames without suitable protection. Perhaps there is a back-log of nomex fire suits and that might be a factor in the limited postings from the ET Trail. LOL

 

Hmmmmmm 500 cachhes in one barrel, that could represent the " greening " of the activity. LOL

 

Geeeeeeee, maybe the armchair cachers are ahead of their time. LOL

 

Personally, I think that 95% of the people that were out there don't even know how to get to the forums, nor do they care.

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Yes someone has gone over the 1000 and in a remarkably quick time.

 

 

OK,..... I just can't sit here and let this one get past me.....

 

NO record was set for a one day run. B)

 

A one day record would require the participants to find and log each cache without any creative modifications of the generally acceptable rules.

THAT did not happen yet.

 

But I'm certain someone will honestly and fairly find all 1000 of those caches in one day.....perhaps you? :P

Edited by ventura_kids
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Hi VK,

 

I am too old and slow for record setting ... Just going because it is there and experience a few more items on my Bucket List before the man comes to measure me for the wooden suit.

 

Although I can live vicariously through the experiences of others some times you just have to go and check it out.

 

Last summer I traveled through the ET Trail area while returning from Philmont Scout Ranch and we were simply churning miles to get kids and gear back to their destinations. This time I will be stopping. ( more frequently I suspect )

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The lack of postings regarding this trail is bothersome.

 

I rather miss the trail reports and bragging rights.

 

I do believe that the detractors of Power Trails have, through their derision and ridicule, driven Power Trail Veterans underground.

 

To the veterans of Power Trails, stand tall and proud in the face of this closed minded blatant discrimination.

 

 

" My name is XXXXXXX and I am a Power Trail Cacher " Remember the man / woman in the glass

 

Look, I don't care if you do the power trails or not, but can we stop calling them "veterans". It's a geocaching power trail, not a war.

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Thanks for your input and I support your right to have input.

 

I served and was shot up and have a little purple item for display, so I will exercise a modicum of freedom of speech. I believe that I have earned it.

 

Again, thanks for your input. Further, if you served, I thank you for your service.

Edited by humboldt flier
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Thanks for your input and I support your right to have input.

 

I served and was shot up and have a little purple thingy so I will exercise a modicum of freedom of speech. I believe that I have earned it.

 

Again, thanks for your input. Further, if you served, I thank you for your service.

 

Hmmm what about older athletes.

 

Athletes? Fierce competitors? Give me a break.

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I do believe that the detractors of Power Trails have, through their derision and ridicule, driven Power Trail Veterans underground.

Maybe they all just realized how utterly silly the whole notion is? :P

Maybe they all suddenly developed good taste, and decided that hours of mindnumbing monotony no longer floats their boats? ;)

Maybe the space aliens finally realized they have a baited field to hunt from? :lol::ph34r:

 

...filling a barrel with 500 film cans, each containing a log, and allowing 500 finds on the same cache...

I'm sure some numbers cachers would love that. B)

 

'This was one of 1050 we did in three days along the ET Series, thanks Clay for putting this cache out'.

Sounds like monotony has become contagious? :lol:

Perhaps the type of person who would find joy in repeating an identical cache hunt 1000 times isn't capable of being unique? :P

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Yes someone has gone over the 1000 and in a remarkably quick time.

 

 

OK,..... I just can't sit here and let this one get past me.....

 

NO record was set for a one day run. B)

 

A one day record would require the participants to find and log each cache without any creative modifications of the generally acceptable rules.

THAT did not happen yet.

 

But I'm certain someone will honestly and fairly find all 1000 of those caches in one day.....perhaps you? :P

 

Reading the logs, it seems that Alamogul and his team are claiming 917 caches between 5:15am on Saturday and 1:30am on Sunday. Most of the people are claiming over 1000 caches in a three day period.

 

It's my understanding that some of the areas will take longer with your feet on the ground than others. I got lucky with the two sections that I picked. I honestly did 52 caches in an hour. I did 10 in a row while sitting in my car seat and only swinging my left foot out to the ground, for balance. I would say that I was stopped for 20 seconds at each of those caches. Also, since I was FTF on 78 caches, they were all virgin logs. Easy to extract and replace.

 

What I did was an experience. I don't think that I would be able to do it hour, after hour, after hour, but I wanted to try it at least once. If I ever do something like this again, I will need another cacher with me just to break the monotony. Like I said in my other post, after an hour, I was bored and didn't want to do it any longer.

 

Steve, if you are going to be at our next Meet n' Great on Fallbrook in a few weeks, I'll give you the entire lowdown. I have no doubt that you and Jim could easily claim a record.

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Yes someone has gone over the 1000 and in a remarkably quick time.

 

 

OK,..... I just can't sit here and let this one get past me.....

 

NO record was set for a one day run. B)

 

A one day record would require the participants to find and log each cache without any creative modifications of the generally acceptable rules.

THAT did not happen yet.

 

But I'm certain someone will honestly and fairly find all 1000 of those caches in one day.....perhaps you? :P

 

Define the universal rule to be used for making these judgments wrt the achievement by others: 'honestly' and 'fairly'.

 

Gots to make certain that the next World's Record is 'clean' now don't we?

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The lack of postings regarding this trail is bothersome.

 

I rather miss the trail reports and bragging rights.

 

I do believe that the detractors of Power Trails have, through their derision and ridicule, driven Power Trail Veterans underground.

 

To the veterans of Power Trails, stand tall and proud in the face of this closed minded blatant discrimination.

 

 

" My name is XXXXXXX and I am a Power Trail Cacher " Remember the man / woman in the glass

 

Look, I don't care if you do the power trails or not, but can we stop calling them "veterans". It's a geocaching power trail, not a war.

 

Of course they're Veterans. They're at war with intolerant hata's!! Personally, I'm a proud Veteran. I'm not talking about my 22 years in the Army Reserve, I mean I did 41 caches .15 miles apart on a rural Canadian Rails to Trails. I would like to take this opportunity to thank myself for my service. B)

 

***This post is a lighthearted attempt at diffusing any tension.

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I'd like to hear from someone who didn't want to stop every 528 feet but couldn't stand the idea of driving by 1000 caches. How often did he stop?

 

I did 55 of them until I got bored. I then drove about five miles, found a few of the older caches and then did another 50. This all took about 2.5 hours

 

My goals were to break 100 finds, (my previous in a day was 97), and to get to the state park campground about 90 miles east of E.T 1, before sundown. There were two caches in the SP that really wanted to get.

 

So here is my rant: I understand cut and paste logs, in fact I used just that for the 105 ET caches that I found. I see no point in creating 105 unique logs for 105 identical caches, hidden in an identical manner. What bothers me is when people use the same cut and paste to log caches that have nothing to do with the power trail. Caches that have been in place for over five years.

 

One log was very similar to 'This was one of 1050 we did in three days along the ET Series, thanks Clay for putting this cache out'. The log was posted on a cache that a young man had put out several years ago to memorialize his brother, who was killed after hitting a cow in his Jeep, at that spot.

 

I will say this, about 75% that found Mike's Memorial Cache during those three days took the time to write a proper log. Some even brought small stones to lay at the nearby marker, as Mike was a Geologist. Kudos to them. The other 25%, shame on you.

 

I think that if folks ran PQ's with the scuba attributes they would never have seen Mike's Memorial Cache, nor would they have seen the cache honoring Sgt. Stevenson ... I will be stopping at both sites to pay my respects.

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I'd like to hear from someone who didn't want to stop every 528 feet but couldn't stand the idea of driving by 1000 caches. How often did he stop?

 

I know I couldn't do it. When on family trips and I see a cache pop up on my Nuvi my wife has to grab the steering wheel to stop me from veering in it direction.

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The lack of postings regarding this trail is bothersome.

 

I rather miss the trail reports and bragging rights.

 

I do believe that the detractors of Power Trails have, through their derision and ridicule, driven Power Trail Veterans underground.

 

To the veterans of Power Trails, stand tall and proud in the face of this closed minded blatant discrimination.

 

 

" My name is XXXXXXX and I am a Power Trail Cacher " Remember the man / woman in the glass

 

Give me a couple of weeks B)

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The lack of postings regarding this trail is bothersome.

 

I rather miss the trail reports and bragging rights.

 

I do believe that the detractors of Power Trails have, through their derision and ridicule, driven Power Trail Veterans underground.

 

To the veterans of Power Trails, stand tall and proud in the face of this closed minded blatant discrimination.

 

 

" My name is XXXXXXX and I am a Power Trail Cacher " Remember the man / woman in the glass

 

Give me a couple of weeks :laughing:

 

You are missing the obvious here. All these caches were placed by aliens.

 

All cachers have been taken to the mothership and probed, then made to forget their experience. Happens all the time. :laughing:

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The aliens might be seeking revenge, after all there is a cache in Rachel with a name something like " Aliens Taste Like Chicken "

 

The aliens probably think that creating a logo of the Colonel that can be seen from space is an example of the inferiority our species. But the good people of Rachel don't seem to mind anything that brings people through their area. The owner of the A'le'inn seems friendly to both aliens and cachers alike - and has stories about both.

 

We had a nice day out that way. My noncaching spouse was interested in the area and we got to see the famous "black mailbox." She decided that we should do a certain number of the ET caches - I might have stopped sooner with the repetition wearing me down. We met other cachers. My wife wondered how I could drive by so many caches that were obvious from the road as we drove into Rachel for lunch. Then we headed to the Valley of Fire and environs for some beautiful earthcaches - every one had the "wow factor" - and got back to Vegas for a great Mexican dinner at Viva Mercados. Today we watch professional darts and see whether Simon Whitlock can beat 15-times world champion Phil Taylor.

 

We might confuse repetitious caching with "power caching" but Phil is the real "Power."

 

If you come out to the ET area, don't forget to look up from time to time. I have some pictures to post with my logs when I get around to that. It took me a few minutes to figure out how to log caches that have only a number, but there is always a story to tell.

Edited by mulvaney
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The " Black Mailbox ":

 

" The famous Black Mailbox on Hwy. 375 is located between mile markers 29 & 30. It is often mistaken for the mailbox of Area 51. In reality it belongs to a local rancher who owns the only ranch in Tikaboo Valley. Since it is the most prominent landmark along that part of the E.T. Highway it has become a popular place for skywatchers searching the night skies over Area 51 for mysterious lights.

The original Black Mailbox was a regular black country mailbox. After the owner found his mail regularly searched for letters to Area 51 and supposedly even with bullet holes in it, he replaced the mailbox with a more solid white mailbox with a padlock.

But Area 51 Folklore still refers to it as the " Black Mailbox ".

 

The original box was auctioned off to a UFO fan in 1996 for $1,000.00 "

 

It is my understanding that in 2003 there was a second mailbox added where the aliens could receive their mail

Edited by humboldt flier
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The " Black Mailbox ":

 

" The famous Black Mailbox on Hwy. 375 is located between mile markers 29 & 30. It is often mistaken for the mailbox of Area 51. In reality it belongs to a local rancher who owns the only ranch in Tikaboo Valley. Since it is the most prominent landmark along that part of the E.T. Highway it has become a popular place for skywatchers searching the night skies over Area 51 for mysterious lights.

The original Black Mailbox was a regular black country mailbox. After the owner found his mail regularly searched for letters to Area 51 and supposedly even with bullet holes in it, he replaced the mailbox with a more solid white mailbox with a padlock.

But Area 51 Folklore still refers to it as the " Black Mailbox ".

 

The original box was auctioned off to a UFO fan in 1996 for $1,000.00 "

 

It is my understanding that in 2003 there was a second mailbox added where the aliens could receive their mail

 

Seriously, you should attribute that to the web page that you copied it from.

Just saying...

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The ET Highway presents a unique logistics problem. One can either try to set a record, personal or otherwise, of caches per hour or day or one can see how long it takes to find all 1000 caches. The two are inconsistent because some of the caches are harder to find than others. (Unless the geotrails have solved that issue.) If one is just going for speed, one would skip a cache after not being able to find it within a specified time, say 45 seconds. However, skipping a cache means one can't claim to have found all 1000 caches. OTOH, finding every cache could significantly impair a speed record.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There are lots of ways of having fun while caching. One is going to interesting spots. Another is going on a challenging hike or climb. Yet another is finding a cache that is really well hidden or cleverly disguised. However, the whole bit about driving out to the middle of nowhere with a bunch of other cachers, telling stories and having a beer and seeing how quickly or how many caches one can find, can be fun. I sure would not do this often, but I sure had a blast doing it this time. I'm hoping that if I do another power trail, it will be on a bicycle or on foot...just to see what I can do.

 

And, BTW: for anyone who wants to flame me, to REALLY show me your disdain, there is a rocker switch on the back of your computer, flipping it will REALLY show me how much you disdain me.

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The ET Highway presents a unique logistics problem. One can either try to set a record, personal or otherwise, of caches per hour or day or one can see how long it takes to find all 1000 caches. The two are inconsistent because some of the caches are harder to find than others. (Unless the geotrails have solved that issue.) If one is just going for speed, one would skip a cache after not being able to find it within a specified time, say 45 seconds. However, skipping a cache means one can't claim to have found all 1000 caches. OTOH, finding every cache could significantly impair a speed record.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There are lots of ways of having fun while caching. One is going to interesting spots. Another is going on a challenging hike or climb. Yet another is finding a cache that is really well hidden or cleverly disguised. However, the whole bit about driving out to the middle of nowhere with a bunch of other cachers, telling stories and having a beer and seeing how quickly or how many caches one can find, can be fun. I sure would not do this often, but I sure had a blast doing it this time. I'm hoping that if I do another power trail, it will be on a bicycle or on foot...just to see what I can do.

 

And, BTW: for anyone who wants to flame me, to REALLY show me your disdain, there is a rocker switch on the back of your computer, flipping it will REALLY show me how much you disdain me.

 

I have no desire to flame you. Just wanted to say that there is no rocker switch on the back of my computer.

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Isn't area 51 in Roswell, New Mexico?

 

Roswell is famous for being a UFO crash site. Area 51 is a very secret base near Groom Lake Nevada. According to some, we have used that base to try to reverse engineer alien technology. According to others, we have developed or tested our own technology there. But it's over the mountains from the ET highway. Nobody gets close to it.

 

Area 51 became famous when Bob Lazar told about his work there - described aliens and the technology we were using - and took a group to watch strange lights. Lazar's credibility is a whole different thread. Some believe him. Others do not. But the people in Rachel will tell you about seeing strange lights overhead, along the highway. Or about having strange visitors, other than cachers.

 

The state of Nevada decided to capitalize on matters by naming the road "The Extraterrestial Highway." Thus, this series of caches.

Edited by mulvaney
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The " Black Mailbox ":

 

" The famous Black Mailbox on Hwy. 375 is located between mile markers 29 & 30. It is often mistaken for the mailbox of Area 51. In reality it belongs to a local rancher who owns the only ranch in Tikaboo Valley. Since it is the most prominent landmark along that part of the E.T. Highway it has become a popular place for skywatchers searching the night skies over Area 51 for mysterious lights.

The original Black Mailbox was a regular black country mailbox. After the owner found his mail regularly searched for letters to Area 51 and supposedly even with bullet holes in it, he replaced the mailbox with a more solid white mailbox with a padlock.

But Area 51 Folklore still refers to it as the " Black Mailbox ".

 

The original box was auctioned off to a UFO fan in 1996 for $1,000.00 "

 

It is my understanding that in 2003 there was a second mailbox added where the aliens could receive their mail

 

Rightly so, however, being away from the rigors of academia for so many years and senility setting in I did an ooooopsie.

 

If I could ever figure this new fangled Mac world out it would have been substantially easier to play the link game.

 

Me bad & senile as well.

 

Seriously, you should attribute that to the web page that you copied it from.

Just saying...

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I did this trail. For three days I worked it alone and it was tedious. Then I was joined by friends from Vegas and we finished the ones I still needed in another two days. There was a lot of honking and waving as I passed folks doing the ones I had already grabbed. I observed serveral different tactics for efficiency including two folks sitting on the open tailgate and alternating who got out for "this one" while another person drove. I can testify that all three were within 30 feet of the log when it was signed. I do have a different tolerance level for ethics on a trail like this, however. I hope no one tries to outdo this one but you can bet it will have to happen in western deserts with miles of public lands.

 

I had feared that the congestion was going to be like "geowoodstock" and not fun at all. I was wrong. Over a hundred miles of caches makes avoiding congestion a snap.

 

The work and planning that went into this monster was spectacular. These guys even gave the caches a "scuba" attribute to assist in searches and the Alien Head provided a nice stroll in the desert. It is a "hall of fame" shoe-in for the planning, preparation and execution.

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The work and planning that went into this monster was spectacular.

Step 1: Find a long road.

Step 2: Drive down said road tossing a film can out the window every time your odometer clicks.

Step 3: Hit "Mark".

Step 4: Type a single cache page and copy/paste it to every single cache.

Step 5: Repeat as needed, or until you run out of film cans.

 

Maybe we have different definitions of "Spectacular"? :grin:

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The work and planning that went into this monster was spectacular.

Step 1: Find a long road.

Step 2: Drive down said road tossing a film can out the window every time your odometer clicks.

Step 3: Hit "Mark".

Step 4: Type a single cache page and copy/paste it to every single cache.

Step 5: Repeat as needed, or until you run out of film cans.

 

Maybe we have different definitions of "Spectacular"? :grin:

 

If I read this correctly, the ET Trail is not on your must do list.

 

I wait in an ... tis ... i ... pation for confirmation.

 

Have a good day Riff

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I just wonder if one or two of these 1,000 caches got muggled but end up being signed as a find by people not keeping track of which cache was missing. Say the owner would pull #458 out of the series yet see how many kept signing it as a find from just mass logging these.... Oh, that would be mean...

 

Can't ever see a series like this coming to the SouthEast but it's neat for those who enjoy these kind of things.

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