Is this a find?

September 11, 2002

I went looking for benchmarks today, and 2 of them were located in the center of a very busy street under 8" metal covers. My question is this, if I can see the cover can I log these as found?

There is never really a time when it's safe to just stand in the middle of this street. Any comments?

1k · September 11, 2002

I did my first benchmarks last weekend, and wanted to do PD0709, which is a lighthouse. I attempted to walk near to it at low tide, but closest I got was about 2000'. While it was visible to me, I still decided to post a note because as far as I was concerned I wasn't "there".

It sounds like you were closer, but the actual mark was not in sight. I myself would not log it.

Some days you're the dog, and some days you're the hydrant.

1.3k · September 11, 2002

... and did, in at least a couple of places, though not in the middle of a street.

At HV1832, in Lafayette Park, across the street from the White House, I figured it might draw some unwanted attention from the various security personnel if I were to be seen opening up manhole covers.

In another case, the survey manhole was on the lawn of an apartment building, and I didn't think it was appropriate to go onto private property and open the thing up.

In both cases, I felt I was not stretching to claim the find, but in some other cases, where the mark was behind a locked gate or fence and I couldn't actually see it, I did not log it as 'found.'

I don't believe there is an official policy on these, so you have to do what you're comfortable with.

September 11, 2002

Thanks for the input, I'll keep them logged as finds. Since I was within 20-30 feet that'll be close enough. Just like horseshoes and hand grenades, right?

September 11, 2002

How is it possible that you think you can log a find without actually seeing the mark?

This is from the benchmark page... In case you missed it.

quote:
What do I do when I find one?
If you have a digital camera, we ask that you take a picture of the disk, and several pictures of the area around the disk. You can even use a compass to mark your photo so people who see the benchmark can view the area from your point of view.

Unless your just in it for the numbers. Anyway seeing the mark is a find, seeing a cover where the mark is said to be is not a find.

September 11, 2002

Unless you actually see the mark itself and vcerify it with the markings, it's not a find. How are you sure that it's the right one?

I have an area where there's six marks in a block, USGS, city and private. While I was trying to sort them out, I was sure of a mark a couple of times until I was able to see it, then I learned that it was yet another unlisted mark.

1.3k · September 12, 2002

Maybe we need to establish a formal set of rules for these hard cases.

Although this is not a particularly competitive activity, and there are no published rankings by number of marks found, it would be nice if we were all consistent.

On the other hand, it's only a game....

September 12, 2002

depending on where you live removing the cover and taking a picture may not be a good idea.

even surveyors here in nl need permission to remove the covers. if you a caught tampering with the covers you could be charged with trespassing and vandalism!!? further to this some of the covers here are tacked down with brazing rods to thwart vandals. i would suggest that you contact local authortis before you tamper with what is considered private property.

again i must say that that is how it works here.

September 12, 2002

Upon further reflection, I think I'll just log the problem benchmarks with a note, not a find.

Of course I'm in it for the numbers (but only on a personal level), but like Team 5 Oh said, if I can't see the mark, I also can't be sure the cover I see is really for the benchmark registered on the site.

September 12, 2002

I consider a monument box find as a 'find'. For the benchmarking hobbyist, that's usually the best you can do (considering it may not be safe or legal to open the box). No, you don't visibly verify the mark is where it's supposed to be, but you found where it technically should be. To the NGS, no it wouldn't be a find...but to the hobbyist, I think it should be. Otherwise it's completely unattainable (aside from safety and legal issues).

1.3k · September 15, 2002

I personally would not log it as a find unless I actually SAW the mark. For a lighthouse, I may only have to come within a couple of miles to claim a find (since the lighthouse IS the mark), for ones like mentioned above I may be within a few inches and still NOT be able to claim a find. It MIGHT be inside the box, but then again, it might not.

My own question:

Yesterday I thought I had recovered JV3385, an azimuth mark. After returning home and looking closer, I'm not so sure. I also found JV4669, the related triangulation station. It mentions in it's description that RM3 (the AZ mark) was replaced in 1973 (it was found destroyed), though the listing for the azimuth mark itself doesn't record it's destruction or replacement. Should I claim the AZ mark itself even though I didn't find the original one AS LISTED (mentioning these circumstances), or just mention it when I log the triangulation station.

I think it would be two finds, since I clearly found the disk, and have other documentation linking it to the original one. Maybe it should count extra, since I went to the trouble to figure all this out!

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

1.3k · September 15, 2002

I personally would not log it as a find unless I actually SAW the mark. For a lighthouse, I may only have to come within a couple of miles to claim a find (since the lighthouse IS the mark), for ones like mentioned above I may be within a few inches and still NOT be able to claim a find. It MIGHT be inside the box, but then again, it might not.

My own question:

Yesterday I thought I had recovered JV3385, an azimuth mark. After returning home and looking closer, I'm not so sure. I also found JV4669, the related triangulation station. It mentions in it's description that RM3 (the AZ mark) was replaced in 1973 (it was found destroyed), though the listing for the azimuth mark itself doesn't record it's destruction or replacement. Should I claim the AZ mark itself even though I didn't find the original one AS LISTED (mentioning these circumstances), or just mention it when I log the triangulation station.

I think it would be two finds, since I clearly found the disk, and have other documentation linking it to the original one. Maybe it should count extra, since I went to the trouble to figure all this out!

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

September 15, 2002

Greg

The NGS data sheet for Montalto not only states that the original azimuth mark was destroyed, it also shows, in the directional data section, the precise direction to both the old one and the new one, so its clear that the new one is in a different location. Therefore, technically at least, it would be impossible to claim having found the old one. Incidentally, the new azimuth mark and the old reference marks all have their own PID, so I suppose you could report each one as a separate find, although they do not seem to be cataloged separately. I cannot explain the reason for this, its just one of the many inconsistencies to be found in the system.

1.3k · September 15, 2002

I knew when I posted, that I could count on surveytech to come through. Now if I just had his number so I could call him from the field

The new azimuth mark is not included in the GC version of the database, so although I can recover it, I can't count it as a 'find'.

Surveytech, could you clarify a few things regarding triangulation marks and their reference marks?:

The station mark is the main one, that all the others point to.

Reference marks: In my experience RMs 1 & 2 are usually fairly close to the station mark.

Azimuth mark: In my experience, another name for RM3 and much further away from the station mark. May not be visible from ground level at the station disk.

Thanks in advance! By clarifying these things, I hope to be able to recover stations and their reference/azimuth marks, even when they aren't all listed individually on the GC site.

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

1.3k · September 15, 2002

I knew when I posted, that I could count on surveytech to come through. Now if I just had his number so I could call him from the field

The new azimuth mark is not included in the GC version of the database, so although I can recover it, I can't count it as a 'find'.

Surveytech, could you clarify a few things regarding triangulation marks and their reference marks?:

The station mark is the main one, that all the others point to.

Reference marks: In my experience RMs 1 & 2 are usually fairly close to the station mark.

Azimuth mark: In my experience, another name for RM3 and much further away from the station mark. May not be visible from ground level at the station disk.

Thanks in advance! By clarifying these things, I hope to be able to recover stations and their reference/azimuth marks, even when they aren't all listed individually on the GC site.

Greg

N 39 54.705'

W 77 33.137'

September 15, 2002

Correct on all counts, except that there are sometimes as many as 4 or 5 reference marks. The azimuth mark was never given a number in the old days, that has only been done in recent years.

2k · March 28, 2003

(Just trying to stir up a little more discussion).

I'll be in Cleveland OH this weekend where there are quite a number of monument boxes in the center of busy roads (MB3242, for instance.)

I have no doubt that I can find this.

However, unless I'm willing to stand in the middle of the road and pry the cover off the box to see the metal rod that is the benchmark, I don't think it's a find.

Sure, I made the effort to go there. And there's not much doubt that I'd find a metal rod in the box.

But it seems our main rule has to be that if you can't see what is described as the benchmark, even if you can see the cover, even if you are "sure" that it's there, it's still not a find.

We just have to accept that some benchmarks aren't reasonably found, even though we believe them to exist.

Any disagreement?

1.5k · March 28, 2003

There are some marks that you are just going to have to forget about.

Box's in the middle of the road is one of them. I worked for the MDOT for 31 yrs and can tell you some of these monument box require a jack hammer to remover the cover and that often damages it. The DOT requires a permit to work in the highway and you need all kinds of safety equipment, signs, flashing lights, hard hats etc. You can be fined for doign this, it endagers you and the public travelling the roads. We were urged to report anyone and anybody working on state highways who were not properly equiped, the state could be held liable if we overlooked these instances. Also we had one PS from a consulting company killed working near US-2. He was walking down the shoulder and he was hit from behind. STAY OUT OF THE ROAD

I have to agree with the others, if you don't see the actual survey marker as described, you did not find it.

March 28, 2003

I thought that one of the uses of the benchmarks is to confirm the coordinates of the benchmark. So if you are ~2 miles from a lighthouse then you can't verify the coords.

Just my thought on the matter, but I haven't found any yet. So what do I know.

kc

row, row, row your boat

2k · March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Tubby Rower:
I thought that one of the uses of the benchmarks is to confirm the coordinates of the benchmark. So if you are ~2 miles from a lighthouse then you can't verify the coords.

kc

row, row, row your boat

I do record and log the coordinates of my finds, but I'm not really "confirming" anything. Most of the benchmarks around here have "scaled" coordinates, with an error of +/- 6 seconds, so I think even my handheld is more accurate than the database.

And I'm not sure how close to the lighthouse you'd have to be to "find" it...

March 28, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by beejay&esskay:
However, unless I'm willing to stand in the middle of the road and pry the cover off the box to see the metal rod that is the benchmark, I don't think it's a find.

Before you consider the traffic a permanent obstacle to recovery, check the site out at 3:30 AM. You may have a couple of minutes to take a peek.

-WR

"Besides physical caches, we have VIRTUal and VIRTUeless."

March 28, 2003

beejay&esskay

from the NGS history page:

quote:
As soon as I had taken a few measures, I called Doctor McLean and
Hubbard to let them see the heliotrope at Mount Helena,

192 miles off, and the longest line ever observed over in the world.

NGS History

So that may give us some leeway.

March 28, 2003

Enjoyed the story, for those interested, a heliotrope is a mirror device, which catches the sun, providing, as you can imagine, a superb target over extreme distances. Another device, to catch the moon at night, called a selenotrope, was also used. I hope this story helps everyone to get some idea of the arduous work these points represent.

By the way, you can never be entirely sure things are what they appear to be, even in the case of seemingly immovable objects like lighthouses. They recently moved Cape Hatteras lighthouse, for example. The lighthouse survived the move just fine, but the NGS point was obviously destroyed in the process, making it no longer findable.

[This message was edited by survey tech on March 28, 2003 at 03:35 PM.]

March 28, 2003

nope. not a find. i did something similar once, and later found that i'd been mistaken. from now on i vow to read the brass mark before i claim it as a find. i really don't know how to handle the lighthouse issue, however. i guess get as close as possible, while in the spirit of actually hunting.

March 29, 2003

This is directed to BRDAD, IRT PD0709. A comment on "Is this a find." If you read the description of the benchmark closely, you will see that the benchmark is actually the "FINIAL" atop the lighthouse. I have seen benchmarks which were lights atop towers, etc. As long as you can see what is specified as the benchmark, you can log it as found. They are not all, inscribed brass discs.

March 29, 2003

Dustyjacket has a great web site that shows some of the variety of things that have been used as Benchmarks. Please take a look at:

Benchmarks & Witness posts

March 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by survey tech:

By the way, you can never be entirely sure things are what they appear to be, even in the case of seemingly immovable objects like lighthouses. They recently moved Cape Hatteras lighthouse, for example. The lighthouse survived the move just fine, but the NGS point was obviously destroyed in the process, making it no longer findable.

]

I remember seeing this on tv. It was quite a project. I think they even had to make a short, temporary railway to accomplish this feat. I don't remember any mention of a benchmark, but this was before I became interested in them.

March 30, 2003

Last week I found one of the new marks which are a rod placed in a tube with a metal cover on top. The mark was on the side of a country road so I opened the cover to look inside. The rod was there. The cover had the name and date stamped in the top. Unfortunately this one wasn't in the data base. I would assume I could count one like this without opening the cover and seeing the actual mark because the name is stamped on the cover. Correct?

Kissimmee Kouple

1k · March 30, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by JohnnyDingo:
This is directed to BRDAD, IRT PD0709. A comment on "Is this a find." If you read the description of the benchmark closely, you will see that the benchmark is actually the "FINIAL" atop the lighthouse. I have seen benchmarks which were lights atop towers, etc. As long as you can see what is specified as the benchmark, you can log it as found. They are not all, inscribed brass discs.

Ya, I know, it was just my decision. If I could barely see a disk 50 feet on the other side of a gate, I would not log it as a find either. Just my interpretation of a find. If I could have gotten to within say, 100 feet of that lighthouse I would havbe been more likely to log it as a find; I was just not satisfied with how close I had gotten to it.

On the road of life there are people in cars and people getting hit by cars.

2k · April 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by WaldenRun:

Before you consider the traffic a permanent obstacle to recovery, check the site out at 3:30 AM. You may have a couple of minutes to take a peek.

-WR

I assume you couldn't find the control for

That's what I want to do...stand in the middle of a Cleveland intersection in the dark. (My father who lives in the area says there was significant construction in the last year in that intersection...I didn't visit to see if the box was there, since I wasn't going to list it as a "find" in any case.)

I was never going to do that...so the ex-DOT employees can relax. I have seen "finds" listed where the evidence is a photo of the cover of the box and it just didn't seem right...

But I'm deleting all the "iron boxes on roads" from my list of benchmarks to search for. Since we're not even to 3% of benchmarks found, we've got plenty of safe ones to look for...

Is this a find?

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