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Fire Tacks... damage to public or private property?

Flintstone5611
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Dr. House

+Dr. House

Posted
Posted

I have noticed a bit of hypocrisy when it comes to night caches that is somehow overlooked by the fake hippie types. The ones that think that walking on wild grass is damaging the eco system and now cry when they see a baby seal (but only since they started geocaching)!

 

Why is it 100% acceptable to people to place fire tacks in trees, but if a person were to nail something into a tree or screw an apparatus into a tree then they immediately are taken to task by cachers and reviewers alike?

 

Let's hear the weigh in!

 

I personally have zero issue with anything placed in any tree/pole/post/guardrail (tack, nail, lag bolt, etc.) provided it is OK with the land owner/manager of said property. The point at which that person/body declares it damaging, whether I agree or not with that individual or entity's point of view, is when I consider it unacceptable. Clearly, those aren't necessarily the guidelines set out by Groundspeak, simply my opinions on this matter, and at the end of the day, I would respect any suggestions or direction set out by volunteer reviewers in the placement of my cache since it is just a game.

 

Were you looking at placing a night cache and wanted to make sure your placement was on the up and up?

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tozainamboku

+tozainamboku

Posted
Posted

It's a tack. You push it in with your finger. It penetrates a 1/4 inch at most. A nail you drive with a hammer and a screw with as screwdriver. They penetrate much further and leave larger holes when removed. The tack can be removed by hand and it leaves a tiny hole that is likely undetectable. The point of the guidelines is to not deface property, private or public. If you can remove something without leaving a detectable mark you haven't defaced it.

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drfred

+drfred

Posted
Posted

when I lay awake late at night with my windows open, I can hear the sad moans of all the trees with tacks stuck in them(but I'm sure they glisten nicely in the moonlight).

 

Sure its just a little tack but put one in your arm and leave it there...how's it feel?

 

Hey, I know some trees that like to have tacks and nails stuck in them (and they really like the way they glisten in the moonlight). Why can't anyone stick up for the pain as pleasure crowd? Try thinking of that while lying awake with your windows open! :unsure::lol:

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Minimike2

+Minimike2

Posted
Posted (edited)

Nails and screws = the worst nightmare of loggers. They tend to destroy the value of the tree due to the risk of damaging a very expensive saw blade. Lumber mills won't accept trees harvested inside a town for this very reason.

 

A tack is no threat due to the small length and diameter of the metal part.

Edited by Minimike2
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SooMukwas

+SooMukwas

Posted
Posted

when I lay awake late at night with my windows open, I can hear the sad moans of all the trees with tacks stuck in them(but I'm sure they glisten nicely in the moonlight).

 

Sure its just a little tack but put one in your arm and leave it there...how's it feel?

 

Hey, I know some trees that like to have tacks and nails stuck in them (and they really like the way they glisten in the moonlight). Why can't anyone stick up for the pain as pleasure crowd? Try thinking of that while lying awake with your windows open! :):D

 

Hehe! I like where your head is at! I'm going to fire tack myself and hide in the woods tonight and point towards a cache. There is no guideline about defacing humans(as a clue), is there? :lol:

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Flintstone5611

+Flintstone5611

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Nails and screws = the worst nightmare of loggers. They tend to destroy the value of the tree due to the risk of damaging a very expensive saw blade. Lumber mills won't accept trees harvested inside a town for this very reason.

Finally an argument for nails and screws in trees. What you are talking about is the practice of 'spiking' and it is done by fundamentalists to preserve the trees. They would argue that it better to impose the presence of this large iron spike (quite large at times) into this tree rather than see it get cut down. Remember they are a merry band of treehuggers like us, and yet...

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Flintstone5611

+Flintstone5611

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Another interesting observation that people choose to make is that since fire tacks are small they leave a "undetectable" effect on the tree. I have come across many night caches that have upwards of ten tacks on a single tree! Were they fun, absolutely! Are the trees fine, most definitely! I am asking that if you are allowed to make unlimited 1mm holes in a tree, what is the harm with putting one 3mm hole in a tree? I am not trying to draw negative attention to those caches (they were awesome), but doesn't the argument lose objectivity if we have the same effect on the environment but do it in a different way? Or Can we disagree with someone elses method although it is no better or worse than our own in the long run?

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Dr. House

+Dr. House

Posted
Posted

Another interesting observation that people choose to make is that since fire tacks are small they leave a "undetectable" effect on the tree. I have come across many night caches that have upwards of ten tacks on a single tree! Were they fun, absolutely! Are the trees fine, most definitely! I am asking that if you are allowed to make unlimited 1mm holes in a tree, what is the harm with putting one 3mm hole in a tree? I am not trying to draw negative attention to those caches (they were awesome), but doesn't the argument lose objectivity if we have the same effect on the environment but do it in a different way? Or Can we disagree with someone elses method although it is no better or worse than our own in the long run?

 

10 tacks?!? Why those unlawful buggers... how dare they? :)

 

[/sarcasm]

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northernpenguin

+northernpenguin

Posted
Posted

Another interesting observation that people choose to make is that since fire tacks are small they leave a "undetectable" effect on the tree. I have come across many night caches that have upwards of ten tacks on a single tree! Were they fun, absolutely! Are the trees fine, most definitely! I am asking that if you are allowed to make unlimited 1mm holes in a tree, what is the harm with putting one 3mm hole in a tree?

 

How about a 6 foot hole in a tree? Doubt 10 firetacks would hurt this sucker:

 

220px-CarRedwoodLeggett01-05.jpg

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drewmm

drewmm

Posted
Posted

Another interesting observation that people choose to make is that since fire tacks are small they leave a "undetectable" effect on the tree. I have come across many night caches that have upwards of ten tacks on a single tree! Were they fun, absolutely! Are the trees fine, most definitely! I am asking that if you are allowed to make unlimited 1mm holes in a tree, what is the harm with putting one 3mm hole in a tree? I am not trying to draw negative attention to those caches (they were awesome), but doesn't the argument lose objectivity if we have the same effect on the environment but do it in a different way? Or Can we disagree with someone elses method although it is no better or worse than our own in the long run?

 

Do you really even need this explained? :)

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drewmm

drewmm

Posted
Posted

Do you really even need this explained? :)

Yes new guy. That is why I opened this forum!

 

10 tacks will each create a tiny hole. Upon removal of the tack, those holes will all disappear quickly. The tree doesn't heal one hole and then move on to the others. Also, no matter how many tacks you put in, you won't penetrate past the outer bark.

 

One screw, on the other hand, creates a larger hole that takes a lot longer to heal and penetrates further into the tree.

 

Will either kill a tree? Unlikely, unless you use a screw that's made of a metal that's poisonous to trees. But screws are uglier and more defacing of a tree. Tacks, on the other hand, are normal in woods, leave less of a mark, and aren't unusual.

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Panther&Pine

+Panther&Pine

Posted
Posted

 

10 tacks?!? Why those unlawful buggers... how dare they? :)

 

[/sarcasm]

I know, I know, but we are talking about defacing property. What is worse, one screw set into a tree or seeing a tree speckled with reflectors?

 

The mental image I get from this is a "BeDazzled" tree.

 

Personally I don't have an opinion on the Fire Tacks- what you do to your own property is your business, not mine. If you use them on land that you don't own then you need permission- if the land manger doesn't care then neither do I. But I also don't like Fire Track Caches, so I don't really have an issue.

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JohnX

JohnX

Posted
Posted

About the copper nail myth. First, where do you buy copper nails? They don't exist. Also, I have a problem with invasive trees. Hawthorn to be specific, a member of the Medlar species. I asked an agriculture professor at a local university if there was some herbicide I could use to kill the trees. "Yes" he said, "It's called a bulldozer."

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northernpenguin

+northernpenguin

Posted
Posted

About the copper nail myth. First, where do you buy copper nails? They don't exist. Also, I have a problem with invasive trees. Hawthorn to be specific, a member of the Medlar species. I asked an agriculture professor at a local university if there was some herbicide I could use to kill the trees. "Yes" he said, "It's called a bulldozer."

 

Could be useful. Most bulldozers have some retroreflective markings on them - and you can normally follow the trail the bulldozer left quite easily :)

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tozainamboku

+tozainamboku

Posted
Posted

You are assuming, perhaps based on comments made in the forums, that there is a rule that says firetacks are OK but nails are not OK. There is no such rule. There is no guideline that says what you can or cannot put in a tree. The guideline is simple

Caches may be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not exhaustive):

.....

Caches that deface public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method.

....

The reviewers have tended to interpret "deface" as meaning that you can't easily remove the cache, clue, or log to restore the property to the condition it was in before the cache was placed. So attaching caches with magnets is acceptable, while using screws or some kind of strong adhesive is not. Of course you might be able to repair the damage from screws or other attachement depending on the object you put the screws in, but this involves additional costs.

 

As stated above, the issue is often with the perception of land managers or property owners. If they percive a cache as causing damage to property that is not easily repaired this is not good. Reviewers may have to put themselves in the shoes of the land manager when a cache is reported and decided if this is defacing or not.

 

It's been explained that the firetacks are easily removed and leave no mark while nails and screws need a tool to remove and leave noticeable marks. I have no idea if a reviewer would find one or two tacks acceptable but 10 not. I also have no idea if a reviewer might look at a case where a bird house cache is attached with a small nail and decide that in that situation the land manager would not see it a defacement. Perhaps the cacher has indicated in a note to the reviewer that the land manager has approved of the nail to hold up the cache.

 

One can always split hairs. This is one reason we have guidelines and not rules. Reviewers can use judgement as to whether or not the cache should be archived.

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northernpenguin

+northernpenguin

Posted
Posted (edited)

How about making trees really expensive: http://www.flickr.com/groups/moneytree/

oh yeah, i know a tree like that too. only that it was still alive when people were hammering the coins into it. eventually it did kill the tree. (it was a much smaller tree though.)

 

... or not. (referring to the copper didn't kill the tree theory)

Edited by northernpenguin
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northernpenguin

+northernpenguin

Posted
Posted
... or not. (referring to the copper didn't kill the tree theory)

i don't remember how many of those coins were coppery and how many weren't. i think the physical damage to the tree is a more likely COD.

 

Yeah, that's more likely.

 

On the other hand, it's one time you can hide a magnetic keyholder on a tree. :)

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SooMukwas

+SooMukwas

Posted
Posted

Do you really even need this explained? :)

Yes new guy. That is why I opened this forum!

 

10 tacks will each create a tiny hole. Upon removal of the tack, those holes will all disappear quickly. The tree doesn't heal one hole and then move on to the others. Also, no matter how many tacks you put in, you won't penetrate past the outer bark.

 

One screw, on the other hand, creates a larger hole that takes a lot longer to heal and penetrates further into the tree.

 

Will either kill a tree? Unlikely, unless you use a screw that's made of a metal that's poisonous to trees. But screws are uglier and more defacing of a tree. Tacks, on the other hand, are normal in woods, leave less of a mark, and aren't unusual.

 

That's like writing my name on a public wall with a small black marker and someone else spraypainting their name in big letters on the same wall. Which one of us defaced the wall?

 

* Caches that deface(any degree?) public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method. *

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knowschad

knowschad

Posted
Posted (edited)

That's like writing my name on a public wall with a small black marker and someone else spraypainting their name in big letters on the same wall. Which one of us defaced the wall?

 

* Caches that deface(any degree?) public or private property, whether a natural or man-made object, in order to provide a hiding place, a clue or a logging method. *

Ummm... I dunno... the 2nd one? :) Edited by knowschad
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Pork King

+Pork King

Posted
Posted

So, let's take a look at Vermont, where every spring, maple syrup makers drive hundreds of taps into maple sugar trees to collect the sap. Yes, they pull them out, but haven't seen where they put a healing plug in the tree. And, they are much bigger than a nail or screw. Haven't seen all those maples dying off.

And, don't get me started on woodpeckers :)

 

**Convoluted and overly dramatic analogy warning**

Let's take a look at New York City, where people are murdered/mugged/raped/assaulted, yet people still live there, and carry money everywhere. Must not have much effect... Does that mean it's ok for geocachers to do these things?

 

Now on to a little more serious...

 

People do things all the time that are perfectly legal that may not be best for the environment. Tuna fishermen kill dolphins in their nets.

The maple trees? (side note, plugging the hole actually impairs the tree's ability to heal) Most maples' growths' are stunted and syrup production lessens over time by the tree having to expend its energy healing those tap holes. So they do it, but it's not good for the tree.

 

As geocachers, we are also stewards of the environment, especially the area in which which we play. That means trying to impact the surroundings as little as possible, no matter how much other people (or even animals, i.e. woodpeckers) do. I cringe everytime I see a "geotrail" where it looks a herd of buffalo recently migrated.

 

Firetacks, in most cases, don't penetrate past the bark of the tree, they can be easily placed and removed by hand, leaving little to no mark of where they've been. Screws and nails penetrate much deeper, causing harm to the tree. Enough to kill it? Not usually. But why take the chance?

 

Thanks for letting me throw my pennies out there

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GOF and Bacall

GOF and Bacall

Posted
Posted

So, let's take a look at Vermont, where every spring, maple syrup makers drive hundreds of taps into maple sugar trees to collect the sap. Yes, they pull them out, but haven't seen where they put a healing plug in the tree. And, they are much bigger than a nail or screw. Haven't seen all those maples dying off.

And, don't get me started on woodpeckers :)

 

**Convoluted and overly dramatic analogy warning**

Let's take a look at New York City, where people are murdered/mugged/raped/assaulted, yet people still live there, and carry money everywhere. Must not have much effect... Does that mean it's ok for geocachers to do these things?

 

Now on to a little more serious...

 

People do things all the time that are perfectly legal that may not be best for the environment. Tuna fishermen kill dolphins in their nets.

The maple trees? (side note, plugging the hole actually impairs the tree's ability to heal) Most maples' growths' are stunted and syrup production lessens over time by the tree having to expend its energy healing those tap holes. So they do it, but it's not good for the tree.

 

As geocachers, we are also stewards of the environment, especially the area in which which we play. That means trying to impact the surroundings as little as possible, no matter how much other people (or even animals, i.e. woodpeckers) do. I cringe everytime I see a "geotrail" where it looks a herd of buffalo recently migrated.

 

Firetacks, in most cases, don't penetrate past the bark of the tree, they can be easily placed and removed by hand, leaving little to no mark of where they've been. Screws and nails penetrate much deeper, causing harm to the tree. Enough to kill it? Not usually. But why take the chance?

 

Thanks for letting me throw my pennies out there

 

Don't throw pennies. Some of them are still made of copper and copper can kill trees.

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Pork King

+Pork King

Posted
Posted

The real answer went unnoticed back around post 56. The problem with nails in trees has nothing to do with the health of the tree.. it has to do with the health of the guy who cuts the tree and gets a nail or a saw blade planted in his skull.

 

Excellent point that I totally overlooked. As a former tree cutter, I can attest that hitting a nail in a tree with a saw is bad news. It can cause the saw to kick back.

 

And, yes, I DO eat bacon. :)

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Flintstone5611

+Flintstone5611

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Posted

The real answer went unnoticed back around post 56. The problem with nails in trees has nothing to do with the health of the tree.. it has to do with the health of the guy who cuts the tree and gets a nail or a saw blade planted in his skull.

 

Excellent point that I totally overlooked. As a former tree cutter, I can attest that hitting a nail in a tree with a saw is bad news. It can cause the saw to kick back.

 

And, yes, I DO eat bacon. :)

Is it normal to cut down trees at chest or head height?

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brslk

+brslk

Posted
Posted (edited)

The real answer went unnoticed back around post 56. The problem with nails in trees has nothing to do with the health of the tree.. it has to do with the health of the guy who cuts the tree and gets a nail or a saw blade planted in his skull.

 

Excellent point that I totally overlooked. As a former tree cutter, I can attest that hitting a nail in a tree with a saw is bad news. It can cause the saw to kick back.

 

And, yes, I DO eat bacon. :)

Is it normal to cut down trees at chest or head height?

 

You do understand that the person that cuts the tree down in the forest is not the last person to put a saw to it right?

How many 40' pieces of round lumber with bark on it do you see at home depot?

 

Not only do the machines in the sawmill mill them down to usable lumber but there is also a yard crew that cut the raw lumber into sizes that fit into the milling machines.

Edited by brslk
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SooMukwas

+SooMukwas

Posted
Posted

The real answer went unnoticed back around post 56. The problem with nails in trees has nothing to do with the health of the tree.. it has to do with the health of the guy who cuts the tree and gets a nail or a saw blade planted in his skull.

 

Excellent point that I totally overlooked. As a former tree cutter, I can attest that hitting a nail in a tree with a saw is bad news. It can cause the saw to kick back.

 

And, yes, I DO eat bacon. :)

Is it normal to cut down trees at chest or head height?

 

The worst was when I was chopping down a tree with my tomahawk and hit a knot which sent a sharp fragment of flint flying into the Fakawi medicine man's backside. It was an accident, but I was never granted another vision quest again.

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Flintstone5611

+Flintstone5611

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You do understand that the person that cuts the tree down in the forest is not the last person to put a saw to it right?

How many 40' pieces of round lumber with bark on it do you see at home depot?

 

Not only do the machines in the sawmill mill them down to usable lumber but there is also a yard crew that cut the raw lumber into sizes that fit into the milling machines.

Really! wow, they should make those pieces of equipment automated so that they can handle large volume and protect the operator...wait they do!

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