Where are the enhancements that WE have asked for?

[knowschad]

Sometimes I feel like Charlie Brown just after Lucy has jerked the football away from him at the last minute.

 

Release after release after release, I read the release notes with eagerness, each time hoping to finally see some of the totally practical, doable, desirable, and popular ideas that have been suggested in this forum finally come to fruition, only to find, instead, "features" that have never been asked for, like "My Friends" (now without number of finds or hides), "Link your Trimble Account", "Upgrade Another Player", "Geocaching with Twitter", "Your GPS", etc. etc. etc.

 

I forget which of you said that you had been wanting to do this... sorry, but its been a long time... but one of you Lackys said that you agreed that, when I set filters in my geocaching maps like, "Ignore Mystery Caches", and then select "Build Pocket Query", that the filters I set should be reflected automatically in the pocket query page. Not exactly a tough thing to do, given the time. But if instead, you've been asked by your bosses to create a "I Like Your Cache" link with Facebook... well... there goes my request.

 

That is only one example. I remember a thread, now lost to the archives, that had a host of helpful changes just to the maps alone. I challenge the powers that be to dredge that thread up and point out to us how many of our suggestions have been listened to and implemented. Look, guys and gals at Groundspeak... it does take some time and some effort for us to think these things through and to suggest them here. It kind of hurts when we see our suggestions ignored for months or years and instead see things like this "Lost & Found" concept, that we seem to all hate, using up the developer's time.

 

OK, thanks for the rant. I'm sure that the next release will be all about me.

[+Raine]

I could always dredge through the forums looking for a single time you've not had something unhappy to say about what I / we've done.

 

I guess I can have a rant every now and then...

[+dfx]

i'm still crying for the PQ1K fail. so far no word whether anything will be changed or not.

[+Minimike2]

Did the dog lie?

[knowschad]

I could always dredge through the forums looking for a single time you've not had something unhappy to say about what I / we've done.

 

I guess I can have a rant every now and then...

That's not fair, Raine, and I think that you know it. I and we have posted some very good and thoughtful suggestions that have been ignored, release after release. I am vocal when I see those good usability suggestions ignored, but I'm not a complainer in general, and I don't appreciate being cast in that light. I started this thread in an attempt to say "What about US?" and I think that I've been through enough releases to do that.

[+Chrysalides]

I guess I can have a rant every now and then...

Feeling overworked and under-appreciated?

 

It must be tough every time after a new release, with what seems like more complaints than praises. It can't be helped, unhappy people make more noise.

 

I need a few more days to fully digest the changes, but let me say I appreciate the work you guys do. Thanks for fixing the field notes time zone bug. There's still a minor problem with DST (I mentioned it in the other thread) but I can live with that - easy enough to work around for now.

 

I find the criticism of the dog rather unfair as well. He's definitely not a complainer.

[knowschad]

I guess I can have a rant every now and then...

Feeling overworked and under-appreciated?

 

It must be tough every time after a new release, with what seems like more complaints than praises. It can't be helped, unhappy people make more noise.

 

I need a few more days to fully digest the changes, but let me say I appreciate the work you guys do. Thanks for fixing the field notes time zone bug. There's still a minor problem with DST (I mentioned it in the other thread) but I can live with that - easy enough to work around for now.

 

I find the criticism of the dog rather unfair as well. He's definitely not a complainer.

 

Good point about my timing, Chrysalides. I probably chose a sensitive time to bring that up, but I'm not sure there is any better time than after a release. I also DO appreciate the work they do. As with many of us, I am also a software developer (have been for 20+ years) and I do know how it works. I also know that marketing generally trumps all other considerations, including useability, and that is probably a better way to word what I am trying to say.

 

I find the criticism of the dog rather unfair as well.

Thanks for that support. Very much appreciated!

[+Raine]

I and we have posted some very good and thoughtful suggestions that have been ignored, release after release

 

There are only so many developers working here and with the amount of suggestions/ideas/personal concepts on our lists, we can't get to them all in a three week sprint.

 

Knowschad, you started playing this game/hobby/life right after I started working here. You've seen the site evolve as long as I have. It went from an army of one to the small team we have now. It's gone from "lets work on a project till it's done and release" to our not so agile sometimes scrum process.

 

There's passion behind the things we do and we want to make a product that everyone can use. Sadly sometimes we've made wrong decisions but we've tried to correct those if possible (look how collectibles were handled today).

 

In these past five years I've gotten to know what people will start to be more vocal in this forum then others after a release, and Knowschad, you just happen to be one of them. So being a developer for 20+ years and if you've dealt with users in a medium like this you should know what it's like on this side of the monitor.

 

I find the criticism of the dog rather unfair as well.

 

Agreed.

 

-Raine

[Keystone]

Today's update included language localization, something that's been asked for by geocachers outside the USA for years. Imagine yourself as a veteran German or French geocacher who's been using the site in English for five or more years. Would you be happy today?

 

Whether an update is viewed by a user as being responsive to user needs depends in part on what that user wants the most. Because geocachers come from all countries and all backgrounds and all technology tools, no single update will ever please everyone.

 

I remember well when the site updates only came a few times each year. With its expanded developer staff and the "sprint" philosophy for update cycles, Groundspeak is now making incremental improvements pretty much every month.

 

See what next month brings!

[+Raine]

Thanks Keystone

 

-Raine

[+geowas]

Today's update included language localization, something that's been asked for by geocachers outside the USA for years. Imagine yourself as a veteran German or French geocacher who's been using the site in English for five or more years. Would you be happy today?

 

Not to complain, it is definitively an o.k. step to have the website in different languages now, and I must say (for the German part) the translation is good, so fine with that. As a veteran German geocacher I'm indifferent about the change, though, not happy, because I used the site for years in English, which is ok for me. And for now I'll keep it in English to avoid the mix of German and English texts (yes, I understand, work in progress).

 

BUT.... if I recall correctly the discussions from earlier this year (and from before that), there were more voices asking for internationalisation than for localisation. What does it help a Czech cacher if he can now get the menus and some pages in Czech language, but if he/she is still not able to log in his language, due to missing Unicode support in that place?!?

[+Snicker666]

WORD knowschad! This is tragedy in harmony. Waste of programming time with some collectible TB and GC thingy, like it button with no protection of privacy, no find counts on friends any more.

[Keystone]

some collectible TB and GC thingy,

Fans of trackables have been asking for such a feature for quite a long time. Groundspeak promised the concept of a "collectible," literally years ago.

like it button with no protection of privacy,

Fans of Facebook have been asking for better integration with that popular website.

no find counts on friends any more.

The "hide count" on that friends list page has been wrong for a long time. While it would have been preferable to fix the hide counts to be accurate, for some reason this hasn't been an easy bug to fix. I am guessing that Groundspeak found it preferable to remove the statistic banners altogether, instead of receiving the steady stream of forum threads and customer service emails that complained about the hide counts being wrong on this page.

[+Avernar]

The "hide count" on that friends list page has been wrong for a long time. While it would have been preferable to fix the hide counts to be accurate, for some reason this hasn't been an easy bug to fix. I am guessing that Groundspeak found it preferable to remove the statistic banners altogether, instead of receiving the steady stream of forum threads and customer service emails that complained about the hide counts being wrong on this page.

 

The code that generates the stat bar seems to get it right. Why not use that code?

 

Or just remove the hide count and leave the find count in place?

 

Now there's going to be a steady stream of forum threads and customer service emails that complain about the find count being removed. I've already seen at least 3 or 4 threads about it.

[knowschad]

Today's update included language localization, something that's been asked for by geocachers outside the USA for years. Imagine yourself as a veteran German or French geocacher who's been using the site in English for five or more years. Would you be happy today?

I have got to agree with you about that part of this release! While it doesn't help me, I know that it makes the site much more useful for many.

[+dfx]

See what next month brings!

it would help if we could get at least an official yes, no or at least a maybe for the oft-suggested features. as it is now, all there is from GS is deafening silence, so people will never know if what they want is ever going to be implemented. of course they're constantly hoping for it, as they don't know any better. then the update comes, and it's not there. big disappointment.

[+northernpenguin]

Put me down as a customer that's pretty happy about this month's update. It brings some more speed to the site , and a few neat little things to notice.

 

At least Groundspeak is, DOING SOMETHING. They could just sit on their codebase and claim it's done or that it's good enough... It's not like there is much in the way of competing listing sites (really, we're not going anywhere else). The fact that they dare to touch the magic sauce that brings them income is a good thing in itself -- just ask Coca Cola how that went when they played around with their core product (New Coke anyone?).

 

Yes there are features I'd like to see. Heck I've grilled the hell out of Moun10Bike and Raine over lack of feature support for my particular brand of mobile device. Unless we want to start paying a LOT more for our Premium Memberships, we're going to have to learn to accept that the developers want to do crazy things like sleep, eat, go caching and occasionally see their families.

 

I'm sure the most requested feature set, or failing that the ones that Groundspeak feels will be most beneficial to the company and the game in general are bubbling to the top of the todo list.

 

--

 

The "Like" feature is controversial, as anything touching Facebook is right now. Big whoop. If you are worried about Facebook and privacy, delete your Facebook account and let the rest of us get on with life.

[+thebruce0]

it would help if we could get at least an official yes, no or at least a maybe for the oft-suggested features. as it is now, all there is from GS is deafening silence, so people will never know if what they want is ever going to be implemented. of course they're constantly hoping for it, as they don't know any better. then the update comes, and it's not there. big disappointment.

This.

 

I'd love to see some response to suggestions, in some way. Like they say, silence can be more hurtful than negativity - at least with the latter you know you're not being ignored. I know one could argue that it's far too much work to address every single suggestion and issue someone mentions anywhere, and heck as a developer myself I'd love to have access to whatever bug-tracking system GS has in place (which I know will never happen ) just to see what errors/bugs/features/improvements have been noted and what their priorities are.

 

hm.

Perhaps as a community we could develop our own request list - I know there's a thread in the iPhone forum I believe that keeps track of suggestions and what's been addressed and not... what if we do something similar for GC.com in general? Perhaps even adjust the order of items depending on how much 'noise' is made about them? Sometimes great suggestions can get lost in the threads. If there's a user-made thread which is always kept uptodate, perhaps even stickied by a moderator, then there will always be a list and we'll have a better idea of, for example, how much new stuff GS does that no one seems to have suggested, vs how much they address the very commonly requested features/changes/fixes?

 

So being a developer for 20+ years and if you've dealt with users in a medium like this you should know what it's like on this side of the monitor.

Well you don't have to be a developer for 20+ years to know what it's like on that side of the monitor. That's neither here nor there. The issue isn't that a lot of work is being done on the site - we know, and we repeatedly say it's MUCH appreciated. The problem seems to be that a lot of attention is placed moreso on internal ideas (seemingly, at least) rather than what appear to be very common and desired items made by community, users, customers. Being on that "side of the monitor", I know that it's very bad form to roll out untested internal "good ideas" before addressing (whether positively or not) customer concerns and hopes - especially paying customers.

 

That said, once again, all the work you GS devs do IS very much appreciated. We'd just like, in a sense, to be kept in the loop, and hopefully the more experienced/respected of us at least can feel that some of our background and ideas are taken into consideration. If only as a sounding board for new ideas that GS itself would like to roll out.

 

Community, the 'hive mind', as it were, can be FAR more productive first hand for suggesting and fleshing out improvements and changes to a product, even though the final say ultimately does belong to the developers and TPTB. Listen to us - fix essential bugs first, listen to community next, then implement your own unique stuff for which no one really knows what the public sentiment will be (let alone if it'll work technically right off the bat).

 

I'm not trying to be confrontational, we love geocaching and Groundspeak, but just as Facebook is going through lots of unexpected-updates-and-policy-turmoil, Groundspeak seems to rile up its core community almost with every rollout, addressing issues people either don't realize needed addressing or didn't need addressing in the first place. We're clear about why we criticize, so that's not the issue, and those of us who understand 'that side of the monitor' are not doing it to be negative - we're doing it for the betterment of the community and product, the whole shebang!

 

/soapbox

[+Markwell]

I've been requesting a rating system for 9 years.

 

Years.

 

Nine.

 

I've stated that the fact that the PQ generator allows mutual exclusivity for selection of caches is a significant issues since they first came out. I even set up a mock up of how to improve the interface back in August of 2007.

 

That was 2 years, 9 months and 17 days ago.

 

I'm always pleasantly surprised with the strides that this site makes in developing new ways to bring this game to the public: better resources, little nice things along the way. Sure there are things I'd like to see implemented, and several like the two above that have had reasoned arguments for implementation for YEARS.

 

But I am not privy to the inner workings at Groundspeak - how they utilize resources and employees. The Facebook "like" thing, might have been a 5-10 minute piece of code that a new employee said "Hey - I know how to do that from my old job." So why not include it in the update. As a SQL developer and now manager, I can say that there are times that low hanging fruit get easily taken care of while some frequently requested and more complicated updates take a significant amount of time to develop, test and implement. In the meantime other emergent issues take place.

 

Every user believes that their idea should be easy to implement and should be a high priority. We may WANT to have a filter on a map be reflected in the newly created PQ from the map, but it may just have a lower priority. I personally believe the mutually exclusive selection on PQs should be a high priority, and was please in this announcement that some headway was being made.

Coming soon:

Our designer Jen is working on some impressive updates to the PQ list and creation page(s). Irksome issues such as mutually exclusive selections (Have found, Haven't found anyone?) and unneeded options (does anyone really choose .LOC over .GPX?) are being addressed. I think you'll be pleased with the result.

It wasn't in this push. So what? I NEVER claim to know the priorities of the developers and the ease at which they can solve a problem. I'll just be happy when any of the suggestions I participate in come to fruition. I got much bigger things to worry about in my life than to get knotted up because something I requested didn't happen.

[cezanne]

Today's update included language localization, something that's been asked for by geocachers outside the USA for years. Imagine yourself as a veteran German or French geocacher who's been using the site in English for five or more years. Would you be happy today?

 

No, on the contrary. This localization is a bad idea from my point of view and will only contribute to

even further problems with the too fast growth of geocaching in German speaking countries.

 

By the way, the request for support for multilingual cache descriptions (done by the hider of the cache) has been put forward by many European cachers much earlier than the request for localization of the interface.

Nothing has happened within the last seven years although the implementation would be much easier and cheaper than the localization.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited June 3, 2010 by cezanne

[+tozainamboku]

WORD knowschad! This is tragedy in harmony. Waste of programming time with some collectible TB and GC thingy, like it button with no protection of privacy, no find counts on friends any more.

Like you and the dog with glasses, some of these recent updates are of little or no use to me. However they all seem to be things that someone has asked for. My guess it that Grounspeak looks at all the requests and suggestions that people make in the forums. They then prioritorize them for development. What criteria they use I don't know. They did sent me a survey recently and perhaps the results from that was used to determine what features would benefit most people. But perhaps they also look at what may attract the most new players. I wrote in the thread discussing TB collections, that I didn't think collecting coins was geocaching. But obviously there are many people who enjoy collecting coins and find this fits in with geoaching in some way. I also don't see the need to publically announce on facebook every cache I like. But on the other hand, I've encouraged premium members to have bookmark lists of their favorite caches as a way of sharing this with other geocachers. And since English is my native language and I use American dates, all the work on on internalization of the site doesn't do squat for me, but I can see the need for it to help geocachers who live in other countries.

 

You can't please all of the people all of the time. Every update will have users complaining. The Groundspeak developers are getting better at getting these regular updates out. The Scrum methodology that they use talks about chickens and pigs.

A pig and a chicken are walking down a road. The chicken looks at the pig and says, “Hey, why don’t we open a restaurant?” The pig looks back at the chicken and says, “Good idea, what do you want to call it?” The chicken thinks about it and says, “Why don’t we call it ‘Ham and Eggs’?” “I don’t think so,” says the pig, “I’d be committed, but you’d only be involved.”

The users are the chickens - clearly interested in development decisions; but the developers are the pigs - they have to commit to what ever is decided and be sucessful at getting the job done.

[+monsterbox]

Hi!

 

some collectible TB and GC thingy,

Fans of trackables have been asking for such a feature for quite a long time. Groundspeak promised the concept of a "collectible," literally years ago.

 

That's something good bye the way :-) Not sure if it really works like I believe it will (or should) but it definitely is an improvement not just for me. And the ones not having trackables/collectibles don't see a difference. So this definitely is what I would call a perfect improvement of the site!

 

like it button with no protection of privacy,

Fans of Facebook have been asking for better integration with that popular website.

 

I haven't been asking for that and right now as it came I instead already have been asking for the exact opposite! I am not willing to see my caches on Facebook at all! As a first result I changes all my active caches to MOC caches. Not sure if that helps in the end but at least it should as non members should not be able to see the cache description now. But in the end I would prefer having the option to decide by myself if I want to have this facebook link on MY cache page or not. And believe me: I would definitely set it to NO :-)

 

Other changes that I believe I have seen are slightly different icons and a different cache header that looks not as good as before to me but this might be more related to my extraordinary screen resolution.

 

In former times I complained every time I thought there is a reason for me to do that. Some times it looked to me that some new features or changes made it worse than before and there are still some things I'd like to get changed but the general usability of the site is pretty nice!

 

What I always was complaining about was the quality of the changes/features as it looked to me that the stuff often hasn't been tested as good as needed. And I still think I was right doing so ;-)

 

This time it's just the Facebook crap I don't like at all but hopefully my workaround helps a little bit.

 

So in the end I only have 2 wishes:

 

1. Open for the Facebook link for MY cache pages

 

2. Even higher maps for the map search page (2560*1600 screen resolution). Asked many times for that already but it looks like I'd need to buy one for Raine first to make him finally understand my needs ;-)

 

O.k., that's it for the moment from my side...

 

Bye,

Christian

[+northernpenguin]

 

I haven't been asking for that and right now as it came I instead already have been asking for the exact opposite! I am not willing to see my caches on Facebook at all! As a first result I changes all my active caches to MOC caches. Not sure if that helps in the end but at least it should as non members should not be able to see the cache description now. But in the end I would prefer having the option to decide by myself if I want to have this facebook link on MY cache page or not. And believe me: I would definitely set it to NO :-)

 

Technically, your cache isn't on the Facebook site. A link to your cache is on the Facebook site, and it has no more connection with your privacy than the http://coord.info/gc123456 link or the Google Index.

[+L0ne.R]

Fans of Facebook have been asking for better integration with that popular website.

But why link Facebook to the rating/reward system feature we've been asking for?

I've been following the rating system requests on the forums for a couple of years now, and not once have a seen a request to use a rating system that is tied to Facebook. Not once have I seen people asking for a third party rating system. People who want a rating system have been asking for an in-house (geocaching.com) system.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Lone R

[Keystone]

I never said that the "like" feature is intended to be The Ratings System. That is a conclusion you reached on your own.

[+Vater_Araignee]

I never said that the "like" feature is intended to be The Ratings System. That is a conclusion you reached on your own.

Can we take that as an official "It is not a rating system"?

[+JBnW]

My apologies to the bespectacled canine (how's THAT for National Spelling Bee week?? ), but I've been botching too many quotes lately, so here goes...

 

That is only one example. I remember a thread, now lost to the archives, that had a host of helpful changes just to the maps alone.

 

And here ya go:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...223770&st=0 (Map Improvements)

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...222822&st=0 (Suggestions for improving the Google Map)

 

Both came out just about this time last year. To be clear, I'm not a power user of this site. I've fairly well figured out how to run a PQ when I want one, have no need for my own off-line database, make a few forum posts, log trackables, etc. But I certainly haven't tested every feature available to the extent of trying to find a bug. I do appreciate the efforts the programming team has gone through to make the site useable for little ol' me, and occasionally more useable. I don't have clue how you folks make it all happen, but I do love that it does happen! Really!

 

But as the Knower of Chad brought it up, here is the one thing about the site that is simply frustrating, and apparently an easy fix. It would be great to be able to pan the map to an area of interest without the browser freezing up while loading unneeded maps, then calling up the associated caches...lather, rinse, repeat. There were other suggestions in those threads, and not many of them seemed controversial. Actually, many of the participants seemed to agree with many of them (when do you see that in these forums?).

 

So, when features are discussed with general agreement in the forum, how do they get placed on the programming task list?

 

Again, please don't take this post to indicate any lack of appreciation for what you folks do. Just asking.

[+dfx]

I never said that the "like" feature is intended to be The Ratings System. That is a conclusion you reached on your own.

Can we take that as an official "It is not a rating system"?

of course it isn't. it's just a link to tell your spambook "friends" about a certain website, which can be a cache listing, news article, online game, whatever.

 

but that's the biggest problem with this update: people may mistake it as a rating system, which it clearly isn't. they may think that more "likes" = better cache, which totally isn't what it means.

Edited June 3, 2010 by dfx

[+thebruce0]

people may mistake it as a rating system, which it clearly isn't. they may think that more "likes" = better cache, which totally isn't what it means.

Perhaps the button style should be switched to the facebook "Share" button which would accomplish, really, what I think the intent is. The "Like" version is a very trendy feature at the moment. If the intent is to share, and there's complaints about privacy and forced hitting of an off-site server, then providing the "Share" button instead would do that - allow people to opt-in to post links to a page they like via their facebook profile. No iframe, not facebook.com loading, no cookie tracking or IP tracking, nothing.

 

I would personally put my vote behind that. In the context of GC.com caches, a FB Share button is FAR friendlier and less irritating than the Like button.

[+Vater_Araignee]

I never said that the "like" feature is intended to be The Ratings System. That is a conclusion you reached on your own.

Can we take that as an official "It is not a rating system"?

of course it isn't. it's just a link to tell your spambook "friends" about a certain website, which can be a cache listing, news article, online game, whatever.

 

but that's the biggest problem with this update: people may mistake it as a rating system, which it clearly isn't. they may think that more "likes" = better cache, which totally isn't what it means.

Yeah, but Can we have a GS rep say that? Any of us can say it till we are blue in the face, but it means squat without official word.

[+Geovius]

Today's update included language localization, something that's been asked for by geocachers outside the USA for years. Imagine yourself as a veteran German or French geocacher who's been using the site in English for five or more years. Would you be happy today?

 

Actually since release notes mentioned Swedish as a major language... Well perhaps it's better not to say anything else from that. (The friendly rivalry between Sweden and Finland is still going on)

 

I think that site's language it is not most requested localisation feature comparing to actual multilanguage cache description. Which I and many others are still waiting to see.

[+eagsc7]

See what next month brings!

it would help if we could get at least an official yes, no or at least a maybe for the oft-suggested features. as it is now, all there is from GS is deafening silence, so people will never know if what they want is ever going to be implemented. of course they're constantly hoping for it, as they don't know any better. then the update comes, and it's not there. big disappointment.

... Archived Caches in _____ State/Province as a Canned PQ...(Only Updated Monthly.)

... Active caches in _____ State/Province as a Canned PQ...(as to take the place of an entire DAY)

[knowschad]

I and we have posted some very good and thoughtful suggestions that have been ignored, release after release

 

There are only so many developers working here and with the amount of suggestions/ideas/personal concepts on our lists, we can't get to them all in a three week sprint.

 

Knowschad, you started playing this game/hobby/life right after I started working here. You've seen the site evolve as long as I have. It went from an army of one to the small team we have now. It's gone from "lets work on a project till it's done and release" to our not so agile sometimes scrum process.

 

There's passion behind the things we do and we want to make a product that everyone can use. Sadly sometimes we've made wrong decisions but we've tried to correct those if possible (look how collectibles were handled today).

 

In these past five years I've gotten to know what people will start to be more vocal in this forum then others after a release, and Knowschad, you just happen to be one of them. So being a developer for 20+ years and if you've dealt with users in a medium like this you should know what it's like on this side of the monitor.

 

I find the criticism of the dog rather unfair as well.

 

Agreed.

 

-Raine

OK, Raine... I deliberately sat on this all day before responding so I would have time to let it all sink it.

 

First, let me say that I don't feel that my being vocal about changes and lack of changes has a single thing to do with the validity of my voice. If I speak loudly and often, there might be a good reason for it. Few people that I have met in my life see me as a chronic complainer or an abrasive personality. Likewise, few see me as meek and unable to speak my mind. I tend to call it as I see it.

 

One of the map suggestions that I and others mentioned in one of the the maps improvement threads that JBnW graciously linked to (thanks, JBnW!!) was the ability to pause the auto-refresh of the maps while scrolling or zooming. That was added fairly recently... and I, for one, love it, and should have said, "THANKS!!". Instead, I do so now. Thanks!!

 

I do totally understand what its like on your side of the monitor. I also understand what it is like on my side of the monitor, though. Do you guys really want our suggestions, or not? If not, then please, just say so! As Markwell just pointed out (albeit trying to make the opposite point) he has been waiting for YEARS for a very logical fix to the pocket query attributes. He spent a lot of time and energy trying to make his point, and I doubt that anyone can dispute that point. But instead of having it fixed, we now features that few of us like, much less have asked for. That is where your resources are going, and that is what I am talking about.

 

I apologize if it sounded as though I was criticizing the developers... I was not!! What I was, and am, criticizing is management's decision making process. Whoever is in charge of marketing obviously trumps the end users of this site. They (or he/she) either seem to think that they know better what is going to make us happy, or they care less about that than what will bring new users to the game. At least, that is the feeling that I get, and I hope that you don't discount that feeling by thinking that I am the only one. I may be vocal, but I am not alone.

[+Chrysalides]

I find the criticism of the dog rather unfair as well.

Agreed.

 

-Raine

I just realized that my statement could be taken both ways. What I mean is, the criticism directed towards knowschad is unfair, not that the criticisms he made are unfair. Sorry if there's any misunderstanding.

[+Markwell]

Whoever is in charge of marketing obviously trumps the end users of this site.

I'm not surprised by this at all. I have seen decisions by marketing drive complicated and urgent enhancements requests to a system at my job. Many times these demands for changes to the system came from the fact that "marketing" had already marketed a feature to a client just to get their business, and said that it was already available. Then they asked the developers to make it happen. That's just the way it is.

 

But you obviously missed my point when I mentioned how long I had been waiting for some of the simpler requests.

 

 

Patience.

 

I was very vocal about another idea I requested: Parking Coordinates. How easy would it be to have a system in place where for every cache there is the option of adding parking coordinates. It didn't happen for a LONG time, but when it did, the developers made it even better than I imagined with my two fields (lat/lon) - they implemented the additional waypoints, which have become very helpful not only for parking, but for multi's with openly viewed stages, and for the hidden stages for reviewers to double check proximity, etc.

 

I occasionally return and request a feature again. But I don't go storming around demanding that fixes be implemented.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Markwell

[cezanne]

I occasionally return and request a feature again. But I don't go storming around demanding that fixes be implemented.

 

Actually, none of us who are not associated with Groundspeak can demand any sort of change.

 

I need to admit that when I read the starting post, I thought that someone is raising the same type of question that I have asked myself already quite often, but did not post to the forums. My impression might well be wrong, but I also often felt that changes have been implemented that noone asked for and even worse, that most cachers feel negative about. Moreover, I have the feeling that quite some work (for my taste much to much work ) is regularly invested into layout questions and things of this type. After each update the layout looks different, and this disturbs me instead of making me happy.

 

Patience is certainly an important virtue. I have to agree with dfx, however, that some sort of response from Groundspeak to major requests brought up over years would make it more easier for cachers to have realistic expectations and to avoid disappointments. For example, the wish for the support of multilingual cache descriptions has been voiced that often over the years and never ever any sort of response from Groundspeak has been offered.

 

While I understand that Groundspeak decides what they implement and what they ignore, I am still disappointed that they are on the way to implement the language localization (a further step into splitting up the community intomany smaller subcommunities with no links between them) and they seem to ignore any step towards reinforcing the international character of geocaching. There are many national geocaching sites available. I chose gc.com because its internationality at the beginning and not because any of its other properties.

 

 

Cezanne

[knowschad]

But you obviously missed my point when I mentioned how long I had been waiting for some of the simpler requests.

 

Patience.

I said, "As Markwell just pointed out (albeit trying to make the opposite point) he has been waiting for YEARS for a very logical fix to the pocket query attributes." I didn't miss your point. I was simply using your point as an example.

 

But I don't go storming around demanding that fixes be implemented.

You see me as "storming around, and demanding fixes"?

[+northernpenguin]

 

While I understand that Groundspeak decides what they implement and what they ignore, I am still disappointed that they are on the way to implement the language localization (a further step into splitting up the community intomany smaller subcommunities with no links between them) and they seem to ignore any step towards reinforcing the international character of geocaching. There are many national geocaching sites available. I chose gc.com because its internationality at the beginning and not because any of its other properties.

 

 

While I can understand your point about multilingual cache descriptions, there is a workaround in place - today. In your cache description, start with the prominent local language for the region the cache is located in, and add additional languages to your cache description as the need warrants. I see caches in Quebec like this - the description starts in French and repeats in English.

 

This is something you, as the cache owner, have control over.

 

Localizing the Geocaching.com website is not something you have control over, so it makes sense that Groundspeak would implement that - you cannot and do not have a workaround for changing the site language. Well, perhaps in a Greasemonkey script but Groundspeak can't base their site on a firefox/Greasemonkey hack.

 

Also, when implementing a multilanguage cache feature there's a huge issue in the room -- namely most cache owners don't have the ability to write effective cache descriptions in 10 different languages. A "en Francais" button isn't going to help if the cache was placed by an anglophone. I would see this as a feature that could potentially limit new cache placements as people worry they won't be able to fulfill the multilanguage requirements for a new listing. Just saying, it's not a clear cut thing to "just implement" - a lot of thought has to go in for the implementation of such a feature, and it goes way beyond simple code.

[+thedeadpirate]

The way I read KnowsChad's point is, "Why does marketing seem to trump customer requests?"

 

It's a valid question.

 

(I'm fairly confident that the developers have asked themselves the same question when told to implement something they may not feel is a priority)

[cezanne]

While I can understand your point about multilingual cache descriptions, there is a workaround in place - today. In your cache description, start with the prominent local language for the region the cache is located in, and add additional languages to your cache description as the need warrants. I see caches in Quebec like this - the description starts in French and repeats in English.

 

Actually, I am doing this since 2003 with the only difference that I start with English, the primary language of geocaching. The problem is, however, that my cache descriptions are already long in one language. It would be nice to be able to switch off automatically all language versions not needed when printing or downloading GPX-versions or whatever.

 

I already offered several times to local geocachers to provide them with translations of their cache pages that are available only in German, but are interesting for a broader audience and typically I received the reply that they do not want to clutter up their cache pages and increase the length of the cache description. In times when so many cachers switch over to paperless caching, this argument even becomes more popular than it has been years ago.

 

In my home region a majority of cachers is sufficiently proficient to come up with English cache descriptions. Nevertheless, nowaydays it is a small minority who offer English versions. The reasons mentioned above largely contribute to that. I feel very sorry about this situation and feel e.g. quite ashamed when cachers from Slovenia (I am living not too far from the border to Slovenia) have to bother around with the German versions while they use to offer their descriptions in English as well (their community is still rather small).

 

 

Localizing the Geocaching.com website is not something you have control over, so it makes sense that Groundspeak would implement that -

 

I agree with the first part, but not with the second part. That depends on one's personal opinion.

The typical veteran cachers prefer the English version and will not switch to localized versions.

The availability of localized versions will most probably increase the grwoth rate of geocaching in areas where this is not desirable any more.

 

Getting used to the commands of a site like gc.com one really needs, is something which is possible in almost any language with a reasonable amount of motivation. I am even able to use the Hungarian

geocaching site. The trouble is typically the language in which the caches are described.

Searching for caches and logging them are trivialities.

 

Also, when implementing a multilanguage cache feature there's a huge issue in the room -- namely most cache owners don't have the ability to write effective cache descriptions in 10 different languages.

 

I do not see why this causes an issue. By the way, the cache site opencaching.de

has implemented the support for multilingual descriptions many years ago (I was among the people asking for it there as well) and the system works well. The only trouble there is that most users who use oc.de seriously are only caching in Germany and thus multilingual descriptions are not that helpful on oc.de as they would be on gc.com.

 

A "en Francais" button isn't going to help if the cache was placed by an anglophone.

 

Apart from the fact that are anglophones who are able to provide a French version,

the most required additional language version to be added will be an English version

or the local language version (when I started geocaching many Austrian cache descriptions

have only be done in English to reflect the internationality of the activity while nowadays some cachers complain if there does not exist a local version).

 

I would see this as a feature that could potentially limit new cache placements as people worry they won't be able to fulfill the multilanguage requirements for a new listing. Just saying, it's not a clear cut thing to "just implement" - a lot of thought has to go in for the implementation of such a feature, and it goes way beyond simple code.

 

There do not need to exist a button of the type you mentioned above. Have a look at opencaching.de.

One can add new language versions and whenever one does so, one chooses the language for it from a checkbox. They managed to implement this within a few days and it works very well.

Those wo just want to use one language, will not even realize that there exists the possibility to come up with further versions.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited June 4, 2010 by cezanne

[+thebruce0]

The way I read KnowsChad's point is, "Why does marketing seem to trump customer requests?"

 

It's a valid question.

Aye. And I think there are two sides.

 

For non-paying clients: Marketing over requests.

For paying clients: Customers over Marketing.

 

There's a time and place for both. The difficulty is finding the right time and place for either. =P

Edited June 4, 2010 by thebruce0