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kayakbird

Most likely error - L/L or Elevation?

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I am planning a kayak camping expedition to the UL Bend Wilderness Area along the Missouri River in north central Montana. Primary targets will be half a dozen 1885 MORC triangulation stations and maybe a few 1935 C&GS and 1937 COE map control points also. There are also a couple of UNK USGS marks in the area.

 

Map scouting for SQ0363 is giving me a problem - L/L seems to match the calls "SQ0363'2.1 MILES NORTHWEST ALONG A ROAD LEADING TO THE WILDER-LEGG ROAD FROM SQ0363'MUSSELSHELL FERRY---", but the elevation of "2217.15 (feet) COMP" puts it 30 feet below Fort Peck Reservoir full pool and ten feet below current water surface. This L/L is more than 1/2 mile to either shoreline. Nearby SQ0437 pins at a scaled map elevation of about 2300 ft but its elevation about 5 feet above the water now. Wave action may have eroded all traces of the road below full pool, but traces should remain where they came down off the ridges.

 

c790ed0b-7539-433b-ba2f-159d40b0659a.jpg

 

SQ0557 Map photo with nearby MORC.

 

I have traced in two possible routes for the Musshelshell Ferry Road.

 

I think that the call road intersection "SQ0437'3.0 MILES NORTH ALONG A ROAD LEADING TO THE WILDER-LEGG ROAD FROM MUSSELSHELL FERRY, PHILLIPS COUNTY, 5.8 MILES SOUTH OF THE JUNCTION OF THE WILDER-LEGG ROAD---" is at SQ0430 on the west shoreline of Dry Lake.

 

I would appreciate anyone's best guess on the most likely typo for SQ0363: elevation or lat/long.

 

Thanks, Mike

 

Links added 2115 2 June 10. MEL

Edited by kayakbird

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Where are you getting 2217 feet?

 

 SQ0437* NAVD 88	 -	   680.538  (meters)	2232.73   (feet)  ADJUSTED  

I see 2232.73, which is about 15 feet higher, which if 2217 is ten feet under the water level, should be about 5 feet above the high-water mark, right? :)

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:( If the BM was UNDERWATER in 1935, would that indicated the L/L is wrong if the L/L puts you 1/2 mile from the shoreline?

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FX, SQ0363 is where I have the elevation question - sorry I didn't get it linked this morning - was running almost late to see an eye doctor.

 

John, I think most of the 65 NOT FOUND recoveries anywhere near Fort Peck Reservoir were P 51'd. My intuition tells me to check the call distance out the eastern most road. Visited the DNRC Water Rights office here today (Scott & Sterling say HI) and on a 1959 aerial photo I could trace that road into the Jim Wells Creek valley and on to the north.

 

It is a lovely place for a hike - interesting ice shield geology,wild flowers, birds, ticks, buzztails, no vehicles.

 

Thanks, MEL

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Mike,

 

SQ0363 is a Benchmark which was leveled and has scaled coordinates. This would tend to place the highest percentage of probable error on the location not the elevation. There could be a problem with the elevation, but not likely and not on more than one benchmark in an area.

 

We are working on a project at Rock Creek and I am heading to Medora the week after next, I might make a quick run through there, let me know where you might be.

 

The Corps elevation for the pool is based on NGVD29 elevations which is only about 2 feet lower in that area, so you should not be seeing much difference from that causing you any problems.

 

My money is on the L/L values being incorrect over the elevation values.

 

Kurt

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FX, SQ0363 is where I have the elevation question - sorry I didn't get it linked this morning - was running almost late to see an eye doctor.

Ah, in that case I'll go back to the shadows and let others comment. :) I didn't even notice the different PID when I went to go look it up! :laughing:

 

-Mike.

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It appears to me based on the elevations (I concur with CallawayMT that these are more likely to be correct than L/L), that the level line was run down in the river valley and subsequently inundated, along with the road it ran along. Where was the Musselshell Ferry? Where is the Wilder-Legg Road? You'll need this information before you can begin to guess at the BM locations. If the Wilder-Legg road intersection is at Dry Lake as you suggest, then I would expect to find SQ0437 5.8 miles south of there and 3.0 miles north of the ferry, while SQ0363 should be another 0.9 miles south on the same road. If SQ0363 was in a fence line, it might have been a section line - the most likely candidate would seem to be the line between sections 21 and 28. Any evidence of a fence along that line? Can you estimate 30 feet below the highest pool elevation along the fence (if it's there) and near a fence corner? Good luck with the hunt!

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If it's any help, the Musselshell Ferry may have been near Fort Musselshell, which was located at N 47.4555534 W 107.9145576, according to the GNIS database. That location is underwater, southwest of the stations, according the the USGS quads. The Musselshell River is also nearby, so possibly the ferry just crossed that river, without any particular relation to the fort, although a crossing near the fort would seem to be useful.

 

Legg was located at N 47.5930539 W 107.8995583. Wilder was at N 47.6144387 W 108.4520823.

 

On the USGS quads, there appear to be a number of roads that might be the Wilder-Legg road, and the ones that Kayakbird chose do seem to be good candidates for the road from the ferry to the Wilder-Legg road.

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More Mystery

 

Thanks to everyone for their input on this one. Sure hope the weather lets me get in there soon.

 

My best estimate of the Musselshell Ferry is at 472730.0 1075234.0, 0.1 south of SQ0364 on the county line between Garfield and Phillips (historic river channel is the line). A road comes down to the reservoir shoreline 0.61 mi south of this point.

 

I pulled up all the DATA SHEETS from SR0050, about 16 mi west - a MORC BM that I recovered last September, down to the ferry location. Calls at SR0053 (MORC BM NFND 09), SR0056 (MORC BM FND 09), SR0058 (1935 C&GS not looked for 09), SR0059(MORC BM NFND 09) place the Wilder-Legg road in the river valley down to there. Some where below that the road apparently climbed the low bluffs to the north to go past SQ0444, SQ0445, SQ0428 and SQ0429. For some reason SQ0430 at Dry Lake does not have a call to LEGG.

 

The distances from SR0056/57 and above are measured downstream from Wilder; and below there west from Legg. Intervals between all points check out pretty good, but the terminus at Legg has to be somewhere east of Dry Lake; likely somewhere in Mickus Bottom near 473330.0 1074820.0. This position fits the distance calls of west, then south on the Musselshel Ferry Road for SQ0435(the call from the Locke Ranch to the Township line does not make sense and is in error in the first place - should be T20N/T21N), SQ0436 and SQ0437. Legg Well is on the quad map near the L/L that holograph provided.

 

Which brings us back to SQ0363 - up on the peninsula or down in the flood plain? In the Missouri Breaks geography it is common to find the major roads up on the ridges and benches to avoid the riparian vegetation and numerous erosion gullys. I can see a couple of places where the meander of the old river channel is very close to steep bluffs on the west side of the UL Bend which would preclude a valley road.

 

I better go take a look. MEL

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I think most of the 65 NOT FOUND recoveries anywhere near Fort Peck Reservoir were P 51'd.

If I may ask, what is: P 51'd?

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I think most of the 65 NOT FOUND recoveries anywhere near Fort Peck Reservoir were P 51'd.

If I may ask, what is: P 51'd?

 

Very early on in our training to be a Marine Naval Aviator we were taught not to pad our log books with a Parker 51 fountain pen. From Google: P 51 time. I believe that "dry lab data" refers to the same process, but it didn't pop-up on Google. MEL

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I think most of the 65 NOT FOUND recoveries anywhere near Fort Peck Reservoir were P 51'd.

If I may ask, what is: P 51'd?

 

Very early on in our training to be a Marine Naval Aviator we were taught not to pad our log books with a Parker 51 fountain pen. From Google: P 51 time. I believe that "dry lab data" refers to the same process, but it didn't pop-up on Google. MEL

That's a great reference. Kudos. :)

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My best estimate of the Musselshell Ferry is at 472730.0 1075234.0, 0.1 south of SQ0364 on the county line between Garfield and Phillips (historic river channel is the line). A road comes down to the reservoir shoreline 0.61 mi south of this point.

 

I stitched quads to reproduce your map, and measured along the various roads. Based on the notes for SQ0580 and SQ0435, it's clear that Legg was east of Dry Lake, somewhere under water now. Also, I see now that SQ0364 was 400 feet northeast of the ferry landing, which virtually pinpoints that location.

 

The odometer readings in the various descriptions seem to be approximate, since they only roughly match the distances as calculated in a GIS program.

 

After all that, it still doesn't shed much light on the problem with SQ0363, since the odometer reading in its description simply won't get you anywhere near its elevation or water.

 

Click the thumbnail below for the full reproduction of your map, with annotations.

SQ0363_t.png

Edited by holograph

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Imagine a road that ran from the ferry NW along the river valley. If you look at the current satellite images with the water receded on the west side of the UL Bend, you can almost see evidence of a roadway. Just a thought.

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Thanks again for everyone's effort.

 

SQ0363 will remain NOT FOUND, UNDER WATER; but its Lat/Long should be rescaled to the distance call from the Musselshell Ferry around the southwest corner of the UL Bend. After two days there I am satisfied that the route to the Wilder-Legg Rd followed the Missouri River valley north to Jim Wells Creek, turned east, then north to SQ0436 (still NOT FOUND), SQ0435 (FOUND) and on to Dry Lake.

 

I was able pick this road up at the high water mark and follow along easily; departing at SQ0436 to visit the old homestead just north and then re-intercepting it before arriving at SQ0435. I could not find any evidence of a road climbing of this valley to the south end of the UL Bend, and observing the roughness of the terrain precluded even a visit to the DATA SHEET L/L for SQ0363.

 

SQ0437 USGS 2228 UNK date will be recovered as NOT FOUND, likely washed out and/or silted over by wave action erosion. I boat scouted the shoreline for more than a mile along here and walked the most likely 1/4 mile. Waters edge all along here is 50 to 75 feet from the toe of highly eroded bluffs. There was one short segment of what could have been a road shoulder but more likely just another wave action beach mark.

 

Current COE Daily Reservoir Reports published elevation of the reservoir is 2228 ft. If I read Kurt's remark "The Corps elevation for the pool is based on NGVD29 elevations which is only about 2 feet lower in that area ---" correctly, this means that the water surface is really 2230 and the top of cap would be more than two feet higher. If the mark was still in place and sticking out even three or four inches, it would have been very visible.

 

One question on the "MALTA" datum that these two (and maybe more) USGS BM's were tied to:

 

f0588d1a-36b1-4ae3-943c-6e2bfd9a8a80.jpg

 

SQ0435 They have been ADJUSTED by a plus 4.7 feet, but other stamped elevations somewhat nearby have been ADJUSTED about a plus 2.5 ft. And I don't recall ever seeing that "DATUM" space filled in before.

 

02bf1137-9fb2-4f76-aebb-dd75015cdac9.jpg

 

SQ0372

 

My two days on the UL Bend did produce three out of four 1885 MORC tri's in good condition, two 1935 C&GS and two 1937 COE, a bunch of birds, two coyotes, one Green Racer non-poisonous snake, no ticks and only moderate levels of biting insects.

 

Left a few marks in the Dry Lake area for a road trip later this summer. Anyone want to ride along?

 

Mike

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More UL Bend info: Spotted a 1926 Montana Highway Map laid out for repairs at the Lewistown Library today.

 

It shows that Legg was about where the Locke Ranch, now an NWS CMR field station. is on the USGS Quad Map. Sure doesn't fit the calls!

 

71530a49-cbd5-43c6-9b7c-cda26ffbfd49.jpg

SQ0363

 

While asking the librarian for permission to photograph it, I mentioned my interest in locating the towns along the Missouri River. She went to a locked case and pulled out a book from about 1965 that listed, county by county, all the current and historical Post Offices in the state. Legg was a PO from 1917 to 1936 and moved twice. Started out near Legg Well, moved a couple of miles northwest to about the Locke Ranch and ended up on the Missouri River near Mickus Bottom. The 1935 calls do work here.

 

9851be86-76b3-47a6-8c98-1f88a7ab3b4f.jpg

 

18f4396b-85a7-47aa-b3a1-365fc7336fcb.jpg

 

Does the above 1926 road alignment mean another hike on the UL Bend to really put SQ0363 to bed? MEL

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Last report on SQ0363, maybe.

 

Saturday past I found the Anderson Point launch point, kayaked about a mile to the south end of the UL Bend and hiked to the published L/L for SQ0363. Traces of an old wagon road, very steep in a couple of places, were found just above the high water mark and easily followed once it got on top the more or less flat crest of the ridge. HH2 track closely follows what is shown on the USGS Quad map.

 

At the Y near N 47 28 31 W 107 53 05 ELEV 24 79, I followed the east trending road out to about three miles from the historic river channel. No evidence of a gate or fence were seen. Doubling back to the DS L/L for SQ0363 I again picked up an easy to see old road and followed it for 0.2 mi beyond the L/L (northwest of the road curve). Again absolutely no trace of a gate or a cross-fence was detected.

 

I believe these ridge top wagon roads would have been used seasonally when the river bottom was flooded or deep in snow drifts; and that the mark is somewhere along the river valley road on the west side of the UL Bend and now under 28 feet of water, maybe.

 

Three hours later I was beginning a forty eight hour mud delay; luckily in a ranch barnyard where I was able to help put new fan belts on an industrial backhoe and rebuild a bit of corral fence to pay for my parking spot and permission to use the key for a locked gate to get much closer to a couple of MORC TRI's - when and if the Breaks ever totally dry up this summer.

 

The storm that caught me didn't look like anything, but within 60 seconds of the first drop of rain on what had been dry road my 2WD was helpless!

 

kayakbird

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Quite an adventure, kayakbird. Thanks for sharing.

 

Also enjoyed the P-51 time reference. I had heard that in years past (probably from an Air Force flight instructor), but had no idea of the source.

 

The Circling Approach (Circle-to-land) stories brought back some no-so-fond memories of missed approaches from circling in an Air Force C-9A. Probably the scariest darn things many pilots will admit to (when sober, anyway)!

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--------

The Circling Approach (Circle-to-land) stories brought back some no-so-fond memories of missed approaches from circling in an Air Force C-9A. Probably the scariest darn things many pilots will admit to (when sober, anyway)!

 

Night IMC at a pitching deck is tops in my book. MEL

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New info - maybe the last - for this reach of the Mighty MO

 

I was doing some non-geocache research at the Lewistown, MT library today - trying to pin down the exact

location of the steamship era Carrol Landing on the Missouri River end of the Carrol Trail which terminates in Helena MT.

 

Information came to light on the Wilder Rd which explains why the Wilder to Legg calls in the 1935 level run didn't seem to make sense.

 

ed791b43-72cc-4117-adcf-a38f26a72f9e.jpg

 

SR1201

 

The town of Wilder (PO location #3) is 3.37 air miles south of the ferry location from where the road continues over six miles north before turning

southeast about ten miles back to the river and then heads to Legg (PO location # 3).

 

The best discovery was a few pages of a Missouri River Commission publication from 1892-1895 that shows BM 64-2 PID SR0056/56 exactly

where I found it last fall - over a mile south from the DS LAT/LONG.

5b1d3035-47df-4402-93b8-29974889c359.jpg

SR0056

 

Still don't know where Carrol Landing was for sure - but the STATION DESCRIPTION for SR1191 'CARROLL IS

ON THE RIGHT BANK, ONE-HALF MI. FROM THE RIVER, BACK FROM CARROLL, ON THE HIGHEST GROUNIN THE VICINITY' provides a good clue. kayakbird

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For sure the last on Legg; and only because I noticed the clerical error after the fact. MORC WILSON is at the stick behind the yucca.

 

1db8b90a-ffc5-40e6-8741-cfd6c84734e2.jpg

 

SQ0580

 

SQ0580''SECTION 19, T. 21 N., R. 31 E. THE STATION IS ABOUT 7-3/4 MILES

SQ0580''DUE SOUTH OF THE LONG X RANCH AND 1-1/2 MILES NORTHWEST OF

SQ0580''THE LEGG POST OFFICE ON A LOW, BALD SHALE BUTTE ABOUT 1 MILE

SQ0580''NORTH OF THE SHARP BEND IN THE MISSOURI RIVER JUST BELOW THE

SQ0580''LEGG POST OFFICE.

 

The ridge downstream of the last Legg PO location (now under Fort Peck Reservoir) is northeast of that location, not northwest. kayakbird

Edited by kayakbird

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