To Reach Descriptions ?

[MarkDuster]

I'm involved in a GPS control densification project and I am wondering what people would like to see in a "To Reach" as I will be writing several. So far I have been using driving directions from major land marks, like post offices. This is standard for data sheets and at the time of writing these seem good, but as people may need to find these in a hundred years, are these good enough? I can remember several, I have had to find that started from train stations, that no longer exist. We will use recreational grade GPS to locate these origanaly but after they are observed they will be "Blue Booked" and ajusted to the national datum, and will be avalible from the NGS. So you may be looking for them someday. So if anyone would like to tell me what you would like to see in a to reach, tell me. Thanks.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

To reach: as in the original,they could be updated to the current details,County,City,roads and landmarks much like the old one's are written.With the advent of the GPSr as another guide when searching is a great help as many of the original info is gone now,but alot of it still remains as well.This seems like a large undertaking to accomplish.As I understand it the NGS does not have the funds to update the System,and have seen projects in the workings for a National Effort to update all this.

 

THE MOST DANGEROUS ANIMAL IN THE FOREST DOES NOT EVEN LIVE THERE*********WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" 200TH ANNIVERSARY AND THE "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Well, that brings up a lot of points I guess. I'd have to rely on my recreational benchmark finding experience, of course.

 

To me, it matters totally whether the horizontal coordinates are adjusted or scaled. I'm tending to assume that you're not going to scale any from a topo map. (Does anyone do that anymore?)

 

If the horizontal coordinates are adjusted, then the to-reach instructions are not 100% necessary. If the person looking for the mark has a GPS with a street map, the general location can be found by looking at the map and the specific location is pointed to by the GPS.

 

There are only 2 kinds of to-reach information that I ever use (whether the horz. is adjusted or scaled).

 

1. From the to-reach, I learn which side of the road/highway the mark is on, so I can make a decision on where to park the car. For whatever reason, I find that to-reach instructions almost never say 'west bound side', which would be nice and simple.

 

2. The reference objects within 100 feet. Especially the ones within 50 feet are extremely useful, although not absolutely necessary, for recreation-grade GPS units.

 

A 'pet peeve' of mine is the compass directions to local landmarks seem sloppy. i.e. 32.2 feet SW of the station. When I look, it's really SSW, so why not say it? It's as if surveyors use some cracker-jack 4-point toy compass when they write the to-reach.

 

I guess my direct answer would be (assuming adjusted horizontal coordinates):

 

1. Tell which side of the road it's on in simple terms like 'Westbound side', and just skip the other 'turn here and then turn there' to-reach verbage.

 

2. Give local (within 50 feet) landmarks' distances and 16-point compass direction or even azimuth. (The declination change can be determined if necessary by someone going to look.)

[Z15]

I find that Post Office and other landmarks often mean a lot of unnecessary traveling to locate them when major highways are located on every map. Hardly any of the train stations exist anymore, Post Office's have been relocated and are often in the center of cites while the mark is mile out. You have to keep it simple, to much extraneous info only confuses the location IMHO.

 

So, I think the best way is to start at a major highway intersection or highway landmark like a bridge, leading to the location when possible. e.g. To reach from the intersection of US-41 and State Highway M-26 in Eagle River, follow State Highway M-26 3.6 miles Westerly to the mark on the right, etc

 

Good luck, I have done this many times.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Scaled and or adjusted.This means that they are not always where they say they are.This is an educated guess on paper to a location.I have found with getting and using the resdings(recreational)w/WASS.The Long and Latt. determined by Sppherical Triangulation is even more accurate than scaled from Topo or Adjusted within the System.I could go into a great debate here on the Accuracy that we recieve as civilians but with my 233 logged Benchmarks and close to 400 controls from the Several Quads suurounding me,the readings taken are much more accurate than those that are scaled or adjusted.Especially when going back and finding it again.I have done several tests to determine this.I actually,when this first started,GPSR to the Public,did actual precise measurements trying to figure out what length in distance was 1 second of time LONG. and LATT.We have all been in that discussion before.My opinion is:The reason they do not want to tie all these(BM) systems together is an accuracy issue.Some of my early posts that were (GONE)point to this and was trying and waiting to see how long it takes for others to make their own determinations on Matters that we have all been taught but may not all be Correct.I have worked 10 years GPSr, here and was a measurement tech, for quite a number of years,I have friends that work with the Mapping programs,Federal,and one Elderly friend who was one of the ones who helped drag chains in the early days of Surveying.You are right on lots of topics that could be discussed when rewriting the new description of the GO-TO(BM)

 

THE MOST DANGEROUS ANIMAL IN THE FOREST DOES NOT EVEN LIVE THERE*********WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" 200TH ANNIVERSARY AND THE "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

[Team Kender]

quote:

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2. The reference objects within 100 feet. Especially the ones within 50 feet are extremely useful, although not absolutely necessary, for recreation-grade GPS units.

---

 

I agree that reference objects are very helpful. On a benchmark hunt last night I never would have found it if it didn't say it was on the grounds of a hospital. Which brings me to a reminder/suggestion: please always have a north/south AND east/west description. The one at the hospital did not and I walked probably a mile in various branching directions to find the BM. I mainly found it because the description said it was 2 feet west of a chain link fence that was such and such feet west of highway 1. Without a North/south description I had to do a lot of walking to find that sucker. Because I knew it was on the hospital grounds I re-searched a narrower patch of the fench and found it.

 

quote:

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A 'pet peeve' of mine is the compass directions to local landmarks seem sloppy. i.e. 32.2 feet SW of the station. When I look, it's really SSW, so why not say it? It's as if surveyors use some cracker-jack 4-point toy compass when they write the to-reach.

---

 

Same here! Had trouble with another one last night that was in "southeast corner of the intersection, 21 feet southwest of the traffic light". If this was literal it would have placed it right in the middle of the southern intersection of a northbound street. But it was more like 21 feet south and 3 feet west or something like that, right on the curb.

 

Team Kender - Willow and Dan exploring the Bay Area backroads!

[+Black Dog Trackers]

elcamino -

 

I agree. I still prefer Eastbound or Northbound, or South or East, side of the road versus right or left side of the road, since you might not be coming from the same direction as the survey party did, but I guess it doesn't matter a lot.

 

GEO*Trailblazer # 1 -

 

Except for one case, I've never had any trouble with position Adjusted data. It's always right on. The difference between Scaled positions and my GPS is often more than 100 feet, whereas the Adjusted positions are well within the 12 foot accuracy of my GPS. The one case is HV4567 which has had no reports since 1863 and I have no proof that the shoreline didn't change since then.

 

MarkDuster -

 

Thank you very much for asking!

[+MountainMudbug]

Stating eastbound/westbound along roadways

 

Refer to nearby major intersections rather than post office/train station route

 

Refering to anything under 100 feet (preferably 25-50 ft) is a big help for me..... fire plug, storm drain, cement curb, oak tree, traffic pole, driveway

 

All of those factors would be a big help in my marker searches!

Thanks for asking

[Wild T2]

The long "to reach" descriptions were needed when the best available mapping was an old railroad, state highway, or county map. When many of these marks were set, the roads were dirt or maybe gravel if you were lucky. Now that the lower 48 states and Hawaii have full coverage of USGS 7.5' topographic maps the long tours of the county from the post office are no longer necessary. With so many sources for downloading or viewing them not having a quad is no longer an excuse.

 

We start new descriptions with the County Name, Quadrangle Name, and Section-Township-Range & Principal Meridian. The "to reach" part of the description starts at the closest quad map identifiable feature. Then come the ties to nearby objects (minimum of three, four or five preferred). We try to get at least two of the ties to intersect at something approaching a right angle.

[survey tech]

Thats right, the early survey crews were instructed to use the post office, railroad depot, etc., as a starting point for their descriptions, because these were unique and unmistakeable places in each locality that everyone could easily identify. I agree that thinking is now outmoded. The directions given in the older descriptions to the reference objects were often just eyeballed, without even a compass being used. General directions were deemed sufficient for the description, since the precise directions to these objects, which were calculated subsequently, along with the rest of the station data, were published in the reference objects section of the datasheet. So for tri-stations at least, a precise direction to each reference mark is virtually always provided.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Maybe I could start this in a little diffrent aspect.EH2910 Louisiana Purchase Monument http://www.Geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=EH2910 .This For the PLSS or Public Lands Surveys was the Point(Initial Point).The present system of Governmental Lands Surveys was adopted by Congress on the 7th of May 1785.It has been in use ever since and is the Legal Method of describing and dividing lands.It is called the "Rectangular System," that is,all its distances and bearings are measured from two lines which are at right angles to each other,viz.:+.These 2 lines,from which the measurements are made,are the Principal Meridians,which run North and South,and the Base lines which run East and West,These Principal Meridians are established,with great accuracy,by astronomical observations,each Principal Meridian has its Base Line,and these 2 lines form the basis or foundation for the surveys or measurements of all the lands within the Territory which they control.From "Analysis of the System", of UNITED STATES LAND SURVEYS,entered according to Act of Congress,In the Year,1905,By George Ogle,In the Office of the LIBRARY OF CONGRESS at Washington D.C.,I probably opened up a big can of worms here...........

 

THE MOST DANGEROUS ANIMAL IN THE FOREST DOES NOT EVEN LIVE THERE*********WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" 200TH ANNIVERSARY AND THE "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

[Z15]

I often wonder if they guys back then had any idea how important the marks would and how many people would be using thier work in 2003? What if you told them, someday there will be thing-a-migigs up in the sky that will tell you where on earth you are to the closest CM? Think they would have believed it/

[Z15]

Here's a concise description.

 

quote:

---

RK0487

RK0487 STATION DESCRIPTION

RK0487

RK0487'DESCRIBED BY US LAKE SURVEY 1873

RK0487'ABOUT 3 MILES SOUTHWEST OF GRANITE POINT, ON BALD GRANITE KNOB,

RK0487'HIGHEST HILL IN VICINITY. MARKED BY BRASS FRUSTUM LEADED INTO SOLID

RK0487'ROCK.

RK0487

RK0487 STATION RECOVERY (1955)

RK0487

RK0487'RECOVERY NOTE BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1955 (NET)

RK0487'STATION MARK WAS RECOVERED AND FOUND IN GOOD CONDITION. REFERENCE

RK0487'MARKS 1 AND 2 AND AN AZIMUTH MARK WERE ESTABLISHED.

RK0487'

RK0487'FOLLOWING IS A NEW DESCRIPTION--

RK0487'

RK0487'THE STATION IS ALONG THE WESTERN SIDE OF SECTION 31, T. 49 N., R. 25

RK0487'W., ON THE TOP OF A ROCKY MOUNTAIN KNOWN LOCALLY AS HOGSBACK

RK0487'MOUNTAIN. IT IS APPROXIMATELY 12 MILES NORTHWEST OF MARQUETTE, 2.5

RK0487'MILES SOUTH-SOUTHWEST OF GRANITE POINT, 1.75 MILES WEST OF

RK0487'SUGAR LOAF MOUNTAIN AND ON THE EASTERN ONE OF THREE SEPARATE

RK0487'SUMMITS. WEST OF THE STATION ABOUT 1/4 MILE IS A CONICAL SHAPED,

RK0487'TIMBER COVERED HILL WHICH, BECAUSE OF THE TIMBER, APPEARS HIGHER

RK0487'THAN THE STATION HILL. BETWEEN THIS HILL AND THE STATION HILL

RK0487'THERE IS A ROCKY KNOLL SLIGHTLY LOWER THAN THE STATION HILL

RK0487'AND SEPARATED FROM THE STATION BY A NARROW VALLEY ABOUT 150 FEET

RK0487'WIDE. THE STATION IS ON THE WESTERN SIDE OF THE EASTERN SUMMIT.

RK0487'THIS HILL HAS STEEP ROCKY SIDES, A FLAT TOP AND SOME TREES IN THE

RK0487'CENTER OF THE TOP.

RK0487'

RK0487'TO REACH FROM THE UNION NATIONAL BANK AT THE POINT WHERE U.S. HIGHWAY

RK0487'41 AND STATE HIGHWAY 28 TURN SOUTH IN THE EASTERN EDGE OF MARQUETTE

RK0487'(JUNCTION OF WASHINGTON AND FRONT STREETS), GO NORTH ON FRONT

RK0487'STREET FOR 0.9 MILE TO THE END OF THE STREET AND A T-INTERSECTION.

RK0487'TURN LEFT ON FAIR AVENUE AND GO 0.2 MILE TO A T-INTERSECTION,

RK0487'TURN RIGHT AND GO NORTH ON PRESQUE ISLE 0.5 MILE TO A CROSS

RK0487'STREET, TURN LEFT AND GO WEST ON WRIGHT FOR 0.45 MILE TO SUGAR LOAF

RK0487'ROAD (ALSO COUNTY ROAD 550). TURN RIGHT AND GO NORTH ON COUNTY

RK0487'ROAD 550 FOR 4.0 MILES TO THE PARKING SPACE AT THE FOOT OF SUGAR LOAF

RK0487'MOUNTAIN. FROM HERE THERE ARE TWO TRAILS LEADING TO THE SUMMIT

RK0487'OF THE MOUNTAIN AND THE AZIMUTH MARK. ONE IS MARKED STEEP CLIMB,

RK0487'THE OTHER EASY CLIMB. THE STEEP CLIMB IS FASTER, ABOUT FIFTEEN

RK0487'MINUTE PACK TO THE TOP. CONTINUE NORTHWESTERLY ON COUNTY ROAD

RK0487'550 FOR 1.1 MILE TO A CROSSROAD, TURN LEFT AND FOLLOW MAIN

RK0487'TRAVELLED ROAD WEST-SOUTHWEST FOR 0.9 MILE TO A FORK, TAKE LEFT

RK0487'FORK AND GO 0.1 MILE TO A RAILROAD TRACK, CROSS RAILROAD TRACK

RK0487'AND CONTINUE ON TRACK ROAD 1.3 MILES TO A FORK AND A U.S.G.S.

RK0487'MARK, TURN LEFT AND GO 0.1 MILE TO A FORK, KEEP LEFT FORK, UP HILL

RK0487'AND GO 0.15 MILE TO A POINT WHERE THE ROAD CURVES RIGHT AND A

RK0487'DRIVEWAY TO A CABIN STRAIGHT AHEAD, CONTINUE EASTERLY ABOUT 100 FEET

RK0487'TO THE CABIN AND THE END OF TRUCK TRAVEL. FROM HERE THE

RK0487'TREE-COVERED KNOLL IS VISIBLE THROUGH THE TREES, PACK EAST-BY-NORTH,

RK0487'PASSING AROUND THE NORTH SIDE OF THE TIMBERED KNOLL, BEAR

RK0487'SOUTHEAST TO THE STEEP ROCKY SIDES OF THE RIDGE EAST OF THE

RK0487'TIMBERED KNOLL, FOLLOW ALONG THE STEEP SIDE OF THE FIRST KNOLL

RK0487'TO A RAVINE ABOUT 100 FEET WIDE DIVIDING THE FIRST BARE ROCKY

RK0487'KNOLL FROM THE SECOND, CROSS THE RAVINE, ASCEND THE STEEP ROCKY

RK0487'SIDE OF THE SECOND KNOLL TO THE SUMMIT AND THE STATION ON THE

RK0487'HIGHEST POINT ALONG THE WEST SIDE. ABOUT A HALF-HOUR PACK. A

RK0487'TRAIL WAS BLAZED FROM THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE CABIN AT THE END

RK0487'OF TRUCK TRAVEL.

RK0487'

RK0487'STATION MARK IS A NAIL LEADED IN A DRILL HOLE. IT IS 37 FEET WEST

RK0487'SOUTHWEST OF A 4 INCH PINE TREE WITH A TRIANGLE BLAZE ON THE WEST

RK0487'SIDE, 18 FEET SOUTHWEST OF THE NORTHEAST EDGE OF BEDROCK OUTCROP

RK0487'AND 10 FEET SOUTHEAST OF THE NORTHWEST EDGE OF CLIFF.

RK0487'

RK0487'REFERENCE MARK NO. 1, A STANDARD DISK, STAMPED TRILOBA U.S.L.S. NO 1

RK0487'1955, IS CEMENTED IN A DRILL HOLE IN BEDROCK. IT IS 22 FEET

RK0487'WEST-SOUTHWEST OF A 4 INCH PINE TREE WITH A TRIANGLE BLAZE ON THE

RK0487'WEST SIDE AND 3 FEET SOUTHWEST OF THE NORTHEAST EDGE OF BEDROCK

RK0487'OUTCROP.

RK0487'

RK0487'REFERENCE MARK NO. 2, A STANDARD DISK, STAMPED TRILOBA U.S.L.S. NO 2

RK0487'1955, IS CEMENTED IN A DRILL HOLE IN BEDROCK. IT IS 45 FEET SOUTH

RK0487'OF A 4 INCH PINE TREE WITH A TRIANGLE BLAZE ON THE WEST SIDE OF TREE

RK0487'AND 19 FEET NORTHEAST OF THE SOUTHEAST EDGE OF BEDROCK.

RK0487'

RK0487'AZIMUTH MARK, A STANDARD DISK, STAMPED TRILOBA U.S.L.S. 1955, IS

RK0487'CEMENTED IN A DRILL HOLE IN BEDROCK. IT IS 89 FEET WEST-SOUTHWEST

RK0487'OF THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF A STONE MONUMENT FOR A BARTLETT KING, 17

RK0487'FEET WEST OF THE LAST FLIGHT OF STAIRS AND 10 FEET NORTH OF THE

RK0487'SOUTH EDGE OF CLIFF.

RK0487'

RK0487'THE AZIMUTH MARK IS VISIBLE FROM THE GROUND AT THE STATION BUT TREES

RK0487'ON THE STATION HILL MAY REQUIRE TOPPING IN LATER YEARS.

RK0487'

RK0487'THE STATION WAS ASSUMED TO HAVE BEEN RECOVERED WHEN THE O-PARTY

RK0487'OCCUPIED THIS STATION. THE MARK WHICH WAS OCCUPIED WAS A NAIL

RK0487'LEADED INTO A DRILL HOLE IN SOLID ROCK (ALTHO THE ORIGINAL

RK0487'DESCRIPTION DESCRIBES THE MARK AS A BRASS

RK0487'FRUSTUM LEADED INTO A DRILL HOLE IN SOLID ROCK).

RK0487'WHEN COMPUTATIONS WERE FINISHED ON THE STATION IT WAS DETERMINED

RK0487'THAT THE POINT OCCUPIED DIFFERED FROM THE OLD GEOGRAPHIC POSITION BY

RK0487'42.32 METERS LONGITUDE AND 8.18 METERS LATITUDE. THE OLD STATION

RK0487'BEING NORTH AND EAST OF THE POINT OCCUPIED. WHEN THIS WAS

RK0487'DISCOVERED, A MAN WAS SENT BACK TO THE STATION TO DETERMINE IF THE

RK0487'MARK FOUND WAS A BRASS FRUSTUM OR A NAIL AND TO SEARCH FOR A

RK0487'SIMILAR MARK IN THE VICINITY OF THE LOCATION GIVEN ABOVE. IT WAS

RK0487'DETERMINED THAT THE MARK OCCUPIED WAS NOT BRASS BUT WAS IRON OR STEEL

RK0487'LEADED INTO THE DRILL HOLE. A SEARCH OF THE AREA INDICATED

RK0487'DID NOT REVEAL ANOTHER MARK BUT A HOLE WHICH APPEARED TO BE A DRILL

RK0487'HOLE WAS FOUND IN A BOULDER. WHETHER THIS BOULDER HAD BEEN

RK0487'BEDROCK AND HAD BECOME SEPARATED COULD NOT BE DETERMINED. NO LEAD OR

RK0487'BRASS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN USED IN THE MARK WAS FOUND. TIME DID NOT

RK0487'PERMIT FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

---

[eahousley]

Most of the "to reach" instructions in my county give directions from a major intersection, or from another nearby benchmark. I generally ignore the "to reach" descriptions as I'm more interested in the landmarks in the general vicinity.

 

If you are going to be placing any markers near a road, PLEASE measure its distance from the center line, not the edge. Markers near an uncurbed road tend to get buried and roads get widened. I had three benchmarks this week that took me a long time to find, even with a witness post, because the road had been widened. One was so close that I had to tunnel under the pavement to recover it.

 

-- Its from aliens. I seen um. --

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Yes I think they did know that we would be using it in 2003.The Analysis goes on to say that These Townships and Range Lines ,crossing each other,form squares called Townships which are 6 miles square as can be possible to make them.These Townships are a very important feature in locating or describing LAND. And make it readily available to find by merely counting the number indicated from the Base Line and Principal Meridian.

 

THE MOST DANGEROUS ANIMAL IN THE FOREST DOES NOT EVEN LIVE THERE*********WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" 200TH ANNIVERSARY AND THE "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

[NothingBetterToDo]

I haven't hunted for many, but I have been acumulating datasheets in preparation for a marathon day of mark hunting this coming weekend, and here's my thoughts. Keep in mind that these are the thoughts of just me, hobbyist benchmarker, giving a biased opinion as to how to make it easier for us. Requirements of your real target audience might be different..

 

1. Be descriptive, avoid abbreviating and using shorthand on everything. AH8961 is a good example of a very hard to read description, as well as some of the "don't"s listed below.

 

2. Since power poles are a dime a dozen, if it doesn't give a distinct description of the pole, such as a pole number or ID placard, I find these "distances from the power pole" useless, and often confusing.

 

3. When giving distances from larger objects (like roads), be sure to describe what PART of the object the distance was taken from, like someone mentioned earlier. Being accurate to the fraction of a foot doesn't help when you're not sure what part of a 40-foot highway the distance is from.

 

4. When giving distances from linear objects like roads and fences, give the distance in a direction perpendicular to that object's line. Too many times I've seen descriptions say "xxx feet northwest of the centerline of highway xx", when highway xx in the area of the mark is due east-west. I've not been able to figure out that one yet.

 

Another idea that I've never seen before but might make it easier in some circumstances... in addition to a detailed description with exact distances from this or that, how about a general description, when the landmarks around it allow? An example: "From the intersection of highways x and y, look for the witness post on the small hill on the northwest corner." Too unprofessional sounding? I dunno, I'm not a surveyor, just a guy with...

 

NothingBetterToDo