Hybrid letterboxing

[+cx1]

I finally logged one and now am thinking about placing one locally so people don't have to drive 100 miles to get one. Plus I though it was a nice change from standard caching.

 

Anyway, I have a question or two about them.

 

1. Is requiring a stamp in the log book an ALR?

Can the cache owner of a hybrid letterbox delete logs that don't have a stamped log?

 

2. Can the hybrid letterbox contain components of other cache types and still be listed as a hybrid?

For example could it have a puzzle to solve to get the actual coordinates or be set up like a multi with the letterbox at the end and still be listed as a hybrid?

 

Thanks

[+narcissa]

We have some neat letterboxes around here. My partner particularly enjoys creating them. Check these ones out for some ideas:

 

GC1QQN7

 

GC1MEA4

 

And, his personal favourite:

 

GC1R1JK

 

Requiring a stamp to log it would be an ALR, but the cache must contain a stamp to be a Letterbox Hybrid.

[+Printess Caroline]

My first letterbox was a multi with puzzle elements. I explained the situation in the description. People seemed to like it.

 

Prints, Chaws

 

(added link)

Edited May 4, 2010 by Printess Caroline

[+dfx]

1. Is requiring a stamp in the log book an ALR?

Can the cache owner of a hybrid letterbox delete logs that don't have a stamped log?

to my understanding you cannot require people to stamp the log. "hybrid" means it's a bit of both, letterbox and geocache. geocachers don't have to stamp the log for geocaches, so you can't have that as requirement for a hybrid.

 

2. Can the hybrid letterbox contain components of other cache types and still be listed as a hybrid?

For example could it have a puzzle to solve to get the actual coordinates or be set up like a multi with the letterbox at the end and still be listed as a hybrid?

yes, letterbox hybrid can pretty much contain elements of all other cache types.

Edited May 4, 2010 by dfx

[+cx1]

Thank you all for the information.

[+palmetto]

Your letterbox hybrid as published on Geocaching.com can be in the form of a traditional, cache at coords containing stamp, or as a multi-cache, or as a Mystery.

 

Be sure to "involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues". http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#letterbox

Coords for a parking lot, or park entrance, and then clues from there will not be enough GPS use for the cache to be published here.

 

"using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions."

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#guide

[+L0ne.R]

I finally logged one and now am thinking about placing one locally so people don't have to drive 100 miles to get one. Plus I though it was a nice change from standard caching.

 

Anyway, I have a question or two about them.

 

1. Is requiring a stamp in the log book an ALR?

Can the cache owner of a hybrid letterbox delete logs that don't have a stamped log?

 

Yes that would be an ALR.

 

What are you using for a stamp? Letterboxing is very much about the stamp in the box - make it relate to the location or the theme of the box. Example: if you're planting in a park called "Jerry Fox Memorial Park" consider planting a fox stamp. Also consider carving your own stamp to make it a one-of-a-kind stamp - for those who like collecting letterbox stamp images it'll make the find special.

 

The thing I find most disappointing is a commercial stamp in the box that has nothing to do with the theme or location - just some old stamp in the kids toybox that the CO found and decided he'd throw it into a container and call it a letterbox hybrid.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Lone R

[+briansnat]

I finally logged one and now am thinking about placing one locally so people don't have to drive 100 miles to get one. Plus I though it was a nice change from standard caching.

 

Anyway, I have a question or two about them.

 

1. Is requiring a stamp in the log book an ALR?

Can the cache owner of a hybrid letterbox delete logs that don't have a stamped log?

 

2. Can the hybrid letterbox contain components of other cache types and still be listed as a hybrid?

For example could it have a puzzle to solve to get the actual coordinates or be set up like a multi with the letterbox at the end and still be listed as a hybrid?

 

Thanks

 

1. No. Most geocachers do not carry stamps so that is an unrealistic requirement and if you try to force them to by deleting logs it becomes an illegal ALR

 

2. The only thing you need to call it a letterbox hybrid is a stamp inside. It could be set up as a traditional cache at the posted coordinates (at one time this was a requirement), as a multi or a puzzle cache. Put a stamp in it and it becomes a LB hybrid.

 

Letterbox hybrids seem to cause the most confusion. The thing to remember is that a LB hybrid is geocache AND a letterbox, not a geocache that is LIKE a letterbox. From a geocacher's standpoint, other than the icon, a LB hybrid is no different than any other cache. Take the stamp out and you have a traditional, puzzle or multi cache. Put a stamp in it and presto! you have a LB hybrid.

[GermanSailor]

2. The only thing you need to call it a letterbox hybrid is a stamp inside. It could be set up as a traditional cache at the posted coordinates (at one time this was a requirement), as a multi or a puzzle cache. Put a stamp in it and it becomes a LB hybrid.

Guidelines

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues. Whether or not the letterbox hybrid contains trade items is up to the owner. In most cases personal stamp and personal logbook are not necessary to be a seeker of a letterbox hybrid.

 

Does should contain constitute a mandatory requirement?

 

GermanSailor

[+NeecesandNephews]

2. The only thing you need to call it a letterbox hybrid is a stamp inside. It could be set up as a traditional cache at the posted coordinates (at one time this was a requirement), as a multi or a puzzle cache. Put a stamp in it and it becomes a LB hybrid.

Guidelines

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues. Whether or not the letterbox hybrid contains trade items is up to the owner. In most cases personal stamp and personal logbook are not necessary to be a seeker of a letterbox hybrid.

 

Does should contain constitute a mandatory requirement?

 

GermanSailor

 

Don't know about the "mandatory" part but without the stamp why call it a Letterbox?? Not being sarcastic, I am interested in what constitutes the designation myself.

[+L0ne.R]

Letterbox hybrids seem to cause the most confusion. The thing to remember is that a LB hybrid is geocache AND a letterbox, not a geocache that is LIKE a letterbox. From a geocacher's standpoint, other than the icon, a LB hybrid is no different than any other cache. Take the stamp out and you have a traditional, puzzle or multi cache. Put a stamp in it and presto! you have a LB hybrid.

 

They sure do cause a lot of confusion - with hiders, finders and reviewers. Over time I've come to wish that they'd get rid of the cache type and create a searchable letterbox attribute (perhaps an image of a old fashioned stamp with a handle on it). And that's coming from someone with about 15 letterbox hybrid hides (on our team account).

[+L0ne.R]

2. The only thing you need to call it a letterbox hybrid is a stamp inside. It could be set up as a traditional cache at the posted coordinates (at one time this was a requirement), as a multi or a puzzle cache. Put a stamp in it and it becomes a LB hybrid.

Guidelines

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues. Whether or not the letterbox hybrid contains trade items is up to the owner. In most cases personal stamp and personal logbook are not necessary to be a seeker of a letterbox hybrid.

 

Does should contain constitute a mandatory requirement?

 

GermanSailor

 

Don't know about the "mandatory" part but without the stamp why call it a Letterbox?? Not being sarcastic, I am interested in what constitutes the designation myself.

 

Yet another thing that's confusing about letterboxes, the guidelines. I've been told on the forums that reviewers know that "should contain" really means "must contain".

[+L0ne.R]

2. The only thing you need to call it a letterbox hybrid is a stamp inside. It could be set up as a traditional cache at the posted coordinates (at one time this was a requirement), as a multi or a puzzle cache. Put a stamp in it and it becomes a LB hybrid.

Guidelines

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues. Whether or not the letterbox hybrid contains trade items is up to the owner. In most cases personal stamp and personal logbook are not necessary to be a seeker of a letterbox hybrid.

 

Does should contain constitute a mandatory requirement?

 

GermanSailor

 

Don't know about the "mandatory" part but without the stamp why call it a Letterbox?? Not being sarcastic, I am interested in what constitutes the designation myself.

 

Correct. Without the stamp then it should be listed as a puzzle cache, traditional, or multi (depending on how you expect the finder to get to the cache).

[+briansnat]

2. The only thing you need to call it a letterbox hybrid is a stamp inside. It could be set up as a traditional cache at the posted coordinates (at one time this was a requirement), as a multi or a puzzle cache. Put a stamp in it and it becomes a LB hybrid.

Guidelines

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues. Whether or not the letterbox hybrid contains trade items is up to the owner. In most cases personal stamp and personal logbook are not necessary to be a seeker of a letterbox hybrid.

 

Does should contain constitute a mandatory requirement?

 

GermanSailor

 

It's about as close to mandatory as you can get. If there is no stamp then it is not a letterbox. If its not a letterbox then it can't be a letterbox hybrid.

[+cx1]

So I should (basically must) have a stamp in the cache but I can't require the finder to have a stamp. I figured the whole point of them was to involve people with the stamps so I went and bought one before finding a hybrid.

Oh well, strongly suggesting someone having their own stamp is ok right?

[+briansnat]

So I should (basically must) have a stamp in the cache but I can't require the finder to have a stamp. I figured the whole point of them was to involve people with the stamps so I went and bought one before finding a hybrid.

Oh well, strongly suggesting someone having their own stamp is ok right?

 

That is correct. You can't require that the finder have a stamp. You miss the point of a LB hybrid. It was not to involve geocachers with letterboxing, it was to make geocaches available letterboxers.

[+L0ne.R]

So I should (basically must) have a stamp in the cache but I can't require the finder to have a stamp. I figured the whole point of them was to involve people with the stamps so I went and bought one before finding a hybrid.

Oh well, strongly suggesting someone having their own stamp is ok right?

 

If you begrudge having to put a stamp in the box you may want to re-think putting out a letterbox. The whole point of letterboxing is the stamp image in your logbook is proof that you visited the box. That's why it's nice when that stamp is something unique to that letterbox, not something anyone can buy from Michaels or the dollar store. Even those who only play the letterbox game, don't use a stamp to sign the logbook - usually newbies who are testing the waters and haven't figured out what they'd like to use as their signature stamp.

[+GeoGeeBee]

So I should (basically must) have a stamp in the cache but I can't require the finder to have a stamp. I figured the whole point of them was to involve people with the stamps so I went and bought one before finding a hybrid.

Oh well, strongly suggesting someone having their own stamp is ok right?

 

If you begrudge having to put a stamp in the box you may want to re-think putting out a letterbox.

 

I don't know how you got that from what cx1 wrote. It sounds to me more like cx1 wants to require finders to have a stamp... he's saying that he acquired a stamp before ever searching out a letterbox hybrid, and assumed that others would, as well.

[+cx1]

 

I don't know how you got that from what cx1 wrote. It sounds to me more like cx1 wants to require finders to have a stamp... he's saying that he acquired a stamp before ever searching out a letterbox hybrid, and assumed that others would, as well.

 

Quite well said. Having the stamp for the finder, and getting stamps in the log to me seemed the point of the letterbox hybrid. Since it is also a geocache I would not, and had not planned on deleting 'found' logs of people who did not acquire a stamp. It seemed like an ALR to require one to me so I asked about it.

But I would prefer if people did stamp the log.

[+L0ne.R]

I don't know how you got that from what cx1 wrote. It sounds to me more like cx1 wants to require finders to have a stamp... he's saying that he acquired a stamp before ever searching out a letterbox hybrid, and assumed that others would, as well.

 

It's just the way I read this sentence:

 

So I should (basically must) have a stamp in the cache but I can't require the finder to have a stamp.

 

the "(basically must)" seemed like a disgruntle to me, but I see in cx1's next post that he doesn't feel that it's not fair that he has to provide a stamp image but finders don't. That's good.

[+cx1]

 

It's just the way I read this sentence:

 

So I should (basically must) have a stamp in the cache but I can't require the finder to have a stamp.

 

the "(basically must)" seemed like a disgruntle to me, but I see in cx1's next post that he doesn't feel that it's not fair that he has to provide a stamp image but finders don't. That's good.

 

I worded it that way to acknowledge the point made earlier that while the guidelines only state 'should' it in fact means 'must'

 

Sorry if that was confusing. There was no disgruntled feelings about the stamp being in the box.

 

In fact I am researching how to make a custom stamp for this cache. The cache lends itself perfectly to having a unique stamp in it. However due to very limited artistic ability I am somewhat concerned how well this part will turn out.

[+Trekkin' and birdin']

However due to very limited artistic ability I am somewhat concerned how well this part will turn out.

 

As someone with 94 hybrid finds in our profile, and also pure letterbox finds on the LBNA site, I will say that artistic ability or not, your efforts WILL be appreciated by those of us who like the letterboxing aspect. All of the hybrids we've placed, which I think is about 8 so far, have carved stamps. I'm in complete agreement with the other poster who suggested that a carved stamp related to the hide is what sets these apart. The sad part is, even with labeling them right on the stamp (not a trade item, do not remove) the danger is there for them to be taken as trade items. I have had to carve a new stamp once for this reason.

[Gamma Ray]

With letterboxes should you also put in inkpad in? or is it up to the cacher to bring one?

[Mr.Yuck]

With letterboxes should you also put in inkpad in? or is it up to the cacher to bring one?

 

Well, with "real" Letterboxes listed on Letterboxing websites, it is almost always up to the finder to bring their own inkpad. But most Geocachers are not Letterboxers, so I'd think it's a good idea to put it in the Geocache.

 

Either way, I will defer to whatever The Lone R says on the matter.

[GermanSailor]

Don't know about the "mandatory" part but without the stamp why call it a Letterbox?? Not being sarcastic, I am interested in what constitutes the designation myself.

To me, but I'm not a native speaker - that's why I'm asking - Letterbox-HYBRID-Geocaches (we are not talking about original letterboxes here) are found with a GPSr and using clues.

 

So the part about the clues is what makes a letterbox-hybrid-geocache. A stamp might be a nice add-on, but is it really requiered?

 

GermanSailor

[+dfx]

To me, but I'm not a native speaker - that's why I'm asking - Letterbox-HYBRID-Geocaches (we are not talking about original letterboxes here) are found with a GPSr and using clues.

 

So the part about the clues is what makes a letterbox-hybrid-geocache. A stamp might be a nice add-on, but is it really requiered?

as somebody else mentioned, yes, as "hybrid" means it's a combination of two things. a letterbox hybrid therefore is both a letterbox and a geocache. letterboxes have stamps, so a letterbox hybrid also needs a stamp (otherwise it would be only a geocache). and yes, the other part of the hybrid also means that GPS has to come into play in finding the letterbox somehow, because if it doesn't, then it's only a letterbox and not a geocache.

Edited May 6, 2010 by dfx

[GermanSailor]

Does should contain constitute a mandatory requirement?

It's about as close to mandatory as you can get. If there is no stamp then it is not a letterbox. If its not a letterbox then it can't be a letterbox hybrid.

Thank you!

 

GermanSailor

[+L0ne.R]

With letterboxes should you also put in inkpad in? or is it up to the cacher to bring one?

 

Well, with "real" Letterboxes listed on Letterboxing websites, it is almost always up to the finder to bring their own inkpad. But most Geocachers are not Letterboxers, so I'd think it's a good idea to put it in the Geocache.

 

Either way, I will defer to whatever The Lone R says on the matter.

 

Oh geez TWU, I'm flattered.

 

In the beginning (years ago) I would leave a small inkpad or a pipsqueak crayola marker. Now I don't because if water gets into the box, the ink will make a mess of everything. I've slowly been changing all my cache containers to lock n locks but even lock n locks can have water mishaps if someone snags a bit of the ziplock bag between the lid and the container.

 

Anyone who's serious about collecting stamp images will be carrying their own ink, (I carry a pencil box full of markers so I've got all the colours I need).

 

I also found that when you leave ink, cachers who don't understand what letterboxing is will take the letterbox's stamp, ink it up, and stamp it into the letterbox's logbook. Not that that's a problem, it's just unnecessary.

 

You could always mention in your LB Hybrid description to BYOI - bring your own ink.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

When I hid my hybrid, I have a logbook and a separate box within it for the letterboxing. The geocachers are encouraged to participate in the letterbox journal (by writing their name or trail name) and the Letterboxers are encouraged to write in the logbook... but neither is required to participate in the other activity if they don't want to participate.

[+briansnat]

Don't know about the "mandatory" part but without the stamp why call it a Letterbox?? Not being sarcastic, I am interested in what constitutes the designation myself.

To me, but I'm not a native speaker - that's why I'm asking - Letterbox-HYBRID-Geocaches (we are not talking about original letterboxes here) are found with a GPSr and using clues.

 

So the part about the clues is what makes a letterbox-hybrid-geocache. A stamp might be a nice add-on, but is it really requiered?

 

GermanSailor

That is a misunderstanding. The clues are not what makes it a letterbox hybrid. Many letterbox hybrids are found at the posted coordinates and have no clues at all (at least on this site). If you have a cache that uses GPS coordinates and clues, that is an offset or multi cache. Put a stamp in it and you have a letterbox hybrid. If you have a cache at the posted coordinates it is a traditional. Put a stamp in it and you have a LB hybrid.

 

Another thing that some don't understand is that map coordinates are a valid letterboxing clue. There is nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use map coordinates as a clue and nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use a GPS to navigate to those coordinates. Therefore savvy letterboxers could look here for hybrids and use a GPS (or map and compass) to find them, just as if they were geocachers. I'm sure few do, which is why it would make sense to cross list a LB hybrid on a LB site, because there is no point in creating a LB hybrid if you don't advertise it to LBers.

Edited May 6, 2010 by briansnat

[+L0ne.R]

Don't know about the "mandatory" part but without the stamp why call it a Letterbox?? Not being sarcastic, I am interested in what constitutes the designation myself.

To me, but I'm not a native speaker - that's why I'm asking - Letterbox-HYBRID-Geocaches (we are not talking about original letterboxes here) are found with a GPSr and using clues.

 

So the part about the clues is what makes a letterbox-hybrid-geocache. A stamp might be a nice add-on, but is it really requiered?

 

GermanSailor

That is a misunderstanding. The clues are not what makes it a letterbox hybrid. Many letterbox hybrids are found at the posted coordinates and have no clues at all (at least on this site). If you have a cache that uses GPS coordinates and clues, that is an offset or multi cache. Put a stamp in it and you have a letterbox hybrid. If you have a cache at the posted coordinates it is a traditional. Put a stamp in it and you have a LB hybrid.

 

I think Groundspeak could help clarify things by changing the wording in the guidelines from "should contain" to "must contain". My understanding is the word "should" is used in case the box's stamp goes missing. In that case a box with a missing stamp should be disabled because it no longer fits the definition of a letterbox hybrid, a CO can enable it once the he/she replaces the stamp.

[+Hynz]

That is a misunderstanding. The clues are not what makes it a letterbox hybrid. Many letterbox hybrids are found at the posted coordinates and have no clues at all (at least on this site). If you have a cache that uses GPS coordinates and clues, that is an offset or multi cache. Put a stamp in it and you have a letterbox hybrid. If you have a cache at the posted coordinates it is a traditional. Put a stamp in it and you have a LB hybrid.

 

Another thing that some don't understand is that map coordinates are a valid letterboxing clue. There is nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use map coordinates as a clue and nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use a GPS to navigate to those coordinates. Therefore savvy letterboxers could look here for hybrids and use a GPS (or map and compass) to find them, just as if they were geocachers. I'm sure few do, which is why it would make sense to cross list a LB hybrid on a LB site, because there is no point in creating a LB hybrid if you don't advertise it to LBers.

Thanks for your post.

I also had the impression that the clues are an even more important part of Letterboxing than the stamp.

I always thought that from the viewpoint of a Letterboxer such LB-Hybrids without clues would be considered lame. So it seems that I made wrong assumptions.

[+briansnat]

That is a misunderstanding. The clues are not what makes it a letterbox hybrid. Many letterbox hybrids are found at the posted coordinates and have no clues at all (at least on this site). If you have a cache that uses GPS coordinates and clues, that is an offset or multi cache. Put a stamp in it and you have a letterbox hybrid. If you have a cache at the posted coordinates it is a traditional. Put a stamp in it and you have a LB hybrid.

 

Another thing that some don't understand is that map coordinates are a valid letterboxing clue. There is nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use map coordinates as a clue and nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use a GPS to navigate to those coordinates. Therefore savvy letterboxers could look here for hybrids and use a GPS (or map and compass) to find them, just as if they were geocachers. I'm sure few do, which is why it would make sense to cross list a LB hybrid on a LB site, because there is no point in creating a LB hybrid if you don't advertise it to LBers.

Thanks for your post.

I also had the impression that the clues are an even more important part of Letterboxing than the stamp.

I always thought that from the viewpoint of a Letterboxer such LB-Hybrids without clues would be considered lame. So it seems that I made wrong assumptions.

 

There is nothing keeping a LB hybrid owner from cross posting his cache on a LB site using traditional LB clues. In fact it would make a great deal of sense to do that.

Edited May 19, 2010 by briansnat

[+hukilaulau]

There is nothing keeping a LB hybrid owner from cross posting his cache on a LB site using traditional LB clues. In fact it would make a great deal of sense to do that.

In fact, that's the ONLY thing that makes sense to me. When I found my first LBH geocache it had been a Letterbox before geocaching started, and then the Letterbox owner discovered geocaching and listed the coords on GC.com. That seemed like a great idea and I figured they would all be like that. It was somewhat disappointing to later find geocaches that had a stamp put in the cache but were not really letterboxes.

It might be a good idea to show geocachers what a letterbox might look like but to me it doesn't warrant a different icon unless it really IS a letterbox as well as a geocache.

[+hukilaulau]

If you're interested, here it is, one of my favorite caches of all time, of any kind!

[Mr.Yuck]

There is nothing keeping a LB hybrid owner from cross posting his cache on a LB site using traditional LB clues. In fact it would make a great deal of sense to do that.

In fact, that's the ONLY thing that makes sense to me. When I found my first LBH geocache it had been a Letterbox before geocaching started, and then the Letterbox owner discovered geocaching and listed the coords on GC.com. That seemed like a great idea and I figured they would all be like that. It was somewhat disappointing to later find geocaches that had a stamp put in the cache but were not really letterboxes.

It might be a good idea to show geocachers what a letterbox might look like but to me it doesn't warrant a different icon unless it really IS a letterbox as well as a geocache.

 

Interesting. I looked at your link and the cache, even though it's posted in another post than this one I'm quoting. I have not seen, anywhere remotely close to my home coordinates, a hybrid that is listed here with coordinates, and listed on one or both of the two letterboxing websites with clues. Personally, I think this would go over like a lead balloon over there. We are much much bigger, and generally annoy the hell out of them.

[+Too Tall John]

There is nothing keeping a LB hybrid owner from cross posting his cache on a LB site using traditional LB clues. In fact it would make a great deal of sense to do that.

In fact, that's the ONLY thing that makes sense to me. When I found my first LBH geocache it had been a Letterbox before geocaching started, and then the Letterbox owner discovered geocaching and listed the coords on GC.com. That seemed like a great idea and I figured they would all be like that. It was somewhat disappointing to later find geocaches that had a stamp put in the cache but were not really letterboxes.

It might be a good idea to show geocachers what a letterbox might look like but to me it doesn't warrant a different icon unless it really IS a letterbox as well as a geocache.

Interesting. I looked at your link and the cache, even though it's posted in another post than this one I'm quoting. I have not seen, anywhere remotely close to my home coordinates, a hybrid that is listed here with coordinates, and listed on one or both of the two letterboxing websites with clues. Personally, I think this would go over like a lead balloon over there. We are much much bigger, and generally annoy the hell out of them.

Nah.

 

I've listed this one on a LB site and have gotten nothing but good feedback from the community over there.

[Mr.Yuck]

There is nothing keeping a LB hybrid owner from cross posting his cache on a LB site using traditional LB clues. In fact it would make a great deal of sense to do that.

In fact, that's the ONLY thing that makes sense to me. When I found my first LBH geocache it had been a Letterbox before geocaching started, and then the Letterbox owner discovered geocaching and listed the coords on GC.com. That seemed like a great idea and I figured they would all be like that. It was somewhat disappointing to later find geocaches that had a stamp put in the cache but were not really letterboxes.

It might be a good idea to show geocachers what a letterbox might look like but to me it doesn't warrant a different icon unless it really IS a letterbox as well as a geocache.

Interesting. I looked at your link and the cache, even though it's posted in another post than this one I'm quoting. I have not seen, anywhere remotely close to my home coordinates, a hybrid that is listed here with coordinates, and listed on one or both of the two letterboxing websites with clues. Personally, I think this would go over like a lead balloon over there. We are much much bigger, and generally annoy the hell out of them.

Nah.

 

I've listed this one on a LB site and have gotten nothing but good feedback from the community over there.

 

Looks pretty good. But your only public comment is by someone who isn't exactly a rabid old school letterboxer.

 

I might try the first "real" letterbox hybrid in my area. I need to master this carving thing first though. Joined AQ in 2005, found and stamped 1 box, DNF'd a couple others. Now I have 21 AQ finds in the last 2 months. Like I need another hobby.

[+geodarts]

That is a misunderstanding. The clues are not what makes it a letterbox hybrid. Many letterbox hybrids are found at the posted coordinates and have no clues at all (at least on this site).

 

I realize that that this is the prevailing view at Groundspeak. But at the same time, perhaps because letterboxing evolved long before the gps was even a thought, clues are what have defined the letterboxing experience. And to my mind they are what make it fun (and distinct from caching). I might do a cache that involves just the coordinates, with a box containing a stamp, as I would any other cache. But I would not go out of my way to find it like I do for a letterbox-hybrid that offers clues. When I see a "letterbox" with just the coordinates, I assume that the person simply wanted the icon, without putting much thought into it. If I were primarily a letterboxer, it might be annoying.

 

Letterboxing clues, of course, can be based on a number of methods. Puzzles. Stories. Use of a compass. Express directions. But following a set of clues rather than just finding a box with a stamp in it is as important to letterboxing as use of a gpsr is to caching. Although I have found traditionals/multis/mystery caches that use letterbox style clues -- stories, directions, photos, art -- including caches in areas where gps reception is spotty, so the dividing line is not always clear.

 

I have three letterbox-caches. Two of them are cross listed and I wanted to make sure that the experience was similar for both groups -- that the find from either end would take people through a similar adventure regardless of the listing. In the ones that are cross-listed, I have a book for letterboxing stamps that is distinct from the caching log. And in the last one I had published, I put in a separate "stash note" describing letterboxing, in addition to the one that explains geocaching. At the very least, it might be helpful for geocachers who are not familiar with letterboxing. When I next check on the first one I will bring a letterboxing note to add that to the container.

 

I have had letterboxers thank me for making sure that things are complete from their end, which they state does not always happen with the cross-over caches.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Erickson

[+briansnat]

I realize that that this is the prevailing view at Groundspeak. But at the same time, perhaps because letterboxing evolved long before the gps was even a thought, clues are what have defined the letterboxing experience. And to my mind they are what make it fun (and distinct from caching). I might do a cache that involves just the coordinates, with a box containing a stamp, as I would any other cache. But I would not go out of my way to find it like I do for a letterbox-hybrid that offers clues. When I see a "letterbox" with just the coordinates, I assume that the person simply wanted the icon, without putting much thought into it. If I were primarily a letterboxer, it might be annoying..

 

Clues indeed define the letterboxing experience the same way that coordinates define the geocaching experience. But the point of LB hybrids was not to provide geocachers with a letterboxing like experience. It was to give geocachers an opportunity to place a cache that is also a letterbox. From a geocacher's standpoint it's a geocache. From a letterboxers standpoint its a letterbox. That is why the stamp is required and why it needs to be referenced by coordinates in some manner.

 

You cross listed yours which makes sense, but there is no need to make the experience similar for both groups. Doing so is purely optional.

[toczygroszek]

Don't know about the "mandatory" part but without the stamp why call it a Letterbox?? Not being sarcastic, I am interested in what constitutes the designation myself.

To me, but I'm not a native speaker - that's why I'm asking - Letterbox-HYBRID-Geocaches (we are not talking about original letterboxes here) are found with a GPSr and using clues.

 

So the part about the clues is what makes a letterbox-hybrid-geocache. A stamp might be a nice add-on, but is it really requiered?

 

GermanSailor

That is a misunderstanding. The clues are not what makes it a letterbox hybrid. Many letterbox hybrids are found at the posted coordinates and have no clues at all (at least on this site). If you have a cache that uses GPS coordinates and clues, that is an offset or multi cache. Put a stamp in it and you have a letterbox hybrid. If you have a cache at the posted coordinates it is a traditional. Put a stamp in it and you have a LB hybrid.

 

Another thing that some don't understand is that map coordinates are a valid letterboxing clue. There is nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use map coordinates as a clue and nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use a GPS to navigate to those coordinates. Therefore savvy letterboxers could look here for hybrids and use a GPS (or map and compass) to find them, just as if they were geocachers. I'm sure few do, which is why it would make sense to cross list a LB hybrid on a LB site, because there is no point in creating a LB hybrid if you don't advertise it to LBers.

 

So please explain me, why I had problems to publish this cache:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...d4205&log=y

The problem with that chace was "where is a clue?". Originally there was instruction to find 2nd stage "Now go to the cemetery and find on a fence a plaque commemorating Franz Hofer (to the right form the central cross)." and reviewer questioned it. So I changed to "Now go to the central cross on the back of the cemetery and then to the right along a fence and you will find a plaque commemorating Franz Hofer." and was OK. I was really confused, because is no really difference for me, an that dealyed publication of my cache 3 weeks (even if one week is normal waiting time for publication of cache in Poland). In my opinion cules are integral part of letterbox-hybrid, but I will happy with any official clarification.

[+briansnat]

Don't know about the "mandatory" part but without the stamp why call it a Letterbox?? Not being sarcastic, I am interested in what constitutes the designation myself.

To me, but I'm not a native speaker - that's why I'm asking - Letterbox-HYBRID-Geocaches (we are not talking about original letterboxes here) are found with a GPSr and using clues.

 

So the part about the clues is what makes a letterbox-hybrid-geocache. A stamp might be a nice add-on, but is it really requiered?

 

GermanSailor

That is a misunderstanding. The clues are not what makes it a letterbox hybrid. Many letterbox hybrids are found at the posted coordinates and have no clues at all (at least on this site). If you have a cache that uses GPS coordinates and clues, that is an offset or multi cache. Put a stamp in it and you have a letterbox hybrid. If you have a cache at the posted coordinates it is a traditional. Put a stamp in it and you have a LB hybrid.

 

Another thing that some don't understand is that map coordinates are a valid letterboxing clue. There is nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use map coordinates as a clue and nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use a GPS to navigate to those coordinates. Therefore savvy letterboxers could look here for hybrids and use a GPS (or map and compass) to find them, just as if they were geocachers. I'm sure few do, which is why it would make sense to cross list a LB hybrid on a LB site, because there is no point in creating a LB hybrid if you don't advertise it to LBers.

 

So please explain me, why I had problems to publish this cache:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...d4205&log=y

The problem with that chace was "where is a clue?". Originally there was instruction to find 2nd stage "Now go to the cemetery and find on a fence a plaque commemorating Franz Hofer (to the right form the central cross)." and reviewer questioned it. So I changed to "Now go to the central cross on the back of the cemetery and then to the right along a fence and you will find a plaque commemorating Franz Hofer." and was OK. I was really confused, because is no really difference for me, an that dealyed publication of my cache 3 weeks (even if one week is normal waiting time for publication of cache in Poland). In my opinion cules are integral part of letterbox-hybrid, but I will happy with any official clarification.

 

I have no idea what transpired between you and your reviewer. The fact of the matter is that a letterbox hybrid does not require clues. All it requires is a stamp for it to be a LB hybrid.

[Mr.Yuck]

Don't know about the "mandatory" part but without the stamp why call it a Letterbox?? Not being sarcastic, I am interested in what constitutes the designation myself.

To me, but I'm not a native speaker - that's why I'm asking - Letterbox-HYBRID-Geocaches (we are not talking about original letterboxes here) are found with a GPSr and using clues.

 

So the part about the clues is what makes a letterbox-hybrid-geocache. A stamp might be a nice add-on, but is it really requiered?

 

GermanSailor

That is a misunderstanding. The clues are not what makes it a letterbox hybrid. Many letterbox hybrids are found at the posted coordinates and have no clues at all (at least on this site). If you have a cache that uses GPS coordinates and clues, that is an offset or multi cache. Put a stamp in it and you have a letterbox hybrid. If you have a cache at the posted coordinates it is a traditional. Put a stamp in it and you have a LB hybrid.

 

Another thing that some don't understand is that map coordinates are a valid letterboxing clue. There is nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use map coordinates as a clue and nothing in the letterboxing world that says you can't use a GPS to navigate to those coordinates. Therefore savvy letterboxers could look here for hybrids and use a GPS (or map and compass) to find them, just as if they were geocachers. I'm sure few do, which is why it would make sense to cross list a LB hybrid on a LB site, because there is no point in creating a LB hybrid if you don't advertise it to LBers.

 

So please explain me, why I had problems to publish this cache:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...d4205&log=y

The problem with that chace was "where is a clue?". Originally there was instruction to find 2nd stage "Now go to the cemetery and find on a fence a plaque commemorating Franz Hofer (to the right form the central cross)." and reviewer questioned it. So I changed to "Now go to the central cross on the back of the cemetery and then to the right along a fence and you will find a plaque commemorating Franz Hofer." and was OK. I was really confused, because is no really difference for me, an that dealyed publication of my cache 3 weeks (even if one week is normal waiting time for publication of cache in Poland). In my opinion cules are integral part of letterbox-hybrid, but I will happy with any official clarification.

 

I have no idea what transpired between you and your reviewer. The fact of the matter is that a letterbox hybrid does not require clues. All it requires is a stamp for it to be a LB hybrid.

 

Just to muddy the waters, I've quite recently seen a couple of caches within 75 miles or so of me listed as Letterbox hybrids specifically because they used clues. And one of them, I kid you not, is a micro. Neither mentions a stamp. Not that I haven't seen real letterboxes that are micros, it's just the first LB hybrid micro I've ever seen on this website.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Just to muddy the waters, I've quite recently seen a couple of caches within 75 miles or so of me listed as Letterbox hybrids specifically because they used clues. And one of them, I kid you not, is a micro. Neither mentions a stamp. Not that I haven't seen real letterboxes that are micros, it's just the first LB hybrid micro I've ever seen on this website.

 

Then you shall just have to find mine. It's actually one of my more popular caches! And it has the handsome bear stamp! I do recall finding one micro letterbox-hybrid.

[+Coldgears]

Your letterbox hybrid as published on Geocaching.com can be in the form of a traditional, cache at coords containing stamp, or as a multi-cache, or as a Mystery.

 

Be sure to "involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues". http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#letterbox

Coords for a parking lot, or park entrance, and then clues from there will not be enough GPS use for the cache to be published here.

 

"using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions."

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#guide

 

Really? There is a letterbox hybrid in my area just like that! It has parking coords and the rest in clues from there. I'd rather not give you a link, I have yet to find it and I don't want it to be archived.

[+briansnat]

Your letterbox hybrid as published on Geocaching.com can be in the form of a traditional, cache at coords containing stamp, or as a multi-cache, or as a Mystery.

 

Be sure to "involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues". http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#letterbox

Coords for a parking lot, or park entrance, and then clues from there will not be enough GPS use for the cache to be published here.

 

"using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions."

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx#guide

 

Really? There is a letterbox hybrid in my area just like that! It has parking coords and the rest in clues from there. I'd rather not give you a link, I have yet to find it and I don't want it to be archived.

 

Palmetto is correct. Because a cache might have been published in error, or perhaps the cache was changed by the CO after it was published it means nothing.

 

As the guidelines state "First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache".

[+geodarts]

Really? There is a letterbox hybrid in my area just like that! It has parking coords and the rest in clues from there.

 

Personally I have never seen why there should be a dstinctiion beween how the gpsr is used to get you to the start of a mystery cache that uses pictures to guide you to the cache location and a letterbox-cache that uses clues once you have reached a particular location. Or for that matter a traditional in an area with spotty gps coverage that uses letterbox-style clues to enable people to find the cache. Or a night cache that uses reflecters to get you to the container.

 

But then again I don't how you can make a cache accessible to letterboxers and not use clues. Although I realize that TPTB define things differently.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Erickson

[+briansnat]

But then again I don't how you can make a cache accessible to letterboxers and not use clues. Although I realize that TPTB define things differently.

 

Ideally you would cross post it on a LB site using clues, then post it here using coordinates in some manner.

[+geodarts]

Ideally you would cross post it on a LB site using clues, then post it here using coordinates in some manner.

 

I understand that but the "some manner" part is where it gets tricky. As I noted, picture caches, night caches, and the like only use a gpsr to get you to the starting point but apparently you have to do more for a letterbox cache. I don't see the distinction, if there truely is one being made,

[+briansnat]

Ideally you would cross post it on a LB site using clues, then post it here using coordinates in some manner.

 

I understand that but the "some manner" part is where it gets tricky. As I noted, picture caches, night caches, and the like only use a gpsr to get you to the starting point but apparently you have to do more for a letterbox cache. I don't see the distinction, if there truely is one being made,

 

You don't have to do anything more for a LB hybrid than you would for any other cache. As far as geocachers are concerned it's just a geocache. Conform to the guidelines and you're set. If you want to call it a LB hybrid however all you need to do is add a stamp.

 

As I explained earlier, a cache where the coords brings you to an object then uses clues to get you to the cache is a multi. Put a stamp in it and you have a LB hybrid. A cache at the posted coordinates is a traditional. Put a stamp in it and you have a LB hybrid.

 

The only requirement that is different for a LB hybrid is the stamp.