FTF..... maybe not

[+IDSTreno]

So I noticed a fresh cache pop up in my mailbox today and without delay rushed out to find it.

 

After spending an hour looking for it and having the coords sitting 40 feet in a lake, I call a friend. He informs me that it has already been found! How in the world? I was at GZ 20 minutes after posting!

 

Well as it turns out, the cacher hid the container 2 years ago but could not get it published because of a distance conflict, yesterday he was at an event in the area and decided to check on it to see if its still there, (don't know why he hadn't retrieved it in that time) He had some geofriends with him who he showed where the cache was, and let them sign the log......

 

When I arrived home I checked the listing to see cache published May 2nd, and three FTF on May 1st

 

Least I can save myself some time in the future, by just staying at home for his postings.

[+thedeadpirate]

Least I can save myself some time in the future, by just staying at home for his postings.

Probably a good idea.

 

*** This post is intended to be somewhat sarcastic. I did attempt to reign it in a bit since the OP is a relatively new cacher.

[+Trav'lin Two]

Recently I complained about caches being logged as a FTF a day before they were published and ask how that could happen.

 

Basically I was told that I was wrong, it couldn't happen that way, I was mistaken, etc.

[+ADTCacheur]

To me, that's cheating. Do that if you want, but will you honestly get satisfaction out of an FTF when the hider brings you out and hands you the log book? Most likely this was just done so that the hider wouldn't need to place a FTF prize...

[+Team Cotati]

I think that it fairly obvious that anyone can log an ftf in advance of it's listing on the site. All that is required is for the CO or a buddy of the CO to learn about the cache placement before it is listed and to tell you. You then go there and sign the logbook.

 

Your signature was the first in the book, therefore you are the ftf. By my measure that is cheating. This is one reason that ftf is not recognized on the site.

 

Physical signing of the logbook is 'proof' of being ftf. The online logging of the event is simply documentary.

 

Until right now, I never realized that you had to include an ftf prize in a cache.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Team Cotati

[+WOLVERINEtheRonin]

I was FTF recently on a friends multi cache. I knew approximately where the final was and what was neccessary to retrieve it but in keeping with the spirit of the game I did the cache as it was intended by the CO. Knowing that there were packs of FTF hounds out to get it I took my chances and was rewarded with both an FTF and the satisfaction of getting the full experience of the cache.

 

Really though I consider all my finds FTF. First TIME Finds for me.

[ao318]

Some CO's will have people test their hides and those people will log as "beta testers" and you will see their names on the log but they will wait for someone to log online before they log their find and they are not considered FTF. Sometimes CO's will hide a cache with someone else with them and let them sign the log and again these people are not considered FTF because they really didn't find anything and also will wait to log online after someone else will log. Sometimes someone will create a cache for someone and let them find it first before they publish they cache because they may have prize for that particular person, so they could have found the cache a day or more before it was published. Then there are those that claim a FTF on whatever they can.

 

The bottom line is, anybody can be FTF and not to worry too much about it because there really aren't any rules to FTF because it isn't officially recognized by GC.com.

[+IDSTreno]

I think that it fairly obvious that anyone can log an ftf in advance of it's listing on the site. All that is required is for the CO or a buddy of the CO to learn about the cache placement before it is listed and to tell you. You then go there and sign the logbook.

 

Your signature was the first in the book, therefore you are the ftf. By my measure that is cheating. This is one reason that ftf is not recognized on the site.

 

Physical signing of the logbook is 'proof' of being ftf. The online logging of the event is simply documentary.

 

Until right now, I never realized that you had to include an ftf prize in a cache.

 

You don't "Have to" include a FTF prize, We typically only do when hiding a truly devious cache,

 

and Geobain, I am aware you can log visits to a cache many days after finding it and I routinely do so, my GPSr keeps track of when I found it, and when I get time to log them on site I do so by the date I found them. My issue with this cache is the fact that both the log book was signed before it was published, AND the coords were in the middle of a lake due to careless posting by the geocacher, He has already gone back and verified them as being 35 feet off. I don't expect coords to be perfect, but the fact he used coords he took 2 years ago on an older model gps, and the fact the book was presigned, made for a pretty miserable time looking for this cache.

 

I could have my friends sign log books before I hide caches, I just wouldn't expect many people to continue to look for mine, I put it in the same category as placing a throwdown and claiming a find when you couldn't find it, Everyone is entitled to their "way" of playing the game, I just consider that "way" to be cheating.

[+buttaskotch]

sounds like sour milk to me. 20 minutes to a cache is not that short a period of time before attempting a DNF these days with apps on Droid and iPhones. And if the cacher was at an event and gave the coords to others at the event and they found it, then in my opinion its fair game. In the grand scheme of things, its just a smiley, there is more to the game than being an FTF

Also, there are times where caches are hidden in honor of an event and don't get published in time and the event organizers give out hand outs of the coords., I don't think that's cheating either

[4wheelin_fool]

So I noticed a fresh cache pop up in my mailbox today and without delay rushed out to find it.

 

After spending an hour looking for it and having the coords sitting 40 feet in a lake, I call a friend. He informs me that it has already been found! How in the world? I was at GZ 20 minutes after posting!

 

Well as it turns out, the cacher hid the container 2 years ago but could not get it published because of a distance conflict, yesterday he was at an event in the area and decided to check on it to see if its still there, (don't know why he hadn't retrieved it in that time) He had some geofriends with him who he showed where the cache was, and let them sign the log......

 

When I arrived home I checked the listing to see cache published May 2nd, and three FTF on May 1st

 

Least I can save myself some time in the future, by just staying at home for his postings.

 

It sounds like you ran out for nothing.

 

However, you should never feel entitled to a FTF. That is an integral part of the quest. There ALWAYS is the chance you were beaten. A FTF is a bonus, and nothing else. (well that's what I would imagine Ayn Rand would say)

[+IDSTreno]

sounds like sour milk to me. 20 minutes to a cache is not that short a period of time before attempting a DNF these days with apps on Droid and iPhones. And if the cacher was at an event and gave the coords to others at the event and they found it, then in my opinion its fair game. In the grand scheme of things, its just a smiley, there is more to the game than being an FTF

Also, there are times where caches are hidden in honor of an event and don't get published in time and the event organizers give out hand outs of the coords., I don't think that's cheating either

 

I was at the cache site in 20 minutes, I was there an hour.

 

and coords weren't given out because the coords were incorrect, the placer SHOWED them where the cache was and was there when they retrieved it, the cache was also placed 2 years ago, the owner just didn't publish it till now because another cache was too close.

 

FTF -- sort of. Just happened to be with "CO" and **** when "CO" said his soon to be published cache was close by.

 

yes the hide date is correct.. I hid this matchstick container a couple years ago... ...but a cache I forgot about was too close and I never made it back til today to see if the container was still around.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

and coords weren't given out because the coords were incorrect, the placer SHOWED them where the cache was and was there when they retrieved it, the cache was also placed 2 years ago, the owner just didn't publish it till now because another cache was too close.

 

So, for two years it was still a geocache. It just wasn't listed on this site. The owner has the option to let anyone find his cache in any manner he chooses...it may not conform to the geocaching.com guidelines and may not be published here, but it's still in place and able to be found...and it was, prior to you finding it after publication.

[+Trucker Lee]

You are truly the first to find. The placer took his friends there and let them sign the log, it might as well been in his living room. They didn't find it, it was put into their hands. Besides, FTF is for the first AFTER publication, otherwise I could let my grand daughter sign a stack of logs next time she is over and she could get FTF while in school.

 

Go back, and if those are the only sigs on the log, clearly and boldly write, "FTF after publication" for all to see.

[+Scubasonic]

Was wondering when a FTF thread was going to pop up.......

 

SS

[Mr.Yuck]

I think that it fairly obvious that anyone can log an ftf in advance of it's listing on the site. All that is required is for the CO or a buddy of the CO to learn about the cache placement before it is listed and to tell you. You then go there and sign the logbook.

 

Your signature was the first in the book, therefore you are the ftf. By my measure that is cheating. This is one reason that ftf is not recognized on the site.

 

Physical signing of the logbook is 'proof' of being ftf. The online logging of the event is simply documentary.

 

Until right now, I never realized that you had to include an ftf prize in a cache.

 

You don't "Have to" include a FTF prize, We typically only do when hiding a truly devious cache,

 

and Geobain, I am aware you can log visits to a cache many days after finding it and I routinely do so, my GPSr keeps track of when I found it, and when I get time to log them on site I do so by the date I found them. My issue with this cache is the fact that both the log book was signed before it was published, AND the coords were in the middle of a lake due to careless posting by the geocacher, He has already gone back and verified them as being 35 feet off. I don't expect coords to be perfect, but the fact he used coords he took 2 years ago on an older model gps, and the fact the book was presigned, made for a pretty miserable time looking for this cache.

 

I could have my friends sign log books before I hide caches, I just wouldn't expect many people to continue to look for mine, I put it in the same category as placing a throwdown and claiming a find when you couldn't find it, Everyone is entitled to their "way" of playing the game, I just consider that "way" to be cheating.

 

As this thread goes on and on, you probably won't be happy with most of the responses. FTF is not officially recognized, blah, blah, blah. But I myself do sympathize with those of you in the teeny percentage of Geocachers who play the FTF game, and I would consider such shenanigans "cheating"

 

Nothing you can do though. As a matter of fact, I list some things in my Geocaching.com profile that annoy me. These include people who talk on their cell phones in public, people who park on the wrong side of the road at night with their car running and the headlights on, chicks who wear baseball caps with a pony tail sticking out of the hole in the back, and clowns. About all you can do is tell people that these things annoy you.

[+FitzgeraldFamily]

I was recently at a park playing catch with my son, we've been looking for the perfect spot to hide a cache so we walked to the edge of the park where there was some dense woods, we scouted the spot and walked back to the car... On the way back i asked my son is that a geocache? It sure was... i thought ok cool, i opened it up its full of new swag and a fresh log, i signed as FTF? Fitzgerald Family and the date... Then since i have 3G on my phone i went to log it on the site, my phone always finds the nearest cache but wasnt finding anything... Double checked when i got home... hasnt been listed yet... I emailed the owner and let him know i found it and if i could indeed count my find as a FTF but its still not listed and he hasnt returned my message...

[+bittsen]

I was recently at a park playing catch with my son, we've been looking for the perfect spot to hide a cache so we walked to the edge of the park where there was some dense woods, we scouted the spot and walked back to the car... On the way back i asked my son is that a geocache? It sure was... i thought ok cool, i opened it up its full of new swag and a fresh log, i signed as FTF? Fitzgerald Family and the date... Then since i have 3G on my phone i went to log it on the site, my phone always finds the nearest cache but wasnt finding anything... Double checked when i got home... hasnt been listed yet... I emailed the owner and let him know i found it and if i could indeed count my find as a FTF but its still not listed and he hasnt returned my message...

 

Not all geocaches are listed on Geocaching.com.

[+briansnat]

So I noticed a fresh cache pop up in my mailbox today and without delay rushed out to find it.

 

After spending an hour looking for it and having the coords sitting 40 feet in a lake, I call a friend. He informs me that it has already been found! How in the world? I was at GZ 20 minutes after posting!

 

Well as it turns out, the cacher hid the container 2 years ago but could not get it published because of a distance conflict, yesterday he was at an event in the area and decided to check on it to see if its still there, (don't know why he hadn't retrieved it in that time) He had some geofriends with him who he showed where the cache was, and let them sign the log......

 

When I arrived home I checked the listing to see cache published May 2nd, and three FTF on May 1st

 

Least I can save myself some time in the future, by just staying at home for his postings.

 

This is only a listing service. Cache owners are free to advertise their caches anywhere and any time they please. That means that if you are the FTF on a new listing on this website there is no guarantee that you are the true FTF. It is not cheating because FTF is a made up game played by a small percentage of website users. If you enjoy that game go at it, but there are times you will have to deal with cache owners and geocachers who are not playing your game.

[+simpjkee]

To me, that's cheating. Do that if you want, but will you honestly get satisfaction out of an FTF when the hider brings you out and hands you the log book? Most likely this was just done so that the hider wouldn't need to place a FTF prize...

 

nobody needs to put in a FTF prize. I never do.

[+Setan Meyacha]

So I noticed a fresh cache pop up in my mailbox today and without delay rushed out to find it.

 

After spending an hour looking for it and having the coords sitting 40 feet in a lake, I call a friend. He informs me that it has already been found! How in the world? I was at GZ 20 minutes after posting!

 

Well as it turns out, the cacher hid the container 2 years ago but could not get it published because of a distance conflict, yesterday he was at an event in the area and decided to check on it to see if its still there, (don't know why he hadn't retrieved it in that time) He had some geofriends with him who he showed where the cache was, and let them sign the log......

 

When I arrived home I checked the listing to see cache published May 2nd, and three FTF on May 1st

 

Least I can save myself some time in the future, by just staying at home for his postings.

 

A few years ago a dear friend of mine, quietbreezes, took a turn for the worse after battling cancer most of her life. Her goal when she got involved in geocaching was to make 1000 finds. Unfortunately, she was no longer capable of getting out of bed, let alone look for caches. Many cachers, myself included, started placing caches in her honor and gave her FTF on them so she could reach her goal before she past away. Unfortunately, she wasn't still alive when her goal was finally met; but, collectively, we did see that she did reach her goal. Although her name was the first to appear on those many caches, credit for being the FTF was given to the FTF after the cache was published; knowing there are those who covet the distinction of being FTF, we didn't want to disappoint them. So, you never know what the reason may be that a log shows up as being found prior to the cache being published. Apparently, you know all the details about the cache in your post, but that doesn't necessarily mean all pre-published finds come about in that manner.

[+simpjkee]

and coords weren't given out because the coords were incorrect, the placer SHOWED them where the cache was and was there when they retrieved it, the cache was also placed 2 years ago, the owner just didn't publish it till now because another cache was too close.

 

So, for two years it was still a geocache. It just wasn't listed on this site. The owner has the option to let anyone find his cache in any manner he chooses...it may not conform to the geocaching.com guidelines and may not be published here, but it's still in place and able to be found...and it was, prior to you finding it after publication.

 

I agree totally. Publication on geocaching.com is a moment in the life of the cache, not the birth of the cache.

Edited May 3, 2010 by simpjkee

[+cache_us_if_you_can]

sounds like sour milk to me. 20 minutes to a cache is not that short a period of time before attempting a DNF these days with apps on Droid and iPhones. And if the cacher was at an event and gave the coords to others at the event and they found it, then in my opinion its fair game. In the grand scheme of things, its just a smiley, there is more to the game than being an FTF

Also, there are times where caches are hidden in honor of an event and don't get published in time and the event organizers give out hand outs of the coords., I don't think that's cheating either

We had something like this happen here locally a week or two ago at a CITO event. The people hosting the event placed 30 new caches in the area and worked with the review to postpone publishing any of the listings until the morning AFTER the CITO event. At the end of the CITO they handed out prizes to everyone that helped, and then passed out a list of the 30 caches to anyone that wanted it. The 30 FTF's were a bonus reward from the CO's to any of the people that helped who wanted to go looking. As the owners, it was up to them how they wanted to play, so I don't see it as cheating either.

[Clan Riffster]

I pray that if I ever get such a huge sense of entitlement, as demonstrated by a few of the posters in this thread, that someone will shoot me in the foot.

At that point, I'd need some sort of severe wake up call.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

sounds like sour milk to me. 20 minutes to a cache is not that short a period of time before attempting a DNF these days with apps on Droid and iPhones. And if the cacher was at an event and gave the coords to others at the event and they found it, then in my opinion its fair game. In the grand scheme of things, its just a smiley, there is more to the game than being an FTF

Also, there are times where caches are hidden in honor of an event and don't get published in time and the event organizers give out hand outs of the coords., I don't think that's cheating either

We had something like this happen here locally a week or two ago at a CITO event. The people hosting the event placed 30 new caches in the area and worked with the review to postpone publishing any of the listings until the morning AFTER the CITO event. At the end of the CITO they handed out prizes to everyone that helped, and then passed out a list of the 30 caches to anyone that wanted it. The 30 FTF's were a bonus reward from the CO's to any of the people that helped who wanted to go looking. As the owners, it was up to them how they wanted to play, so I don't see it as cheating either.

 

Had something similar happen here last weekend. There was a CITO event, that I was unable to attend due to prior family obligations where a 2 (I guess that is the difference between caching here and in California) new caches were placed to be found by those that attended the event. One of them was an unknown cache that was found during the event by 26 teams, many of which claiming to be part of the FTF group. I really don't care about getting FTF on a cache, but because I had real life obligations I will have to actually solve the puzzle, and actually find the cache on my own to get credit for the find while 26 others basically just had the cache handed to them.

[+dfx]

So, for two years it was still a geocache. It just wasn't listed on this site. The owner has the option to let anyone find his cache in any manner he chooses...it may not conform to the geocaching.com guidelines and may not be published here, but it's still in place and able to be found...and it was, prior to you finding it after publication.

isn't a geocache only a geocache if there's some "geo" involved, i.e. the GPS coordinates posted somewhere or at least given to somebody in some other way, so that they could find it through that?

[+cache_us_if_you_can]

sounds like sour milk to me. 20 minutes to a cache is not that short a period of time before attempting a DNF these days with apps on Droid and iPhones. And if the cacher was at an event and gave the coords to others at the event and they found it, then in my opinion its fair game. In the grand scheme of things, its just a smiley, there is more to the game than being an FTF

Also, there are times where caches are hidden in honor of an event and don't get published in time and the event organizers give out hand outs of the coords., I don't think that's cheating either

We had something like this happen here locally a week or two ago at a CITO event. The people hosting the event placed 30 new caches in the area and worked with the review to postpone publishing any of the listings until the morning AFTER the CITO event. At the end of the CITO they handed out prizes to everyone that helped, and then passed out a list of the 30 caches to anyone that wanted it. The 30 FTF's were a bonus reward from the CO's to any of the people that helped who wanted to go looking. As the owners, it was up to them how they wanted to play, so I don't see it as cheating either.

 

Had something similar happen here last weekend. There was a CITO event, that I was unable to attend due to prior family obligations where a 2 (I guess that is the difference between caching here and in California) new caches were placed to be found by those that attended the event. One of them was an unknown cache that was found during the event by 26 teams, many of which claiming to be part of the FTF group. I really don't care about getting FTF on a cache, but because I had real life obligations I will have to actually solve the puzzle, and actually find the cache on my own to get credit for the find while 26 others basically just had the cache handed to them.

This was a little higher than normal number released in our area and the caches placed by the host of the event were spread out over 30-some miles. They didn't want to "hand" anyone the FTFs, so all they gave the early hunters of these caches was the GC#, coordinates and star ratings. No sizes, descriptions or hints were given.

[+joespaz]

Recently I complained about caches being logged as a FTF a day before they were published and ask how that could happen.

 

Basically I was told that I was wrong, it couldn't happen that way, I was mistaken, etc.

 

If I am looking for a place to hide a cache and I stumble upon an unpublished cache and sign the log then log it online after it is published, is that cheating? I don't think so.

[+The green family]

Hello, I am very new at this. Only been caching for 2 weeks or so. I have placed 3 caches. I am still learning as I go and I have a couple of simple questions (I hope). The first question is what is the hoopla about FTF? and second, this is the first I caught wind of placing a FTF (monetary) prize. Is this expected? I hope I didn't disappoint the people who found my caches already. My last question, and if there is a better forum for it please let me know and direct me there, do people get permission to place caches for every site? I have so far, but I am having difficulty figuring out who the land owner is for some places. Cemeteries, for example. I see a lot of caches posted in cemeteries. I was just wondering. Thanks.

[+thedeadpirate]

FTF (monetary) prize. Is this expected?

For the most part it just depends on your area. FTF prizes are generally a little extra tossed in to encourage people to hunt for your cache.

 

I live in a really rural area and when I started caching there was 1 cache in town. I placed FTF prizes in the first handful of caches in order to "bribe" people to make the 30 miles drive to find them.

 

Now we have several cachers in town and a few of us are hiding now. I no longer feel the need to put FTF prizes in my caches.

 

Down south a bit is a larger city. There are a handful of FTF hounds who will have their signatures on the logbook within an hour of publication. They do not put FTF prizes in their caches. There is no need.

 

So really, it is just up to your discretion. There is nothing wrong with putting in a FTF prize and there is nothing wrong with no putting one in.

 

*** This post is intended to be of a positive, useful nature. The opinions contained herein are based on the poster's experience and may not be relevant to all cachers.

[+geodarts]

The first question is what is the hoopla about FTF? and second, this is the first I caught wind of placing a FTF (monetary) prize. Is this expected?

 

I have been caching for a while and often wonder about the hoopla. I have been first to sign the log in a few hundred caches, but have never used the three initials or considered it anything more than an alignment of factors that I have very little to do with. I have also never left a prize for anybody less than a third or fourth to find, since they deserve it the most.

 

With that said, the initials are important to some people. To avoid some of the problems in the initial post, the custom in our area is for people who are with a cacher when the hide is placed, or who beta test a cache, to sign further down the page and wait until at least three people have logged it online before considering it a "find." Although it is also important to remember the slogan of the School of Intuitive Caching - why wait for caches to be published for you to find them? There are lots of ways to find a cache.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Erickson

[Clan Riffster]

The first question is what is the hoopla about FTF?

I think it's an end result of the competitive nature of some people. Folks who thrive on "proving" they are somehow superior to others, invented a subgame to the one the rest of us play. This lets them cache, and compete, at the same time. As I am not competitive by nature, I should qualify my statement by saying it is strictly an uneducated guess.

[+Chokecherry]

Here I was excited at the potential to be last to find on some caches around here that I know are going to be archived and have actually thought about making plans to find said caches before they are archived.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

To avoid some of the problems in the initial post, the custom in our area is for people who are with a cacher when the hide is placed, or who beta test a cache, to sign further down the page and wait until at least three people have logged it online before considering it a "find."

 

As they say, play the game the way you want but I find this sort of thing silly. Do the FTF hounds feel so slighted that they have to invent nonsense like this just to lay claim to a ftf?

 

I guess I just don't get it (and probably never will, thank god) but if I decide to try for a FTF and when I get there I find someone else has beat me to it, I just shrug my shoulders and move on. I don't dream up scenarios that somehow negate another person finding the cache before I did and therefore, I'm the REAL first to find. Yeah, there was another name in the logbook, but it wasn't in the FTF spot...HA HA! I WIN!

[+Crow-T-Robot]

So, for two years it was still a geocache. It just wasn't listed on this site. The owner has the option to let anyone find his cache in any manner he chooses...it may not conform to the geocaching.com guidelines and may not be published here, but it's still in place and able to be found...and it was, prior to you finding it after publication.

isn't a geocache only a geocache if there's some "geo" involved, i.e. the GPS coordinates posted somewhere or at least given to somebody in some other way, so that they could find it through that?

 

Well, in this instance the owner did have the coordinates available...we just don't know where, or if, he posted them. He may have given them out to friends via Facebook or email or just told them over the phone. It's also likely he didn't give them out at all but just led a group to the hide. Either way, it was found before it was published on this site.