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Pocket PC - which one?


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Am I the only cacher whoch wants to buy a Windows mobile PDA for caching, preferably with a phone built in? I can see from the forum you are all converting to Garmins of one form or another...I know the considered opinion amongst cachers is that pda arent robust enough but the ones I have had have been fine and only destroyed by dropping in the canal and my recent one has a cracked screen from falling out of my pocket on a train! The cracked screen is repairable but am considering an upgrade at the same time.

 

I solve the battery life issue by carrying a spare.....

 

I have used memory map for years and dont really want to revert to one of the garmin units as I wont be able to use memory map anymore (as far as i know) so I am searching ebay and totalpda, handtec, clove etc for a new recentish pda becuase

 

So whats the best GPS many now dont seem to have Sirfstar chipsets whihch I have always been very happy with, but how good are these newer devices for caching.

 

Anyone got a HTC Pharos or an ipaq 614 and can comment on gos accuracy.

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Am I the only cacher whoch wants to buy a Windows mobile PDA for caching, preferably with a phone built in? I can see from the forum you are all converting to Garmins of one form or another...I know the considered opinion amongst cachers is that pda arent robust enough but the ones I have had have been fine and only destroyed by dropping in the canal and my recent one has a cracked screen from falling out of my pocket on a train! The cracked screen is repairable but am considering an upgrade at the same time.

 

I solve the battery life issue by carrying a spare.....

 

I have used memory map for years and dont really want to revert to one of the garmin units as I wont be able to use memory map anymore (as far as i know) so I am searching ebay and totalpda, handtec, clove etc for a new recentish pda becuase

 

So whats the best GPS many now dont seem to have Sirfstar chipsets whihch I have always been very happy with, but how good are these newer devices for caching.

 

Anyone got a HTC Pharos or an ipaq 614 and can comment on gos accuracy.

The best WinMobile GPS receiver I have found is the Acer X960. It is better than ANY of my Garmin units - MUCH better than the Oregon 550t and even better than the eTrex HCx. Regrettably, in most other respects it is very poor.

 

The performance of the phone isn't very good, and it's very buggy. It has a high resolution 640 x 480 screen which gives exellent definition. MemoryMap and CacheMate both work, but with some reservations. In MemoryMap, the high res screen looks excellent, but means you can't zoom in quite so far. It links to CacheMate as usual, but if you close MM and leave CacheMate open, next time you run MM the link doesn't work - you have to fully close CacheMate and try again. It has a dreadful little telescopic stylus, but fortunately it works with my fingernail so I don't often have to use the stylus.

 

I also have an Asus P750. This is a far better general purpose device. It has a phone keypad, so the screen is very small, but for me quite usable. It is reliable and has a good phone. The GPS performance is pretty good, without being spectacular - it's much better than the Oregon but slightly less good than the eTrex HCx. As supplied, the SiRF III chip has static navigation enabled, but this can be turned off using a third party program, which is necessary for caching. Its outstanding feature is the battery life - 11 hours running MemoryMap continuously (though that doesn't mean with the backlight on for all 11 hours). It's a bit light on RAM, only 64K, and the built in programs use much of that. They don't add anything useful so I've disabled them, which makes the 64K go further. It still means that MM can't load the entire huge 50,000 maps in one go, but it's fine with the 25,000 maps or sections of the 50,000. The small memory doesn't seem to cause me any other problems.

 

I avoid HTC, having had 3. They all had the QualComm chip set and the GPSr performance was dire - OK for SatNav, but not in the ball park for caching. My information is now a couple of years out of date, but I would want to be quite certain they had dealt with this issue before getting another. This also goes for the machines HTC design for other manufacturers, such as Sony.

 

While my preference is to have one machine that is best at everything, I haven't yet found it. I'm currently using an iPhone as a phone, though with very mixed feelings - it's a tricky call between the better functionality of the Asus P750 and the fancy user interface of the iPhone.

 

But the iPhone GPSr is absolutely rubbish, so I have to carry a separate GPSr. Despite its many failings, the GPSr on the Acer X960 is so outstanding that I put up with the problems, unless the weather is bad when I take the Oregon instead.

 

Rgds, Andy

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I've got a Mio P550 (Windows mobile) which is excellent (newer model available now P560). It runs Memory Map (OS mapping) and with cachemate to store the cache details it is all I need. The GPS works well but unlike a new handheld GPS has no magnetic compass so when you stop the compass stops. This is probably the case with most PDA gps applications. Only downside to the PDA route is battery life which is pretty dire! You can get battery packs. To get the caches onto the PDA (and cachemate) you need a PC program to convert your PQ. I use GSAK which is excellent.

 

I've just bought a Garmin Oregon 450 which has a magnetic compass (works at any angle and when you are stopped), with the OS GB discoverer maps (OS Landranger maps). The PQ is transferred straight to it without any third party program and battery life is easily a full day caching (AA batteries - I use rechargeables).

The Mio now sits in the cupboard!

 

iPhone and other smart phones? I've got an iPhone and when you have a GOOD mobile signal it works OK but the GPS is nowhere as sensitive or accurate as a 'handheld' type GPS.

 

Chris (MrB)

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we use an older WiMo based PDA (FSC Loox N560) as our primary geocaching device. it has a builtin sirf III chip which is pretty good, unfortunately the builtin antenna isn't so good, so in some cases we need do use an external antenna (mostly just when placing caches though).

 

there's plenty of software for full paperless geocaching, each with different advantages and disadvantages. we use beelineGPS, which required some scripting to make the GPX import easier, but otherwise does the trick for us.

 

of course the device (and also some of the software) has plenty of shortcomings, but at the same time you'd have to whip out several hundred bucks to get a dedicated GPS device which gives you the same set of features, and that doesn't take into account that the PDA can be used for much more than just geocaching. which is why we're gonna stick to the PDA for now, as long as it still works :unsure:

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Thanks for the replies - I think the high res screen issue you talk about on the X960 is similar to the screen I had on the Glofiish X900 (which became Acer X900 after some merger/takeover or something) I found Lordelphs icons significantly helped with that....might be worth a try for you.

 

Many thanks for the comment on the HTC GPS accuracy issue you have confirmed my concern......

 

Also thanks for the Asus P750 the good battery life is very interesting - in the past I have addressed this by taking two batteries out with me and changing the battery when it gets low...but 11 hours is more than I would need.....only catch is the small screen - same as my previous glofiish....hmmmm tempting.

 

The Loox N560 comments as I have noted a few of those on ebay.....and the comments on the antennae are a bit of a concern.

 

Decisions decisions....off to check out Mr B's suggestion of Oregon 450....

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You don't have to get the Oregon 450. I only chose it because I specifically wanted the 3-axis compass. All the Oregon (and Dakota) range offer similar features and the same mapping functions (including Talkytoasters free maps!). Main difference between the Oregon models is whether they come with the pre-loaded Garmin UK Topo maps (400t) or not and whether they have the 3-axis compass (450/550) or a normal digital compass (300/400). The Dakota range is similar but has a slightly smaller screen. Oh, the 'lower' number Oregon's only give you 1000 waypoints, the 'higher' number ones 2000 - check out the Garmin website and do a comparison.

 

Chris (MrB)

Edited by The Blorenges
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Decisions decisions....off to check out Mr B's suggestion of Oregon 450....
A few comments on the Oregon - I have a 550t.

 

The Oregon GPS engine disappointed me greatly. It's not up to Garmin's usual standard; certainly not a patch on an eTrex HCx. Accuracy seems to vary from time to time more than my other GPSrs, even when external conditions are similar.

 

The compass is useful, but you have to recalibrate it every time you change the batteries, which is frequently :unsure: .

 

The water resistance is useful in poor weather.

 

The screen visibility in bright sunlight is not as good as, for example, an eTrex. It is comparable to a typical PDA in this respect.

 

I don't know whether you have 50,000 or 25,000 maps in MemoryMap at present. You won't be able to use your MM maps but will have to buy them again. The 50,000 Discoverer maps on the Oregon are a major additional expense on top of the basic unit. The 25,000 maps are horrendously expensive if you want any reasonable coverage at all. You can also load a very small area of user custom maps. I bought the 50,000 maps and use the custom facility to overlay a small area of 25,000. But it's a pain doing it every time you go out, and you can only do it at all if you have the luxury of plenty of time to plan ahead.

 

Furthermore, the maps aren't as good as on MemoryMap. I believe this is because Garmin chose to use JPEG as the storage format. This is about as unsuitable for storing maps as it's possible to imagine - they're not particularly efficient in terms of storage space, they can be dreadfully slow to display, details are fuzzy and there are visible artefacts. This applies at all scales. They are certainly worth having, but to someone used to MemoryMap they are second best.

 

Rgds, Andy

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I have a friend that has an HTC Fuse and he loves it. The HTC Tilt is basically the same phone put in a different case. There are drawbacks but I will say this it is much better than most phones out there. One thing I will say is if you are looking for a device other that a dedicated GPS receiver, make sure it has a real GPS chipset in it. I found out that the reason that, to quote another poster, is rubbish is that it does not have a real GPS receiver in it. The iPhone uses aGPS or assisted. This is cell phone technology. it only uses the cell towers to locate you. I was disappointed to find this out as I have wanted one since the first one came out. I was told that the reason that the back was all plastic was for the GPS antennas apparently not true.

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One thing I will say is if you are looking for a device other that a dedicated GPS receiver, make sure it has a real GPS chipset in it. I found out that the reason that, to quote another poster, is rubbish is that it does not have a real GPS receiver in it. The iPhone uses aGPS or assisted. This is cell phone technology. it only uses the cell towers to locate you. I was disappointed to find this out as I have wanted one since the first one came out. I was told that the reason that the back was all plastic was for the GPS antennas apparently not true.
I'm afraid you've been seriously badly misinformed. It was me that said the GPS receiver in the iPhone was very poor, but I can assure you that my 3GS DOES have one, just a not very good one.

 

Assisted GPS means it uses other methods to supplement GPS. For example, it will download the ephemeris data from the internet to give a faster "time to fist fix". Prior to getting a fix, or if the signal is too bad to get one, it will triangulate on cell towers and public wireless access points. But all the "assistance" supplements the normal GPS operation.

 

Rgds, Andy

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Ipaq RX5935 which has a 2G internal memory and a SD slot running MM and CM.

 

HTC Touch II running the same. The screen is smaller but better quality.

 

I bought the Ipaq, got the HTC through Work :D

Both are great.

 

I cancelled my Membership because of the lack of support/blocking of WinMo Users. :)

 

PS HTC HD2, gimme gimme....

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My usual advice, when it comes to caching tech is 'buy what drsolly uses' - in this case, an ancient FSC Loox 720. Bluetooth for an external GPS dongle (mount it on your hat for even better reception) so you get whatever GPS chipset and aerial you pay for (from peanuts- Aldi was selling bluetooth GPS units for £9.99 the other week) and wifi for updates. The real selling point is it'll take a 4Gb SD card (but not HCSD) and a 16Gb CF cards, which are cheap for the capacity. You can get the whole country at 1:25k AND 1:50k plus London AtoZ maps on it and still have room for all the caches in the country. You can also swap batteries while in the field and -my personal favourite- the screen is 640x480; 4-times the average PDA resolution, thus giving really clear maps, even before you zoom in. No phone I'm afraid, but if your phone can run a 'make me a wifi point' app (many can) then you can piggyback it to websurf. Lastly, because it's an old model, they're well priced for what they can do. Hope that helps :)

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Hmmm thanks Paul, I hadnt considered that one and your link is another website to explore. How is battery life when using BT? I have not used BT for GPS but early on found that it eats batteries so never tried that route and always gone with built in GPS. Anyone know how PDA with BT and then separate GPS with its own power source compares with PDA built in GPS and not having to use BT?

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It depends how old and looked-after the battery is. The two I got with my Loox 720 are originals, over 5 years old, and I get about 5 hours from one and 3 from the other when using Bluetooth. It seems to make little difference to the PDA if it's on or off. Typically Solly goes through two batteries on a full day's caching (10am-10pm) so his batteries are a bit better than mine. He also has an external power-pack using AA batteries he made for it, as a back-up booster. The GPS gets a bit more; perhaps 8 hours on one charge. Again, he has a spare battery for it, so there's a 10 minute break for a rest at 'battery swap' time. It's nice not to be dashing from cache to cache sometimes :)

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My usual advice, when it comes to caching tech is 'buy what drsolly uses' - in this case, an ancient FSC Loox 720. Bluetooth for an external GPS dongle (mount it on your hat for even better reception) so you get whatever GPS chipset and aerial you pay for (from peanuts- Aldi was selling bluetooth GPS units for £9.99 the other week) and wifi for updates. The real selling point is it'll take a 4Gb SD card (but not HCSD) and a 16Gb CF cards, which are cheap for the capacity. You can get the whole country at 1:25k AND 1:50k plus London AtoZ maps on it and still have room for all the caches in the country. You can also swap batteries while in the field and -my personal favourite- the screen is 640x480; 4-times the average PDA resolution, thus giving really clear maps, even before you zoom in. No phone I'm afraid, but if your phone can run a 'make me a wifi point' app (many can) then you can piggyback it to websurf. Lastly, because it's an old model, they're well priced for what they can do. Hope that helps :ph34r:

 

Well - I have to agree with Paul. Obviously.

 

The Loox 720 is usually available second hand on Ebay for about £80 - 100. It has a 640 by 480 screen, which means you get to see a lot of area on memory map. You can replace the battery in the field, it's a simple swap-out, so I carry a spare battery (and another spare just in case). It hasn't got GPS, which is actually a plus, because it means you can get a separate GPS that uses Sirf chips, for £10. And that GPS has its own battery, so that makes the setup last longer. And I carry a spare for the GPS (which has about 8 hours life).

 

By the way, if you're serious abot GPS, you want a SIRF chip set. Anything else, and you'll be complaining about losing signal in the woods, near buildings, when it rains, and probably when the moon is full.

 

On robustness - I keep the Loox in an aluminium case, which makes it really sturdy. Without that, I've lost two, one which I dropped, and one which I crushed against a gate as I was climbing over. For waterproofness, I carry an Aquapaq, but I rearely need to get it out; only for really heavy rain.

 

Important - once you have the Loox loaded and configured, use it's Backup function to do a backup onto your memory card. The Loox has a weakness - it can decide to reset itself to factory ssettings. When it does, the restore takes a few seconds and you're back in business. I do a backup after each time I load up a bunch of caches.

 

As Paul said, you can get a 4gb SD card, which will be enough for most people, but I also have a 16gb CF card, which gives me OS mapping for anywhere I'm going to be, at 25,000 or 50,000 to 1.

 

My phone is a Nokia 5800 (I got it because I was impressed by Paul's). That gives me the ability of get on the internet while in the field and look at GC.com, or at Google, or send or receive emails (and texts and voice calls). It has a GPS, but I've never really used it, and it has a geocaching app, which I had a look at but decided it wasn't nearly as good as Memory Map. It can also function as a Wifi access point (iPhone's cannot do this, because Apple don't want to allow it, which is my main reason for not buying Apple stuff) which means I can use it with a netbook in the field, if I need serious internet access (useful when I go on holiday and the hotel thinks it's clever to charge for wifi access). The BIG downside of using the phone as a computer is the keyboard, but that's what you get when you put all that functionality in a tiny phone.

 

I use a Mio 350 (or 550) running TomTom for road navigation. You can't get the Mio new any more, but on Ebay, they're £80 to £100. You can't change the Mio's batteries in the field, but you can get external battery packs that take AA batteries (and I made up a similar thing for the Loox). The Mio has a built-in GPS, using sirf chips.

 

I've also worked out how to set up an email account which, when it gets an email, the phone alerts me, so I can use that to tell me if my serevers have some really serious problem.

 

I'd also recommend a shoulder bag to keep all this in! Otherwise, you'll be fumbling in your pockets rather a lot.

 

My wife has an Apple iPhone, which she loves, but she says you can't get signal in places where my Nokia has no problem (we're both on Vodafone), and the battery life is a bit short, and the screen resolution isn't as much as the Nokia, and the GPS isn't too great. But she uses the pedometer function when we're out, and she says it organises her texts very well.

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... It can also function as a Wifi access point (iPhone's cannot do this, because Apple don't want to allow it, which is my main reason for not buying Apple stuff) which means I can use it with a netbook in the field, if I need serious internet access ...
Not quite sure what you mean by that. The iPhone has WiFi, and it actually works rather better than any of my other phones in that respect.

 

I assume you don't mean that you want to use it to connect your NetBook to a Wifi hotspot via the phone, as I imagine all NetBooks will have their own WiFi.

 

Do you mean using the phone to connect to your NetBook over the cellular network? If so, you can do that on the iPhone too, but your network provider may charge you extra. The word to look for is "tethering". If you check your T&Cs you may even find that tethering is prohibited on your present phone contract without paying a surcharge.

 

Rgds, Andy

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I assume you don't mean that you want to use it to connect your NetBook to a Wifi hotspot via the phone, as I imagine all NetBooks will have their own WiFi.

 

Do you mean using the phone to connect to your NetBook over the cellular network? If so, you can do that on the iPhone too, but your network provider may charge you extra. The word to look for is "tethering". If you check your T&Cs you may even find that tethering is prohibited on your present phone contract without paying a surcharge.

 

Rgds, Andy

I think I can answer these. Yes, NetBooks have Wifi, but you need a hotspot to connect to the Internet through. The phone becomes a portable hotspot for anywhere with a decent data signal with the aid of an app which Apple don't and wouldn't authorise. The Nokia uses the Symbian OS, which is much more open for development.

 

If solly's deal with Vodaphone is the same as my 3 contract, they don't care how you access data, just how much. Our 'unlimited Internet' deals allow for 500Mb/month for him and 1Gb/m for me within the Fair Use policy. Given the smartphone can access full web pages, getting the same page for a NetBook, via the phone, downloads just the same amount of data. I'm not even sure how the phone company could tell the difference.

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I think I can answer these. Yes, NetBooks have Wifi, but you need a hotspot to connect to the Internet through. The phone becomes a portable hotspot for anywhere with a decent data signal with the aid of an app which Apple don't and wouldn't authorise. The Nokia uses the Symbian OS, which is much more open for development.
So using the phone to connect the NetBook to the net via the CellPhone network. The common name for that is "tethering". The iPhone can do it - it isn't so much a case of Apple not authorising it, it's a matter of the network provider only authorising it if you pay a surcharge.

 

As far as I know O2 and Orange T&C prohibit tethering on all phones unless you pay a surcharge, 3 is more complicated - some of their tarriffs allow you to, some don't, and Vodaphone charge extra for the iPhone but not for other phones.

 

If solly's deal with Vodaphone is the same as my 3 contract, they don't care how you access data, just how much.
That's what I thought about my contract, until I looked and found it was not so :ph34r: .

 

Our 'unlimited Internet' deals allow for 500Mb/month for him and 1Gb/m for me within the Fair Use policy. Given the smartphone can access full web pages, getting the same page for a NetBook, via the phone, downloads just the same amount of data.
They can indeed download the same data, but most people using a phone with a small screen will tend to download less than when using a computer with a full size screen, simply because the small screen makes it harder work to use. Besides, the tarriff is a commercial matter, there doesn't have to be a direct link between volume and price - the phone companies want to maximise their revenues, and see it as an opportunity to charge more whether you actually use more or not.

 

I'm not even sure how the phone company could tell the difference.
They almost certainly can't, but I don't see what that has to do with it, unless you advocate breaking any clauses in agreements you make that aren't easily verified.

 

Rgds, Andy

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