Group cache logging, who gets credit?

[+ohioyeti]

I have a cache that is a little more difficult than a park and grab. I am not trying to be petty, but want to see what the community thinks of my situation. It requires the person to climb out onto a downed tree, through the limbs, and over a body of water (cache is zip-tied to a branch in the canopy). Not super difficult but takes some balance. So if there is a group of four people caching together and only one person ventures out on the tree, should they all get credit for the cache? How about up a rock wall.... if you are on the ground watching should you get credit when your buddy climbs up to retrieve and sign the cache, or should also have to make the climb also to get the credit? I have looked through the forums for other threads like this but have had no luck, if this topic is overdone, could someone please direct me to the info! Thanks, and I look forward to your opinions on this subject!

[Clan Riffster]

Hi Yeti, good question. You'll find almost as many answers to that question as there are cachers.

My take? If I was hunting the cache, I would not log a find unless I made the climb myself. I made that personal rule because that increases my individual satisfaction, making the game more fun for me. However, If I hid the cache, I would not care if someone climbed the tree or had it handed to them. Heck, I wouldn't even care if someone saw the cache, chickened out on the climb and still logged a find. I don't get anal about how other people define their fun, in a game with few established rules.

[+briansnat]

I've been in those situations and do not log a find if I just stood watched. That is my personal ethic and it's not shared by most geocachers as far as I can tell.

 

It harms nobody if the people who stand and watch log the find, so I don't see it as a big deal.

[4wheelin_fool]

I have a cache that is a little more difficult than a park and grab. I am not trying to be petty, but want to see what the community thinks of my situation. It requires the person to climb out onto a downed tree, through the limbs, and over a body of water (cache is zip-tied to a branch in the canopy). Not super difficult but takes some balance. So if there is a group of four people caching together and only one person ventures out on the tree, should they all get credit for the cache? How about up a rock wall.... if you are on the ground watching should you get credit when your buddy climbs up to retrieve and sign the cache, or should also have to make the climb also to get the credit? I have looked through the forums for other threads like this but have had no luck, if this topic is overdone, could someone please direct me to the info! Thanks, and I look forward to your opinions on this subject!

 

Generally if their name, or team name is in the logbook they get credit. However it's really up to them if they feel they should claim it. Previously some ALRs were designed to only allow the cacher doing all the work to get credit, but those have been discontinued. I would not get concerned over it, as long as they all had fun is what really counts.

[+CanDMan47]

This is not a snarky reply. It is your game, and you can play it anyway you wish. Some people feel you must find it to get the "credit". Others say you just have to be there. There is no right or wrong answer. I sometimes cache with my daughter. She has a separate account. I find 97% of the caches we do together (the other 3% are easy enough that I would find them if I didn't let her go ahead of me). She logs them all as finds. That's how we play. The last thread I read on this subject, there was a faction that said if they didn't specifically find it, it wasn't a find for them. So do what you feel is right for you.

[+Knight2000]

This always gets me when I'm caching with another cacher. If you make the find, how can I log it as I find? I know where it's at but only because you found it!

 

That is why I do not like caching in big groups. (Unless it is my wife and 11 of her clones. )

 

*spln'

Edited April 30, 2010 by Knight2000

[+thedeadpirate]

Ohioyeti,

 

Many people would not log the cache if they didn't personally retrieve the cache. Many will log it as long as someone hands them the log book. Some will even log it as long as they can get their buddy to sign the log while he's out on the limb or up on the rock face.

 

With the latest change to the guidelines, however, a cache owner is limited in his ability to remove find logs. As long as the cacher's signature is in the physical logbook and the online log does not contain spoilers, you should not delete the log find. If you do and the cacher appeals to Groundspeak, there is a high probability that they will reinstate the log. If you continue to delete those types of logs, then you could find yourself in trouble.

 

That is the reality of the new guidelines.

[+AuntieWeasel]

I don't care if I made the actual find, but I do have to sign the logbook myself or I won't take the smiley.

[+NeecesandNephews]

I think you are headed into territory that is somewhat controversial, but I am curious also as to public opinion on this topic. I am going to give my opinion while at the same time expand on your question. (hijack but not on purpose)

 

The wife and I were just discussing this last night. We cache as "neecesandnephews" of course, and sign logs in that manner. We do not have seperate accounts. I cache alone sometimes and sign the same way, but she does not cache alone.

 

The topic came up as there are some cachers locally who sometimes cache together, sometimes alone, yet they have taken to signing a single name to the logs. Example- Cacher Tall, and Cacher Short. Several local logs indicate one or the other of them signed the in cache log, but signed "Cacher Tall Short" Both of them take credit for the single name on the log, and log seperate finds on their respective profiles.

 

It is my opinion that this is not "acceptable". At least not to me. How does a cache owner know who signed the log, or of both were even present when the log was signed?

 

If they had a "team profile" page, and claimed the smiley on that page, I would not have any problem with it. It is only when they sign the team name, then take individual credit for the signature does it become unacceptable to me. Both will log online, on their respective profile page, "signed log as Cacher Tall Short". How can two people claim to have signed the same signature??? Doesn't work in my mind!

 

We ran across a difficult cache with the "team name" logged ahead of us, yet when I went to the cache page to log our find, I noticed each one had claimed credit for the signature.

 

On your original question... if a "Team" is present it is only common sense that they will not all "find" the cache at the exact moment. I have no problem if a member of the team finds it, then the others each sign the log, and they all claim individual finds. It is really the only way you could possibly cache in a group, without limiting the "find" to only the person who actually found the cache first. In a situation that requires a physical "challenge" as you describe, I would have a problem with it if there was only one "team signature" on the log, and they all claimed the find individually. If one person performed the retrieval of the log, the least they could do is sign their own names individually, if they want to claim it individually. Would I expect each one of them to take a turn at the physical challenge? Personally I would want to. Would be nice if they did but I wouldn't expect it of others. And I do not believe the CO has grounds to delete their find if their individual names are on the log, even with the knowledge that they did not "each" perform the physical aspect of it.

 

I may be going out on a limb myself by saying I think the CO is well within his right to delete multiple "Found It" logs claiming only one team sig. I would think the CO could ask the "Team" to either log one find on the "Team" profile page, or choose one person to take credit for the find on their individual pages. This having two or more cachers taking credit for only one signature on the log does not work for me.

 

I doubt either of us will get conclusive responses on this topic. When I place my first cache (which I have not) I plan to put this to the test, as I am confident the "Team" here locally will sign and log in the manner they have newly adopted.

 

Sorry for the long answer.

 

I look forward to the responses of fellow cachers.

 

edit to add- this is why I don't cache in a group. My wife goes along with me, but if there is anything "difficult" about the hide, its all me!! The way I look at it is, Columbus brought three boatloads of people to America, yet credit for the "discovery" is all his. Imagine the chaos if everyone had tried to claim the "find".

 

IF I was in a group, I would feel I needed to complete the physical aspect myself, to claim a find. but I am among the "puritan" group who believes I must log my actual signature myself to claim the find, and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it if someone just handed me the log.

Edited April 30, 2010 by NeecesandNephews

[McKeeFamily2]

Hmm, interesting question that I never thought of.

 

We're new - but here's how we've been doing it.

 

Our "team" is our family of 4. We all go searching together - many times without the hubby, so it's the kids and I. We have one account, McKee Family 2 - so whomever finds the cache - we just sign the logbook as McKee Family 2 - then I log the online part as just one find for the whole family.

 

When we go with the Vietitali's they are a separate team - but do the same thing we do. One is a "handicacher" so she physically CAN'T climb - but enjoys watching and taking pics. I have handed her the logbook to sign both our names (as family/team names) while I help the kids.

 

So, if one finds - we all find. Sometimes a parent will notice a cache and go "I see it" and stay in that spot until the kids then make the find themselves. Sometimes we'll give hints even if we haven't seen it yet. We like the kids finding as many as they can without help. They are a bit young to deal with all the signing and online logging - so we cover that end.

 

To us it just makes sense to have the two teams, and one sig for each team, and one online log for each team. Be interested to know how other folks deal with it though.

[+Geodalf]

This always gets me when I'm caching with another cacher. If you make the find, how can I log it as I find? I know where it's at but only because you found it! )

 

*spln'

Is this a rhetorical question? If not, you casually go around the tree and return with a look of discovery.

[knowschad]

I agree that this question really is a tough nut to crack.

 

I have claimed finds where I didn't, say... "climb out on the tree" myself. I have friends that have a team name, but sometimes only one of them is caching, yet that is the one and only account that they log under. I have one cache that is at the edge of a cliff and I really would love it if everyone that logs the cache actually goes out there to experience what I did when I hid it.

 

On the other hand, I recently was caching with a group, when one of the group suggested that we split up and hit two caches simultaneously... an idea that I instantly nixed.

 

I guess, in the end, that I'm a "situational ethics" kind of guy, at least in geocaching. My own bottom line is this... my statistics are meaningless to me if I feel that I cheated to get them. What anyone else thinks is irrelevant.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

'Team' or 'group' logging is done all the time.

 

Multiple people hunting together at the cache site, one makes the find, one signs for the group, everyone there logs the find.

 

Sometimes the log is passed around and everyone signs it, but in my experience usually just one person signs for the group and everyone else logs something like "Five of us on a group hunt, JoeBlow signed for the group".

 

Some owners even appreciate the group not filing up the log with signatures.

 

If the CO has any doubt that a logger was there he can ask JoeBlow if SallyCacher was there at the find.

[+narcissa]

It's a personal choice that individual cachers have to make for themselves. As the owner, there's not much you can do about it - as long as someone signs the log, they can claim a find. Insisting that each person climb to get the cache themselves would be considered an ALR.

 

Once you've placed the cache, you kind of have to let go and accept that some people might not do it the way you want them to. You'll drive yourself mad nitpicking every group find.

 

There's a cacher in my area who prefaces all of his cache pages with nasty notes about how horrible it is to find caches as part of a group. He's made himself a laughing stock in the caching community because of it.

[+NeecesandNephews]

To respond to comments that have been made, I have to say "yes it is done all the time." So is burying caches, so are holes drilled in live trees, ect... That doesn't necessarily make it ok. It may be widely practiced or widely accepted, but I quit trying to tell anyone how I think they should play the game.

 

Perhaps I will be perceived as "nitpicking" if I expect one name on the cache log for one name on the online log. As the cache owner with the right to delete an online log if the corresponding cache log isn't there, I am ok with that. This is one of the many reasons I have not placed a cache. I am not sure I will ever place one.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not putting up an argument. I merely reserve the right to play as I want, within the guidelines. If the guidelines permit me to delete an online log without the corresponding cache log, rest assured I will probably excercise that right. Will it make me "popular" among the local "team" cachers? I have to answer that question with a question. Am I playing this game as a popularity contest? Nope!

 

If you don't want me to upset you by telling you to play the way I do, then show me the same courtesy.

 

I respect the right of anyone who places a cache in a physically challenging position, to expect me to reach that position before I log it. I could care less if it is considered an ALR or not. If thats what the CO wants, I will respectfully not log his/her cache if I dont. I am not going to argue with them about ALR's or whatever. The smiley I would obtain under these pretenses is not worth it. I just would pass it by.

 

***these comments are in general, reflect only my opinion, and are not posted directly at any one of the cachers who have posted.***

[+Setan Meyacha]

I have a cache that is a little more difficult than a park and grab. I am not trying to be petty, but want to see what the community thinks of my situation. It requires the person to climb out onto a downed tree, through the limbs, and over a body of water (cache is zip-tied to a branch in the canopy). Not super difficult but takes some balance. So if there is a group of four people caching together and only one person ventures out on the tree, should they all get credit for the cache? How about up a rock wall.... if you are on the ground watching should you get credit when your buddy climbs up to retrieve and sign the cache, or should also have to make the climb also to get the credit? I have looked through the forums for other threads like this but have had no luck, if this topic is overdone, could someone please direct me to the info! Thanks, and I look forward to your opinions on this subject!

 

My take on this subject is from both the point of a CO and as a member of one or more groups who have sought caches together. First, as a CO, as long as a person signs the physical log I could care less if that person was the actual one, in a group, who found the cache. I would frown upon and may even delete an online log if I found out a physical log was only signed by a 'team' name but was logged online by several members of that team. There is no indication, in that situation, that the other team members were even present when the cache was found.

Second, as a member of group caching, it is a little ridiculous to expect only one member of a group to be able to sign or log a find on a cache where all have participated in finding the cache. A really 'savy' cacher in a group could be the only one finding caches and, more or less, make the other members in the group feel they were wasting their time caching in groups if they couldn't sign the log and log a find online. Although I do most of my caching by myself, there have been times when I have been with others and I know that is how I would feel if I weren't the one that found the cache.

I used to take a wonderful lady with me caching, when she was up to it, and there is no way she could have climbed a cliff or a tree, or done any number of other semi-difficult searches. She gave her best in situations that were sometimes more difficult than she should have attempted. I would have felt guilty as hell if I had ever told her 'no, you can't sign the log, you didn't find it'. Her name was quietbreezes; God rest her soul.

[Mr.Yuck]

I've been in those situations and do not log a find if I just stood watched. That is my personal ethic and it's not shared by most geocachers as far as I can tell.

 

It harms nobody if the people who stand and watch log the find, so I don't see it as a big deal.

 

Umm, +1.

[+litefoot13]

I've thought about this myself...

I started out as the only geocacher in my family. I made myself an account. My siblings both wanted in on the fun...they both made their accounts. While we lived in Texas, on the few finds we made, we all three signed the logs. And all three of us made online logs.

Now, however, the parents are in on the game as well. I made a team account which covers all five of us, but I also keep up on my seperate account. I write 'litefoot13' and 'weatherstonzoocrew' in the logs, and log them online. Sometimes, however, my siblings want to write their own online logs, for one reason or another. Despite them technically falling under the 'zoocrew' account, I still let them log it, even on those ones that they did not write their own name onto the physical logsheet, as long as they were part of the find...or the DNF, as the case might be. If my brother comes out into the woods with me through brush and tree and poison ivy...he can log it. My sister cannot, since she wimped out and stayed back on the path, even though she is part of the zoocrew team.

Part of my reasoning for not letting them sign the physical log is that after I sign it for both me and the zoocrew account, and both of them sign it...that's four lines taken up by us. ^^" I don't want to fill out the sheet, after all.

 

It's all very convoluted, I know. I imagine it will become unnecessary later, though, because neither one shows much inclination to keep up with their online logs. They're just along for the ride. ^^

[+Vater_Araignee]

Well, I have been chastised for calling my brother a jerk and refusing to log a find on caches because he didn't let me find it. I have been chastised for refusing to log a cache because I saw another cacher returning it.

My brother is still a jerk and I still refuse.

There are things that will make me lift this attitude temporarily, but they are rare happenings that haven't happened yet. Like caching with someone who lives far away and time is short.

 

Then there are those situations where during the hunt one cant help but reveal the location to another cacher, like scouring a tree or climbing a rock wall.

Under that circumstance, I would let the other cacher retrieve it then I would return it or reverse.

 

For my own cache, as long as a name is in the log book I couldn't give a flop.

Unless I was guarding a cache I couldn't disprove that out of 10 cachers logging on one day, only one showed up and signed all 10 names.

[+briansnat]

I think there are two overlapping yet slightly different issues here. One is a cache that might have a physical or mental demand and logging a find cache if you haven't met the demand (e.g. a cache that requires a rock climb, or solving a difficult puzzle). I wouldn't log finds on those if I personally didn't meet the demand, but I have no beef with those who do. I have many geocaching friends and acquaintances who do log these as finds and I don't think less of them because of it.

 

The other issue is the general group hunt for the average cache. I do log finds on these as long as I was part of the team and actively assisting with the hunt. When hunting with a group someone will usually say something like "Brian, you check out that stump, Fred look in those rocks and I'll check the guardrail". Because two of us got the "wrong" assignment should we really refrain from logging a find? We were part of the team that found it and if we were alone we probably would have checked all three anyway, so I don't see the point of not logging a find in these cases.

 

Now if I'm on the tail end of a group hunt and I arrived at GZ and find that those in the front already have the cache out and are signing the log I won't log the find because I didn't participate in the hunt. Same if I'm standing around chatting while the rest of the team hunts.

 

That's where I draw the line because that what feels right to me. Other people draw the line in different places. There are people who wouldn't log a find when searching with a group unless they actually were the one who uncovered the cache and there are people who will sit in the car while the rest of the group searches and log a find.

 

People have their personal ethics when it comes to group hunts and because they harmless, I don't see any as being wrong. Some could be just plain silly, as when one member of the "team" doesn't even visit the cache site and logs a find, but silly and wrong are two different animals.

[+W8TTS]

I know what cache Ohioyeti is talking about and we found it when the pond was frozen. I don't climb trees, I don't walk on logs, I don't walk on water unless it's well frozen. The three of us spotted it about the same time, but the closest one to it signed it. We didn't want to put too much of a load on the ice by gathering around the cache.

 

There are three of us that hunt together on a regular basis and for many reasons. The comradery, the ability to harass the h___ out each other unmercifully , saving wear and tear on a vehicle, and with gas approaching $3.00 a gallon, saving a little money.

 

And, my feeling is if one of a group finds it everyone in the group can sign the log. You were there. Sure, the finder could re-hide it, the other cachers could then retrieve it one at a time, but what would that prove.

 

Just MHO.

 

W8TTS (Ted)

[+wimseyguy]

For many of us geocaching has become a social activity. If only one cacher performs a physical action at a cache that enables all to log it, it is quite likely that another cacher will do something else at another cache to balance it out. I've got no problem caching and logging finds like this.

[+Chokecherry]

Depending on the cache we have looked for when I'm out with my friend/team mate even if only one of actually plucks the cache out of it's hiding spot usually it's taking two of us to really find it and some interesting team work. Like the day he held the boulder out of the way and I grabbed the cache (only way into the cache... small rock my butt). Or the day I held on to his pants so he didn't slide off the edge of this rocky thing and into the river while grabbing one. Usually one of us will sign it for the "team" as we only have one account that we share and then the one who isn't signing will see what else is in the cache and disperse any travel bugs and/or swag we have.

[+Herb and Beans]

This game is supposed to be fun, bring people together and not something that should get soooo nitpicky and drama-filled that the fun gets snatched away.

 

For us, we have one family account. Sometimes, I get a cache alone. Sometimes, it is the whole family. Sometimes, it is just me and hubby. Sometimes, it is me and my son. Essentially, we are one unit. When one makes the find, we all make the find. If we started a bazillion accounts for who logged what with who, it would be one heck of a fun-sucker. It's about family time and doing something fun.

 

And so what? Say a seven year old has his own account and goes caching with the family. Say Mom makes the official find. I wouldn't dare tell little timmy he can't log the find because he didn't make the actual grab. I won't begrudge that because its nit-picky and just downright jerky. Besides, if causing a family squabble over a family orientated game, by being so rigid that it supercedes the fun, I think you should be giving your head a shake.

[+Team Cotati]

This one is just too easy.

 

When we go cache hunting with other cachers, who ever finds the thing, signs the logbook for everone. Therefore, everone gets credit and logs the find online.

 

See? I told you that it was too easy.

 

And, no, there are no exceptions to this.

 

And lastly, we don't blab about it in our online logs and the reason that we don't is that it is irrelevant and no one's business. This works quite nicely don't you think?

[+chachi44089]

We cache as a family 99% of the time. I run the GPS and they do the searching "crawling and bending over looking". We have only one account. I log the find "Team Martin". I do find some of them before my daughters and wife, but we cache as a team, under one name, with adventure and geocaches for all.

[+tozainamboku]

The problem arises because some people view the online Found log as a kind of official score. IMO, it is really no more than a cacher sharing their experience of finding the cache. When a group finds a cache, often it will be the case that one person will sign the log for the whole group. Even when everyone signs, only one person will have actually found the cache and the log will be passed around for all to sign. Placing requirements beyond signing the log in order to not have a Found log deleted is called an Additional Logging Requirement, and for a little over a year now these requirements are not allowed.

 

It is understandable that a cacher who has placed a physical or mental challenge to retrieve a cache would expect everyone who logs a find to have met that challenge. However, IMO, deleting logs would go beyond what a cache owner is generally allowed to do. What happens if a cacher found a clever way to get the cache that was different than the owner intended? We've already seen with the cache in question, that it has been logged in winter by walking out on the ice to retrieve. What if a cacher built a tool that could reach the cache without climbing the tree? What if he trained his pet monkey to climb out and retrieve the cache? My take is that as long as someone signed the log the cache was "found". (I wouldn't always even require the log to be signed but in this case it shows someone has solved the physical or mental challenge that is part of this cache). If people in a group want to log it as a find because one person in the group signed for all, there ought to be no problem. A cache owner who starts deleting logs in cases like this come off as being a bit of a control freak. Your main question should be did the people in the group have fun finding the cache and not "whose log can I delete".

[+ADTCacheur]

I never log a find if I didn't find it, but sometimes when I find it it's because my teammate found it a few seconds ago. Would I force other people to follow these same rules? Probably if I did then I would force my friend to go geocaching even if he hated it, and force other sides of other issues at other people.

 

This may not be a popularity contest, but how would you feel if your log was deleted because the owner was a jerk? It's fine if you mention that "the view is amazing, I want you to see it, so I'm going to delete caches if you don't actually go up this cliff". But even that...

[+Team Cotati]

I never log a find if I didn't find it, but sometimes when I find it it's because my teammate found it a few seconds ago. Would I force other people to follow these same rules? Probably if I did then I would force my friend to go geocaching even if he hated it, and force other sides of other issues at other people.

 

This may not be a popularity contest, but how would you feel if your log was deleted because the owner was a jerk? It's fine if you mention that "the view is amazing, I want you to see it, so I'm going to delete caches if you don't actually go up this cliff". But even that...

 

I still probably would not actually do it, but I assure you that I'd give serious thought about it if someone found a cache of mine and for reasons known only to himself and god almighty, felt compelled to post in the online log that "Fred found it and signed the log for everone else."

 

I'm telling you, I absolutely do not get it.

[+WhiteH20kayaker]

I only have 50 finds so my two cents is really jus' that. My kids and wife (the team) have found a lot of these and we log under one name. My nine year old daughter usually takes off with the GPS as soon as the car is in park and I don't try to keep up with her. I've yet to meet another geocacher on the same find but I feel that if you sign the logbook, it's your find whether the logbook was handed to you or you had to work to get it. Either way you were there. I wish my timing would have been good enough on a couple of DNFs to spy someone else findin' it.

 

Happy Huntin', Y'all!

Steve

[+L0ne.R]

That's where I draw the line because that what feels right to me. Other people draw the line in different places. There are people who wouldn't log a find when searching with a group unless they actually were the one who uncovered the cache and there are people who will sit in the car while the rest of the group searches and log a find.

 

People have their personal ethics when it comes to group hunts and because they harmless, I don't see any as being wrong. Some could be just plain silly, as when one member of the "team" doesn't even visit the cache site and logs a find, but silly and wrong are two different animals.

 

I agree. Finds are a personal issue and harmless (at least I can't see how someone's finds is harmful to anyone else). How they get it (even bogus finds if you ask me) is a personal ethics issue, and that's speaking as a CO.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

That's where I draw the line because that what feels right to me. Other people draw the line in different places. There are people who wouldn't log a find when searching with a group unless they actually were the one who uncovered the cache and there are people who will sit in the car while the rest of the group searches and log a find.

 

People have their personal ethics when it comes to group hunts and because they harmless, I don't see any as being wrong. Some could be just plain silly, as when one member of the "team" doesn't even visit the cache site and logs a find, but silly and wrong are two different animals.

 

I agree. Finds are a personal issue and harmless (at least I can't see how someone's finds is harmful to anyone else). How they get it (even bogus finds if you ask me) is a personal ethics issue, and that's speaking as a CO.

Agreed. I do have an issue with armchair logging; if I know they were not there I will delete it (that's happened ONE time in 50-something caches over 7 years). Otherwise how they choose to log my caches is of no concern to me.

[+briansnat]

That's where I draw the line because that what feels right to me. Other people draw the line in different places. There are people who wouldn't log a find when searching with a group unless they actually were the one who uncovered the cache and there are people who will sit in the car while the rest of the group searches and log a find.

 

People have their personal ethics when it comes to group hunts and because they harmless, I don't see any as being wrong. Some could be just plain silly, as when one member of the "team" doesn't even visit the cache site and logs a find, but silly and wrong are two different animals.

 

I agree. Finds are a personal issue and harmless (at least I can't see how someone's finds is harmful to anyone else). How they get it (even bogus finds if you ask me) is a personal ethics issue, and that's speaking as a CO.

 

Bogus finds are an entirely different story. They can and do affect other geocachers. They may delay needed maintenance or encourage a geocacher to waste time looking for a missing cache.

 

...I have no problem if a member of the team finds it, then the others each sign the log, and they all claim individual finds. It is really the only way you could possibly cache in a group, without limiting the "find" to only the person who actually found the cache first...

 

There actually is another way. I've done it with small groups, but it's not really practical with a large group. As each person finds the cache he walks away, then declares that he knows where it is. They keep this up until everyone has found it, then the cache is pulled from its hiding spot and the log is signed. If you have a small group it works quite well. If you are out with 20 cachers it could get boring while 19 people stand around waiting for that last person to find it.

Edited May 1, 2010 by briansnat

[+L0ne.R]

That's where I draw the line because that what feels right to me. Other people draw the line in different places. There are people who wouldn't log a find when searching with a group unless they actually were the one who uncovered the cache and there are people who will sit in the car while the rest of the group searches and log a find.

 

People have their personal ethics when it comes to group hunts and because they harmless, I don't see any as being wrong. Some could be just plain silly, as when one member of the "team" doesn't even visit the cache site and logs a find, but silly and wrong are two different animals.

 

I agree. Finds are a personal issue and harmless (at least I can't see how someone's finds is harmful to anyone else). How they get it (even bogus finds if you ask me) is a personal ethics issue, and that's speaking as a CO.

 

Bogus finds are an entirely different story. They can and do affect other geocachers. They may delay needed maintenance or encourage a geocacher to waste time looking for a missing cache.

 

 

I stand corrected regarding bogus finds being harmless, some aren't, as briansnat illustrated.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Lone R

[hoosier guy]

I've been in those situations and do not log a find if I just stood watched. That is my personal ethic and it's not shared by most geocachers as far as I can tell.

 

It harms nobody if the people who stand and watch log the find, so I don't see it as a big deal.

 

Agree on both points

[+Team Black-Cat]

How close is close enough? I've considered this for quite a while. If I'm caching with a group and the final is 30 feet up in a tree, I don't have a problem with sharing the find regardless of who does the climbing. It the final is 200 feet up a steep hill, everyone needs to be there.

 

So, what's close enough? 42 feet.

[+ngrrfan]

There actually is another way. I've done it with small groups, but it's not really practical with a large group. As each person finds the cache he walks away, then declares that he knows where it is. They keep this up until everyone has found it, then the cache is pulled from its hiding spot and the log is signed.

This is what the Monday Musketeers do.

[+geodarts]

I still probably would not actually do it, but I assure you that I'd give serious thought about it if someone found a cache of mine and for reasons known only to himself and god almighty, felt compelled to post in the online log that "Fred found it and signed the log for everone else."

 

I'm telling you, I absolutely do not get it.

 

Fred should feel free to do that on any of my caches. I would be grateful.

[+coffee/wired]

There actually is another way. I've done it with small groups, but it's not really practical with a large group. As each person finds the cache he walks away, then declares that he knows where it is. They keep this up until everyone has found it, then the cache is pulled from its hiding spot and the log is signed. If you have a small group it works quite well. If you are out with 20 cachers it could get boring while 19 people stand around waiting for that last person to find it.

This is exactly what we do. My husband and I share an account, but there are two cachers we often go out with. We all spot it and then someone grabs it and we sign the log.

 

Now, how about this scenario: if a handicapped cacher goes to ground zero, but it turns out that he can't quite make it to the cache because there's too much brush on the side of the road for his wheelchair to take on, but he can see the ammo can, should he not get that find simply because his wife had to physically grab the cache? What if the cache is in a pinecone in a tree and it's just out of his reach, should he not log that find either because someone who grabbed it that could reach it?

 

Why put such limitations on a game that's meant to be fun? The person with the most "legitimate" smileys (as if that could even be determined) doesn't win any prize. There's no money, no fame, in geocaching. It's just a game, and last I checked, there were no losers or winners in geocaching. Like Who's Line Is It Anyway - the points don't matter

[+briansnat]

Now, how about this scenario: if a handicapped cacher goes to ground zero, but it turns out that he can't quite make it to the cache because there's too much brush on the side of the road for his wheelchair to take on, but he can see the ammo can, should he not get that find simply because his wife had to physically grab the cache? What if the cache is in a pinecone in a tree and it's just out of his reach, should he not log that find either because someone who grabbed it that could reach it?

 

You can throw in all kinds of "what if" scenarios. I just read of a cacher who was on his deathbed and was a few caches short of a milestone. Apparently other cachers found caches and brought the caches to his bedside so he could log them and reach his goal before he died. Nice story. I don't think many people would begrudge a dying man this pleasure. Yet I don't think many cachers believe that bringing caches to another cacher for him to log has anything to do with geocaching.

[+Vater_Araignee]

Now, how about this scenario: if a handicapped cacher goes to ground zero, but it turns out that he can't quite make it to the cache because there's too much brush on the side of the road for his wheelchair to take on, but he can see the ammo can, should he not get that find simply because his wife had to physically grab the cache? What if the cache is in a pinecone in a tree and it's just out of his reach, should he not log that find either because someone who grabbed it that could reach it?

He found it, he got it in his hand, and he signed the log book. It is his find.

 

I don't care if a person is just a head with an arm growing out of it and logs my cache saying "Finally I logged my 10,000 cache, I can die happy" and then promptly dies and wills me a video of the scenario, if his name isn't in that logbook I'm deleting the find. I wouldn't dare treat a differently abled person as if they where special, it is rude and nobody is special.

[+thedeadpirate]

nobody is special.

I am.

 

*** The preceding comment was meant to be humorous in nature. While I am indeed special, I would never seriously project that here for fear of upsetting those not as special as I am.

[+Chokecherry]

Now, how about this scenario: if a handicapped cacher goes to ground zero, but it turns out that he can't quite make it to the cache because there's too much brush on the side of the road for his wheelchair to take on, but he can see the ammo can, should he not get that find simply because his wife had to physically grab the cache? What if the cache is in a pinecone in a tree and it's just out of his reach, should he not log that find either because someone who grabbed it that could reach it?

He found it, he got it in his hand, and he signed the log book. It is his find.

 

I don't care if a person is just a head with an arm growing out of it and logs my cache saying "Finally I logged my 10,000 cache, I can die happy" and then promptly dies and wills me a video of the scenario, if his name isn't in that logbook I'm deleting the find. I wouldn't dare treat a differently abled person as if they where special, it is rude and nobody is special.

 

My thought on this scenario is that if the cache is rated 1 or noted to be handicapped accessible then a nice little note to the cache owner is in order to straighten out the ratings. Other wise caches are assumed to not be handicapped accessible.

[+coffee/wired]

Now, how about this scenario: if a handicapped cacher goes to ground zero, but it turns out that he can't quite make it to the cache because there's too much brush on the side of the road for his wheelchair to take on, but he can see the ammo can, should he not get that find simply because his wife had to physically grab the cache? What if the cache is in a pinecone in a tree and it's just out of his reach, should he not log that find either because someone who grabbed it that could reach it?

He found it, he got it in his hand, and he signed the log book. It is his find.

 

I don't care if a person is just a head with an arm growing out of it and logs my cache saying "Finally I logged my 10,000 cache, I can die happy" and then promptly dies and wills me a video of the scenario, if his name isn't in that logbook I'm deleting the find. I wouldn't dare treat a differently abled person as if they where special, it is rude and nobody is special.

 

My thought on this scenario is that if the cache is rated 1 or noted to be handicapped accessible then a nice little note to the cache owner is in order to straighten out the ratings. Other wise caches are assumed to not be handicapped accessible.

In my scenario, the cache was rated at a 1, but we all know that one good month of rain could make a cache no longer accessible, or a good wind storm could blow in a bunch of tumbleweeds, or the last to find it moved it. If it's no longer a 1, then it's the CO's responsibility to rate it as such (and finder's responsibilities to note such things in their log, IMO). If a handicapped cacher goes out to a cache that is suppose to be handicap accessible, and sees that he can't get to it after all, then I think he should still get the find since he went to the trouble to go to GZ and find the cache, even if it means he couldn't go that extra few feet to put his hands on the cache because weeds/tumbleweeds/tall grass are an issue, so he sends wife/kid/friend to grab it instead.

[+Scubasonic]

I think you are headed into territory that is somewhat controversial

 

What doesn't become controversial that is posted on this forum

 

 

Scubasonic

[+standingbaba]

I agre with you. I recently came across a team claimimg FTF. Then I noticed that other cachers were logging ftf on the same cache with the log stating 'when out with Team X'. Not sure I agree with this.

I think you are headed into territory that is somewhat controversial, but I am curious also as to public opinion on this topic. I am going to give my opinion while at the same time expand on your question. (hijack but not on purpose)

 

The wife and I were just discussing this last night. We cache as "neecesandnephews" of course, and sign logs in that manner. We do not have seperate accounts. I cache alone sometimes and sign the same way, but she does not cache alone.

 

The topic came up as there are some cachers locally who sometimes cache together, sometimes alone, yet they have taken to signing a single name to the logs. Example- Cacher Tall, and Cacher Short. Several local logs indicate one or the other of them signed the in cache log, but signed "Cacher Tall Short" Both of them take credit for the single name on the log, and log seperate finds on their respective profiles.

 

It is my opinion that this is not "acceptable". At least not to me. How does a cache owner know who signed the log, or of both were even present when the log was signed?

 

If they had a "team profile" page, and claimed the smiley on that page, I would not have any problem with it. It is only when they sign the team name, then take individual credit for the signature does it become unacceptable to me. Both will log online, on their respective profile page, "signed log as Cacher Tall Short". How can two people claim to have signed the same signature??? Doesn't work in my mind!

 

We ran across a difficult cache with the "team name" logged ahead of us, yet when I went to the cache page to log our find, I noticed each one had claimed credit for the signature.

 

On your original question... if a "Team" is present it is only common sense that they will not all "find" the cache at the exact moment. I have no problem if a member of the team finds it, then the others each sign the log, and they all claim individual finds. It is really the only way you could possibly cache in a group, without limiting the "find" to only the person who actually found the cache first. In a situation that requires a physical "challenge" as you describe, I would have a problem with it if there was only one "team signature" on the log, and they all claimed the find individually. If one person performed the retrieval of the log, the least they could do is sign their own names individually, if they want to claim it individually. Would I expect each one of them to take a turn at the physical challenge? Personally I would want to. Would be nice if they did but I wouldn't expect it of others. And I do not believe the CO has grounds to delete their find if their individual names are on the log, even with the knowledge that they did not "each" perform the physical aspect of it.

 

I may be going out on a limb myself by saying I think the CO is well within his right to delete multiple "Found It" logs claiming only one team sig. I would think the CO could ask the "Team" to either log one find on the "Team" profile page, or choose one person to take credit for the find on their individual pages. This having two or more cachers taking credit for only one signature on the log does not work for me.

 

I doubt either of us will get conclusive responses on this topic. When I place my first cache (which I have not) I plan to put this to the test, as I am confident the "Team" here locally will sign and log in the manner they have newly adopted.

 

Sorry for the long answer.

 

I look forward to the responses of fellow cachers.

 

edit to add- this is why I don't cache in a group. My wife goes along with me, but if there is anything "difficult" about the hide, its all me!! The way I look at it is, Columbus brought three boatloads of people to America, yet credit for the "discovery" is all his. Imagine the chaos if everyone had tried to claim the "find".

 

IF I was in a group, I would feel I needed to complete the physical aspect myself, to claim a find. but I am among the "puritan" group who believes I must log my actual signature myself to claim the find, and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it if someone just handed me the log.

[+Mudfrog]

The group of people i regularly cache with don't get around like they used to so i am usually the one that makes the final climb, pipe crossing, etc,,, to physically grab the cache. But since we are in a group, we all claim the find just the same. I would say 99% of the time, that they acknowledge in their logs who actually did the deed and to this day, and as far as i know, none of them have ever had a log deleted.

 

Still, it's up to the cache owner on how stringent he wants to be and i don't think anyone should have a problem with that. I myself won't log a cache that i didn't meet the challenge on but i sure don't have any problems when i know someone else does it in a group, especially when i know that they put forth their best effort.

[+BigAl437]

Since everyone is giving their opinion on this situation I'll give mine. Sometimes I cache alone or with my youngest son, and other times I cache with my wife and all of the kids (5 of us). Four of us have our own accounts. When we cache together whoever finds the cache first signs first, and gets to choose the swag they want, and then the rest of us sign too. Now we all participated in looking for it so I feel we should all sign without any hesitation. Besides, what would be the point of me coming back alone just to "find" it by myself and sign it then? Wouldn't I already know where it was?

 

Once we have found a cache and signed the log then when we get home we each log it as a personal find. But if I am by myself I do not log thier names because they were not there. I'll bring them another time to find it, and I do not help them. I let them find it on their own. Now if our find is a true "FTF" we would all sign the logbook, but only the original finder would log it on geocaching.com as the FTF. That's just the way we do it. We are all out having fun together, which is the point of caching together as a family anyways.

 

And as for having team accounts I am not sure I understand them. Why not just have individual accounts? If you have a team account and someone moves away then they are no longer part of that team. Now they have lost all of those finds that were made if they get their own account at some point in the future. We decided to get individual accounts so that as my kids cache they are logging their finds, and then when they move out on their own they are already established in the geocaching world. This give them the incentive to continue. Being out looking for a cache is supposed to be a fun thing to do as a family or as an individual, and yes even being out as a team. Don't get all wrapped up in the seriousness of it. Get out there and find some caches. It's what we enjoy doing.

[+ArcherDragoon]

On the other hand, I recently was caching with a group, when one of the group suggested that we split up and hit two caches simultaneously... an idea that I instantly nixed.

I have been in that situation...I only logged the caches for which I was able to sign/log myself...all others done that day by the other group I did not count since I was not there for the find...

[+BulldogBlitz]

It requires the person to climb out onto a downed tree, through the limbs, and over a body of water (cache is zip-tied to a branch in the canopy).

 

TFTC. sorry i didn't sign your log... but if you like, i'll explain exactly where it is.