Need help; possibly coordinate transformation?

[BelchFire]

I was given coordinates to a grave that I'd like to catalog near Durango, Colorado. The coordinates I received are:

 

13245590E

4131613N

 

just as typed. I have no idea if this is decimal degrees, degrees and decimal minutes, or D-M-S, so I thought I'd just enter them all to find out what puts me where I expect it should be; not too hard, huh?

 

The cemetery is basically,

 

37º 16' N

107º 53' W

 

I first assumed that the E and W were just a typo, so I went from there, and everything fell apart. Is there a coordinate system that uses a number like the first one that would be close to the cemetery as I show it above?

[Grasscatcher]

Those are UTM coordinates

 

Zone 13 245590 Easting

 

4131613 Northing

 

Be sure which Datum the coordinates are in.

 

The Lat/Lon coordinates you posted (37,16N-107,53W) are in the south part of Durango. Just NW of there , there is a Green Mountain Cemetery.

 

The UTM coordinates you posted are in the North part of Durango. There is an Animas cemetery SE of that location.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Grasscatcher

[BelchFire]

Got it, Grasscatcher; thanks. I finally figured that out. About that time, I got an email that updated me on the nomenclature and the datum.

 

I used

 

http://www.rcn.montana.edu/resources/tools/coordinates.aspx

 

to convert them to good numbers.

 

Thanks!

[jmundinger]

I was given coordinates to a grave that I'd like to catalog near Durango, Colorado. The coordinates I received are:

 

13245590E

4131613N

 

just as typed. I have no idea if this is decimal degrees, degrees and decimal minutes, or D-M-S, so I thought I'd just enter them all to find out what puts me where I expect it should be; not too hard, huh?

 

The cemetery is basically,

 

37º 16' N

107º 53' W

 

I first assumed that the E and W were just a typo, so I went from there, and everything fell apart. Is there a coordinate system that uses a number like the first one that would be close to the cemetery as I show it above?

 

I agree. Those are UTM coordinates. And, if I had to guess, the datum is NAD 27.

 

I plotted the coordinates using USA Photomaps and the coordinates correspond to approximately 37 17.286 N 107 52.214. I'm pretty sure that USA Photomaps uses WGS 84, so those coordinates won't work for you. Besides, in USA Photomaps, the coordinates are in the middle of the Animas River. It got to Durango, but probably not to the cemetery that you are looking for.

[Grasscatcher]

If it's a really old grave then it's probably in the Animas Cemetery

at 37 17 27.3 , 107 51 32.0 WGS 84 Datum

 

The Green Mtn Cemetery looks newer developed ,with dividing drives,etc

It's at 37 16 31.1, 107 53 18 WGS 84 Datum

[BelchFire]

She said it was WGS84, and the converter at the link I posted defaulted there anyway. Grasscatcher, I didn't realize you were in CO all this time. That's kind of funny that you would answer the post of all GC'rs.

 

It's definitely Greenmount Cem. She found the grave and reported the coords for me. He was buried in 1899 and the cem records don't predate 1904. I wrote them, but they couldn't tell me. Now I can tell THEM.

 

Thanks guys, GC'rs are the BEST.

[Grasscatcher]

I hope the grave coordinates are NOT the ones in your OP. Those (original coordinates) definitely are not in that cemetery.

 

Glad it worked out for you.

[BelchFire]

Explain, please.

 

I entered the UTMs that I posted (as WGS84) in the link that I posted and got a set of Lat/Lons, in D-M-S that fall about 8 feet off of one of the roads through Greenmount Cem when viewed from Google Earth. What makes you concerned?

Edited April 27, 2010 by BelchFire

[Grasscatcher]

Explain, please.

 

I entered the UTMs that I posted (as WGS84) in the link that I posted and got a set of Lat/Lons, in D-M-S that fall about 8 feet off of one of the roads through Greenmount Cem when viewed from Google Earth. What makes you concerned?

 

When I plug Z13 245590E, 4131613N, into your converter I get 37 17 46.6 lat, 107 52 12.596 lon.

Is that what you get?

 

Be sure that I've got the correct UTM numbers above.

[jmundinger]

Explain, please.

 

I entered the UTMs that I posted (as WGS84) in the link that I posted and got a set of Lat/Lons, in D-M-S that fall about 8 feet off of one of the roads through Greenmount Cem when viewed from Google Earth. What makes you concerned?

 

When I plug Z13 245590E, 4131613N, into your converter I get 37 17 46.6 lat, 107 52 12.596 lon.

Is that what you get?

 

Be sure that I've got the correct UTM numbers above.

 

That's what I got, assuming WGS84 datum

 

Degree, Minute, Second:

Latitude: 37° 17' 46.693" N

Longitude: 107° 52' 12.596" W

 

or,

 

Minute, Decimal:

Latitude: 37°17.77822279541

Longitude: -107°52.209932700309

 

That plots out in the middle of the river, west of the Riverview School.

 

If NAD27 data is assumed, I get a point about 600 ft to the north of that point, on the other side of the river.

[BelchFire]

Hmmmmm, there's something very strange going on here. Yes, that's what I got too. And when I entered that into Google Earth, it showed up about 6 or 8 feet off of one of the roads in the cemetery that was very close to a verbal description that her brother gave me in an earlier email. But when I pulled up the waypoint properties in Google Earth, it showed 37º, 16' and some change and 107º, 53' and some change. Strange. I corrected the coords to the numbers that we're all getting and it went right back where it was -- showing the wrong numbers again. What the?

 

Soooooo, I manually scrolled around until I found the correct coords, and, BY JOVE, I wound up in the edge of the river just west of the school. Weird.

 

So, taking this back to square one, here is her message:

 

Ok the person who knows something about the GPS says

it is 13E(245590)E

4131613N

using UTM map WGS84

 

It's definitely in the Greenmount cemetery according to her, but that doesn't mean the coords she provided are right. Where is the grave (in Lat/Lon)?

Edited April 27, 2010 by BelchFire

[Grasscatcher]

The UTM coordinates that (?) gave you are incorrect for anything in that cemetery.

 

The easiest way to solve the problem is to get "them" to recheck the location by GPS again. They need to turn the GPS on and let it settle down and get a good lock while they are traveling to the grave location. Then record the coordinates.

Then have them double check the numbers they are giving you.

 

....or if there is someone in the Durango ,CO area familiar with GPS .........

 

Below is info just FYI, (don't let it confuse the issue)

In her e-mail, the 13E ........is WAY off. The 13 is the UTM zone and that is the correct zone number.

However, the "E" is NOT correct. It HAS to be 13 "S" (S does not stand for South, it's just a letter designation of the south to north UTM bands. E band is below the southern tip of South America, in the Southern Hemisphere.

13 S is in the USA and Northern Hemisphere.

Those "band" letters are usually just ignored...and just whether the location is N or S hemisphere is noted

 

....NOTE: this incorrect zone designation IS NOT THE PROBLEM, but it does indicate that "they" didn't understand what they were looking at.

[BelchFire]

....NOTE: this incorrect zone designation IS NOT THE PROBLEM, but it does indicate that "they" didn't understand what they were looking at.

I think you've hit on it. I've never met her and she's about an hour south of the cemetery. What's worse, is she doesn't have a clue about GPS, and got someone to help her with that, so I hesitate to overextend my request. What I don't understand is how they came up with UTMs in the first place; what GPS reads in UTM?

 

Oh well; I'll get there one day. Visiting these graves is on my punch list and now I know where to look, it may just take a little while to find him when I'm there.

 

Grasscatcher and jmundinger,

 

Thank you VERY much for answering my query. I came here knowing that GC'rs would come through for me and I greatly appreciate your help!

[jmundinger]

What I don't understand is how they came up with UTMs in the first place; what GPS reads in UTM?

 

I have a couple of Garmins in the eTrex series and both of mine can be set to display utm coordinates.

[Grasscatcher]

ALL GPSs that I am aware of will display coordinates in UTM. I'll even say that yours will.....and I don't even know what kind you have! HA !

 

an aside.... make another post and see if there are any GC'ers in the Durango area that would be willing to go do a quick check for you. You provide the name on the grave and where the cemetery is located, which they will probably already know, and they can get you some accurate coordinates.

 

There are thousands and thousands of people that travel through SW Colorado on summer vacation......give someone a constructive project to do.

[Grasscatcher]

What I don't understand is how they came up with UTMs in the first place; what GPS reads in UTM?

 

I have a couple of Garmins in the eTrex series and both of mine can be set to display utm coordinates.

 

That's all I EVER use....

 

People don't understand how much simpler and accurate UTM is. Each of the (RH) digits in UTM coordinates represents a(1)meter(essentially 1 yd or 1 Step).

Brains (at least mine) don't work in D M S when trying to visualize distances......what distance you read is what distance you get with UTM......down to 1 number difference?? then you are within 3 ft. Kinda one of those DUH moments.....

[jmundinger]

Brains (at least mine) don't work in D M S when trying to visualize distances......what distance you read is what distance you get with UTM......down to 1 number difference?? then you are within 3 ft. Kinda one of those DUH moments.....

 

UTM is also a lot easier to describe your location on a topo map than PLS.

[BelchFire]

Grasscatcher, I understand your point about 1 meter, so I'll concede. However, I'm a mechanical engineering major and DMS is incredibly simple to me. (I just didn't know the UTM format, nor how to use it). 1 degree of latitude at the equator is 60 nautical miles, so one minute of latitude at the equator is 1 nautical mile. That's as far as I would attempt to differentiate distance with coordinates. If I need anything beyond an approximation, I'll ask my Vista HCx (which, by the way can be set to display UTM format, touche')

 

My only concerns with UTM would be:

 

1) It's not nearly as recognizable, nor readily accepted as DMS (or DD). At least I didn't recognize the format, nor did I know how to convert without Google's help.

 

2) It requires 4 items of information; the zone, the datum, the Easting and the Northing. I can give you the same point on a map with the same accuracy by using two sets of numbers in DDs instead of four. It just seems SO much easier to use exchange information.

 

But then that's just me. If UTMs work for you guys, I say, go for it. I can live with whatever works for you; you certainly have been accommodating enough to me and I'm very grateful.

[BelchFire]

an aside.... make another post and see if there are any GC'ers in the Durango area that would be willing to go do a quick check for you. You provide the name on the grave and where the cemetery is located, which they will probably already know, and they can get you some accurate coordinates.

 

There are thousands and thousands of people that travel through SW Colorado on summer vacation......give someone a constructive project to do.

The cemetery is HUGE and I can only give an approximation of the grave location. The cemetery office doesn't have any record of the grave. That's why I'm trying to find the position; so I can have them add him to the registry. If I can find someone to help me look for him, they would have their work cut out for them.

 

Where would be the appropriate sub-forum to request this help?

 

(psssst; how far is Durango from Grand Junction?)

[Grasscatcher]

GJ is about 160 miles away.

 

If I get that far south this summer , I'll contact you for the details.

 

I don't know which sub forum would be best....maybe one of the moderators would jump in and make a suggestion.

 

Oh, by the way, next time you need coordinates converted...... FIRST have your GPS unit set on whatever format you want to convert FROM.......input the starting coordinates and then change your unit to whatever format you want to end up with .....and just read the answer.......ta da !

 

Didn't think of that one, did ya?

 

These little booger electronic things are about half smart!

 

Look in my profile and send me an e-mail with whatever location info and grave name etc.

I'll see if I can find anyone that knows someone down in that part of the state.

[jmundinger]

Grasscatcher, I understand your point about 1 meter, so I'll concede. However, I'm a mechanical engineering major and DMS is incredibly simple to me. (I just didn't know the UTM format, nor how to use it). 1 degree of latitude at the equator is 60 nautical miles, so one minute of latitude at the equator is 1 nautical mile.

 

A mechanical engineer ought to be able to think metric.

 

The UTM system uses 1 km grid squares and, as previously noted, the coordinates define a square meter. And, while we are on the subject, note that you have the option of setting your gps to display direction in mils rather than degrees. There are 6,400 mils in a circle. And, an angle of 1 mil defines an arc of 1 meter at a thousand meters.

[+dfx]

1) It's not nearly as recognizable, nor readily accepted as DMS (or DD). At least I didn't recognize the format, nor did I know how to convert without Google's help.

 

2) It requires 4 items of information; the zone, the datum, the Easting and the Northing. I can give you the same point on a map with the same accuracy by using two sets of numbers in DDs instead of four. It just seems SO much easier to use exchange information.

yes and no. both UTM and long/lat coordinates require a datum to work on. the datum is what translates the coordinates into a specific location on the globe, so you need the datum information for both formats. both UTM and long/lat are equally useless without knowing the datum.

 

other than that, UTM is just a projection of long/lat coordinates, with a very specific use. UTM allows you to use regular cartesian geometry (most importantly the pythagorean formula) on positions on the surface of the earth. however, those calculations are only meaningful on coordinates within a single zone, which is why you need three pieces of information with UTM as opposed to two with long/lat. (in reality the "pieces of information" count is different though, as north/south and east/west are also pieces of information.)

[Grasscatcher]

Just a quick comment....not trying to promote a cause.

 

To me , actual "out in the field" work is where UTM shines.

 

I always already know what Zone I'm in so, personally, I only mentally deal with TWO "directions". More East or Less East, and More North or less North. to make the numbers match. And considering that each "number" digit is essentially a step, I know the distance.

 

No conversion, minimal calculation (adding or subtracting) and I'm there.

Works for me!