Deleted Finds

[+behind the camera]

I will do my best to list these as general questions .

 

Is it ok to delete a cachers "Found It" logs on my caches that span back to over a few years. (keep in mind this is even if photos of the cacher are attached to the Found It log and the signatures are in the log book )

 

Is it OK for me to delete a "Found It" log if I think the cacher likes a basketball team I dont like? . (basically can I delete the find for any reason even if it means I dont like the type of car they drive)

 

Is it ok for me to delete a Found It log from a cacher I do not like ? (keep in mind this may apply to someone I have never talked to or met in my life. Only heard rumors about)

 

What do I say to the "higher up" if they contact and ask about my actions? (What type of silly letter would I respond with?)

 

This is not the first time I have heard of this happening. There is a cacher in Virginia that had several hundred of their finds deleted by a group of cachers who did not like them.

 

No more to the story though. I just want to know what is right and what is wrong and how you feel about this.

 

I think we all act like children at times .

Edited April 24, 2010 by behind the camera

[+bittsen]

Let me translate this so it's a general question.

 

 

Is it ok to delete a cachers "Found It" logs on caches that span back to over a few years. (keep in mind this is even if photos of the cacher are attached to the Found It log and the signatures are in the log book )

 

Is it OK to delete a "Found It" log if a cacher likes a different basketball team? (basically can a cache owner delete the find for any reason they want)

 

Is it ok to delete a Found It log from a cacher just because the cache owner doesn't like them? (keep in mind this may apply to someone who only has rumors about them)

 

What can be said to the powers that be to appeal deletions? (What type of information is pertinent?)

 

This is not the first time I have heard of this happening. There is a cacher in Virginia that had several hundred of their finds deleted by a group of cachers who did not like them.

 

I just want to know what is right and what is wrong and how you feel about this?

 

[+joranda]

Let me translate this so it's a general question.

 

 

Is it ok to delete a cachers "Found It" logs on caches that span back to over a few years. (keep in mind this is even if photos of the cacher are attached to the Found It log and the signatures are in the log book )

 

Is it OK to delete a "Found It" log if a cacher likes a different basketball team? (basically can a cache owner delete the find for any reason they want)

 

Is it ok to delete a Found It log from a cacher just because the cache owner doesn't like them? (keep in mind this may apply to someone who only has rumors about them)

 

What can be said to the powers that be to appeal deletions? (What type of information is pertinent?)

 

This is not the first time I have heard of this happening. There is a cacher in Virginia that had several hundred of their finds deleted by a group of cachers who did not like them

 

I just want to know what is right and what is wrong and how you feel about this?

 

 

Thanks for the help. What would we do without you?

[+bittsen]

Thanks for the help. What would we do without you?

 

People have been asking that question for centuries.

[+DeRock & The Psychic Cacher]

Is it me or does geocaching seem to have an over average percentage of drama queens?

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

 

Edit to add: I think I may have posted this to the wrong thread.

 

No, it turns out that I was posting to the right thread.

 

Deane

[4wheelin_fool]

Thanks for the help. What would we do without you?

 

People have been asking that question for centuries.

 

Yes, but only within the last 10 years they have been enabled to go outside and find caches.

[Mr.Yuck]

Our KB has this text in it about Log Deletion.

 

In the case joranda is talking about, a lot of people are involved. My advice to joranda is that he not air other people's dirty laundry here. No one enjoys that stinkiness. GSP is already aware and is already acting on it. It takes a while to sort it out since every person has their side of the story.

 

Feel free to discuss the generalities, if you really must.

 

Happy International Cache In Trash Out weekend everyone! I'm off to go clean up what's been made unclean.

 

Seeing as MissJenn is here in the thread, and feels this is important enough to comment on, would she care to comment on a basic member who recently had two logs deleted for using the well-known, and intentionally left open "back door method" for logging Member's only caches? Their logs were deleted just because they are not a premium member, end of story. And when the user (Stanolli) wrote to contact@Groundspeak.com, the lackey with their trouble ticket sided with the members only cache placing elitist.

 

Stanolli's last post regarding this matter.

Edited April 24, 2010 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+thedeadpirate]

Is it ok to delete a cachers "Found It" logs on my caches that span back to over a few years. (keep in mind this is even if photos of the cacher are attached to the Found It log and the signatures are in the log book?

No

 

Is it OK for me to delete a "Found It" log if I think the cacher likes a basketball team I dont like? . (basically can I delete the find for any reason even if it means I dont like the type of car they drive)

No

 

Is it ok for me to delete a Found It log from a cacher I do not like ? (keep in mind this may apply to someone I have never talked to or met in my life. Only heard rumors about)

No

 

What do I say to the "higher up" if they contact and ask about my actions? (What type of silly letter would I respond with?)

Sorry, I'm a mean drunk. I will refrain from drunken cache maintenance in the future.

[+thedeadpirate]

Seeing as MissJenn is here in the thread, and feels this is important enough to comment on, would she care to comment on a basic member who recently had two logs deleted for using the well-known, and intentionally left open "back door method" for logging Member's only caches? Their logs were deleted just because they are not a premium member, end of story. And when the user (Stanolli) wrote to contact@Groundspeak.com, the lackey with their trouble ticket sided with the members only cache placing elitist.

 

Stanolli's last post regarding this matter.

 

I still don't understand that ruling. I believe he should appeal that one again.

[Clan Riffster]

Why cause someone to be banned because you do not like them?

To answer this in general terms, I don't think Groundspeak bans people based upon the likes or dislikes of others. When they ban someone, it's because they chose to act in a manner entirely inconsistent with their policies, guidelines, terms of use, etc. Or, they were caught red handed sneaking up on kittens with rotting lemming corpses.

 

Is it ok to delete a cachers "Found It" logs on my caches that span back to over a few years.

Yes, if you have a legitimate reason for doing so. A bogus log does not magically become unbogus (New Word!) over time.

 

Is it OK for me to delete a "Found It" log if I think the cacher likes a basketball team I dont like?

Only if that team is the Orlando Magic. Then it's OK.

 

Is it ok for me to delete a Found It log from a cacher I do not like?

If the person you don't like posts bogus logs, by all means, feel free to delete them.

 

What do I say to the "higher up" if they contact and ask about my actions?

"Sorry. I use a Magellan. Can you forgive me?"

 

...the lackey with their trouble ticket sided with the members only cache placing elitist.

There goes that "E" word. While Groundspeak did leave the back door open, allowing those regular members familiar with the method to log premium member caches, I don't think that their policy requires that PMs allow finds from non PMs. I would think that this choice would be up to the cache owner. They created a hide, and for whatever reason, designated it as "Premium Members Only". Someone who chose not to become a PM, trying to log them anyway, could be seen as illegitimate. Maybe?

[+J the Goat]

I keep reading about this backdoor. I'm going to have to look this thing up, just out of curiosity.

 

<--- Premium Member

 

(note the caps? elitist at heart )

[Motorcycle_Mama]

LAST WARNING.

 

Do NOT post questions, comments, or LINKS to specific situations. Period.

 

Also, refrain from posting insulting comments about other users including denigrating adjectives describing your assessment of other people.

[+J the Goat]

Sorry, hadn't seen the warning before. No malice intended.

[+behind the camera]

Is it right for cachers to delete your finds when all KB rules have been followed?

 

According to the KB rules, no its not.

 

What would you do if it happened to you and its a group of cachers deleting all of your signed logs?

 

I would ask them in person why are they doing that. Normally people are different in person and tend to be polite when they are not online and wearing internet armor.

 

Would you just say oh well and forget it or would you seek help from GS?

 

Depends on how many caches was deleted. I would put some thought into who I ask for help.

[+MickEMT]

Is it right for people to delete your finds just because they do not like you or the way you chose to cache? What would you do if it happened to you and it is three different cachers and it is over 80 different cache finds with all logs signed. Would you just say oh well and forget it or would it upset you? I know it would upset me with the price of gas and all. How can one fix this problem?

 

Well, I heard of a guy in Virginia, I believe it was, who had a bunch of hata's, and had like 1,000 logs deleted. He documented them all, complete with photos of his signatures, and logged finds on his own archived caches. Don't know if that was officially sanctioned by The Frog, or if it's still going on.

 

On a much smaller scale, some guy in my area has done it about 10 times. Actually I'm not sure if that's still going on either.

 

Yes TWU, it's still going on in our area. Oddly enough the "deleter" logs finds on the "deleteee's" caches.

[+MickEMT]

The way I read the guidelines and KB (and my own opinion on this) is that if the finder has made a legitimate find on the cache (signed logbook, correctly answered question on an earthcache, completed challenge) there is no reason to delete a finder's log.

Deleting a found log for a cache for any other reason is wrong and at the very least kind of childish.

 

Unfortunately, it looks like it may be time for TPTB to directly address the situation with a clear rule.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

What a mess. Good luck to Groundspeak in their efforts to sort it out and deal with this and all other conflicts!

 

It really hurts the game when people are petty and disrespectful. I don't see the point in the nastiness. I put up with some bad behavior in a game once and finally stopped playing the game. I realized that I'm an adult and I really don't have time for the nonsense. I can easily recommend the same to others.

[+thedeadpirate]

This is the reason we wind up with more and more guidelines.

 

It is also a good reason for giving us the ability to filter out hiders.

 

I would completely ignore, generally speaking, hiders known to delete find logs for petty reasons.

[+GeoGeeBee]

Personally, and keeping this in general terms:

 

If one person decided to delete all of my logs on his caches, I'd probably figure he had personal issues and just not look for any more of his caches.

 

But if several people all decided to delete all of my logs on their caches, I think it would be time for some serious introspection. I'd have to take a long, hard look at how I played the game, and try to figure out what I had done to upset so many people. I might even have to ask myself this: If the game I am playing is so different from the game that everyone else is playing, do I really even want to play this game at all?

 

NB: I don't know any of the people involved and am not commenting on any specific situation, I'm just saying what I would be thinking if my logs were being deleted by several different people.

[+Jackalgirl]

If I'm understanding this correctly, it's not so much a question of people deleting the logs of people they don't like, but of people who have been banned.

 

So another restatement of the question would be:

 

Is it okay to delete the "found it" logs of members banned from geocaching.com?

 

I would imagine that a person so banned wouldn't be able to log anything, so we must be talking about people deleting the logs of a banned member or members that were logged before the ban went into place.

 

Personally? I'd say "no". I would likely not know the reason for a person's banning, nor know whether that person's ban were temporary or permanent. If the banning were temporary, then this would mean that when the person is unbanned, he or she would have to go in and enter all those logs again (provided that the cacher had kept some other record). I myself would be pretty upset if that happened to me, since geocaching.com is the way I keep record of my whopping 50-or-so finds (I would be REALLY upset if I had, say, 2000+).

 

Even if a person's ban were permanent, that person could be connected to unbanned persons (friends, teammates, family) who might utilize the banned person's record for various reasons. So, on a whole, I myself am against the deletion of valid found it logs (where "valid" means "signed the physical log book").

 

I imagine the people involved in this situation know a bit more about the situation and the reasons for why this person was banned. Pehaps there is a (possibly incorrect) impression in persons' minds that banning means that a person's record should be erased, and that they think they're doing the Will of Signal. There is undoubtedly a lot more going on, some or all of which might change my mind.

 

I don't really want the info, though -- as far as I'm concerned, it should stay with the people involved and they should work it out with GS (as is being done).

[+DragonsWest]

Geocaching is open to everyone. Geocaching.com doesn't take applications and review them for suitable hiders and seekers, so you may be assured of one thing, there will be all stripes out there. It's unfortunate when you encounter someone with a mean or stubborn streak, but they exist.

 

What goes around, goes around. If there is one particular Cache Owner who feels compelled to act in a contrary manner, it's worth pointing them out to the local caching community. Perhaps they have their reasons, but perhaps they also need to see reason and finding themselves on the outside of a community may encourage them to be less contrary. If the CO is simply being mean they will find cachers lose interest in finding their caches, or it they appear spiteful may engender some ill treatment of their hides.

 

Geocaching is a social activity, which depends upon hiders and seekers to exhibit their best behavior. Good care of another's cache, while in the seeker's possession is essential for caches and their surroundings to continue to be viable. People who place caches in dangerous areas or make cache containers/contents dangerous will usually be quickly identified by the community. Sadly, in the case of the New York cachers, bad cachers may take considerably longer to identify.

 

There's always the option of ignoring their caches.

[Clan Riffster]

I put up with some bad behavior in a game once and finally stopped playing the game.

I can easily recommend the same to others.

If I've read your post correctly, you walked away from the goobers, leaving them to play their game.

If all of the reasonable, responsible, mature people walked away from this game, there'd only be goobers left.

I think it's best to get rid of the goobers, rather than quit something I enjoy.

[+joranda]

I put up with some bad behavior in a game once and finally stopped playing the game.

I can easily recommend the same to others.

If I've read your post correctly, you walked away from the goobers, leaving them to play their game.

If all of the reasonable, responsible, mature people walked away from this game, there'd only be goobers left.

I think it's best to get rid of the goobers, rather than quit something I enjoy.

 

If you get rid of all the geo-goobers then there will only be a handful of cachers left. I am sure we are all goobers in someone elses eyes. I know I am to some people and they don't even know me.

[+thedeadpirate]

I'm a goober, he's a goober, she's a goober, we're a goober. Wouldn't you like to be a goober, too?

[+joranda]

I just found this interesting post in another thread about close to the same topic but I find their email from GS to be two sided. I like the part that reads,"It does not give you the right to delete a log simply because you disagree with the comments made in the log or do not like the log owner." Isn't that the question that I was asking about but it is still aloud for some.

 

jellis Yesterday, 11:43 PM Post #50

 

Premium Member

 

Group: Premium Members

Posts: 220

Joined: 8-May 06

From: California & Washington

 

 

Yep you have to be careful what you delete. I had my reason for deleting a log but I guess the cacher is lying to GC. But I can't win. This is what I got.

 

The guidelines say that the cache owner has The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements. It does not give you the right to delete a log simply because you disagree with the comments made in the log or do not like the log owner. Please limit your log deletions to the guidelines and not for additional reasons not listed. The often stated comment that the cache owner has total control of the logs on a cache is not and has never been true. Only when the reason is legitimate should a log be deleted.

[Clan Riffster]

...but I guess the cacher is lying to GC.

That's a challenging task, when it comes to deleted logs.

It was my understanding that, when a CO deletes a log, the folks at Groundspeak can still see it.

I imagine fibs on both sides have been revealed this way in the past.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

I put up with some bad behavior in a game once and finally stopped playing the game.

I can easily recommend the same to others.

If I've read your post correctly, you walked away from the goobers, leaving them to play their game.

If all of the reasonable, responsible, mature people walked away from this game, there'd only be goobers left.

I think it's best to get rid of the goobers, rather than quit something I enjoy.

 

If it's general gooberation, I agree with you. Many of these games involve participation from people from various walks of life, beliefs and opinions, and experiences. Not only will there be unique points of view about how to play the game, there can naturally be some conflict between personalities about any number of things. That's just living life as one of a gabillion people on the planet.

 

But there's a line, I think, where one can say, "I don't have to put up with this." I think that line is generally when the irritation caused by others becomes impossible to ignore and overrules all enjoyment in playing the game. At that point, it's just ridiculous and an adult has to move on and leave those ... well, I don't think they would be goobers anymore but something more sinister... to their game. As adults, we really have no excuse not to make decisions that are in our best interests, whether that means a break from the game or quitting play altogether.

[+thedeadpirate]

Isn't that the question that I was asking about

Yes. Again, already answered a while back.

 

but it is still aloud for some.

No.

 

We've been told not to discuss particulars so I invite you to go back and read MissJenn's post and you will see the answer is NO. Things may just not move as quickly as you would like.

[+joranda]

...but I guess the cacher is lying to GC.

That's a challenging task, when it comes to deleted logs.

It was my understanding that, when a CO deletes a log, the folks at Groundspeak can still see it.

I imagine fibs on both sides have been revealed this way in the past.

 

Oh I am sure there has been white lies on both sides of the fences. But if a log book has a name on it it would be hard to cover it up unless you tore the sheet out but then there maybe be other names on the same sheet to where several didn't find it.

[+joranda]

Isn't that the question that I was asking about

Yes. Again, already answered a while back.

 

but it is still aloud for some.

No.

 

We've been told not to discuss particulars so I invite you to go back and read MissJenn's post and you will see the answer is NO. Things may just not move as quickly as you would like.

 

Not really and what particulars and you talking about, all that was was a copy and paste from another thread that had a pretty good answer to it.

[+thedeadpirate]

Not really and what particulars and you talking about

 

The particulars I am talking about are included in the link to MissJenn's post. But since we aren't allowed to discuss them, I am not going to quote them.

 

Let's just say that in general, if an issue involves a lot of people, it may take a while to resolve the situation. So if, generally speaking, you don't see things moving as quickly as you think they should, it does not mean that some people are allowed to get away with things while others are not. Generally speaking, the people directly involved, may want to contact GSK to find out what the status is.

[+Jumpin' Jack Cache]

My apologies for not holding to the "keep it general" rule, but you (or the person affected) seem determined to milk this for drama...

 

I know who is involved from reading this topic. I am not one of those who have deleted any of his finds and I don't know who has done so or why. I'm certainly not a member of the group who have been accused of attacking him at every turn...

 

I do know of two finds on my caches, one a "Found it" with no corresponding signature in the logbook (wasn't looking specifically, just noticed) and one EC for which the required questions were not answered.

 

For someone who likes to be strict with logging requirements on his own caches, he seems pretty lax in his own logging...

 

To the person who is the subject of this topic...man up. Drama Queen doesn't suit the persona you try to project in your profile and folks are not going to play your way or else. I've heard positive things and negative both about you from folks who have met you. Why not work on the positive?

[+joranda]

Not really and what particulars and you talking about

 

The particulars I am talking about are included in the link to MissJenn's post. But since we aren't allowed to discuss them, I am not going to quote them.

 

Let's just say that in general, if an issue involves a lot of people, it may take a while to resolve the situation. So if, generally speaking, you don't see things moving as quickly as you think they should, it does not mean that some people are allowed to get away with things while others are not. Generally speaking, the people directly involved, may want to contact GSK to find out what the status is.

 

Yeah he did that with no reply. But now it is getting into particulars again.

[+thedeadpirate]

Yeah he did that with no reply. But now it is getting into particulars again.

Which you seem hell bent on getting into. (I seriously doubt Groundspeak has said absolutely nothing in reply.)

 

It appears, based on JJC's post that you may not have all the facts. It would be a shame if you are in here going to bat for someone, only to find out later that he was not completely forthcoming with all the facts. You would look a bit silly.

 

Generally speaking it is best to let the people directly involved deal with these issues directly with Groundspeak. Unless you are privy, first hand, to all the facts involved, then you don't know if someone is using you or not.

 

Since you have been given the link to the KB, have quoted the pertinent sections of the quidelines, and quoted a direct message from GSK on a similar issue, then you have most definitely received the answer to your question. Online logs should not be deleted unless there is no corresponding signature in the physical logbook or the log contains spoilers.

 

Why not just leave it at that?

[+behind the camera]

Knowing the person you are talking about, they have been lax on your log finds for their caches...

 

 

For someone who likes to be strict with logging requirements on his own caches, he seems pretty lax in his own logging...

 

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Final warning.

 

Follow MissJenn's instructions.

 

DO NOT POST PARTICULARS. PERIOD.

 

If you do so, consider yourself kicked out of this thread for the remainder of it's existence.

 

Come on, folks. It's not that hard to follow.

 

Do NOT post about "this person" or "that person" or what happened on "this cache" or on "that cache".

 

Apologizing and then still posting contrary to the instructions is NOT okay.

 

If you want to discuss deletion of finds IN GENERAL, you may do so here.

 

If you want to discuss deletion of finds (yours or someone else's), please contact Groundspeak and follow their direction.

 

Every situation is different. Remember that.

[+behind the camera]

What is the right and wrong of deleting a log?

 

I have heard several versions of how this should be handled.

[+thedeadpirate]

What is the right and wrong of deleting a log?

 

Online logs should not be deleted unless there is no corresponding signature in the physical logbook or the log contains spoilers.

 

Even on extreme caches, if the signature is in the logbook, then it's a find.

[+The NVG]

I know joranda. One of THE best cachers in the WORLD. I do not say that lightly.

 

His point is simply: what can I do about my logs being incorrectly deleted?

 

SOLUTION:

 

Log your finds on one of your own archived caches referencing the GC#

 

Then

 

Move on

 

Life is too short

 

You KNOW you found it and anyone who knows you in your local community knows you found it.

 

Good luck, God bless, and we'll see you at Rend Lake.

[+ArtieD]

I know joranda. One of THE best cachers in the WORLD. I do not say that lightly.

 

[+AlohaBra and MaksMom]

I could have been an actor but I wound up here. I don't have to look good, I just have to be clear. Come and whisper in my ear.. Give us dirty laundry.

 

You don't want to know what's going on. You don't want to know how far it's gone. Eat your dirty laundry..

 

Love it...use to sing this one on the beach in Hawaii in the 80's...

Give me Dirty Laundry...

Sorry to be off topic..this one is quite a drama... but...sorry could't help the connection between the song and this drama (and the Eagles)...

Still don't know what happened...but that's OK..

Edited April 30, 2010 by alohabra

[+ArtieD]

I could have been an actor but I wound up here. I don't have to look good, I just have to be clear. Come and whisper in my ear.. Give us dirty laundry.

 

You don't want to know what's going on. You don't want to know how far it's gone. Eat your dirty laundry..

 

Love it...use to sing this one on the beach in Hawaii in the 80's...

Give me Dirty Laundry...

Sorry to be off topic..this one is quite a drama... but...sorry could't help the connection between the song and this drama (and the Eagles)...

Still don't know what happened...but that's OK..

 

I am glad I am not the only one to pick up on this...and yeah, I am clueless as well, but it seems rife with drama.

[+joranda]

I know joranda. One of THE best cachers in the WORLD. I do not say that lightly.

 

 

I can't wait until next year. I finally had my fill.

[+ArtieD]

I know joranda. One of THE best cachers in the WORLD. I do not say that lightly.

 

 

I can't wait until next year. I finally had my fill.

 

Good! I challenge you to a "Find the Nano In the Woods" contest at high noon...with Magellans!

[+joranda]

Rend Lake Woods is fine. It doesn't have to be noon either. See you there.

[+behind the camera]

How long should one wait for a response from GS after they have sent in a request to investigate a log deletion? A week? 2 weeks? a few months?

[+stanolli]

My deleted logs mentioned above have now been reinstated by GS.

Their first reply took a couple of weeks and they were sitting on the fence saying it was up to the CO, but they were monitoring the posts in the thread where I asked for information. After another couple of weeks they replied again and my logs were back.

I was a little dissapointed with the first reply, thinking this is why there is so much conflict over this subject, but they did not just drop it there and were very clear with their final decision. It took a month, but it was not a big deal and they must have more important issues to resolve.

TY to GS and all that offered advice.

[+Team Cotati]

How can one fix this problem?

Not look for caches owned by azzes and gurks, and other people that would delete finds for spite.

 

Is there a PQ filter for that?

[Motorcycle_Mama]

How long should one wait for a response from GS after they have sent in a request to investigate a log deletion? A week? 2 weeks? a few months?

If you have no response after a month, you should send another request. But you should also check with your ISP and make sure that they are not blocking or throttling emails from Groundspeak or Geocaching.com. Unfortunately, many ISP do this and people never receive the responses that have been sent out.

[+joranda]

It has been over a month now. Still no response.