Yet Aother bomb squadded lamp post (Anaheim)

[+Ambrosia]

I work for the fire department and we get daily updates about possible terrorists attacks or plans within the USA. What a lot of you are missing is the success we have had here in stopping or preventing these acts from happening. We, unlike other countries, have not had the daily attacks in our communities. We should not fear the large potential attacks to our communities, it's the small unthinkable attacks that will disrupt our lives.

 

It is the small explosions at the Walmart's, Starbuck's, McDonald's, etc. These places do not offer any security or have adequate resources to monitor what is going on around their businesses. How many of you would change your daily routine if attacks started to occur at these places. That's what terrorists are trying to accomplish. They want to disrupt your daily routine with the fear of the unkown and by doing this they succeded in their goal of disrupting the flnancial stability of our communities.

 

People sometimes think it's overkill to send a lot of fire engines, police, and other resources to these "false alarms", but we don't know it's a false alarm until the situation is assesed. What if it turns out to be real and we only sent one company to the scene and it detonates. Those departments would then be criticized for not sending out the appropriate resources and they should have prepared for the worst, so that is what we do.

 

Please do not criticize the work or protocol of those that risk everything to protect you. As one poster stated, it would be better if the cacher had permission to place there and had notified the businesses of the cache in their lot. This way those that were affected could let the police and fire know what it is they are dealing with sooner to mitigate the situation.

 

Geocaching is a game. Yet this game does set up the potential for actual terrorists attacks. Because of this reality, we must approach every call as the real thing until proven otherwise.

 

Not to be disrespectful (hey, my Dad's a volunteer Firefighter and an EMT First Responder, and my husband's an ex-firefighter and EMT) - but haven't the terrorists already won if their whole plan was to change our way of thinking and of life, "to disrupt your daily routine with the fear of the unkown"? They don't even need to bomb one single Wal-mart, and here we are, nine years after 9-11, constantly looking in the shadows waiting for them to do so. We don't need to wait for them to do more, for them to win, they've won already. We shouldn't be catering to them and to that way of thinking.

[+Cache O'Plenty]

Is this alarm just another case of not getting permission and letting the store management know there are caches there? Would this have happened anyway even if they did?

 

 

The problem is that getting permission just isn't realistic. Who do you ask? The day manager? Not there at night. The night manager? Not there during the day. You don't really think they are going to talk to each other, do you? Even if they do, the turn over rate is going to mean that the guy you got your blessing from might not be there next week. And which business do you get permission from? Do you also need to get permission from the property management company? How about the REIT that actually owns the property?

 

Also, what makes you think that anyone will ask the management if they know why someone was poking around a light pole?

 

The core problem is that people are just very poor at identifying risk. Starting with the people that reported this to the volunteers then the police that took the report from the volunteers. Then the management layer in the police that creates the policy. Someone lurking in a parking lot and fiddling with a light post might be a reasonable cause to think that vandalism or theft is happening or that drugs are being stashed - these are both reasonably frequent occurrences. It is NOT reasonable to jump to the possibility that someone is planting a bomb. It is not reasonable to think that Russian spys are passing secrets. It is not reasonable to think that aliens are planting egg sacs. It's like the saying goes - if you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebras.

 

My wife is a Property Manager for several commercial shopping centers. None of them have any caches in them so I asked: "Would you give permission for a cache if asked?" Her response is NO. She isn't about to grant permission when all it does is create additional risk to her and the owners. That just puts her in the position of knowing it exists and then the property is at risk should anything happen (i.e. someone slips while retrieving the cache). She would prefer to not be asked.

 

And, BTW, most Property Managers are "off-site" (except really large centers like shopping malls). So they wouldn't be available for the police to ask anyway.

 

And, yes, the parking lots are private property with "granted public access". The granted public access means that the public is allowed to enter the property in order to do business there. The parking lots are not there for the general public to park and head for the nearby park, to use as a "commuter lot", etc. They are there to support the businesses. Many parking lots around here now have small signs at the entrances that specify who can park there and what restrictions apply. (To date, I haven't seen one that says "No GeoCaching". Yet.)

Edited April 20, 2010 by Cache O'Plenty

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Is this alarm just another case of not getting permission and letting the store management know there are caches there? Would this have happened anyway even if they did?

 

 

The problem is that getting permission just isn't realistic. Who do you ask?

 

True. Usually the parking lot is not owned by the stores. You have to find out who owns the parking lot. And as you say, permission from the parking lot owner/company would probably do nothing about bomb squad calls. Plus I don't see a parking lot owner giving permission because of the huge PITA factor involved.

 

But since this is private property, and since so many of the geocaching bomb squad calls seem to be parking lot related, why does Groundspeak continue to allow this type of private property hide?

Because if they enforced the private property guideline then I believe that the majority of geocaches would have to be archived.

 

Yes, I said majority! Geocaching's "Dirty Little Secret" is that most caches have no permission at all.

 

It is every cacher's responsibility to determine what level of permission is 'adequate' and to get it. To list a cache you have to check a box stating that you did this.

 

There is no fine print that says that you don't have to get adequate permission if you don't know how, it might take some time or you just don't want to.

 

What would 'adequate permission' even mean in an LPC environment? The mall owner? Security? Local Police? Every store manager? With few exceptions LPCs ALL violate the permission guideline!

 

Bomb scares cannot be avoided by getting permission in a public/private mall environment. Groundspeak, however, can tell the bomb squad "They said they had permission! They broke the rules, not us!"

 

Note how quickly LPCs are archived after a bomb scare... like no one knew it didn't have permission to start with!

[+Ike 13]

 

The problem is that getting permission just isn't realistic. Who do you ask? The day manager? Not there at night. The night manager? Not there during the day. You don't really think they are going to talk to each other, do you? Even if they do, the turn over rate is going to mean that the guy you got your blessing from might not be there next week. And which business do you get permission from? Do you also need to get permission from the property management company? How about the REIT that actually owns the property?

 

Also, what makes you think that anyone will ask the management if they know why someone was poking around a light pole?

 

While I always try to get permission from someone, this is the argument that I've used in a similar thread. Explicit written permission is not going to change much of anything when big box stores are involved.

 

They were just doing their job, so I support them. But since any Law enforcement division can have a reviewer membership to see ALL cache locations is there an excuse for them not using it. Especially in Cali the state with the most caches.

[Pacific NW]

Sure wouldn't cry here if all LPC's were archived.

 

My prediction is that eventually, if there are enough of these scares, the responding public agencies will start charging for their response. Right or wrong, someone will be getting a bill. And I suspect it wouldn't be some anonymous cacher, but the deeper pockets of Groundspeak.

[+Lil Devil]

As one poster stated, it would be better if the cacher had permission to place there and had notified the businesses of the cache in their lot. This way those that were affected could let the police and fire know what it is they are dealing with sooner to mitigate the situation.

Not always the case. There was a case here in California where a cache was placed in front of a school with explicit permission from the principal. One day a teacher noticed someone replacing the cache and called the police. Hundreds of students were locked in their classrooms while the bomb squad dealt with it. Hundreds of parents were freaked out.

 

Why didn't the principal say something? He was out of the office that day.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

Sure wouldn't cry here if all LPC's were archived.

 

My prediction is that eventually, if there are enough of these scares, the responding public agencies will start charging for their response. Right or wrong, someone will be getting a bill. And I suspect it wouldn't be some anonymous cacher, but the deeper pockets of Groundspeak.

My opinion is that at some point, even if there is no law broken that can lead to criminal charges, there will be a civil suit for some of these business to recover lost income. How much money do you think a Walmart loses when they are shut down for 5 hours? It could easily be over 100K.

[+Jeep4two]

Is this alarm just another case of not getting permission and letting the store management know there are caches there? Would this have happened anyway even if they did?

 

Exactly what I was thinking. It doesn't matter. Jeremy Irish could have owned this Wal-Mart and personally given permission and held a ceremony, 3 day festival, parade and had a national holiday declared honoring this cache.

 

But in the end, the person on the phone calling in what they perceived as a threat would have still called 911 leading to the same events (since all the fanfare of my farcical Geocache dedication would have faded from the memory of the local population).

 

Personally I figure like may of you - it was good practice. Probably not a waste of money since I would imagine that to most first responders the desire to serve and the action of a call is what they really enjoy.

[+themood]

I work for the Fire Department that responded to this. First of all to everyone that says that the problem is that people need to think before calling in a bomb scare-or any type of emergency response- you are completely right. Unfortunately most people are just too lazy or lack the common sense to do do so. To everyone that has made statements about the overkill in the response or the fact that it took so long to get anything done, it must be nice to be an armchair expert calling a play by play from a two paragraph newspaper article. Everything was done with the safety of the rescuers and the local population in mind. These operations do not move quickly they move safely. Is it likely that there was a bomb in a film canister in front of a Wal Mart? Nope. Is it Possible? Absolutely. The bomb squad boys don't have the luxury of just assuming that since an object is small or innocent looking or in an unlikely spot that it is harmless. They have to follow the same protocol whether it is a film canister or a mortar round and again this is for THEIR safety and YOURS. In my opinion the question we should be asking is how can we all help prevent something like this from happening in the future. We can't change dumb people but we can be discrete when we are in public and label our caches on the outside to help with this. Will it stop these responses? Nope, but remember the more money these type of caches cost cities and local business owners and end up as 6 o'clock news stories, the more likely it is to be outlawed in cities. Oh yeah and to the poster who made the comment about bombs only having a one hour timer- are you for real? Maybe a little less time watching 24. Regards,

 

the mood

[knowschad]

I work for the Fire Department that responded to this. We can't change dumb people but we can be discrete when we are in public and label our caches on the outside to help with this. Will it stop these responses? Nope, but remember the more money these type of caches cost cities and local business owners and end up as 6 o'clock news stories, the more likely it is to be outlawed in cities.

Are you, as one that was there, and involved in the process, saying that without a doubt, having a label on this particular cache would have changed the outcome? The person in charge would have taken a look and said, "OK, everybody can go home now. Nothing to see here but a geocache."?

[+themood]

No of course not. As long as we are placing caches in urban areas this will continue to be a problem. Hopefully labeling them will help some knucklehead from calling in the first place

[knowschad]

No of course not. As long as we are placing caches in urban areas this will continue to be a problem. Hopefully labeling them will help some knucklehead from calling in the first place

How would that help? Did the person that called this one in first go over and lift the lampskirt to see if it really was a bomb (or anthrax or whatever hazard) as they suspected? If not, how would they see the label. If so, and they really believed there was a dangerous threat under that lampskirt, then they were being extremely reckless. Sorry, but I just don't believe a label is going to make any real difference. That said, I can appreciate where you're coming from.

[+Coldgears]

A little off topic but a thought just came into my head... What if someone posted the coordinates on this website. The geocache was actually a bomb... I'd hate to be FTF on that one...

[+GeePa]

A little off topic but a thought just came into my head... What if someone posted the coordinates on this website. The geocache was actually a bomb... I'd hate to be FTF on that one...

 

Don't you take that chance every time you go for any geocache? Even if others have logged it, unless you know that cacher, the online logs could all be fake too.

 

It is strange to me the way people seem to think that something somehow becomes more dangerous just because some scared person called it in. I gladly volunteer to be the first responder for any item that someone reports whose coordinates are listed on geocaching.com. I mean I don't see the problem, I already do it all the time every time I head out for a cache run.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

A little off topic but a thought just came into my head... What if someone posted the coordinates on this website. The geocache was actually a bomb... I'd hate to be FTF on that one...

 

All the FTF Hounds are thinking of creative ways to subconsciously program their fellow cachers to think like this. Yes... stay home... avoid FTF...

 

That aside, I live in FL. I'm more worried about poisonous snakes, hungry bobcats, angry wild hogs, poisonous spiders, fire ants, killer bees, and cranky squirrels than I am a potential bomb.

 

I suppose this line of thinking is a positive tick for cemetery caches. The muggles located there aren't likely to call in a bomb scare and it's highly unlikely anyone would place a bomb there. What would they do? Kill everyone again?

[+t4e]

 

Not to be disrespectful (hey, my Dad's a volunteer Firefighter and an EMT First Responder, and my husband's an ex-firefighter and EMT) - but haven't the terrorists already won if their whole plan was to change our way of thinking and of life, "to disrupt your daily routine with the fear of the unkown"? They don't even need to bomb one single Wal-mart, and here we are, nine years after 9-11, constantly looking in the shadows waiting for them to do so. We don't need to wait for them to do more, for them to win, they've won already. We shouldn't be catering to them and to that way of thinking.

 

QFT!!!!!

 

really sad that people had to become so paranoid about things that 10 years ago they would have never given them a second thought

[+thedeadpirate]

A little off topic but a thought just came into my head... What if someone posted the coordinates on this website. The geocache was actually a bomb... I'd hate to be FTF on that one...

 

All the FTF Hounds are thinking of creative ways to subconsciously program their fellow cachers to think like this. Yes... stay home... avoid FTF...

 

That aside, I live in FL. I'm more worried about poisonous snakes, hungry bobcats, angry wild hogs, poisonous spiders, fire ants, killer bees, and cranky squirrels than I am a potential bomb.

 

I suppose this line of thinking is a positive tick for cemetery caches. The muggles located there aren't likely to call in a bomb scare and it's highly unlikely anyone would place a bomb there. What would they do? Kill everyone again?

 

You should be carrying a gun.

[+Trucker Lee]

I've had experience where I've climbed up in a tree several times using a step-ladder and carrying tools to maintain and adjust a micro cache, which yielded absolutely no suspicion from people passing by in a high traffic area. It seems like the most suspicion is roused when a non-geocacher spots a geocacher trying to go unnoticed and be discreet. Is the new Stealth to be obvious? Heck, you can probably do anything you want with an orange vest, hard helmet and a clipboard.

 

Actually, being obvious is a great stealth tool. If your 5 yr old sneaks into or out of the kitchen, you are going to go check the cookie jar and box of popsicles. The kid was up to something! But if the same child runs the tap, drags the chair, and drops the glass in the sink, not a mother in the country is going to leave Oprah to check on anything.

[+bittsen]

I still find it hard to believe that some "good samaritan" felt that a lamp post micro was enough of a threat to call it in as a potential bomb.

 

Why doesn't the bomb squad investigate every car that sits in the parking lot for more than a few hours?

 

A lamp post skirt? Come on!!

[+lansharque]

Thats just classic.

 

it doesn't matter what you are doing in an urban environment if you are not following the same beaten paths as the rest of the ants you are suspicious and must be investigated and stopped.

[+The Kamikaze Clan]

Geocaching is a game. Yet this game does set up the potential for actual terrorists attacks. Because of this reality, we must approach every call as the real thing until proven otherwise.

 

We don´t have (almost) any domestic terrorists in Sweden, but geocaching bomb scares happens here to. Of course the police have to take it serious. Anything otherwise would be careless.

 

If it gets out that a bomb is suspected all the fancy equipment are needed. Not always for safety reasons, but because it´s expected to be that way from media/citizens. I found a few 100 year old grenades and a bomb fuse in one of our old museum houses at my work. I called the police and they got me in contact with an expert from the swedish military police. If I hadn´t been discret about it he had been forced to break out the fancy mattress dress and all the other things to make it look "real". Now he instead took the ordnance away in a safe way for him, although not that spectacular.

[hoosier guy]

“Not to be disrespectful (hey, my Dad's a volunteer Firefighter and an EMT First Responder, and my husband's an ex-firefighter and EMT) - but haven't the terrorists already won if their whole plan was to change our way of thinking and of life, "to disrupt your daily routine with the fear of the unkown"?”

 

I do not mean any disrespect either, but when one of your family members is killed by an IED will everyone shrug and say "well at least they didn't win by disrupting our daily routine!"?

 

I have heard many, and I am NOT saying you are doing this, ridicule public safety for planning, exercising and response activities. When something happens however where will all the fingers be pointing? Can't win for losing.

 

No, don't allow the bad guys to dictate your life, but do realize that the world is changing

[+Castle Mischief]

“Not to be disrespectful (hey, my Dad's a volunteer Firefighter and an EMT First Responder, and my husband's an ex-firefighter and EMT) - but haven't the terrorists already won if their whole plan was to change our way of thinking and of life, "to disrupt your daily routine with the fear of the unkown"?”

 

I do not mean any disrespect either, but when one of your family members is killed by an IED will everyone shrug and say "well at least they didn't win by disrupting our daily routine!"?

 

I have heard many, and I am NOT saying you are doing this, ridicule public safety for planning, exercising and response activities. When something happens however where will all the fingers be pointing? Can't win for losing.

 

No, don't allow the bad guys to dictate your life, but do realize that the world is changing

 

Yes, the world is changing... more cars on the road every year. You're more likely to be killed on the road than by bomb.

 

Are you planning on changing how much you drive due to the always increasing chances of being killed on the road?

[+thedeadpirate]

“Not to be disrespectful (hey, my Dad's a volunteer Firefighter and an EMT First Responder, and my husband's an ex-firefighter and EMT) - but haven't the terrorists already won if their whole plan was to change our way of thinking and of life, "to disrupt your daily routine with the fear of the unkown"?”

 

I do not mean any disrespect either, but when one of your family members is killed by an IED will everyone shrug and say "well at least they didn't win by disrupting our daily routine!"?

 

I have heard many, and I am NOT saying you are doing this, ridicule public safety for planning, exercising and response activities. When something happens however where will all the fingers be pointing? Can't win for losing.

 

No, don't allow the bad guys to dictate your life, but do realize that the world is changing

 

It's not the emergency response I am concerned about. I fully understand why once the machine is in motion it must play out a certain way.

 

What I am concerned about and what I think the person you're quoting is trying to say is that John Q. Public is allowing the terrorists to win because they are now finding boogie men around every corner and under every lamp post skirt.

 

I understand that the government is telling everyone to be more vigilant. But I'm just not ready to hand over all my freedoms just because terrorists want us to be just like them.

 

All I am saying is if someone is parking their car and they see someone place a small item under a lamppost skirt, think about it for a minute before calling 911. At least take the time to process it and see if it makes logical sense. If you still think it is a bomb, then go ahead and call it in. But don't turn America into a Big Brother state. We were heading that way fast enough before 9/11. I just hate to see the speed at which we are travelling now.

[hoosier guy]

“Not to be disrespectful (hey, my Dad's a volunteer Firefighter and an EMT First Responder, and my husband's an ex-firefighter and EMT) - but haven't the terrorists already won if their whole plan was to change our way of thinking and of life, "to disrupt your daily routine with the fear of the unkown"?”

 

I do not mean any disrespect either, but when one of your family members is killed by an IED will everyone shrug and say "well at least they didn't win by disrupting our daily routine!"?

 

I have heard many, and I am NOT saying you are doing this, ridicule public safety for planning, exercising and response activities. When something happens however where will all the fingers be pointing? Can't win for losing.

 

No, don't allow the bad guys to dictate your life, but do realize that the world is changing

 

Yes, the world is changing... more cars on the road every year. You're more likely to be killed on the road than by bomb.

 

Are you planning on changing how much you drive due to the always increasing chances of being killed on the road?

 

 

Yes, knowing that there are more distracted drivers, more drunk drivers and more inexperienced drivers I will drive more defensively.

Edited April 21, 2010 by hoosier guy

[+Frank Broughton]

It boggles the mind that people can be afraid of a film canister....

No timer mechanism. No fuse. Likely weighs just about nothing and the bomb squad thinks it can be a bomb.

 

Boggles, I tell ya!!

 

NO DOUBT! Reminds me of what Barney would have done. There is NO excuse for the behavior of those in change of this situation. A joke on society even.

Edited April 21, 2010 by Frank Broughton

[hoosier guy]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

[+Gamaliel]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

I'm trying to sleep, but somebody keeps blowing things up!

[+Castle Mischief]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

So answering a bomb call is doing violence? Huh?

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

But since this is private property, and since so many of the geocaching bomb squad calls seem to be parking lot related, why does Groundspeak continue to allow this type of private property hide?

Amen, brother!

[hoosier guy]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

So answering a bomb call is doing violence? Huh?

 

I call it standing ready to. This appears to be another thread that will go on forever and never have any resolution. I will not be able to convince the citizens who ridicule and poke fun at responders, then yell & cry for help and complain we did not come quick enough when they need us. So I bid this thread a fond fair well.

[+Ambrosia]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

[+Dread_Pirate_Bruce]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

 

A brilliant observation for the 1700s, but respectfully, I'm not sure about the 2000s. The world has changed a lot since then.

[+brslk]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

So answering a bomb call is doing violence? Huh?

 

I call it standing ready to. This appears to be another thread that will go on forever and never have any resolution. I will not be able to convince the citizens who ridicule and poke fun at responders, then yell & cry for help and complain we did not come quick enough when they need us. So I bid this thread a fond fair well.

 

I've always wonder why "responders" use the word "citizen" or "civilian" when they talk about anyone who is not a "responder"? Why the us vs. them attitude?

Are "responders" not citizens themselves? or are they better than the general public?

"responders" are always saying how they are just like every other group of people and have good and bad people in the group yet they insist on separating themselves from us "citizens".

Odd....

Edited April 22, 2010 by brslk

[+GeePa]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

 

A brilliant observation for the 1700s, but respectfully, I'm not sure about the 2000s. The world has changed a lot since then.

 

I feel it is just as relevant today as it was then. Great quote Ambrosia.

[ao318]

I've always wonder why "responders" use the word "citizen" or "civilian" when they talk about anyone who is not a "responder"? Why the us vs. them attitude?

Are "responders" not citizens themselves? or are they better than the general public?

"responders" are always saying how they are just like every other group of people and have good and bad people in the group yet they insist on separating themselves from us "citizens".

Odd....

The Fire Department and Police Department are considered "Public Safety".

 

Who is the public? The citizens or civilians of the community that the FD and PD provide service to.

 

You are correct in that we are all citizens and civilians, but there needs to be a separation or differentiation of those that are the "First Responders" and those that need the help and or assistance.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I've always wonder why "responders geocachers" use the word "citizen muggle" or "civilian mugglers" when they talk about anyone who is not a "responder geocacher"? Why the us vs. them attitude?

Are "responders geocachers" not citizens themselves? or are they better than the general public?

"responders geocachers" are always saying how they are just like every other group of people and have good and bad people in the group yet they insist on separating themselves from us "citizens muggles".

Odd....

Fixed it for ya!

Edited April 22, 2010 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Vater_Araignee]

I've always wonder why "responders geocachers" use the word "citizen muggle" or "civilian mugglers" when they talk about anyone who is not a "responder geocacher"? Why the us vs. them attitude?

Are "responders geocachers" not citizens themselves? or are they better than the general public?

"responders geocachers" are always saying how they are just like every other group of people and have good and bad people in the group yet they insist on separating themselves from us "citizens muggles".

Odd....

Fixed it for ya!

Dude I gotta say, no ya didn't.

Not that I'm disagreeing with your point just that you made an apple orange.

Had you tried to apple apple it then it would have been absurd.

as follows

I've always wonder why "responders geocachers" use the word "citizen muggle" or "civilian mugglers" when they talk about anyone who is not a "responder geocacher"? Why the us vs. them attitude?

Are "responders geocachers" not citizens muggles themselves? or are they better than the general public?

"responders geocachers" are always saying how they are just like every other group of people and have good and bad people in the group yet they insist on separating themselves from us "citizens muggles".

Odd....

Now that the editing is complete I can say...

Because it is them vs. us till they are us.

No geocachers are not muggles, some are maggots but not muggles.

Yes we are better than them, at finding the things hidden around them.

Finally, we are nothing like every other group, maybe as individuals we would be liken to this group or that group, hell I don't even fit in with the group that excepts me the most.

See? the fixed it for ya doesn't work.

[+Vater_Araignee]

I've always wonder why "responders" use the word "citizen" or "civilian" when they talk about anyone who is not a "responder"? Why the us vs. them attitude?

Are "responders" not citizens themselves? or are they better than the general public?

"responders" are always saying how they are just like every other group of people and have good and bad people in the group yet they insist on separating themselves from us "citizens".

Odd....

Yes they are citizens, no they are not civilians.

If my house is full of smoke and you kick my door in, you had better be a LEO or Firefighter because if you aint then you don't have the right and I'm gonna stat pointing at you as an arsonist.

 

~~~edit to remove nests~~~

Edited April 22, 2010 by Vater_Araignee

[+Ambrosia]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

 

A brilliant observation for the 1700s, but respectfully, I'm not sure about the 2000s. The world has changed a lot since then.

 

I feel it is just as relevant today as it was then. Great quote Ambrosia.

 

Thank you. Those who believe that things are any different today then they were then, are sadly deluding themselves.

[+brslk]

I've always wonder why "responders" use the word "citizen" or "civilian" when they talk about anyone who is not a "responder"? Why the us vs. them attitude?

Are "responders" not citizens themselves? or are they better than the general public?

"responders" are always saying how they are just like every other group of people and have good and bad people in the group yet they insist on separating themselves from us "citizens".

Odd....

Yes they are citizens, no they are not civilians.

If my house is full of smoke and you kick my door in, you had better be a LEO or Firefighter because if you aint then you don't have the right and I'm gonna stat pointing at you as an arsonist.

 

~~~edit to remove nests~~~

 

Technically everyone but those in the military are civilians. I know "first responders" like to compare themselves to those in the military but they are not.

This does not mean I don't respect LEOs. It just means I don't think they are any different than "civilians".

 

They have a job to do and so do "civilians". It doesn't make them special.

[+thedeadpirate]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

 

A brilliant observation for the 1700s, but respectfully, I'm not sure about the 2000s. The world has changed a lot since then.

 

That attitude is what made the Patriot Act reality and is why George Orwell's vision of the future is almost complete.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

This thread got way off track, didn't it?

 

A bomb squad followed their bomb squad procedure to neutralize an unknown parcel in a public area. That unknown parcel just happened to be a piece of a game we like to play and we know that it was harmless.

 

Where the heck does civil liberties and George Orwell come into that? Neither the 35mm container nor the camo duct tape it was wrapped with have any rights in our society. This is not symbolic of the state of our nation or demonstrative of any mindset. It was a thing left out in public and law enforcement blew it up. Anaheim emergency responders just had some more experience applying their skills and training in a situation where, thankfully, no harm came to anyone.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Redneck Parrotheads

[knowschad]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

 

A brilliant observation for the 1700s, but respectfully, I'm not sure about the 2000s. The world has changed a lot since then.

Yes, we no longer have the King's army storming into our houses and making themselves home there for months at a time. Etc.

[knowschad]

Where the heck does civil liberties and George Orwell come into that?

Its a tough chain to follow, but the logic is there, one post after another.

[+Team Geo-Rangers]

Is this alarm just another case of not getting permission and letting the store management know there are caches there? Would this have happened anyway even if they did?

 

 

The problem is that getting permission just isn't realistic. Who do you ask? The day manager? Not there at night. The night manager? Not there during the day. You don't really think they are going to talk to each other, do you? Even if they do, the turn over rate is going to mean that the guy you got your blessing from might not be there next week. And which business do you get permission from? Do you also need to get permission from the property management company? How about the REIT that actually owns the property?

 

Also, what makes you think that anyone will ask the management if they know why someone was poking around a light pole?

 

The core problem is that people are just very poor at identifying risk. Starting with the people that reported this to the volunteers then the police that took the report from the volunteers. Then the management layer in the police that creates the policy. Someone lurking in a parking lot and fiddling with a light post might be a reasonable cause to think that vandalism or theft is happening or that drugs are being stashed - these are both reasonably frequent occurrences. It is NOT reasonable to jump to the possibility that someone is planting a bomb. It is not reasonable to think that Russian spys are passing secrets. It is not reasonable to think that aliens are planting egg sacs. It's like the saying goes - if you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebras.

 

Loved this post which makes the point that no matter how many people the hider seeks permission from, it can never be enough until everyone knows about geocaching and feels comfortable to approach the suspicious looking 'geocacher' to ask what they are doing? Hope this quoted cacher posts more!!! Every geocacher gets caught in the act at some point in time, if you cache enough, so size up the person and decide the appropriate response when they ask. If they don't, approach them and explain that what you just did is harmless, so they don't assume or jump to conclusions and make the call that results in this. We need to avoid situations like this since it is our tax dollars being spent on training the local authorities and the game gets bad press too.

 

It's hard to recall that specific MA1 LPC hide, but found it a few years ago in Anaheim. Wonder which local cacher will dare to put another cache in play in that area, with a geo-label of course?!

 

Here's an older bomb squad incident on top of a rural dirt hill with no LPCs in sight. Sun City houses were at least 0.25 miles away and at the bottom of the undeveloped hill. A local resident saw my 4x4 vehicle go up the hill on a dirt road, thought it was suspicious, and called the authorities. The container was an ammo can: GCJ6Q9 Too bad the neighbor didn't try to contact me, otherwise would have explained it, thus avoiding the training that ensued. Enjoy!

 

Education is a better alternative versus not publishing caches in urban and/or rural areas. Given the growth rate of geocaches and geocachers, expect everyone will have heard of geocaching within 3 years. Appreciate that one of the responders to the Anaheim incident posted in our forum. Need to continue to get the word out. Cache on and do so as safely as possible.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

A local resident saw my 4x4 vehicle go up the hill on a dirt road, thought it was suspicious, and called the authorities.

 

Calling in a 4x4 going off-road is the single stupidest thing I've ever heard. Education would go a long way to helping prevent waste of time, money and resources but at some point, you just can't fix stupid.

[CoyoteRed]

It simply doesn't make sense to blindly go forward with multiple engines and bomb squads on a suspicious objects. Who was the first responder? Probably a cop. What was his take? What is his attitude?

 

I remember hearing radio traffic on a suspicious package at a Sears once. The responding officer advised he was en route and immediately afterward another officer requested he go the "talk channel." I flipped over and there was talk about being careful and look for wires. I could hear the eye-rolling from the responding officer. He shows up and it's two pieces of luggage at the loading area. The luggage looked like regular luggage. He took in the totality of the situation and concluded that someone took the luggage out of their car to get something loaded into the car and forgot to put the luggage back in. Sure enough, the luggage was completely empty. No bomb. Go figure. ...and didn't need a bomb squad to figure that out either.

 

I think a lot of first responders are thinking "this is the big one!" While a safe approach is logical, one has to ask where to draw the line where the response causes more public alarm than the object of attention in the first place.

[CoyoteRed]

A local resident saw my 4x4 vehicle go up the hill on a dirt road, thought it was suspicious, and called the authorities.

Calling in a 4x4 going off-road is the single stupidest thing I've ever heard. Education would go a long way to helping prevent waste of time, money and resources but at some point, you just can't fix stupid.

You don't know what else is going on out there. Could be some illegal dumping going on or other shenanigans. The local authorities could have asked the resident to call when they see anyone go up there. When shenanigans are happening, the last thing a resident wants to do is go and confront the persons themselves.

 

Yes, you can't fix stupid.

 

As a cop, I get calls for all kinds of things from residents who don't want to be contacted. Could be a barking dog, loud music, suspicious person, whatever. I don't mind these calls at all. I know it's a quality of life thing and I'd much rather go to a call like that than clean up the potential aftermath. Could be I saved someone from being punched in the mouth or catch the guy checking for unlocked doors to cars and taking their unsecured valuables. You never know.

[+Castle Mischief]

"Polite Men Sleep Well In Their Beds Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready To Do Violence On Their Behalf"

 

So answering a bomb call is doing violence? Huh?

 

I call it standing ready to. This appears to be another thread that will go on forever and never have any resolution. I will not be able to convince the citizens who ridicule and poke fun at responders, then yell & cry for help and complain we did not come quick enough when they need us. So I bid this thread a fond fair well.

 

Bone of contention #1: the quote is "...to stand ready to do violence on their behalf", not "to stand ready". That's like saying "to be prepared to fight each other with silly string until the death of a hamster" is the same as "to be prepared to fight until death". You can't cherry-pick the words in the quote as you like to make a point.

 

Bone of contention #2: Using a quote as a "proof" is the 2nd lamest act on the internet. It doesn't prove that you are right, it doesn't provide any facts- all it does is show that somewhere in the annals of time some other person had a similar thought as you or said something that semi-relates to the topic at hand. I don't care if you pull a Winston Churchill quote from a Google search- it's not like Winston rose from the grave, held a press conference and said "I am Zombie Churchill, and I support this post".

 

Finally, I am not "ridiculing and poking fun at" the people on the ground that are doing their job. I understand that they have family and loved ones at home and want nothing more but to go home at the end of the day and return to those people. I am, however, being critical of the chain of events that lead up to these media events- just as the Law Enforcement Officers that post on these forums have done.

 

If I was on the bomb squad and I was called out to a lamppost, I'd have no hesitation to 'splode that sucker all the way to Planet Archive.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Castle Mischief