What has better aerial imagery Delorme or Garmin Birdseye?

[+CacheFreakTim]

So I am trying to decide my next GPS and have come down to deciding between the Delorme PN series and the Garmin Oregon/Dakotas. One of the main factors in the decision will be aerial imagery. Since Garmins birdseye is so new I have yet to see a good comparison of it and Delormes subscription service.

 

For those who have seen both which has the best quality aerial images? If anyone has any screen shots of them side by side that would be amazing.

Edited April 20, 2010 by MustangTim

[+dakboy]

One thing to keep in mind is the licensing of the imagery.

 

Garmin locks your images to a single GPS. If you ever upgrade your GPS, you have to buy again.

 

Once you download imagery from DeLorme, it's yours to use with as many DeLorme devices & applications as you own.

 

"Best quality" is going to vary. A lot. There's a lot of variation in quality within DeLorme's own Map Library (DeLorme doesn't do their own imagery, they acquire it from a few government agencies), year to year, due to different environmental conditions.

[+Triple Crown]

So I am trying to decide my next GPS and have come down to deciding between the Delorme PN series and the Garmin Oregon/Dakotas. One of the main factors in the decision will be aerial imagery. Since Garmins birdseye is so new I have yet to see a good comparison of it and Delormes subscription service.

 

For those who have seen both which has the best quality aerial images? If anyone has any screen shots of them side by side that would be amazing.

 

DeLorme has pretty good imagery for most of the US but great high def imagery for only a few major cities. I think less than 30. (San Diego is NOT one of them)

 

The other thing to consider is the number of pixels on the screen. I tried the PN-40 but when you zoom in close the image pixilates because the screen on the unit has fewer pixels.

 

The Oregon & Dakota series have more pixels and therefore can display better resolution. The tradeoff is less visibility in bright sunlight. On my Oregon 300 with a 'highest' quality image I can tell which car is in the driveway and it's great for urban caching.

 

I had the PN-40 but returned it for the Oregon 300. If I was shopping today I would definitely get the Oregon 450/550 because its screen is better than the 200/300/400 screens.

[+CrimsonPirate]

So I am trying to decide my next GPS and have come down to deciding between the Delorme PN series and the Garmin Oregon/Dakotas. One of the main factors in the decision will be aerial imagery. Since Garmins birdseye is so new I have yet to see a good comparison of it and Delormes subscription service.

 

For those who have seen both which has the best quality aerial images? If anyone has any screen shots of them side by side that would be amazing.

 

DeLorme has pretty good imagery for most of the US but great high def imagery for only a few major cities. I think less than 30. (San Diego is NOT one of them)

 

The other thing to consider is the number of pixels on the screen. I tried the PN-40 but when you zoom in close the image pixilates because the screen on the unit has fewer pixels.

 

The Oregon & Dakota series have more pixels and therefore can display better resolution. The tradeoff is less visibility in bright sunlight. On my Oregon 300 with a 'highest' quality image I can tell which car is in the driveway and it's great for urban caching.

 

I had the PN-40 but returned it for the Oregon 300. If I was shopping today I would definitely get the Oregon 450/550 because its screen is better than the 200/300/400 screens.

 

I am totaly clueless regarding the DeLorme but I can comment on the Oregon 550. Regardless of a direct unit comparison, the Garmin has a huge disadvantage. BaseCamp, the PC program that downloads BirdsEye images and installs them on the GPSr, is atrocious. I don't know if the MAC version is any better. Buggy and slow is only the beginning. It crashes frequently when there is high tide, the moon is blue or for any other inexplicable reason. A 300 MB map can typically take upward of 8 hours to download. The $30 subscription per year is livable but considering what's involved may not be such a hot concept.

I am definately not anti-Garmin, I do like my 550 to the extreme. But when it comes to BirdsEye-related issues, I am hugely disappointed.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

I am totaly clueless regarding the DeLorme but I can comment on the Oregon 550. Regardless of a direct unit comparison, the Garmin has a huge disadvantage. BaseCamp, the PC program that downloads BirdsEye images and installs them on the GPSr, is atrocious. I don't know if the MAC version is any better. Buggy and slow is only the beginning. It crashes frequently when there is high tide, the moon is blue or for any other inexplicable reason. A 300 MB map can typically take upward of 8 hours to download. The $30 subscription per year is livable but considering what's involved may not be such a hot concept.

I am definately not anti-Garmin, I do like my 550 to the extreme. But when it comes to BirdsEye-related issues, I am hugely disappointed.

These are some very good operational considerations.

With the DeLorme subscription, I have downloaded about 55GB of imagery. That took considerable effort and time.

It has to then be "cut" and saved, I prefer 1 to 1.5GB chunklets, back to my hard drive.

To transfer those to my SD card is subsequently no big deal.

Most of the PN-30, -40 users, myself included, use a 16GB card although 32GB cards are supported.

Then with the 16GB card, I don't have to fool too much exchanging imagery in preparation for a trip to a different area.

 

As a point of reference, think about using a 256MB card of several years ago.

One would have to strip out and replace maps to have a Big Mac for lunch and then again for Col. Sanders supper.

[+dakboy]

Regardless of a direct unit comparison, the Garmin has a huge disadvantage. BaseCamp, the PC program that downloads BirdsEye images and installs them on the GPSr, is atrocious. I don't know if the MAC version is any better. Buggy and slow is only the beginning. It crashes frequently when there is high tide, the moon is blue or for any other inexplicable reason. A 300 MB map can typically take upward of 8 hours to download. The $30 subscription per year is livable but considering what's involved may not be such a hot concept.

I am definately not anti-Garmin, I do like my 550 to the extreme. But when it comes to BirdsEye-related issues, I am hugely disappointed.

In the interest of full disclosure, a lot of people allege that TopoUSA (DeLorme's software) has a very steep learning curve.

 

But I've never heard of it being "buggy and slow" - downloads may take a while, but not 8 hours for 300MB (actually, each map package you pull from the Map Library is limited to about 150MB, but anyway...) and speed is largely determined by the speed of your hard drive - but I've never heard of people having significant stability issues.

Edited April 20, 2010 by dakboy

[+northernpenguin]

Being Canadian, Delorme isn't much of an option for me. Garmin Birdseye supports the whole country, at least as well as Google Maps does. I have noticed some parts of Southwestern Ontario don't have very good coverage in terms of resolution - see Blyth / Huron County for example.

 

I will agree with the above poster that Basecamp, while easy to use, can be a painfully slow beast when overloaded.

[+dakboy]

Being Canadian, Delorme isn't much of an option for me. Garmin Birdseye supports the whole country, at least as well as Google Maps does. I have noticed some parts of Southwestern Ontario don't have very good coverage in terms of resolution - see Blyth / Huron County for example.

DeLorme has said that more imagery options are coming later this spring/summer.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

In the interest of full disclosure, a lot of people allege that TopoUSA (DeLorme's software) has a very steep learning curve.

Yes, it's been a while since the last of those allegations, but I do recall them.

 

They were usually offered in the context of should I buy a DeLorme PN-40, or something else.

 

Well, in such a comparative context, what is the learning curve steepness of the in-the-box, bundled software provided with a non-DeLorme handheld GPSr?

 

Or, perhaps the alternatives do not have such software and if not, what is the relevance of the allegation?

 

Nobody has stepped up with a side-by-side, keystroke-by-keystroke description of an editing task as performed with other software.

 

For example, I could provide the following:

1. Transfer two disconnected tracks from a PN-40 to Topo USA 8.0,

2. Use the drawing tool to define an intermediate track following an existing trail from aerial photo imagery.

3. Join the three pieces into one continuous track.

 

Anybody?

Edited April 20, 2010 by Team CowboyPapa

[+Redwoods Mtn Biker]

I think we're getting OT here, but...

 

Rather than such an esoteric task, I'd suggest some standard uses like:

• Create and name a waypoint and transfer it to unit
  
• Create a route from five pre-existing waypoints and transfer it to the device
  
• Open a .gpx track file and transfer it to the device
  

[+dakboy]

Rather than such an esoteric task, I'd suggest some standard uses like:

• Create and name a waypoint and transfer it to unit
  
• Create a route from five pre-existing waypoints and transfer it to the device
  
• Open a .gpx track file and transfer it to the device
  

Or perhaps selecting, downloading, & preparing imagery to be used on the GPSr? Since that's the topic at hand, anyway.

[+northernpenguin]

Being Canadian, Delorme isn't much of an option for me. Garmin Birdseye supports the whole country, at least as well as Google Maps does. I have noticed some parts of Southwestern Ontario don't have very good coverage in terms of resolution - see Blyth / Huron County for example.

DeLorme has said that more imagery options are coming later this spring/summer.

 

Based on my earlier dealings with Delorme and their lack of Canadian Map support, I'm not going to hold my breath for satellite imagery to become available. Maybe Southern Ontario as the band sweeps across from Michigan to New York but pretty unlikely we'll see imagery of Val D'or.

 

Delorme makes a great product, but to a Canadian you might as well save the money and get a Yellow Etrex for all the map support we've got ... and yet it would take less time for a Delorme tech to drive to Canada from their office in Maine than it would take to visit 90% of their customer base in the USA.

[+user13371]

I, too, would be interested in seeing a side by side comparison of some areas from DeLorme's hi-res imagery and Garmin's.

[+dakboy]

Being Canadian, Delorme isn't much of an option for me. Garmin Birdseye supports the whole country, at least as well as Google Maps does. I have noticed some parts of Southwestern Ontario don't have very good coverage in terms of resolution - see Blyth / Huron County for example.

DeLorme has said that more imagery options are coming later this spring/summer.

 

Based on my earlier dealings with Delorme and their lack of Canadian Map support, I'm not going to hold my breath for satellite imagery to become available. Maybe Southern Ontario as the band sweeps across from Michigan to New York but pretty unlikely we'll see imagery of Val D'or.

 

Delorme makes a great product, but to a Canadian you might as well save the money and get a Yellow Etrex for all the map support we've got ... and yet it would take less time for a Delorme tech to drive to Canada from their office in Maine than it would take to visit 90% of their customer base in the USA.

DeLorme already has vector maps & streets comparable to the US for Canada, and released 1:50K topo "sheets" (similar to the USGS 24K quads) in the Map Library last fall. Imagery is still a good possibility

[+Team CowboyPapa]

I think we're getting OT here, but...

 

Rather than such an esoteric task, I'd suggest some standard uses like:

• Create and name a waypoint and transfer it to unit
  
• Create a route from five pre-existing waypoints and transfer it to the device
  
• Open a .gpx track file and transfer it to the device
  

Yes, but does not such a simple and mundane task as described in the quote above undermine the object of determing comparative steepness (a characteristic introduced above in post #6)?

 

But now that I've collected the tracks, drawn the intermediate, connecting line and joined them:

Prior to joining:

http://mapshare.delorme.com/Consumer/V.aspx?p=zc3rqkzc

After joining:

http://mapshare.delorme.com/Consumer/V.aspx?p=58cg2j6k

Edited April 20, 2010 by Team CowboyPapa

[+user13371]

Cowboy, that's sure good to know!

 

Um... do you have anything on the original topic of comparing Garmin's "Birdseye" images to DeLorme's Hi-res city images?

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Cowboy, that's sure good to know!

 

Um... do you have anything on the original topic of comparing Garmin's "Birdseye" images to DeLorme's Hi-res city images?

That which I have offered above is an example of the DeLorme Hi-Res imagery.

But no, Lee, I have nothing of a comparative nature, Birdseye, to provide.

[+Native20559]

Cowboy, that's sure good to know!

 

Um... do you have anything on the original topic of comparing Garmin's "Birdseye" images to DeLorme's Hi-res city images?

That which I have offered above is an example of the DeLorme Hi-Res imagery.

But no, Lee, I have nothing of a comparative nature, Birdseye, to provide.

 

You don't need to settle for "just" one or the other. I thought the imagery on both is pretty pathetic compared to whats available on Google and Bing, as well as a host of others offering free imagery. Two terrific free software packages let you either Bing map imagery (BingMaps, http://www.mad-prof.co.uk/software/mapping) or any other internet based map imagery supported (Mobile Atlas Creator, http://mobac.dnsalias.org/). They're fast and easy to use. Mobile Atlas Creator seems to be the most powerful and not just limited to aerial imagery. I like them so much I just got my refund on my Garmins Birdseye subscription (hardly needed much justification considering how badly it functioned, when it functioned, if it functioned).

 

Give'em a look.

 

Be safe.

 

N

[+user13371]

Native -- if the best choice is to roll your own with Mobac, that favors users of Garmin hardware over DeLorme -- because you can load a custom map on a Garmin without buying extra software while a DeLorme user would need to buy XMap.

 

Unless Mobac can create DeLorme format PM0 files now?

[+Cache Liberation Front]

Re: the last two posts mentioning Mobac.

 

It's no doubt great software, but it's really not a Birdseye replacement. The "custom" maps you can create with Mobac are VERY limited in tiles/map count size. That is, at a 19 zoom level, you can only cover a few square miles of Google Earth maps. Garmin just doesn't allow for more custom map space on your unit as any given moment. So if you plan on caching in anything other than a tiny park, you won't get the map coverage you want.

 

Using Birdseye maps, however, allow you to use a GREAT deal more square miles of coverage (I'm not sure, but I think only limited by your SD card size).

[+user13371]

CLF, are you actually using Birdseye? And downloading large areas of hi-res imagery?

 

One of the difficulties I had trying that with my DeLorme subscription was that the image files were quite large to cover any significant area, and the time for downloadiing (as well as finding disk space to save & back-up all the imagery I might want) proved to be more trouble than it was worth. It got to the point where I limited myself to very small areas, spot-loads of area where I might be hiking or geocaching. And after a while I just stopped using it entirely.

 

From some of the hands-on reviews I've seen, Garmin users are getting a dose of the same reality DeLorme subscribers have known for a year or more: Big areas of imagery = huge files, long downloads, cumbersome to use. I'm not sure Garmin can change that. You really have to WANT or NEED imaegry on your GPS, a lot, to make it worth the effort.

 

As Native (and others) have indicated, Google and Bing have set expectations pretty high for online mapping and imagery. They have the advatnge of serving up just the bits you want, when you want, on demand. When at home both of these services will be good enough -- or even better -- for many users.

 

SO... (hold on, I had a point around here somewhere) ... oh, here it is: if MOBAC can build custom maps from those data sources, even though limited to small areas, that may also be good enough for a lot of users -- because they're not going to want to bother building larger imagery collections.

Edited April 22, 2010 by lee_rimar

[+Cache Liberation Front]

 

SO... (hold on, I had a point around here som,ewhere) ... oh, here it is: if MOBAC can build custom maps from those data sources, even though limited to small areas, that may also be good enough for a lot of users.

 

Oh, no doubt is great software, and I use it, too. But I just find the sq mileage "custom map" usage gives me as too limiting. My hiking/caching takes me into areas that are simply too big for custom maps to cover.

 

I do use Birdseye, as well. I've been slowly (of course we all know now it's slow), I've been SLOWLY downloading the largest 300M chunks using Birdseye, building up a rather modest collection of maps now. Yes it can take days to get that 300M, but I have the foresight to start the download ahead of time, so it hasn't been a problem (yet). And that 300M maps gets me MANY more square miles of coverage (this is key, MANY more miles), which in the field is really quite helpful.

 

Sure the actual Birdseye framework is clunky and Garmin should be ashamed. But it hasn't crashed on me yet (Win7 64 bit, 4G RAM), and I'm filling up an SD card rather nicely.

[+TotemLake]

. Yes it can take days to get that 300M, but I have the foresight to start the download ahead of time, so it hasn't been a problem (yet).

Imagine that. Something I espoused a year ago. Planning ahead.

[+Native20559]

Native -- if the best choice is to roll your own with Mobac, that favors users of Garmin hardware over DeLorme -- because you can load a custom map on a Garmin without buying extra software while a DeLorme user would need to buy XMap.

 

Unless Mobac can create DeLorme format PM0 files now?

 

Mobile Atlas Creator and Bing Maps will kick out maps in a variety of map file extension formats the most friendly of which is .KMZ. And Using Xmap is no different than using Base Camp, the idea of which is to access better imagery than the the stock imagery generally available for Delorme or Garmin GPS's. In either case people no longer need to pay for their imagery with these choices.

 

Be safe.

 

N

[Tomas4x4]

You don't need to settle for "just" one or the other. I thought the imagery on both is pretty pathetic compared to whats available on Google and Bing, as well as a host of others offering free imagery. Two terrific free software packages let you either Bing map imagery (BingMaps, http://www.mad-prof.co.uk/software/mapping) or any other internet based map imagery supported (Mobile Atlas Creator, http://mobac.dnsalias.org/). They're fast and easy to use. Mobile Atlas Creator seems to be the most powerful and not just limited to aerial imagery. I like them so much I just got my refund on my Garmins Birdseye subscription (hardly needed much justification considering how badly it functioned, when it functioned, if it functioned).

Oh, no doubt is great software, and I use it, too. But I just find the sq mileage "custom map" usage gives me as too limiting. My hiking/caching takes me into areas that are simply too big for custom maps to cover.

 

I do use Birdseye, as well. I've been slowly (of course we all know now it's slow), I've been SLOWLY downloading the largest 300M chunks using Birdseye, building up a rather modest collection of maps now. Yes it can take days to get that 300M, but I have the foresight to start the download ahead of time, so it hasn't been a problem (yet). And that 300M maps gets me MANY more square miles of coverage (this is key, MANY more miles), which in the field is really quite helpful.

 

Sure the actual Birdseye framework is clunky and Garmin should be ashamed. But it hasn't crashed on me yet (Win7 64 bit, 4G RAM), and I'm filling up an SD card rather nicely.

 

I have tried Mobile Atlas Creator and I like a lot. Choice of so many sources is huge plus.

 

Unfortunately, the limitation on KMZ files (maximum size as well as the fact that you can only have ONE on the unit) is rather severe. I am pretty sure that this limitation is quite intentional to ensure that there is no real competition for BirdsEye.

 

The real game change will happen when Mobile Atlas Creator or some other software starts generating JNX files. The chance of that happening, I hope, is good.

 

Until then though, we will have to live with BirdsEye "performance" and BaseCamp crashes (I am a subscriber). Let's hope Garmin will fix these crashes soon. I am having quite a bit of trouble after downloading some 15 large areas of BirdsEye: there are random crashes when I attempt to download another set, I have to select the area and start download at least 2 or 3 times before it actually starts happening. It typically crashes after the first try and new selection is gone, it crashes second time but usually the selection is still there after a restart. After that the download progresses slowly but very rarely crashes (best to leave it on overnight or while at work).

 

One "feature" I really hate about BirdsEye is that it looks washed out when displayed on the GPS unit (Colorado 300). Not sure if the whitening is happening when the JNX file is created or when the content is displayed on unit's screen but it could make images which are often low contrast already almost useless because the terrain features are hard to see.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Regardless of which make and model of handheld GPSr that you are (contemplating) using or your source of aerial, or satellite, photo imagery, here is a great deal on a 16GB SDHC card (similar to the one that I use in my DeLorme PN-40):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...1-245-_-Product

[+Native20559]

"I have tried Mobile Atlas Creator and I like a lot. Choice of so many sources is huge plus.

 

Unfortunately, the limitation on KMZ files (maximum size as well as the fact that you can only have ONE on the unit) is rather severe. I am pretty sure that this limitation is quite intentional to ensure that there is no real competition for BirdsEye.

 

The real game change will happen when Mobile Atlas Creator or some other software starts generating JNX files. The chance of that happening, I hope, is good.

 

Until then though, we will have to live with BirdsEye "performance" and BaseCamp crashes (I am a subscriber). Let's hope Garmin will fix these crashes soon. I am having quite a bit of trouble after downloading some 15 large areas of BirdsEye: there are random crashes when I attempt to download another set, I have to select the area and start download at least 2 or 3 times before it actually starts happening. It typically crashes after the first try and new selection is gone, it crashes second time but usually the selection is still there after a restart. After that the download progresses slowly but very rarely crashes (best to leave it on overnight or while at work).

 

One "feature" I really hate about BirdsEye is that it looks washed out when displayed on the GPS unit (Colorado 300). Not sure if the whitening is happening when the JNX file is created or when the content is displayed on unit's screen but it could make images which are often low contrast already almost useless because the terrain features are hard to see.

 

 

I don't believe this is accurate. You can have as many as 100 tiles, internal memory size or SD card size being the only other delimiter.

 

Be safe.

 

N

Edited April 22, 2010 by Native20559

[+RangerR47]

I don't believe this is accurate. You can have as many as 100 tiles, internal memory size or SD card size being the only other delimiter.

 

Be safe.

 

N

 

I would like to know this for sure as well, can you have several kmz files but only one or a couple with 100 tiles total active? But still have others on the same card not active and swap back and forth if needed? If they would just open that 100 tile thing up just a bit it would really help alot. I just discovered the MAC software and really like it , but would like bigger areas usable.

[+Red90]

With Garmin's custommaps you can only have 100 pictures up to 1 megapixel each total on the device. You can have multiple KMZ files.

 

There is no known limit on Birdseye. Basecamp is a little slow, but I've had no crash problems. The lightening of the pictures is to make other data viewable and works well.

[+Redwoods Mtn Biker]

But you cannot selectively enable certain KMZ files. Its all or nothing.

[+Searching_ut]

I haven't tried birdseye yet, and from what I've been reading here, I probably won't for at least a little while. I had a subscription to Delormes download service for my PN-40, but I let it expire, and hardly downloaded anything because it just wasn't worth my time. I've used delormes TOPO off and on since the first version, but never been a fan of it. I find it kind of like visiting the dentist. I only do it when I have to.

 

I do on occasion download aerial photos to my Dakota using TopoFusion, but you're limited by the hundred tiles thing so you can't download much area. For the most part, you can download higher res images than what I was getting on my PN-40, but the display on the dakota isn't the greatest at showing color and contrast so it doesn't look as good as the PN-40 images IMO (One of the other posts mentions washed out, which pretty much describes it). As mentioned, I don't know what the birdseye photo quality is, so I don't know if it's more detailed or not.

 

Now, if someone can only figure out how to bust the tile size limit so that we could use decent software like TopoFusion to take care of selecting and downloading our aerial photo, topo maps etc we'd be set. It allows you to connect tracks, draw out your own to upload to your gps, and even manages trail/track networks much more easily than what you can do with either the delorme or garmin software. I've used it since it first came out, and pretty much don't use the other stuff except for loading maps into my units.