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A MONUMENTAL TASK

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(PLSS)May 7, 1785,The Present System of Governmental Land Surveys.Adopted By Congress. I would like to start a forum starting from the Beginning,so that all can understand and that we are all on the same page here in our explanations and defanitions to these matters.We have some here whom are really educated in these matters now,and could help to shed the light in the proper way to analize the data,and questions that I know we all have.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

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First Maps Jefferson-Fry http://www.aradergalleries.com/gallery/Maps/midatlantic-jeff-fry.htmTime line 1785 http://www.enlou.com/time/year1785.htm

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer # 1 on July 14, 2003 at 09:54 PM.]

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I think I'm confused about this topic. Here is where I'm at:

 

1. There is a system of land surveys for governmental and property boundaries. There are 'monuments' for these.

 

2. There is a system of geodetic surveys for establishing points on the Earth's surface with very accurate horizontal coordinates and/or vertical elevations. There are 'monuments' for these.

 

Unless there's a convenience factor, or some geodetic surveyor thought it was cool to use a boundary monument as a geodetic monument, there is no relationship between the monuments of #1 and #2 above.

 

Of course, if someone really wants to know exactly where on Earth a #1 monument is, calculations from a survey from it to a #2 monument would reveal that information. I imagine that this has been done with all the important #1 monuments. I also believe that any present-day setting of type #1 monuments are done by surveying from type #2 monuments.

 

Benchmark hunting is all about #2.

 

This topic seems to be about #1, not #2. Since I'm only interested in #2 at this time, I have no real questions about #1, don't have any data to analyze about #1, and have no worries or concerns with #1. Should I?

 

Is this topic:

 

A. To have fun learning about the history of #1 and its mapping?

 

B. To figure out some significant pressing problem concerning #1?

 

C. To figure out some problem with the relationship between #1 and #2?

 

I don't know whether the topic is about A, B, or C, and if B or C, what the problem actually is; hence my confusion about this topic.

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Black Dog, you are absolutely correct about the relationship of boundary/property surveys and geodetic surveys.

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#1. Govt.for property.This for the Public Lands. http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=EH2910 the Initial Point this is also a #2 ???? so why is this relationship here if one is one thing and the other is another. A,B,C that is Trilateration of a three point problem,and also a project I have been trying to work out.a jump ahead, Trilateration http://lazarus.crc-lennox.qc.ca/~eric/tril.html

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer # 1 on July 15, 2003 at 04:16 PM.]

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I don't think anyone has ever really done the math, but I would think that a conservative estimate is that less than 0.5% of the PLSS markers in the U.S. are also part of the National Spatial Reference System. While many of the principal points (base lines and meridians) were originally observed by astronomic methods, this does not make them part of the national reference system.

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What is the National Reference System and what is it's Initial Point? Is this what you are refering to, http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/develop_NSRS.html Quite a number of the older Pre dating 1900 are referenced to it as well, as you say I have never really done the math or had the capability to do so until recently.But the control points according to the outline presented in this link Alot of it was tied to the "BLUE BOOK" Surveys.As I understand it all mapping has progressed through the keeping of these marks as references from the Diffrent datums that we have had the Original Data, 1927,1929,1960's 1973...NAVD 88 99,2003? http://www.blm.gov/cadastral/Manual/nextedition.htm

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer # 1 on July 15, 2003 at 09:01 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer # 1 on July 15, 2003 at 09:24 PM.]

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There is a paper I wrote -- Development of the National Spatial Reference System, available from the NGS web site -- http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/develop_NSRS.htmlIt details the many elements that make up the realization of our national horizontal and vertical datums. Our current national datums, NAD 83 (horizontal) and NAVD 88 (vertical) have their origins at Earth Mass Center and a bench mark the long-term tide gauge at Fathers Point in Quebec respectively. Our previous horizontal datums NAD 27, NAD and U.S. Standard Datum going back to 1901 had their originals at the triangulation station MEADES RANCH, in Kansas --KG0640. Other U.S. related datums such as the Old Hawaiian and Puerto Rico datums had their origins at stations Oahu West Base TU1252 and Cardona Island Lighthouse TV0376 respectively. The datums were incorporated into NAD 83 by the use of the Navy's Transit Doppler Satellite system (the predecessor to GPS).

 

The first geodetic horizontal datums of the U.S. were local astronomic datums compiled by the Survey of the Coast (later to become NGS) beginning with the first geodetic survey of 1816 (see -- http://www.lib.noaa.gov/edocs/CONTENTS.htm). As the surveys and the country grew the east and west coasts geodetic networks were finally connected by the completion of the Transcontinental Arc of Triangulation, observed 1872 - 1898.

The original points for the previous vertical datum - NGVD 29 included 26 long-term tide gauges along the East, Gulf and West coasts. Similar to the horizontal, the vertical networks were connected coast to coast around 1899.

 

The Public Land Survey System (PLSS) was initiated by the Land Ordinance of 1785 and surveys to subdivide the western lands were conducted under that act. The development of Townships and Ranges, subdivided into Sections was surveyed by both government and contract surveyors and connected to "Initial Points" of Baselines and Meridians of which there are 36 I believe. The initial points were established by astronomic observations, similar in many ways to those observed for the geodetic networks. The extension or densification of the initial points into the townships, ranges and section corners was typically conducted by compass and 2-pole chains (33 ft). I am not aware of any systematic attempts by the PLSS surveyors to compute the latitude and longitude of the monuments they set other than the initial points. Only within recent years has there been any attempt by communities to try and determine quality coordinates for their PLSS corners. This effort is limited however by the high cost of such surveys. There are excellent descriptions of PLSS available in the Bureau of Land Managements "Manual of Surveying Instructions 1973" -- http://www.az.blm.gov/cadastral/manual/manindex.html, and "A History of the Rectangular Survey System," and "Initial Points of the Rectangular System" by C. A. White are probably the most definitive descriptions of this process --http://www.plsc.net/services/ .

 

The "Blue Book" is actually a publication of the Federal Geographic Data Committee (FGDC) titled "Input Formats and Specifications for Inclusion in the National Geodetic Survey Data Base" (http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/FGCS/BlueBook/) and details a set of specifications developed by NGS that will allow anyone to submit new, high quality geodetic control data into NSRS.

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A Surveyors Chain,the measuring instument itself is 100 links,each link 7.92 in..The name comes from the first surveyors chain, it was called a Gunter's chain and 66' (feet) long,a steel band or a tape has now replaced the chain.Most County Roads and some Village Streets are 66 feet wide,because surveyors found it easiest to simply measure them with 1 length of chain.The Engineer's chain was 100 link's each 1' long,at every 10 links brass tags were fastened indicating the number of 10 segments between the tag and the end of the chain. In Surveying, the distance between 2 points is understood to mean HORIZONTAL distance,regardless of the relative elavation of the points.Though slope distances are measured,they are reduced to their equivelnt horizontal projection for use.In GEODETIC Surveying, horizontal distance is reduced to the equivelant at sea level.In plane surveying, horizontal distances are reduced to sea level only when it is desired to convert them intoequivalent distances at another elevation,such as that of the State Plane-Coordinate system or the average elavation of a survey for which the variation in elevation over the area is large.Various methods of determining distance are useful,depending upon the degree of precision required,the cost,and other conditions.On rough reconnaissance,for example,a precision of 1/100 or less may be sufficient for the purpose of the survey;on the other hand,certian BASE LINES established by the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey have been measured with a probable error of about 1/2,000,000.

GCBD Geographic Coordinate Data Base: http://www.geocommunicator.gov/lsi/

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer # 1 on July 17, 2003 at 07:40 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer # 1 on July 17, 2003 at 07:46 AM.]

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Old Mark being brought up to new Standards,after being lost 70 years Well out today and learning more,a never ending quest for the Truth It is out there...... http://www.Geocaching.com/mark/details.asp?PID=GG0052 Real Time Kinetic Survey crew. http://www.rochester-assoc.com/rtk_gps_survey.htm While I was doing some other research I came across this. http://www.carleton.ca/~cwilson/honours/thesis.html

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer # 1 on July 18, 2003 at 08:07 PM.]

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Have you logged it at the NGS? DebBrown@noaa.gov is who all my correspondence has been through. If you have not logged it go here. http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/datasheet.prl and go to submit recovery form our Authority is GEOCAC

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

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Finally found one of the Maps in the Old Book http://www.blm.gov/cadastral/meridians/meridians.htm Check out the History Section Aha here's the most of the book http://www.surveyhistory.org look under Metes & Bounds vs Public Land

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on July 22, 2003 at 09:01 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on July 22, 2003 at 09:03 AM.]

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I know icon_rolleyes.gif one of these just have to ask questions but what is all the point in this and just where is it supposed to be going icon_confused.gif

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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Kerry if you had even one find, one hide, one benchmark find or even a travel bug I would “splane” it to you but all you have is forums post to me that means you get the same back a big 0.……………JOE

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This goes back to our original discussions that have been lost or deleted. I asked certian questions to see if any one else would come up with the same conclusions and have given many more clues. I guess it has to do with Attention Span.If you take the data and directions from the PLSS and look at them now,IE. make a true line of Longitude North from the Initial Point of the 5th Principal Meridian, The Louisiana Purchase,and use a 1st order survey,you will find an anomoly at 36-30-00.TWP 22N-R1.I am trying to get the data that I was refering to in the threads and now have found and posted the links to.If you notice most of these sites were created after about 1999.I have had the Book of the Analysis of the Public Lands Survey's for about 11 years and have just been able to find the bits and pieces and put them together.Everyone is saying that (BY LAW)these things should be done this way but if you go into a detaled analysis of the System you will see that it has some major problems in certian areas of the country.There has been no way for many to actually check these things out until the advent of the GPSr,and now some do not want to accept the accuracy of the (GPSr)system that brings out these flaws in the (PLSS)system.I guess that is why they are rewriting it now....

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

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So what, it's like saying that when Harrison invented the first "accurate" time piece that he was wrong as what was considered brillant in those years (early to mid 1700's) and realised as one of the most important "watches" ever made is not all that accurate in todays world.

Of the 5 Harrison made he spent about 19 years solely dedicated to just one of them, for there was so much importance back then placed on conquering the longitude problem.

 

With an accuracy of several minutes during a sea voyage they were considered revolutionary at the time.

 

What's all this got to do with where ever this is going? well trailblazer you know times (literally) have changed, what was considered brillant in 1762 (and it was) can't hold a flame to the few nano seconds required today and as things get better then what else do you really expect, things have changed, things are going to change, methods have changed lets face it whole countries are constantly every single day and yet you have this thing about why have things changed.

 

TB, you have some way to go in understanding that preciseness and accuracy of the GPS system has no direct realtionship to land ownership, occupation in any country. Flaws don't exist, just the thinking comes from a different point in time just like Harrison's clocks.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

 

[This message was edited by Kerry on July 22, 2003 at 06:04 PM.]

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Yes... things may change, but as things change, they also stay the same. Although I understand that things do change over time, I support GeoTrailblazer in his quest to understand something. There's a lot of things that I don't understand and would love to know more about them. I have learned quite a bit from the links that GeoTrailblazer has posted and encourage him to post more. Granted, I don't understand all of it... but as I read and absorb it I begin to understand the info a bit more. We never stop learning, unless we choose to do so and I don't choose to stop learning. Cheers!

 

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

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quote:
Originally posted by JoGPS:

Kerry if you had even one find, one hide, one benchmark find or even a travel bug I would “splane” it to you but all you have is forums post to me that means you get the same back a big 0.……………JOE


 

Well Joe several self called geocaching experts like you have tried this one but you know something, what you don't know won't hurt you and I have no interest in what you think, because of bed bug finds or whatever.

 

You can go right ahead if you think you can "spane" it, you got something constructive to say then lets hear it. I'll make my judgement on what you say nothing else.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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The 'Kerry' account appears to be a sock-puppet account. While I understand the reasons that many people would isolate themselves with such accounts when geocaching, I have found that those of us who are predominantly interested in hunting benchmarks haven't felt the need in using such accounts. Even though some of us 'butt heads' at times whe are all genuinely interested in finding and perserving these marks placed by those that have gone before us and even though we may not always agree on everything, we all agree that benchmarks rock!

 

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

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Well Jeff you obviously wouldn't know a sock puppet was if you fell over one.

 

No, it might surprise that I do use my real name, how about that and you see I have no other reason not to and have used this name for obviously a lot longer around this site and past geocaching sites than you would remember. Some others do but you don't and the reason? I'll let you work on that one.

 

You know Jeff after doing what you find "fashionable" and yes it's important for the past 30 odd plus years I probably place a much higher importance on BM's and all associated things than you'll ever likely to understand.

 

You know your probably a fine Sherrif but don't give it away and become a detective as you'd make a lousy detective especially letting your fiction get in the way of the facts.

 

Now you want to talk facts or continue with your sh..

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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Kerry go over and play in the other forums with the other sock puppets where you are welcomed. We don’t need your type here. You said just facts and the fact is your are a sock puppet and you are the one with the bull shxx

 

Goooooooooo Away …………… JOE

 

Do you think anyone cares what you say ???

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Like I've said Jo, get stuffed, You wouldn't know a sock if you fell over one either.

 

Generally the last line of defence for some who are really out of their depth is your type of faceless antics.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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quote:
You know your probably a fine Sherrif

 

First of all Kerry, who claims to know all, I am a deputy not a sheriff. Oh... and please spell it correctly, it's sheriff, not sherrif

 

quote:
don't give it away and become a detective as you'd make a lousy detective especially letting your fiction get in the way of the facts.

 

Yeah... right... icon_rolleyes.gif

 

I can't believe I am lowering myself to even respond to such garbage...

 

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....

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Gee Wizzzzzzzzz and I thought this web site and forum was for people that hunted, geocaches, benchmarks, and played with a few travel bugs. When did it become anything else . If you are looking for creditably in the forums then participate in the sport.

 

JOE

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Well fella's that simply tuff. You don't like it that's also simply tuff, you want to be smart arses then feel free.

 

Perhaps you pair want to go back to the start of this thread and read it again.

 

At least here some of the sh.. some of you go on with can be sorted out.

 

Credibility, oh Jo you've got to be a complete joke.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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Yes I know things have changed,That is what I am trying to point out.But Land Laws did not change.Geodetic Measure did. The Marks of these surveys were set,not all of them,but most,you can't come along now and say that we have a better system of measurement and change things around,that is what has happened in the past and has caused great confusion in the process.If you look at the things that I point out you will see too. But I HAVE asked you (Kerry) specific questions that you have never answered yet.It seems that you are quick to judge and slow to study at the things that I post.Yes some things have no significance to others but..........all things are relevant.I feel it pertinent to point these things out.Proper grammer and tactful adherence to my point is the goal.You want to take these discussions off point, then want to blame me for posts that make no sense to you.Why? This line North from the 5th P.M. has an observation of the steady move of Polaris, West,Annual Westward slippage,and also the magnetic field has moved approximatly 7.5 degrees West in 150 years of observations,what is now,and you will correct me, deflec99,this being the delection angle of the vertical adjustment of the NAVD National Vertical Datum.That is the Point of *IDEA* for other observations of the Initial Points, as they were adopted,and their vertical angle or deflections checked and talked about in a forum such as these.If you have possitive input to places,science and technologies,we are all ears...we all want to learn or we would not be here...And yes I AM "ABSTRACT" and crazy like a fox.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

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Some of the land laws have no direct relationship to all this stuff about what has and hasn't changed as if that was the case there would be some major upheavels.

 

And by the way I've never said anything of the sort that now we have a better system of measurement that this should affect land boundaries, that's garbage.

 

You know the poor old earth is getting tired, slowed down 13 seconds in 20 odd years, time is changing not a great lot one can do about it either, same as this country keeps moving 60-70mm every year, nothing we can do about that either except realize it's a fact and be able to work around it.

 

What you need to realize is that there's a lot more reasoning behind what you see as some type of conspiracy.

 

quote:
? This line North from the 5th P.M. has an observation of the steady move of Polaris, West,Annual Westward slippage,and also the magnetic field has moved approximatly 7.5 degrees West in 150 years of observations,what is now,and you will correct me, deflec99,this being the delection angle of the vertical adjustment of the NAVD National Vertical Datum.
why would anybody even bother touching that one icon_rolleyes.gif but put simply you have absolute no idea what defelction of the vertical is and for someone to suggest that it has moved 7.5 deg west in 150 years is obviously well out of their depth. Listen here TB vertical deflections of the vertical are measured in arc-seconds and in no way shape or form even get past the 1 minute mark, 7.5 degrees BS.

 

As for your inferral about taking discussions off point, you should adopt the principle of getting to the point, get my point icon_wink.gif

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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Point:Look at the 5th P.M. U.S.G.S Topo Maps,run a True Line of Longitude North,you will see at say 36-30-00 TWP 22 N. That there is a difference from what is observed,and that from the data from the Triangulation System in the 60's.If there is this difference in 40 years what is the diffrence from the original surveys of 1815?As for magnetic Declination,the first surveys were run with a compass and a chain,I have the original Field notes,and plats from the BLM,GLO Records,for the several townships around me.The original declination was 7.5 to 8 degrees,a current reading in the area is <1 degree to Polaris from the Magnetic Meridian,this would mean that in approx. 150 years it has moved 7.????? degrees magnetic.The Proper Motion of the Stars,(annual westward slippage) is another story too. http://astro.estec.esa.nl/Hipparcos/properm.html

I guess that is why the time lapse photography of the Pyramids back in time,shows that the Star Chamber viewed the *Star*,and that is why for many years it baffled scientists,no one had the technology to check it out.Same with what I am showing here,No one to my knowledge has done this yet,just like some other things that a person may ?,why knock him down for expressions of what is known,and you could add to this in a more constructive manner,but like the Sarge maybe you are just that type of personality,that it takes to get these things out.I have never said that I was Anybody or had any authority...just??? that no one wants to answer. I already know the answer to it.Its like saying to you,I am gonna take your lands because of this new measurement system,or corrections on the range line,you no longer own what you think you do.Here is some more on the Mag.vsTrue http://www.geog.port.ac.uk/webmap/hantsmap/hantsmap/cmprose.htm http://www.astro-fengshui.com/fengshui/truenorth.html http://crustal.usgs.gov/nomad/the_project.html Here's one that shows Portland Oregon in 100 year it moved 5 degrees it looks like. http://www.proaxis.com/~johnbell/iitt/questionftf49.htm

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on July 23, 2003 at 10:16 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on July 23, 2003 at 10:17 PM.]

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quote:
I already know the answer to it

 

is that so? then apart from dropping these big sounding terms at least go away and check what deflections of the vertical are.

 

You see TB you have a very short memory but mine tells me that once not all that long ago I spent a lot of time (obviously wasted time) trying to talk to you about much of this but all you dis was keep going around and around and around in circles, with no clear direction or intent. This is one such case and if you want some more of this rubbish then one only has to look

 

http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=4316009691&r=69160454#69160454

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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Point:again you avoid the question. You ask me to stay on point.I have tried to make sense of your technobabble as well and it does not make sense either.Point: what authority do you have ? You never adressed this issue you just put me down for trying to express an idea,or point out things as you say a (conspiracy), You have mentioned it so much, are you a part of it or what.You know the old saying you see yourself in others and try and correct it in them, instead of yourself.And in my opinion you do a good job of trying to keep things off track instead of continuing the discussion.And why not let people have a glimpse of who you are? That is,or should be one of the protocol of an open Forum.But if you really want to hide go ahead,It does not bother me but it rises questions in my mind as to your intent.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on July 24, 2003 at 06:54 AM.]

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Hey, I know it's off-topic and all, but, GEO*Trailblazer, you see that key to the right of your keyboard, next to the apostrophe? The one that says "Enter"?

 

Maybe you should try using it now and then, see how you like it.

 

pirate.cgi.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

Hey, I know it's off-topic and all, but, GEO*Trailblazer, you see that key to the right of your keyboard, next to the apostrophe? The one that says "Enter"?

Is this what you meant .Quote the point that I am trying to make or are you refering to sumpin else?

Maybe you should try using it now and then, see how you like it.

 

http://parkrrrr.com/pirate.cgi.gif


 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

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quote:
Originally posted by GEO*Trailblazer 1:

I am computer illeterate warm fuzzies-fuzzy what do you mean.You got me on this one.


I mean, one of the things that makes what you're saying hard to understand is the fact that you run it all together. You should break your thoughts up into paragraphs so they're easier to follow.

 

Also, it helps if you put the spaces after the periods instead of before them.

 

It might not seem like much, but it makes a vast difference in the readability of your writing. And when you're already writing about pretty esoteric stuff, you should do everything you can to make it easier to read.

 

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There probably isn't an anomoly at latitiude 36-30-00 along the 5th. P.M. on the ground.

 

Here is the topozone link.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=15&n=4041028&e=677560&s=25&u=2

 

What appears to be a dogleg on the meridian is an edge-matching problem between the two different USGS quadrangles used to generate the screen image.

 

USGS did an excellent job in making their topographic maps, this little mistake slipped through the cracks somehow.

 

None of the Principal Meridians are true meridians of constant longitude. At this location the meridian is about two miles east of the longitude of the initial point

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Yes you are right 1.98 mi.

 

This brings up the point about the Directions from the PLSS and also the 1973 Manual.

 

From the Initial Point which is the Louisiana Purchase Monument, EH2910 a True line of Longitude,Meridian or Principal Axis passing through the point,The North-South Axis is a True Meridian called the Principal(5th),and the East-West axis a Base-Line.The Principal Meridian is given a name to which all subdivisions are refered.

 

The extent of the Surveys which are refered to a given Initial Point may be found by consulting a map,published by the Bureau of Land Management,Entitled"UNITED STATES,SHOWING PRINCIPAL MERIDIANS,BASE LINES AND AREAS GOVERNED THEREBY.

 

Secondary axis is established at intervals(Interger) of 24 miles east or west of the Principal Meridian and at intervals(Interger) of 24 miles north and south of the base line.thus dividing it into Quadrangles bounded by true meridians 24 miles long and by true parallels,the south boundry of each quadrangle being 24 miles long,and the north boundry being 24 miles long less the convergency of the meridians in that distance(in some early surveys this was 30 or 36 miles).

 

The secondary parallels are called standard parallels or correction lines,and each is continuous throughout its length.

 

The secondary meridians are called guide meridians,and each is broken at the base line and at each standard paralell.These all called standard lines.

The Principal Meridian and the Guide Meridians,being true north and south lines,are laid out as strait lines but converge toward the north,the rate of convergency depending upon the Latitude.

This north line was also limited to less than 21' from cardinal that is less than 1/2 degree,and not to exceed 20 links per mile,1 link 7.92 inches.

 

When successive independent tests of the alignment,as determined by astronomical observation,indicate that the line has departed from the *True Meridian* by more than 03',it is required that the necessary correction be made to reduce the deviation in AZIMUTH.

 

This may be why some do not want to tackle this question,I have done alot of reasearching and measurement in the field and have found some of the original evidences, ie Monuments,Stones, Trees 200 + - years old marked as described marked by ,on the Base line Joseph C. Brown and on the North line Prospect K. Robbins,or other surveyors continuing their original lines.

 

Even have some caches around the histoty of it all.

 

Thanks for your response Wild T2.This is what I was hoping some one other than myself might find and get a reply on.

 

anomoly: 1. departure from the regular arrangement,general rule,or usual method;abnormality. 2. anything anomalous 3. Astronomy a measurement used for any orbiting body,as a planets angular distance around its orbit from its perihelion,taken as if viewed

from the sun.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS*GEOTRYAGAIN **1803-2003 "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" "LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://www.lapurchase.org http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/ http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

 

how is this????????? I tried to edit it,your right WFF I will try and structure my thought process better.The reason for the DUH's...I was poisened with mercury years ago and my thought process's do not function as smoothly and elequently and Grammaticalyyyyy correctttdlyy as guud any more but I am tryin

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on July 24, 2003 at 04:26 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on July 24, 2003 at 04:35 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by GEO*Trailblazer 1:

how is this????????? I tried to edit it,your right WFF I will try and structure my thought process better.The reason for the DUH's...I was poisened with mercury years ago and my thought process's do not function as smoothly and elequently and Grammaticalyyyyy correctttdlyy as guud any more but I am tryin

 


 

Yes it is much easier to read.

 

I live in Virginia so I don't have much interest in meridians or base lines(but I do have a copy of "Measuring America at the top of my stack). I have not tried real hard to understand the issue you are trying to shine light on but....

 

It seems to me that you should think about creating a web site that lays out the issues and evidence that you have so obviously worked hard at gathering. Spreading your thoughts over dozens of threads and dozens of messages is definitely lowering your impact.

 

The act of organizing and composing the information will help focus your mind. You can also iteratively refine the parts of the message that are not quite clear(perhaps based on feedback). A web page is also an excellent way to organize the copious links that you have been providing.

 

You claim not to be too computer savvy but the tools available today for building simple web sites are very easy to use.

 

Meanwhile - keep on benchmarking and posting! icon_biggrin.gif

 

----- Fighting entropy one benchmark at a time. -----

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Man I wish I were younger and in prime shape.

GRACE

http://essp.gsfc.nasa.gov/grace/

I would get so involved with these new Sciences and Technologies that are emerging,maybe I tis all tied together in some form or another.

I guess now with computers you can do alot of the stuff right indoors,But back to the Topic

 

I looked at the "Measuring America" you mentioned,and am working on the Pages.

 

That led me to "The Measure of All Things".

http://www.semcoop.com/detail/l074321675X

 

Trying to explain ones thoughts sometimes is a monumental task in itself.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE" http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION" http://arkansasstateparks.com/lapurchase/

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on July 25, 2003 at 09:35 AM.]

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Originally posted by Wild T2:

There probably isn't an anomoly at latitiude 36-30-00 along the 5th. P.M. on the ground.

 

Here is the topozone link.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=15&n=4041028&e=677560&s=25&u=2

 

What is this 2 mile difference called?

 

I thought that some one might have more thought on it,or response.

 

What happened to the Link???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Initial Points Page

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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1909 Plat and Maps.

This has the Analysis of the United States Surveys spoke about in previous posts,It has finally been added to the Internet.It also has all the Plat Maps.

 

www.loc.gov/

 

Search our Catalogs

Basic Search:

Call Number Browse:

Enter # G1438 .B203 1909 (G&M)

 

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Initial Points Page

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

[This message was edited by GEO*Trailblazer 1 on July 30, 2003 at 10:20 AM.]

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The Initial Point of the PLSS Public Land Survey.

 

http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceId=441&ResourceType=Site

 

NATIONAL ATLAS

 

www.nationalAtlas.gov/plssm.html

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Initial Points Page

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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quote:

 

What appears to be a dogleg on the meridian is an edge-matching problem between the two different USGS quadrangles used to generate the screen image.

 

USGS did an excellent job in making their topographic maps, this little mistake slipped through the cracks somehow.

 


 

The Edges of these Quadrangles would, by rules,be at a distance of 120 mi.,5th guide Meridian and 144 mi.,6th guide Meridian North of the Baseline and Initial Point.

 

The Point we are looking at is about 132 Mi. N.,which should put in about the Center of the Quadrangle.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Initial Points Page

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Whew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I got a lot to learn.just got off the phone with Dr.Roman.Again I am sorry for the misuse of names in a previous post. DaveD.

 

We had a very interesting discussion as always.

He answered my questions and explained again,and beyond to things to look at.

Thankyou again for your time to explain things to me.

 

These are not links that he gave me only the reiteration of the previous talk.

 

1.WGS World Geodetic System.

www.nima.mil/GandG/geolay/TR80003E.HTM

 

2. Lunes and Triangles in Spherical Geometry.

www.math.duke.edu/~prep-4

 

3.The Earth Orientation Parameters.

http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/eathor/EOP.html

 

I guess it is back to the books again Thanks...............Happy Geotrails

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Initial Points Page

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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True Meridian =

12-3. The TRUE MERIDIAN,or ASTRONOMIC MERIDIAN,is determined by astronomical observations.

For any given point on EARTH it's direction is always the same,and hence directions referred to the TRUE MERIDIAN remain unchanged regardless of time.The LINES of MOST EXTENSIVE surveys and usually the lines marking the boundries of LANDED PROPERTY are refered to the TRUE MERIDIAN.

 

12-4. Magnetic Meridian.

The direction of the magnetic meridian is that taken by a freely suspended magnetic needle.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Initial Points Page

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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quote:
Originally posted by Wild T2:

There probably isn't an anomoly at latitiude 36-30-00 along the 5th. P.M. on the ground.

 

Here is the topozone link.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=15&n=4041028&e=677560&s=25&u=2

 

What appears to be a dogleg on the meridian is an edge-matching problem between the two different USGS quadrangles used to generate the screen image.

 

USGS did an excellent job in making their topographic maps, this little mistake slipped through the cracks somehow.

 

None of the Principal Meridians are true meridians of constant longitude. At this location the meridian is about two miles east of the longitude of the initial point


 

Astronamical True Meridians are run N and S.

The Maps or Meridians should not run 2 mi. off,no matter how much dogleg.

 

A True Meridian or Paralell layed out on the ground is a curved line.

 

If layed off this way the convergency of the Meridian at that distance is not that much,and should curve to the West not DEFLECT to the East,This is called Declination,the difference between the TRUE MERIDIAN AND MAGNETIC MERIDIAN.

 

My reasoning,is that if Prospect K. Robbins the Surveyor in charge of the North and South line surveyed to the Missouri River,with a compass,at (Declination A),from the Initial Point,what is the current (Declination B)now?,The True Meridian at time of survey 1815,(Ast.1),The North Star is moving westward slowly,as well as the declination or Magnetic Meridian,as of this date the furthest you can go back is 1900,which would be 6-7 degrees from (Ast.1).

 

I will try and keep the subject to,

 

Declination A

Declination B

Ast.1 True Meridian or Astronomical Observation.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Initial Points Page

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Where are all those Scientific minds are they no longer able to answer?????? icon_eek.gif

 

Is this topic more than you bargained for as to what the question was? icon_confused.gif

 

Where are all those conspirators?????? icon_wink.gif

 

I am beating the bushes......................................... icon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gif

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN*

 

**1803-2003** "LOUSIANA PURCHASE"

http://www.lapurchase.org

 

"LEWIS AND CLARK EXPADITION"

http://lewisclark.geog.missouri.edu/

Initial Points Page

http://www.True-Meridiansubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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At the risk of extending the life of this thread beyond its natural life, I offer this:

 

I am interested in a dialogue with you about the apparent jog in the 5th Principle Meridian.

 

With work and family obligations, I have a limited amount of time to devote to perusing this message board. I generally jump in and out at work during breaks.

 

Therefore, I have not kept up with the full discussion. Could you perhaps pose your question(s) again, keeping them brief?

 

I have some thoughts and ideas on the possible reason for the apparent jog, but I want to make sure I understand your questions and to find out what you already know about the history of this line.

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