Why isn't marker destruction logged?

[eahousley]

I have read several threads here that have expressed how markers are not to be disturbed, collected, sold on EBay, whatever. On my recent BM expeditions, I have encountered several sites where the marker was obviously destroyed or covered up by construction or development; situations where there was probably a great deal of surveying activity.

 

If these things are so sacred, why aren't their destruction documented in the markers' official history?

 

-- Its from aliens. I seen um. --

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

So many theories to the reasons as there are to the seasons? My view is until recently no one really cared,its like all the other Historic Moments that have long past with no marking of their season and have faded away into the past.This thing we do it is a blast to record and mark our journey past. Happy Geotrails and may you find the marks that you seek.

 

WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS *GEOTRYAGAIN* http://www.msnusers.com/MissouriTrails

[survey tech]

They are not so sacred that they can be allowed to prevent progress. The whole reason they were set was to facilitate progress. In fact, there have been cases of deliberate destruction, albeit futile, perpetrated by environmental extremists, seeking to prevent, hamper or delay development in specific areas. Only those markers that were placed in the most wisely chosen spots were able to survive for a very long time. The concensus among professionals today is that there is little or no need to report destruction, or finding for that matter, to NGS, since a marker in any given locality is of no use to those in other parts of the country. The markers are jealously guarded and thoroughly documented by the states, counties and cities which they serve. Remember, the markers do not belong to NGS. They belong to the citizens of the communities in which they exist, and those people, especially the surveyors and engineers, who need them the most, are expected to preserve and maintain them or suffer the consequences of laying them to waste. If you have some reason to believe that markers are being destroyed or damaged through negligence in your area, this may be a matter that should be brought to the attention of your city council or other local authorities.

[eahousley]

quote:

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Originally posted by survey tech:

If you have some reason to believe that markers are being destroyed or damaged through negligence in your area, this may be a matter that should be brought to the attention of your city council or other local authorities.

---

 

I'm not concerned about them being destroyed or neglected. I just find it curious that the markers in my area are so rigorously documented except when they are destroyed. I would have expected to find some sort of record of their demise.

 

-- I'm agin it. Could lead to dancing. --

[+beejay&esskay]

quote:

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Originally posted by survey tech:

The concensus among professionals today is that there is little or no need to report destruction, or finding for that matter, to NGS, since a marker in any given locality is of no use to those in other parts of the country.

---

 

So reporting to NGS as GEOCAC is just for our amusement?

[iryshe]

I think that by this point, local surveyors have their own database of markers that they use. If that is the case then the updating of the NGS database is considered irrelevant, except for those getting into the surveying business.

 

As an outsider's perspective looking in, surveyors probably consider their updated database a competitive edge.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location™

[Z15]

quote:

---

Originally posted by eahousley:

I have read several threads here that have expressed how markers are not to be disturbed, collected, sold on EBay, whatever. On my recent BM expeditions, I have encountered several sites where the marker was obviously destroyed or covered up by construction or development; situations where there was probably a great deal of surveying activity.

 

If these things are so sacred, why aren't their destruction documented in the markers' official history?

 

-- Its from aliens. I seen um. --

---

 

Well, unfortunately many don't notify NGS of the destruction. A great deal of people use these marks but won't take the time to report on the condition.

 

For NGS to assume the mark is destroyed, they require proof. When is has been confirmed, they remove it from the database but they maintain the record in the event its ever needed. e.g. The report of its demise is not correct.

 

About 3 yrs back I found a USGS Bench Mark that had been reported by one of thier own partys as lost. Turned out it was shown on our 1941 highway plans with a station and offset. After recovering some of the original survey points for the highway (US41) we noticed they had only filled (grade lift) and paved the route in 1950 and when we found the location, dug down some 30 inches we found the concrete post in its original position. We confirmed that the elevation was not disturbed.

 

[This message was edited by elcamino on February 18, 2003 at 01:46 PM.]

[+Black Dog Trackers]

I think the majority (maybe 80%) of all missing benchmarks are gone due to re-construction and re-landscaping. Another 10% being due to surveyors removing (destroying) a doomed station to set another in its place.

 

I used to blame the re-construction and re-landscaping people, but now I think the blame lies with the policy of the NGS. However, I don't think their policy is wrong.

 

If you submit a mark recovery form to the NGS, you can't actually submit a "destroyed" condition; only the NGS can do that. If you want to convey to them that the marker is destroyed, you either write them a note with picture or rubbing of the disk (as you found it destroyed), or you choose "not found" and then give a reason why you think it's destroyed.

 

I imagine that re-construction and re-landcaping people don't usually get around to taking a careful picture of themselves in the moment of destroying a station, like with a bulldozer or wrecking ball. Such photography probably isn't always even safe. But that's what the NGS requires - documented proof. For whatever logistical reason, it just doesn't happen. So at this point, I figure the NGS is right in requiring proof of destruction and I figure that re-landscaping and re-construction operations just can't reasonably be expected to document that proof. So the database is destined to gradually grows weeds, but local surveyors probably know which ones not to bother looking for.

 

Am I off track here?

[+Webfoot]

quote:

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Originally posted by Black Dog Trackers:

If you submit a mark recovery form to the NGS, you can't actually submit a "destroyed" condition; only the NGS can do that. If you want to convey to them that the marker is destroyed, you either write them a note with picture or rubbing of the disk (as you found it destroyed), or you choose "not found" and then give a reason why you think it's destroyed.

---

 

We couldn't log this one with the NGS because we couldn't get inside the fence on this one to get a rubbing off the disk, or at least get a close up picture of the disk. Thing that was perplexing about that one was why it appeared to be pulled from the wall in the first place. Granted the road had been widened over the flood control spot, but why would they have to pull the disk from the wall of the floo control channel, just because they had widened the street? It wasn't like the benchmark was in the way where it was, since it was in the wall.

 

Maybe someone else can look at my pictures and make more sense of it.

 

I'd love to go back there and climb the fence, but as you can see, there's no landing room on the other side of the fence, unless you want to count the twenty foot drop into the flood control channel and then how do you get back up to that area where the disk is supposed to be?

 

Webfoot

 

Tromping through the underbrush looking for Ammo cans, Tupperware containers, & little round disks.

[survey tech]

BD

You have it right, except that I would say the NGS database has been growing cobwebs for at least 30 years. As several people here have noticed, the volume of recovery notes peaked between 1920-1960 and faded out during the 1960s. I think there have been less recovery notes submitted in the last 30 years than in any 10 year period prior to that time. As you supposed, this is not really a problem since local surveyors generally know where the markers in their area are. Construction workers not only fail to document the points they destroy, they typically try to hide what happened, if they even notice it. In most cases though, they are unaware that they even destroyed anything. Its really up to surveyors to keep track of the points that can be saved and protect them when possible, which they do.

[Z15]

As to why the recovery notes do not seem to be a frequent in later years as before.

 

In the last 20 yrs, the number of people working in the field for NGS, USGS and other federal and state agency's has dwindled to very few. Budget cuts etc. NGS has less than 100 field employees doing survey work from what I was told by our former state advisor. Last I heard they only had 2 level party's and relied on college interns to do the most of the field work. When we did the HARN for Michigan, about 95% of the NGS staff were these people. NGS only had about 6-8 4x4 suburbans and equipment, the rest was borrowed from MDOT and local surveyors.

 

Also we have been doing recoverys for 20 yrs but NGS would only accept them in thier format which often required a lot of extra paperwork on our part. We were often told to not report any mark that was found and in good condition becuase they (NGS) did not want it nor did they have the people and time to process it. Within the last 10 yrs or some, they computerized all this data and that made it more manageable.

 

Seems people today are so used to computers and databases etc, they think its been that was forever .