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Knight2000

N00b question about BM!

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I'm new to benchmark hunting. I've found a few in the last week. I tried to look for this one yesterday.

 

The pole in the pictures is the pole number listed. At first I thought I had found it under a 9" cover marked AKRON SURVEY maybe 30' SE of that pole.

 

55 FEET SOUTHWEST OF THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF A RESIDENCE AT 675 DAN STREET, 13 1/2 FEET NORTHEAST OF POWER LINE POLE NO. 14196 WITH STREET LIGHT, 6.0 FEET WEST OF THE CENTER LINE OF DAN STREET

 

sur2pole.jpg

 

akrben.jpg

 

Then it hit me that this is not what I am looking for. Especially since I saw another one about 20' away to the SW, the cover is marked AKRON SURVEY, it's in the wrong location, etc.

 

Here is a picture standing behind the proper # pole looking NE. The house in the background is the house referred to on Victoria Ave.

 

poler.jpg

 

My conclusion is that is is gone or under the road. I'm thinking it would be near the circle. Does that sound right? I couldn't imagine it any other way. I should probably just log it with a note showing the last picture here, right?

 

Thanks for any input! :D

Edited by Knight2000

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RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1964 AT AKRON. AT AKRON, ABOUT 0.4 MILE SOUTH ALONG DAN STREET FROM ITS INTERSECTION WITH GLENWOOD AVENUE, NEAR THE JUNCTION OF VICTORIA AVENUE AND DAN STREET, 263 FEET NORTHEAST OF THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE JUVENILE COURT BUILDING, 26 FEET NORTH OF THE CENTER LINE OF VICTORIA AVENUE, 55 FEET SOUTHWEST OF THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF A RESIDENCE AT 675 DAN STREET, 13 1/2 FEET NORTHEAST OF POWER LINE POLE NO. 14196 WITH STREET LIGHT, 6.0 FEET WEST OF THE CENTER LINE OF DAN STREET, SET IN THE TOP OF A CONCRETE POST 4 INCHES UNDER DAN STREET ACCESS TO WHICH IS HAD THROUGH A 9 INCH CAST IRON COVER MARKED AKRON SURVEY 1963.

 

Knight2000,

 

Does the call from the juvenile court building fit? Is 1963 stamped on the cover?

 

Any and all bearings and distances are frequently transposed in the DATASHEET. MEL

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No conclusion, but some things to ponder:

 

It does seem strange there is another one (two?) so close. Did you mean you found two monument wells near that intersection and neither fits the distance?

 

Is there any stamping under the dirt on that disk? Stamping is always one of the most definitive ways to tell if you have the right disk. I can't tell for sure in the photo, but I hope you did find it in a concrete post and not on top of a rod. The style of disk reminds me a lot of typical rod-mounted disks. The 4 inch depth could easily have changed with street resurfacing, so don't put much faith in that number.

 

Note that Dan street does not go north and south, but is somewhat NNW. That would move your circle toward the disk.

 

Have you measured 13 1/2 feet NE'ly of the center of the power pole to see how far that misses the monument well you found?

 

I can't see Victoria Ave in the photos. How well does 26 ft north of its centerline check out for the one you found and for your circle?

 

Power poles get replaced, and sometimes moved a few feet. I don't know if the power company re-uses the the number for the nearest replacement or not. While that pole is old, it might be only 35 years old instead of over 46 years. Victoria Ave hasn't moved except for a possible widening which should be obvious.

 

Have you taken a long average waypoint (e.g. 10 minutes) nearby (maybe not in the street) to see how it compares in position? Real-time readings tend to wander more than a good average.

 

Also, can you measure the distance from the corner of the house without upsetting anyone?

 

I will usually accept one discrepancy in a description if several other things check out well. In this case, if other measurements check I might believe the disk is 6 ft east of the centerline instead of west.

Edited by Bill93

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The description reads that the mark is in the intersection of Dan & Victoria. You can also measure "263 FEET NORTHEAST FROM THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF THE JUVENILE COURT BUILDING".

 

The disk will be stamped "DAN A". If not, then you have not found the correct disk.

 

Time for another visit to see how things measure out.

 

Have fun.

 

John

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Thanks for the great responses! :D I did clean off the mark. As hard I tried I could not see what was stamped under there. It was dirty and most of the other stuff came off. Could it be corrosion? I tried to dig at it a little with my screwdriver but it did not help. It just was marring the metal and I didn't want to do that.

 

It is in front of the juvenile center.

 

Here is the cover. I did not have my sheet with me. I had a few pieces of info that I wrote out by hand.

 

sam0301.jpg

 

I let my Oregon sit long enough to get a 100% with it's waypoint averaging feature. N 41° 05.556 W 081° 29.784. (WSG84)

 

It was cold and there was more traffic than I would have liked. I had to constantly watch for cars. I don't have a vest or anything so and this was my first time. I would have done the other cover but it was on Dan and there was a car going by about once every 20 seconds. I would have been too worried having to look for cars while having to clean and take a photo.

 

From GE... Yellow was the spot where I found the pictured benchmark. Red was the possible location of the other 9" cover. It was that direction and close to the center of the road. Blue dot is about the area of the pole. I used my compass to get the picture facing NE.

 

ge1s.jpg

Edited by Knight2000

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I did not have a tape. (I'm new!) Here is a picture of the cover with a higher resolution.

 

I'm sure that building has been renovated. It looks new.

 

It's not illegal pulling these covers is it?

Edited by Knight2000

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The description put the benchmark about where the white cross-hair square is in your picture. That is west of the center line of Dan, north of Victoria, NE of the pole and NE of the Juvenile Court, & SW of the house at 672 DAN St (the house on the north side of Victoria).

 

Is there a well in that area?

 

No tape, with practice pacing will work very well when benchmarking.

 

John

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The aerial view helped a lot. I'm convinced that the ones you found are not MB1246 DAN A, which may be paved over or graded out.

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Is there a well in that area?

 

No tape, with practice pacing will work very well when benchmarking.

By well I assume you meant pipe with cover? No. I did not see one anywhere. I walked all around and that is how I stumbled upon the other one.

 

Thanks for reminding me about the pacing. With the short distances like 12' and 6' I am ok with. I have a construction background so I'm familiar. (At least with short distances.)

 

Would the benchmark I am seeking say "CITY OF AKRON"? I tried to use the link about kinds of benchmarks in the FAQ thread but a number of the links are dead.

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Some days we are just slow in picking up on the MINOR details....

 

"N 41° 05.560 W 081° 29.793 (NAD 83)

 

Altitude: 1029.26

 

Coordinates may not be exact. Altitude is ADJUSTED and location is ADJUSTED."

 

Note the red highlight! That explains why the cross-hair matches the description so well!

 

Just follow your GPSr to the given coordinates and look for the well cover. Your GPSr should put you less than 10 feet from that well cover!

 

A well is where the benchmark is inside a pipe that has a lid (like the one in your picture). You remove the cover and look into the "Well" to see the benchmark. Some of the well covers are tarred into place, so they may not be able to be removed without heating.

 

If there is not one visible at the coordinates, it may be covered over with pavement or it may be gone.

 

John

Edited by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

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Would the benchmark I am seeking say "CITY OF AKRON"? I tried to use the link about kinds of benchmarks in the FAQ thread but a number of the links are dead.

 

The disk should be similar to the one pictured in your first post with the exception that it will have "DAN A" stamped on the disk.

 

The "original datasheet" Link on the benchmark page will take you to the original datasheet where you will need to scroll down to find ....

 

MB1246_MARKER: DD = SURVEY DISK

MB1246_SETTING: 7 = SET IN TOP OF CONCRETE MONUMENT

MB1246_STAMPING: DAN A

 

Have fun with this one.

 

John

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The NGS data sheets are helpful, but it is better to get the current one instead of the nearly 10 year old one captured on this web site.

 

You can go to http://www.ngs.noaa.gov and select Survey Mark Datasheets from the menu, or you can put your PID of the day in this link:

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=MB1246

 

Someone had a Java applet that you could put on your desktop and when you clicked it, it gave you a blank for the PID. Then it sent the PidBox link to fetch the data sheet. It worked on the old computer but for some reason won't work on this one. Does anyone know if there is an update?

Edited by Bill93

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Knight 2000,

 

I have found quite a few benchmarks in Akron and many of them are in the street. The picture of the cover you have is a typical cover from 1963, even though the cover is not dated. Sometimes Akron marks are under standard sized manhole covers as well. Many of the marks say "U.S. Coast & Geodetic Survey and The City Of Akron" on them.

 

shorbird

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I was thinking that it said "adjusted" but I'm still new so I thought I would ask.

 

Shorbird, I've seen your [many] logs! :P I try to pick one a pro hasn't gone too and logged already. :P Can you get in trouble for popping those covers? My younger brother has some form of survey training. He's in the field, somewhere. I'm looking forward to picking his brain a bit. I told him we can get together to go caching or maybe benchmarking. He probably wouldn't want to do the latter! Too much like work! :blink:

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I'm still trying to get this all straight. I'll try to figure out the NOAA site. Can these load like geocaches in my Oregon? (Showing the data info.)

 

What about marks like these: Link. Link.

 

Just look at them?

 

It was pretty cool when I found this scaled BM last weekend. I thought it was garbage and that I wouldn't find anything. Then I started poking around and there it was hiding. It's amazing how easily I am entertained. I'd consider it my first real find. The others didn't require much looking. :blink:

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Intersection stations are things sighted through the instruments but the instrument could not be set up over them. Typically towers, water tanks, and church spires. For these you should determine

a) Your GPS points to them in two different directions from positions as close as practical.

B) The structure matches all the description given (if it is a tank on 4 legs, don't accept a Watersphere .

c) The structure appears to be of an appropriate age. A church spire described in 1935 isn't the same one you find above a cornerstone set in 1952.

 

NGS no longer wants found reports for intersection stations, but they are sometimes fun to document on this site.

 

From a surveyor's point of view, KY1711 is destroyed not just poor. It no longer even remotely marks the proper elevation. On this site, I suppose you did find it so Poor is an acceptable report. Not so to NGS. If you submit these pictures to Deb Brown she will mark it Destroyed.

 

Edit: *$%@! smileys.

Edited by Bill93

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From a surveyor's point of view, KY1711 is destroyed not just poor. It no longer even remotely marks the proper elevation. On this site, I suppose you did find it so Poor is an acceptable report. Not so to NGS. If you submit these pictures to Deb Brown she will mark it Destroyed.

 

 

Yes it is destroyed.

 

If you do report it with photos to Deb I have read of cases where she has given permission for it to be kept. Of course I would keep the permission for record that you didn't steal the thing if she does think it appropriate for you to keep.

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I don't believe NGS ever gives anyone permission to keep a disk, but there have been several cases where they suggested that the disk be removed from the site after it was categorized as "destroyed" to avoid confusion. What to do with the removed disk was unspecified ;-)

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The disk should be similar to the one pictured in your first post with the exception that it will have "DAN A" stamped on the disk.

 

 

I would have assumed that the disk would not look like the one in the first post.

 

If you look for nearby benchmarks that have similar names there are several that were monumented in the same year by the same organization. A couple of these (MB1429 and MB1197 ) have been found and photographed by shorbird. I would expect MB2712 to look like these.

 

NJE

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If you look for nearby benchmarks that have similar names there are several that were monumented in the same year by the same organization. A couple of these (MB1429 and MB1197 ) have been found and photographed by shorbird. I would expect MB2712 to look like these.

 

NJE

That makes a lot of sense. I should have thought of that.

 

I went out and found 3 more this evening. I needed a shovel for two of them. I went out and purchased a 330' tape, reflective vest, and a stiff bristled brush after I was done. This will help a lot!

 

I have a nice metal detector that my wife got off freecycle a year or two ago. It was like $1600 new. I tried to use it once but I guess I need to read up on how to use it. We found an old bolt! Yay! LoL. I haven't taken it out for benchmarks though.

 

A couple more questions...

 

---From what I can gather using WGS84 with my Oregon is acceptable considering the unit's accuracy (or inaccuracy).

 

---I've noticed that on a couple that I have found they are a certain direction/distance from a MILEPOLE XXX-XX. Those have matched up with utility poles. (These were all along RR tracks.) I saw no designation on the poles. I assume that the MILEPOLE in this example 147-15 is .15 mile past mile marker 147? Are utility poles supposed to be called milepoles?

 

---The best I can figure is that this one I was looking for was between RR tracks (KY1707) 1 1/2 FEET BELOW THE LEVEL OF THE GROUND. Does that mean wherever it is you would need to dig 18" down (or more)? Is it possible to be between sets of RR tracks?

 

---I am having trouble doing the county downloads. I am getting that there is no data for my state which is Ohio. I am trying here too and they seem to show up but I'm not sure how to download the info. I can't figure out what I am missing.

 

Thanks for all of the help! :anicute:

Edited by Knight2000

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If one is buried between sets of active RR tracks, I would give it up. Some places you don't dare do anything on the RR right of way. Other places are more lax, but digging close to the tracks (as opposed to the fence line) would be too much almost anywhere.

 

The risks are two: being hit by a train or something dragging off the side of a train car, and being arrested for trespassing which some RR companies are very vigorous about.

 

Mile posts along railroads are of various forms, but are nominally a mile apart with the number on a sign. Sometimes there are half or quarter posts as well but may only give the fraction. Signals, bridges, and other features are numbered typically to the tenth of a mile, maybe to the hundredth, and sometimes omit the decimal.

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Yeah, I'm not going near the tracks for that one! I can hardly beleive it is there. No wonder it wasn't found when they last looked for it. I don't have much faith in that though- two I found today weren't found when they last looked in 87.

 

I think I figured out the paperless. I viewed this. I picked the appropriate place and viewed the sheets. I cut/pasted that info into a text file. Then I used BMGPX.exe. I loaded the GPX into GSAK and ran the Colorado Macro and clicked the box "Load benchmarks as geocaches" and there it is!

 

There is so much info it makes it hard to read. At least I got that much down. Maybe there is an easier way...

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---I've noticed that on a couple that I have found they are a certain direction/distance from a MILEPOLE XXX-XX. Those have matched up with utility poles. (These were all along RR tracks.) I saw no designation on the poles. I assume that the MILEPOLE in this example 147-15 is .15 mile past mile marker 147? Are utility poles supposed to be called milepoles?
This was discussed in another thread - in essence, yes. :sad:

 

---The best I can figure is that this one I was looking for was between RR tracks (KY1707) 1 1/2 FEET BELOW THE LEVEL OF THE GROUND. Does that mean wherever it is you would need to dig 18" down (or more)? Is it possible to be between sets of RR tracks?
It's rare, but does happen. That one would appear to be one of the rare ones. :)

 

---I am having trouble doing the county downloads. I am getting that there is no data for my state which is Ohio. I am trying here too and they seem to show up but I'm not sure how to download the info. I can't figure out what I am missing.
For the NGS site - select your state, then select a county. Then you'll get a list of all the stations in that county. Highlight all entries, (SHIFT+CLICK, Click and Drag), and then click "Get Datasheets". Once the page loads, save it as a Text file.. Then run it through BMGPX or NGSGPX and you'll get your GPX file. :D

 

-Me.

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.....

There is so much info it makes it hard to read. At least I got that much down. Maybe there is an easier way...

You can change how NGS>>GPX formats the datasheet info by playing around with the settings. I've only been doing this for about a year and I'm still tweaking it. I usually load the full sheet in the long description then I have a GSAK macro to strip the PID from the beginning of each line of the full sheet. This is what I currently have for the NGS>>GPX short description setting:

%%pid%% - %%desig%%<br>
Coords - %%lac%%<br>
Alt: %%alt%% -- %%aac%%<br>
<br>
*DETAILS*<br>
Type:	%%marktype%%<br>
Stamp:  %%markstamp%%<br>
Setting: %%markset%%<br>
SpSetting:  %%markspset%%<br>
<br>
%%referencebox%%<br>
<br>
%%finddesc%%<br>

The Box Score (reference box) doesn't display very well...

 

I recently started using the "Use Large Font" option of the GSAK Colorado Export macro and I like that better ( I have a Colorado).

 

There have been more than a few times that I had wished I had a paper copy of the datasheet in hand and I've started taking copies with me sometimes - A cheap, large format (larger than a GPSr screen), long battery life, lightweight, smallsize, tablet kinda thingy that could display at a minimum text files and PDF files would be ideal for me - the cheap part is what I'm hung up on.

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You can change how NGS>>GPX formats the datasheet info by playing around with the settings. I've only been doing this for about a year and I'm still tweaking it.

Jeez. Wait until I finish v3.0. I'm not sure if it'd make it easier for you, or more difficult, honestly I'm not sure.. :D

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Jeez. Wait until I finish v3.0. I'm not sure if it'd make it easier for you, or more difficult, honestly I'm not sure.. :D

hmm... I didn't notice that was you, did you change your picture thingy?? Very curious about v3 - love your app. I thought about asking for having the PID stripped from the fullsheet but ..... i didn't :D

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hmm... I didn't notice that was you, did you change your picture thingy?? Very curious about v3 - love your app. I thought about asking for having the PID stripped from the fullsheet but ..... i didn't :D

eah, avatar change. Been Orson Wells too long. :lol:

 

v3 is going to have more options for surveyors and other uses (due to many requests I've had), and allow several different input formats (via plug-ins). When it's released, DAT files will be accepted, but I'll be working on SHP files from NGS, and LOC files from GC.com. It'll output to GPX, but I'll have a plug-in that will allow KML and TXT (comma delimited or tab delimited). For the GPX output, several pre-definitions will be defined (like for GSAK, DeLorme mapping programs) and will let you declare what goes in most of the GPX fields. The DAT input plug-in will also let you specify more than one file to input from. And it will all be configurable from the command-line, for batch operations.

 

That's planned, in a nutshell. Most of the base stuff is done, I'm in the process of cleaning it up and making the GPX output plug-in. :D

 

Sorry, rambling.

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<----------- newbie. What's v3 and what does it do?

 

Today I went to look for mark KY1740.

 

 KY1740						  STATION RECOVERY (2006)
KY1740
KY1740'RECOVERY NOTE BY US POWER SQUADRON 2006
KY1740'M179 HAS BEEN REPLACED WITH A SUMMIT COUNTY ENGINEER MARKER IN THE
KY1740'SAME LOCATION WHEN THE BRIDGE WAS REBUILT.

It was indeed replaced as reported. As it is scaled and the bridge abutment is new how would you know if this is in the same location? Do I mark this disk destroyed on the geocaching site, mark with a note that it has been replaced, or mark as a find noting the change?

 

Or... It doesn't really matter!?

 

This is addicting. I went out today and was so wishing I could find my metal detector!

Edited by Knight2000

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<----------- newbie. What's v3 and what does it do?

 

Today I went to look for mark KY1740.

 

 KY1740						  STATION RECOVERY (2006)
KY1740
KY1740'RECOVERY NOTE BY US POWER SQUADRON 2006
KY1740'M179 HAS BEEN REPLACED WITH A SUMMIT COUNTY ENGINEER MARKER IN THE
KY1740'SAME LOCATION WHEN THE BRIDGE WAS REBUILT.

It was indeed replaced as reported. As it is scaled and the bridge abutment is new how would you know if this is in the same location? Do I mark this disk destroyed on the geocaching site, mark with a note that it has been replaced, or mark as a find noting the change?

 

Or... It doesn't really matter!?

 

This is addicting. I went out today and was so wishing I could find my metal detector!

When you read the full data sheet, you will notice the US Power Squadron marked the station as "Not Found". This is the right status.

 

Why:

1) You know that the existing mark is wrong because of the stamping of the County Engineers. Therefore it's not the mark. For a bench mark (vertical control), you can't just replace a disk, even in the same drill hole because even that operation would invalidate the carefully measured elevation. It's not found unless it's found.

 

2) so why not "destroyed" instead of "Not Found"? Because you don't know what happened to the old disk or to the bridge. You would have to research and see if it really was rebuilt, if so how? Maybe the old mark is hidden by some new concrete. Or maybe they (and you) were looking at the wrong bridge or the wrong side or whatever. It's only destroyed when the you see them rebuild the bridge and knock the old disk out (and take a picture). I found a station once that was lost for 40 years under a building on a mountain. They removed the building, I came along a few years later, dug down 18" (with a great deal of help from my friend Dave) and we found it. It's not destroyed unless it's destroyed.

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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I see what you are referring to. I didn't see it before. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

KY1740 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

KY1740 HISTORY - UNK MONUMENTED CGS

KY1740 HISTORY - 1954 GOOD CGS

KY1740 HISTORY - 20060122 MARK NOT FOUND USPSQD

 

I guess I could have measured although I don't think it would have mad much of a difference. There was nothing old looking around there. Thanks for the tips! :laughing:

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Uh-oh. More silly questions... :lol:

 

One of the marks I searched for today was KY1640. Stamping: C 178 1954. It was last reported recovered in 1999. It appears the bridge has been dismantled. A new bridge has been built. At least the abutments are new. (There are lots of old stones nearby that I am assuming are the parts to the old stone abutments.) Anyway--- I found mark C 178 RESET 2003.

 

sam0464.th.jpg

 

From what I can see the datasheet mentions nothing past 1999.

 

I cannot find another PID for this mark. From my measurements it is not even remotely in the same location. I recorded 4' 10" west of the west rail and 1' 8" below the level of the track. I am not sure what the proper measurement technique is but I measured from the center of the rail and the top of the rail.

 

I only noticed the discrepancies once I started reading the datasheet along with my notes. There were no old stones set near there.

 

On the other side of the bridge I looked for KY1641. Both sides had piles of old stone from what I deduce was the previous stone abutment. I did look for a mark on different stones in the pile of stones on the side of KY1641 but I neglected to on the other side. (Doh! I just now thought of it!)

 

Datasheets for both from NGS.

 

:P

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A lot of RESET disks have been set but their data taken has been buried in the "Get to it someday" pile and never reached NGS, or else the procedures did not meet NGS requirements for listing in the data base.

 

I think they used the base of rail, as shown in the picture in the 5th post in this thread. I still don't understand why they used the base instead of the top.

 

The easiest way to link NGS data sheets is this handy syntax with the PID changed.

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=AA3903

Edited by Bill93

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A lot of RESET disks have been set but their data taken has been buried in the "Get to it someday" pile and never reached NGS, or else the procedures did not meet NGS requirements for listing in the data base.

That can even be the case when NGS themselves installed the reset mark, such as in "Knight2000"'s example. I know of one like that not far from me.

 

The easiest way to link NGS data sheets is this handy syntax with the PID changed.

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=AA3903

Personally, I keep Zhanna's bookmarklet in my Firefox toolbar:

 

http://surveymarks.planetzhanna.com/

 

Patty

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has anybody figured out how to query the ngs for multiple datasheets from a list of pids?

 

1) Go to the NGS DATASHEET RETRIEVAL PAGE

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/datasheet....Type=DATASHEETS

 

PIDs-0.jpg

 

2) Select the first option "PIDs"

 

3) you can now enter your list of PIDs in the box, of if you have them in a file on your PC, use the lower section to select your file. In this example I entered 3 in Essex County NJ

 

PIDs-1.jpg

 

remember to select an option if desired from the list below that, The only one I ever use is "Include Destroyed Marks."

 

4) click on "Submit"

 

5) another page will appear with another list of the PIDs. Click "Select All" and "Get Datasheets"

 

PIDs-2.jpg

 

6) The datasheets will come up. Save them to your PC and you are done.

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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Yeah, that's a GPS antenna--sort of a white disk if I remember correctly. From an NGS standpoint it isn't really reportable because nobody uses it as a physical location--it is a GPS location and if it becomes no longer available it will be pretty obvious to everyone pretty quickly. It appears to be located on the Strausser Elementary School. . You can report it on GC.com though.

 

Here are a couple pics of one in State College, PA.

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