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Will mobiles dominate handheld GPS?


koskos

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I read about the upcoming Sirf Star IV chip, with 20x lower battery consumption. One of the biggest problems with GPS in mobiles is in fact the battery time.

 

What will happen with the sales of handheld GPS when the chip arrives?

Will we see drastically reduced sales of handheld GPS and everyone go geocaching live instead?

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I read about the upcoming Sirf Star IV chip, with 20x lower battery consumption. One of the biggest problems with GPS in mobiles is in fact the battery time.

 

What will happen with the sales of handheld GPS when the chip arrives?

Will we see drastically reduced sales of handheld GPS and everyone go geocaching live instead?

Take a $400 Droid/iPhone/whatever and a $400 Oregon/whatever, hold above your head. Drop both into a rock creek bed of ankle-deep water. What do you now have? I predict you have a wet Oregon and non-working phone.

 

Each has a place in the market. There's some overlap, but I think the overall market grows and that the phone market isn't the total death of the handheld/outdoor market. The PND market has a bigger overlap, I suspect, esp. as connected PNDs start to look a lot like a modern cell phone.

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IMO mobiles will never replace handhelds, unless they make them waterproof, shock proof and what not to withstand the abuse a handheld can deal with

 

I wonder how a mobile will take it when it slides off the roof of my car while I'm cruising down the highway. The Vista survived just fine.

 

And I'm likely to do it again. :D

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IMO mobiles will never replace handhelds, unless they make them waterproof, shock proof and what not to withstand the abuse a handheld can deal with

And then they will cost more than the average person will pay.

 

Waterproof is no problem anymore, touchscreen, wireless data transmission, even the power supply.

As for shock, just a sturdier housing, no big deal, the electronic of an Iphone is as sturdy as a regular GPS.

 

On an Iphone the GPS is just an application and a GPS chip, cheaper than a dedicated device !

Just a matter of packing a computer with the appropriate sensors (GPS, magnetic flux, acceleratometer, pressure, CCD ...) wireless communication and proper applications.

 

My daughter doesn't use her Garmin Nuvi anymore, her Iphone 3G+ does the job better (GoogleEarth !) and many other things.

 

Only current drawback, batteries !

 

Of course on the trail, in the woods I stick to my 60CX but it will be the last of its kind and when worn out, I expect Iphone or the likes will be to my likings ! It's already close to it.

 

Stand alone GPS only will just become a niche market. In fact they are already !

Edited by Suscrofa
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Waterproof IS still a problem. How many smart phones are rated IPX7? As for the shock proof sturdier case, sure it would be easy but the extra bulk of a stronger more durable case would be a big turn off to all those other millions of potential customers that want thin and light weight and could care less about geocaching.

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Dakboy & Pax42: The problem is weathrproofing. Impact resistance isn't at all difficult in comparison. My own has been dropped and bounced on more hard surfaces more often than I care to admit; but not quite as badly as this one. By comparison, most phones have an awful lot of openings (charging/docking ports, microphone, speakers, headphone jacks) that would be tricky to redesgn. In a few years you might be able to buy a bluetooth only, sealed battery device that uses induction charging. But not today.

Edited by lee_rimar
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Even if phones often are not as durable as handhelds, I believe that regular people to a bigger degree would use their mobiles instead of GPS.

 

It's not only about battery life. The ability to go geocaching spontaneously by using programs like "Geocaching Live", "Geocache Navigator" and such is a big advantage in favour of the mobiles. With a handheld GPS, you can't do that now. I really hope that upcoming handhelds will be able to connect to the internet and include this feature, and makes it possible to log your cache founds on geocaching.com out in the field.

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"Urban cachers" will thrive with smartphones. But the rest of club will continue buying rugged dedicated handheld GPSr's.

 

And why do you think manufacturers won't put SirFStarIV chips into dedicated GPSr's?

 

Of course manufacturers will use Sirfstar IV within handheld GPSr's too.

BUT, what I mainly talk about here is that since mobile battery life (when using GPS) will improve so much, people won't hesitate, to the same degree, using the phone as their primary GPS unit. And they may feel that the need for a dedicated GPS unit is not as big as it was before.

 

I believe that Garmin, Magellan and others are facing a really big threat here.

Edited by koskos
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The mobile phone manufacturers have worked hard to use the lowest cost approach that provides accurate enough information to manage basic road navigation and geolocation for location specific ads, social networking, etc. I've watched folks cache with an iPhone, and while it's certainly workable with some patience, definitely would not be my first choice due to accuracy issues. On my own Moto V750 - I can see that the coordinate data is too "drifty" for using it to find a cache. Most phone/whatever hybrid devices aren't intended for this kind of use, the GPS portion wasn't spec'd for it, and the additional cost of real accuracy wasn't part of the equation.

 

Does anyone else suspect the SiRF IV isn't going to come in at a price point that will attract the interest of Motorola or Nokia? I would expect the additional performance of the device to get the attention of purpose built handheld manufacturers far more quickly.

 

Of the list of improved features that SiRF IV offers, the advantage of lower power consumption is the only serious draw I can see for a phone manufacturer at this point. Dedicated GPS manufacturers, on the other hand, have an audience willing to pay for all of the several benefits this chip promises to offer.

 

Has anyone been able to run down pricing on these new devices?

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Of the list of improved features that SiRF IV offers, the advantage of lower power consumption is the only serious draw I can see for a phone manufacturer at this point. Dedicated GPS manufacturers, on the other hand, have an audience willing to pay for all of the several benefits this chip promises to offer.

 

Prices may be higher in the beginning, but these new chips will be standard and when mass produced price will sink quickly.

Edited by koskos
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Of the list of improved features that SiRF IV offers, the advantage of lower power consumption is the only serious draw I can see for a phone manufacturer at this point. Dedicated GPS manufacturers, on the other hand, have an audience willing to pay for all of the several benefits this chip promises to offer.

 

Prices may be higher in the beginning, but these new chips will be standard and when mass produced price will sink quickly.

But will prices ever be as low as those for the less precise alternatives that already exist and will exist in the future? Those benefit from economy of scale as well.

 

GPS precision is not and may never be the focus of a "smart phone" manufacturer, but it's something the eTrex crowd will continue to want. I'm guessing that the use model for the "smart phone" business will continue to drive them toward the least costly choice. Unless the cost for the additional precision is reduced to near zero, I'm not expecting to see it happen.

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I believe that production of "nr III" will decrease over time and the inclusion of IV will be standard. If the increase in precision for mobiles can at least equal the precision that current eTrex models have, then I believe mobiles will become a serious threat against dedicated GPSr's.

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I believe that production of "nr III" will decrease over time and the inclusion of IV will be standard. If the increase in precision for mobiles can at least equal the precision that current eTrex models have, then I believe mobiles will become a serious threat against dedicated GPSr's.
The mobile manufacturers aren't (mostly) using the kind of chips that an eTrex uses NOW, and it's cost as much (or more) than battery life issues that drives that business decision. If the mobile manufacturers can continue to get lower cost "good enough" precision technology for their phones, they'll continue to do so, and the manufacturers of purpose built GPS units will continue to pay (and charge for) the improved GPS technology. Garmin will look at bleeding edge development in GPS chip solutions. Apple, Nokia and Motorola have no reason to do so for the use model that fits their products, so they'll never have the edge in GPS. They don't need it. Ever wonder why none of them support WAAS? Cost - plain and simple.
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ECAnderson, you're hit it exactly with the "good enough" point: To stay profitable companies will design their hardware to be as inexpensive as possible while still being "good enough" for their target audience. For huge numbers of people, a "good enough" GPS only needs to be accurate within a few tens of metres. That's good enough to tell when to turn, where the nearest cafe is, etc... For many sporting enthusiasts, two to three metres is good enough.

 

Geocachers and a few other specialists are the ones who need or want tighter accuracy than that. And whie this may come as a surprise to readers in this forum, we're really a tiny, minor bit of market share.

 

SO .. taking the original thread title literally -- Yes, I do think "mobile" (which I take to mean smartphone) devices will dominate the bigger parts of the handheld GPS market.

 

But probably not in the minor market segment we occupy.

Edited by lee_rimar
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Will mobiles dominate handheld GPS? I think the answer is 'not for anyone who really wants a GPS'. Look at your outdoor gear outfitters like REI and the like. Are they selling mobile phones? No. Why do you think that is?

Someone who wants a GPS for being outdoors, is not going to go shopping for a mobile phone.

Alot of people may seem to be using GPS on their phones but it's not because they wanted a GPS. It's because they wanted a phone and it happened to have a GPS on it. Just my two cents.

Cheers! :laughing:

Edited by ace862
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This may freak some of you out, but despite being 35, a father of two, husband, and having a professional career — I do not own or carry a cell phone. There WILL be a market for handheld GPS's. In regards to my anti-cell stance, try it...the world does not collapse and life does go on. Go ahead, cut that leash and be truly free. Don't be a slave to being connected at all times. I am living proof that life does indeed go on.

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Forgive me for saying this but out here in the middle of the US - cell phone and 3G coverage is barely thier or non-existent. No cell phone I've ever owned was ruggedized anywhere close to my GPS units. Battery life is a huge issue on cell devices. Accuracy of arial maps is a long way from city areas. Screen brightness in sunlight is pitiful on most cell devices. I thinhk the cell market has an awful long way to go to even start comparing them to dedicated GPS units.

 

Besides - I am just happy to make calls on my cell. I don't need a way inferior chepo camera. I don't need an expensive somewhat slow alternative access to the internet. I don't need a built-in MP3 player. I don't need a barely capable cheap GPS thrown in just to make it appeal to folks that don't know any better. I just want a phone.

 

My standalone anything is far better than any combo device I have ever been forced to use.

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This may freak some of you out, but despite being 35, a father of two, husband, and having a professional career — I do not own or carry a cell phone. There WILL be a market for handheld GPS's. In regards to my anti-cell stance, try it...the world does not collapse and life does go on. Go ahead, cut that leash and be truly free. Don't be a slave to being connected at all times. I am living proof that life does indeed go on.

The key to owning a cell phone is to make sure that it doesn't own you. Keep in mind that the device is for your convenience, and suppress the Pavlovian response to check/answer it every time it beeps, and it's not intrusive at all.

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I suspect that as many have mentioned that there will continue to be growth in both areas.

 

I now use my iphone as a turn by turn navigator, which because I am paranoid is in an otterbox defender case (LINK) while not waterproof, is seriously water resistant and impact protected. However it just doesn't have the accuracy and battery life I want when hiking, and I wouldn't want to count on it in an emergency.

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I'd be willing to guess that over the next 2 years, the overwhelming number of casual geocachers drift towards the iPhone and Android devices, just b/c it's a device they want to own anyway.

 

If you've already got the thing in your pocket and it gets you within 30' of the cache, that's usually enough to get your geosenses going--that extra 20' may be worth spending a hundred bucks or so to fix, but it isn't worth carrying around another device all the time.

 

Serious cachers (and people who aren't willing to drink the big cell company koolaid) will continue to buy and use dedicated units.

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My main issue with caching with my phone is I hate touching it after I've touched the cache container or rooted around in the bushes searching. I didn't want to soil the trackball on my BlackBerry and now the touch screen on my Android. I've had caching apps on both. Use the app mainly for car navigation though.

 

There's just no way I would cache without a dedicated GPSr.

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A Google search finds that Smart Phones in the US were only 10% in 1st Q 2009 and 18% in 1st Q 2010. Although they are growing, probably due to Buy One Get One Free promos, 18% is very little of the over all cellular market.

Now take into consideration that 3 quarters of that is business dedicated, what's left over is a very small percentage of recreational smart phone users. Then of that very small amount how many are Geocachers?

 

It's very economically sound to buy a Caching app for your phone for 99 cents or for free, but the risk is very high for a device not designed for outdoor/wilderness use. Not everyone with cellular is willing to pay for Data service either.

 

A very big concern for me is data connectivity. My Android is only as good as it's network connection. I know that I can download Google maps to my data card for off network use, but why should anyone have to learn hacking skills to use their GPSr device?

 

I believe that most new Cachers are more inclined to depend on a simple dedicated device, than are going to be geeky Smart phone users trying to avoid paying for a dedicated GPSr device.

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