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Invalid "finds" being logged

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quote:
Quite simple.....

 

Not quite.... Here's where I'm lost. Found marker, as advertised, 11.2 feet north of the north end of a boat ramp, in concrete sea wall. BC1543 to be exact. GPS coordinates very close.

 

The data sheet says the designation is "872 0030 TIDAL 2".

 

The marker says "NATIONAL OCEAN SURVEY". "FOR INFORMATION WRITE TO DIRECTOR, WASHINGTON D.C."

 

Stamped in the center is "NO . 2" and "1974" (along with some slash line that didn't come with this keyboard).

 

I assumed it should say at least TIDAL 2. But then again, I'm new at this so maybe it should say "872 0030 TIDAL 2". Or maybe "TIDAL" is assumed and "2" means we win the beans.....

 

Large picture HERE (157K)

 

Another example. BC0167. In the wall of a hundred year old post office, located as advertised, but covered with crud, and behind 8 or 10 feet of post office pretty landscaping, so not a good idea to climb thru the flowers and clean it off with a brillo pad, especially on a busy street on Saturday afternoon. GPS coordinates match, but even with my best shot with a zoom lens I can't see any "E 3" on the digital picture. I can't see ANY stamp. From the sidewalk, I could barely see the marker.....

 

Large picture HERE (91K)

 

On some other markers, same problem - nice engraving around the outside, on the right building, GPS very close, but nada in the stamp department.

 

Forget those and look for ones that have been stamped in the last 10 years so you can still read them?

 

I understand the behind the fence concept. I saw a marker in an ally, in plain sight, nothing in the ally but the marker and 3 weeds, but I couldn't get over the 15' high locked steel gate to take the picture, so I forgot about it.

 

I understand the accuracy concept. I don't want to be the first one to 700,000.

 

Again, the reason this is confusing (to me anyway) is quite simple. Most of the markers I have found I can't find a stamp/designation. But on a few it's quite obvious, as it was on one that I found today. The other thing that escapes me is the fact that the Florida Department of Natural Resources says these are all GOOD CONDITION last time they checked. Maybe they ground off the designators last time around?

 

So now what?

 

Thanks,

BeachBum22

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quote:
The FAQs can be found on the main Benchmarking page if you scroll down.

 

I read that page about 14 times looking for a link to the FAQ's. I guess maybe some of us slow people need more details :-)

 

Thanks,

BeachBum22

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When we updated the page a few months ago, none of us ever thought that we should put 'Frequently Asked Questions' on the top of it. It was short-sighted on our part. [icon_smile.gif] Sorry for the confusion. I'll try to get that remedied.

 

Keep on Caching!

- Kewaneh

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quote:
Originally posted by BeachBum22:

GPS coordinates very close.


Since the mark is SCALED, you can't really conclude too much from a coordinate match.

quote:
The data sheet says the designation is "872 0030 TIDAL 2".
Don't read too much into the DESIGNATION; as the NGS says, "Usually the DESIGNATION does not match exactly with the STAMPING." Your marker has a STAMPING entry in the datasheet which exactly matches what you found. Sometimes there is no STAMPING entry in the datasheet, but the stamping is described in the STATION DESCRIPTION.

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quote:
Don't read too much into the DESIGNATION; as the NGS says, "Usually the DESIGNATION does not match exactly with the STAMPING." Your marker has a STAMPING entry in the datasheet which exactly matches what you found.

 

Thanks, when I said "data sheet" I should have said web page, I was using the data on the web site but I found the NGS data sheets which are very helpful.

 

BeachBum22

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quote:
Originally posted by BeachBum22:

Thanks, when I said "data sheet" I should have said web page, I was using the data on the web site but I found the NGS data sheets which are very helpful.


 

Yeah, that's something to keep in mind. In my miniscule bit of benchmarking I've found the actual NGS data sheets to sometimes have more info on them than the webpage.

 

Team Kender - "The Sun is coming up!" "No, the horizon is going down."

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Looking through the gallery I see some people making some incorrect logs on Pennsylvania Highway Department disks. They are logging finds for Department of Transportation disks. These are not the same as Department of Highways disks. Penndot did not exist in 1942. In some cases the bridge has been replaced and

the Department of Highways disks are gone. But Penndot put a newer disk in its place.

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Beachbum22,

You have certainly nailed BC1543. Click on the link to "view original datasheet" near the top of the benchmark page to view the official datasheet, and you'll see this line:

 

BC1543_STAMPING: NO. 2 1974

 

I *always* go out with the official datasheet (though the map and logs on this site can be very useful). Though the official datasheet has lots of extraneous information (extraneous for our purposes, that is), it is also more up-to-date that the datasheets you get here, which date back to around 2000.

 

Also, if you are questioned by any authorities while out benchmarking, I think the official sheet makes you look more, well, official.

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quote:
I *always* go out with the official datasheet (though the map and logs on this site can be very useful). Though the official datasheet has lots of extraneous information (extraneous for our purposes, that is), it is also more up-to-date that the datasheets you get here, which date back to around 2000.

 

Thanks, I figured that out last week. I've also noticed that the data sheets from the NGS website are updated vs. the ones here on the web site. Saw a few that were updated in 2002 even.....

 

I wrote a VB program that will suck all the datasheets from NGS for each mark I have in a LOC file that I download here, and I also got all the NGS sheets for three counties that I carry around in the PC in case I find one I'm not looking for or forget to print a sheet. I still don't understand a bunch of stuff on the NGS sheets, so I stripped out about half of what was there to keep the file size down, but I did figure out what STAMPING meant icon_cool.gif

 

I was having a hell of time trying to find a marker with a PID stamped on it icon_confused.gif

 

BeachBum22

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DG2698 was recently logged as a 'find,' but it presents two problems.

 

One, the rooftop disk was not actually visited by the person claiming the find. (To be fair, the individual has logged a very small number of benchmarks.) And second, the 1973 description says the mark has been destroyed, so it is doubtful that the disk is actually there to be seen.

 

This latter point is raises some questions, at least in my mind, since the 'destroyed' comment is included in the original description of the station. It seems odd - and maybe one of our survey professionals can provide a possible scenario - that a mark would be monumented in 1973 and reported destroyed, all in one report. (See text below.) Maybe it was intended as a temporary station, but then why is it in the NGS database?

 

DG2698 HISTORY - Date Condition Recov. By

DG2698 HISTORY - 1973 MONUMENTED MARTA

DG2698

DG2698 STATION DESCRIPTION

DG2698

DG2698''DESCRIBED BY METRO ATLANTA RTA 1973 (JSK)

DG2698''STATION IS ON TOP OF THE HOME FOR THE ELDERLY BUILDING LOCATED AT

DG2698''1600 CONNALLY DRIVE, 0.3 MILES WEST OF MAIN STREET. THE STATION

DG2698''IS LOCATED AT THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE BUILDING.

DG2698''

DG2698''STATION MARK IS A STANDARD MARTA BRASS DISK EPOXIED ON THE ROOF

DG2698''OF BUILDING.

DG2698''

DG2698''POINT HAS BEEN DESTROYED DUE TO BUILDING CONSTRUCTION TOGETHER

DG2698''WITH ALL REFERENCE MARKS.

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quote:
Originally posted by ArtMan:

This latter point is raises some questions, at least in my mind, since the 'destroyed' comment is included in the original description of the station. It seems odd - and maybe one of our survey professionals can provide a possible scenario - that a mark would be monumented in 1973 and reported destroyed, all in one report. (See text below.) Maybe it was intended as a temporary station, but then why is it in the NGS database?


My interpretation of this and similar situations that I have noticed in datasheets is that the marker was actually placed at some earlier time and the 1973 description was repeating some of the verbiage from the original documentation. Sometimes it is obvious what the situation is, for example, the original history is sometimes undated and has no agency code. Other times, like this one, it is more obscure.

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I happen to have been living in Atlanta in 1973, and my recollection is that MARTA - the regional transit authority - was in the early stages of planning its rapid transit system at this time. Which would make it a likely time to be setting survey monuments. A MARTA disk placed much earlier would seem pointless to me; you don't need high-precision geodetic location information to run a bus system. So I think it very possible the station *was* monumented in 1973.

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quote:
Originally posted by ArtMan:

I happen to have been living in Atlanta in 1973, and my recollection is that MARTA - the regional transit authority - was in the early stages of planning its rapid transit system at this time. Which would make it a likely time to be setting survey monuments. A MARTA disk placed much earlier would seem pointless to me; you don't need high-precision geodetic location information to run a bus system. So I think it very possible the station *was* monumented in 1973.


umm... Good point. Plus, the designation is SOUTH MARTA 1973. That is a pretty good indication that is was monumented in 1973 by MARTA (or its contractors). So, I would have to agree with you and now change my mind to say that this may be a subsequent report submitted under the original 1973 date with the added comment that the point was destroyed. Somehow it all got combined into one report that leads to the confusion.

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Hey, its not an INVALID find......the building is there, thus making this a HORIZONTAL CONTROL, like for example, a water tower.

 

Questions about these recent finds, contact me, also, I have been taking and posting pictures of these finds.

 

Strip Mining PREVENTS Forest Fires!

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I hate to pick nits here but in the case of DG2698, it is not a find. That mark is, as you stated, a horizontal control mark, not because it was on a building, but by virtue of the fact that horizontal control was the intended purpose of the mark. The building was not the mark - the brass disk on the roof was - and if the mark (and its accessories) are removed, the building does not 'become' the mark.

 

In many cases, buildings, towers, tanks, spires, stacks, etc. have been used as horizontal and/or triangulation control, but the point sighted by the surveyor from another distant triangulation station was specified explicitly. In this case, the brass disk on the roof was intended to be occupied by a surveying instrument to either measure to other adjacent stations, or be measured to from those other adjacent stations. If the brass disk is now missing, the building cannot be used in its place unless a specific point on that building is identified for that purpose.

 

Keep on Caching! (and Benchmarking!)

- Kewaneh

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quote:
Originally posted by Kewaneh & Shark:

I hate to pick nits here but in the case of DG2698, it is not a find. That mark is, as you stated, a horizontal control mark, not because it was on a building, but by virtue of the fact that horizontal control was the intended purpose of the mark. The building was not the mark - the brass disk on the roof was - and if the mark (and its accessories) are removed, the building does not 'become' the mark.

 

In many cases, buildings, towers, tanks, spires, stacks, etc. have been used as horizontal and/or triangulation control, but the point sighted by the surveyor from another distant triangulation station was specified explicitly. In this case, the brass disk on the roof was intended to be occupied by a surveying instrument to either measure to other adjacent stations, or be measured to from those other adjacent stations. If the brass disk is now missing, the building cannot be used in its place unless a specific point on that building is identified for that purpose.

 

Keep on Caching! (and Benchmarking!)

- Kewaneh


 

Okay, I'll change it to destroyed. Even though I can get access, I spoke with the building maintenance man; he said, its no longer there, and he dont know what they did with the disk!

 

Also, surveyors here in East Point have told me, that they still use the southeast corner of the NELMS HOUSE as a horizontal control point.

 

By the way, as far as invalid benchmarks go, I do bring along a digital camera and take a snaphot of it, and post it with my log......Nuff Said......

 

Strip Mining PREVENTS Forest Fires!

 

[This message was edited by Vexorg_EPPD on August 20, 2003 at 05:56 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Kewaneh & Shark:

I hate to pick nits here but in the case of DG2698, it is not a find. That mark is, as you stated, a horizontal control mark, not because it was on a building, but by virtue of the fact that horizontal control was the intended purpose of the mark. The building was not the mark - the brass disk on the roof was - and if the mark (and its accessories) are removed, the building does not 'become' the mark.

 

In many cases, buildings, towers, tanks, spires, stacks, etc. have been used as horizontal and/or triangulation control, but the point sighted by the surveyor from another distant triangulation station was specified explicitly. In this case, the brass disk on the roof was intended to be occupied by a surveying instrument to either measure to other adjacent stations, or be measured to from those other adjacent stations. If the brass disk is now missing, the building cannot be used in its place unless a specific point on that building is identified for that purpose.

 

Keep on Caching! (and Benchmarking!)

- Kewaneh


 

Speaking of physical BMs on rooftops of public buildings, has anyone figured out a routine or specific requests to make in order to access the roof.

 

Team Kender - "The Sun is coming up!" "No, the horizon is going down."

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....helps if you are employed by the city that owns the building....and you get further with a badge, gun, and kind word, than just a kind word alone! icon_wink.gif

 

Strip Mining PREVENTS Forest Fires!

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quote:
Originally posted by jeff35080:

quote:
helps if you are employed by the city that owns the building....and you get further with a badge, gun, and kind word, than just a kind word alone!

 

Out of curiousity... how long have you been on the job?

 

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

If you hide it, they will come....


 

Just a tongue in cheek response on a famous quote from Al Capone (i.e. you'll get further with a gun and a kind word, than just a kind word alone).....would never misuse the badge for my own hobbies and interests!

 

Strip Mining PREVENTS Forest Fires!

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