English language for cache description

[+BlueDeuce]

So, what is Finnish for TNLNSL?

 

I'm sorry, but that was funny.

 

 

geesh, talk about a hard time fixing the quote thingy

Edited March 26, 2010 by BlueDeuce

[ad5smith]

as a side question, is english th official language of the USA, if so then why does everyplace (seemingly) have their menus also in spanish. am i the only one seeing this

 

ever heard of bilingual countries?

 

ok ok point taken, BUT what about the language situation going into another country, When i went to Costa Rica, very few menus and signs were in english, why is the USA the only country that does this? PC? All it does is cripples our country futher.

 

really, US is the only country?

 

 

let me give you a hint...is the Great White North, and no, we don't live in igloos..but have two official languages, English and French

 

ok, thanks for the info, i didn't realize that, wow , does it ever get confusing?

[+Happy Bubbles]

ok ok point taken, BUT what about the language situation going into another country, When i went to Costa Rica, very few menus and signs were in english, why is the USA the only country that does this? PC? All it does is cripples our country futher.

 

The USA is not the only country that does that. Japanese is the official language of Japan, but most road signs have English as well as Japanese. All the train lines and public transportation systems make announcements and write station signs in both languages, while tons of private businesses provide English menus and so forth. Except in the northernmost prefecture, Hokkaido, where a lot of that information is in Russian! This is in a country where over 98% of the population is native-born Japanese. They don`t do it because it`s PC - they do it because it makes good economic and social sense to make it easy for people to move around, spend money, and otherwise function smoothly in this country regardless of whether they`re fluent in the dominant language. How does making things easier for people "cripple" a nation?

 

Back on the subject of geocaching, almost all of the cache pages around here are written in English. Sometimes there isn`t any Japanese on the page, even when it`s clear that the cache owner doesn`t actually speak English. Many use automatic translations that produce "English" that`s almost incomprehensible. A cache on my watchlist provides the following English text with no Japanese text:

A turnip and a park are parks of 4,605 square meters in area that they are located in the north side along Utajima Toyosato line to run between Hoshin and Toyosato, and posted about 1,000 green in circumference and the west amusement place.

 

Obviously the easiest solution for everyone is to have good translations available in both languages, but if that`s not possible I wish cache owners would stick to the language they`re most comfortable in. I`d rather have to translate some Japanese myself than have nothing to work with but some very messed-up English.

[+Jackalgirl]

ok ok point taken, BUT what about the language situation going into another country, When i went to Costa Rica, very few menus and signs were in english, why is the USA the only country that does this? PC? All it does is cripples our country futher.

 

Other countries make use of bilingual signs. In Japan, it's extremely common for train and highway signs to be in Japanese and English. It's very common to find menus in Japanese and English, also (and, sometimes, other languages).

 

I highly doubt that restaurants that provide menus in English and Spanish are trying to be PC. If you are in a region in which there is a large population of Spanish-speakers and you would like the Spanish-speakers' business, it behooves you to provide a menu that is in Spanish. You may argue that restaurants should force their clientele to learn English; however, the purpose of a restaurant is not to enforce someone's ideas of a common language -- it is to sell food.

 

Likewise, Groundspeak should in no way require cachers to provide cache pages in English (or, I think, even recommend it). Let the cachers speak to their intended audience in those ways they feel is best.

 

Edited to add: I see that Bubbles beat me to the observation about Japan and to the observation regarding the encouragement of commerce through multilingualism!

Edited March 26, 2010 by Jackalgirl

[+Jackalgirl]

as a side question, is english th official language of the USA, if so then why does everyplace (seemingly) have their menus also in spanish. am i the only one seeing this

 

ever heard of bilingual countries?

 

ok ok point taken, BUT what about the language situation going into another country, When i went to Costa Rica, very few menus and signs were in english, why is the USA the only country that does this? PC? All it does is cripples our country futher.

 

really, US is the only country?

 

 

let me give you a hint...is the Great White North, and no, we don't live in igloos..but have two official languages, English and French

 

ok, thanks for the info, i didn't realize that, wow , does it ever get confusing?

 

Why would it be confusing?

[+Taoiseach]

Why would it be confusing?

 

Because the language police make us read everything in both official languages

 

I agree with this though. Furthermore, I think that all cache descriptions should have to be yng Nghymraeg, Slovenčina, et te reo Māori. I'll get to work translating GC209Y8.

 

And to call English a privileged language? That's just this side of offensive.

 

As a monoglot Anglophone who feels that the English Government owes me Irish Gaelic lessons, I do find it offensive that there are still people that are so Anglocentric that they would want to force everyone to put something in English. Do you want to dust off the 'Welsh Not' boards too? Maybe we can make the whole world one big melting pot, and destroy everything that isn't just like us. A new world! A better world! An English world!

 

[+t4e]

 

ok, thanks for the info, i didn't realize that, wow , does it ever get confusing?

 

lets see, i don't speak french, but the first side i always see when i look at a label in a store is the french

 

i swear the language police, Taoiseach mentioned, goes around and flips over everything to face french first

Edited March 26, 2010 by t4e

[+Taoiseach]

i swear the language police, Taoiseach mentioned, goes around and flips over everything to face french first

 

Narcissa & I went across the river to see the Montreal-Gatineau game last night, and I swear they were watching me

[+Too Tall John]

ok ok point taken, BUT what about the language situation going into another country, When i went to Costa Rica, very few menus and signs were in english, why is the USA the only country that does this? PC? All it does is cripples our country futher.

The USA isn't the only country that does this. I remember traveling through Scandinavia and being able to get around quite nicely, reading signs, menus, etc without a problem because they were all in English.

 

Oh, and what really is going to cripple our country further is the seeming inability of citizens to take enough pride in their English skills to check for spelling, punctuation, and capitalization.

[4wheelin_fool]

But what about the countries where the cachers just download the coords and don't read the pages?

[+Jackalgirl]

But what about the countries where the cachers just download the coords and don't read the pages?

 

I object to the use of Arabic numerals for cache coordinates. This is a global activity using computers; all the numbers should therefore be presented in binary.

[+GeoGeeBee]

 

Because the language police make us read everything in both official languages

 

 

How do I contact these language police? I want to file a complaint.

 

I found a religious tract in a cache, and it was only in one language! I demand that all religious tracts in caches be bi-lingual!

[+sbell111]

ok ok point taken, BUT what about the language situation going into another country, When i went to Costa Rica, very few menus and signs were in english, why is the USA the only country that does this? PC? All it does is cripples our country futher.

First, I wasn't aware that the country was 'crippled'. Also, I don't see how having information available to people who do not read english cripples anything. Their being able to receive this information certainly does not hinder my ability to do so.

[+Castle Mischief]

ok ok point taken, BUT what about the language situation going into another country, When i went to Costa Rica, very few menus and signs were in english, why is the USA the only country that does this? PC? All it does is cripples our country futher.

First, I wasn't aware that the country was 'crippled'. Also, I don't see how having information available to people who do not read english cripples anything. Their being able to receive this information certainly does not hinder my ability to do so.

 

Word. OMG the spedometer on my car is ALSO IN METRIC!?!?!?! HOW EVER WILL I DRIVE????

[7rxc]

ok, thanks for the info, i didn't realize that, wow , does it ever get confusing?

 

lets see, i don't speak french, but the first side i always see when i look at a label in a store is the french

 

i swear the language police, Taoiseach mentioned, goes around and flips over everything to face french first

 

What started to bother me was when I was halfway through reading the French side BEFORE I realized the box was turned around!

 

Confusing? NO PROBLEMO!

 

Doug

[+Renegade Knight]

....I would like to know the opinion of others...

 

I think it's a nice courtesy especially where there is the potential for a lot of non local finders who speak another language where English may be the language they have in common.

 

However I think it's a courtesy, and not a rule. That 95% of the caches in your country have the dual description is thinking ahead to the fact that the cache owners want finders to enjoy the caches.

[+dfx]

ever been to israel?

 

everything is in THREE languages there: english, hebrew and arabic. would you be confused by that?

[+Renegade Knight]

ok ok point taken, BUT what about the language situation going into another country, When i went to Costa Rica, very few menus and signs were in english, why is the USA the only country that does this? PC? All it does is cripples our country futher.

 

There are some ironys in the USA.

 

We don't have an official language. It should be english though as it's the most common language. By demographic, German very well could have been the language but the English colonized and the Germans (who outnumber the english in this country) chose to change to what had already become the common language. There are pockets here and there were English was never the local common language.

 

So to answer your question. MOST countries and a heck of a lot of people recognize that English is the unoffical world lanaguage. You learn your local language and English and since everone else does that (for the most part) English becomes the common language when A Finn is trying to talk to a Nigerian or about any other combination. Hence the prominence of English in Japan and other locations.

 

That all said, if the locals don't see a lot of travlers from all over...they would have no reason to post anything at all in English. Just the local language.

 

The USA gets clobbered for not 'speaking' other languages. We just got lucky in that we speak English to begin with. Our perfect second langauge is also our first...for most of us. A lot of folks don't remember that the reason we speak English is the same reason English became the unofficial second language of most countries. The British Empire.

[+HawkLawless1]

I don't see cache descriptions in other languages as a detractor...just a different type of a puzzle cache requiring a little more preparation. Would rather that than each cache description looking like the directions to my blu-ray disc player...9 different languages...and mostly because I can never get it folded back the right way.

[+Taoiseach]

 

Because the language police make us read everything in both official languages

 

 

How do I contact these language police? I want to file a complaint.

 

I found a religious tract in a cache, and it was only in one language! I demand that all religious tracts in caches be bi-lingual!

 

To find them, it only takes three simple steps;

 

1) Move to Quebec

2) Open up a shop

3) Put only English on your sign

 

They'll come to you quickly enough

[+Castle Mischief]

The USA gets clobbered for not 'speaking' other languages. We just got lucky in that we speak English to begin with. Our perfect second langauge is also our first...for most of us. A lot of folks don't remember that the reason we speak English is the same reason English became the unofficial second language of most countries. The British Empire.

 

It's because we occupy so much dang real estate. Travel 2000 miles in the US and you'll encounter mostly English speakers and a smattering of other languages. Travel 2000 miles in Europe and you can encounter a more equal distribution of a handful of languages. If the people living in the state of Mississippi spoke Missississississopian, chances are some of us in Alabama would pick it up too as would a few folks in all the surrounding states.

 

Whoever mentioned commerce as the driving factor hit the nail on the head.

[+Cache O'Plenty]

Just a quick observation: All laws in the US must be in English. Although they are translated, the official version is the English version. The same goes for all voting information booklets and voting documents. However, in order to have an "informed" voting citizen, we print our ballots in multiple languages, depending on the demographics of the area.

[+dfx]

MOST countries and a heck of a lot of people recognize that English is the unoffical world lanaguage.

i wouldn't call it "world language", but it definitely is the de-facto international language of the internet. if you're making a website and want to tailor it towards international audience, you make it in english.

 

of course the dominance of the internet in the past 20 years has made english strong in most other areas of life as well.

You learn your local language and English and since everone else does that (for the most part) English becomes the common language when A Finn is trying to talk to a Nigerian or about any other combination. Hence the prominence of English in Japan and other locations.

that wasn't necessarily true in the past. not too long ago, where i come from originally the students (or rather their parents) had to choose between english and french as primary foreign language in school. depending on which path they chose in school, they may have ended up not learning english at all, only french.

 

i don't know if this is still true today, it's very likely that they changed the school system by now.

 

The USA gets clobbered for not 'speaking' other languages. We just got lucky in that we speak English to begin with.

what about the brits? don't they learn any other languages in school? french, german maybe or spanish?

[+t4e]

i swear the language police, Taoiseach mentioned, goes around and flips over everything to face french first

 

Narcissa & I went across the river to see the Montreal-Gatineau game last night, and I swear they were watching me

 

you two in Ottawa, are in the thick of the action there

 

we plan to come to Ottawa for the Tulip Festival, maybe we can get together for a day of caching, will be nice to meet you two

[+Taoiseach]

what about the brits? don't they learn any other languages in school? french, german maybe or spanish?

 

Be careful with a term like 'Brits.' There are Welsh medium schools in Wales and Gaelic medium schools in Scotland, and certainly an opportunity to learn them in English medium schools in Wales and Scotland. There is also a Gaeltacht in Belfast, and Irish taught there.

 

One other note on language in Canada - Despite the fact that the bill to make Scottish Gaelic an official language died in the Senate in 1890, there are still areas in Nova Scotia where the schools are allowed to offer Core Gaelic instead of Core French.

 

As for the English, I can't really answer that question. I'd imagine that French, German and/or Spanish are at least offered in High School, if not elementary.

[+Taoiseach]

i swear the language police, Taoiseach mentioned, goes around and flips over everything to face french first

 

Narcissa & I went across the river to see the Montreal-Gatineau game last night, and I swear they were watching me

 

you two in Ottawa, are in the thick of the action there

 

we plan to come to Ottawa for the Tulip Festival, maybe we can get together for a day of caching, will be nice to meet you two

 

We should be around for that - Let us know when you're coming!

Edited March 26, 2010 by Taoiseach

[+dfx]

As for the English, I can't really answer that question. I'd imagine that French, German and/or Spanish are at least offered in High School, if not elementary.

i'm sure they're offered in school, i'm more wondering about whether one of them would be mandatory.

 

and btw, apart from the internet there's another reason why english has a large international dominance: TV. some countries are non-dubbing countries, meaning movies and serieses on TV will be shown in their original language (english for the most part), with subtitles in the local language. in those countries (for example the netherlands and scandinavian countries) pretty much everybody will be more or less fluent in english. in the other countries (for example france, italy or germany), everything on TV will be dubbed in the local language, and in those countries the percentage of people who don't speak english at all or only very badly is quite high.

Edited March 27, 2010 by dfx

[+Taoiseach]

As for the English, I can't really answer that question. I'd imagine that French, German and/or Spanish are at least offered in High School, if not elementary.

i'm sure they're offered in school, i'm more wondering about whether one of them would be mandatory.

 

and btw, apart from the internet there's another reason why english has a large international dominance: TV. some countries are non-dubbing countries, meaning movies and serieses on TV will be shown in their original language (english for the most part), with subtitles in the local language. in those countries (for example the netherlands and scandinavian countries) pretty much everybody will be more or less fluent in english. in the other counrties (for example france, italy or germany), everything on TV will be dubbed in the local language, and in those countries the percentage of people who don't speak english at all or only very badly is quite high.

 

From what I've gathered through some very quick research, is that classes in a 'Modern Foreign Language' is compulsory for students in Key Stage 3 (Ages 11-14), and must be offered to students in Key Stage 4 (Ages 14-16) who wish to take it. English has to be taught throughout, with the exception of Key Stage 1 (Ages 5-7) in Welsh Medium Schools. Note that the National Curriculum does not apply to Scotland.

 

I think that the National Curriculum for England, Wales and Northern Ireland might be designed to allow students to choose which 'Modern Foreign Language' they would like to take.

 

Where are The Blorenges et al when you need them?

Edited March 26, 2010 by Taoiseach

[ad5smith]

ok ok point taken, BUT what about the language situation going into another country, When i went to Costa Rica, very few menus and signs were in english, why is the USA the only country that does this? PC? All it does is cripples our country futher.

The USA isn't the only country that does this. I remember traveling through Scandinavia and being able to get around quite nicely, reading signs, menus, etc without a problem because they were all in English.

 

Oh, and what really is going to cripple our country further is the seeming inability of citizens to take enough pride in their English skills to check for spelling, punctuation, and capitalization.

 

Ok sure the joke's on me, i'm sorry that my phone's keyboard is small and i don't take time to capitalize all proper nouns, boy my students would never let me live it down! lol

So to make it up to all forum readers, a free round of donuts, bacon, and beer for everyone!

 

IMHO When a country changes for what the seemingly standard is, to cater to others, ok it's fine. BUT (here we go- a can of worms) it makes it so that those who enter the country, by whatever means it seemingly easier for those to not learn the lanuage of the imigrated country. When i go to a foreign country, i either have to learn the lanuage or have a buddy that can. For the most part, other countries don't just cater to me or other foreigners, like the USA.

[JohnX]

Just out of curiosity, how many native born Americans here have learned a second language to the point of proficiency?

[+t4e]

Just out of curiosity, how many native born Americans here have learned a second language to the point of proficiency?

 

my guess is that its somewhere bellow 5% of the population

[+dfx]

From what I've gathered through some very quick research, is that classes in a 'Modern Foreign Language' is compulsory for students in Key Stage 3 (Ages 11-14), and must be offered to students in Key Stage 4 (Ages 14-16) who wish to take it. English has to be taught throughout, with the exception of Key Stage 1 (Ages 5-7) in Welsh Medium Schools. Note that the National Curriculum does not apply to Scotland.

ok, so they must learn at least one foreign language, right?

 

the next question therefore is: what about the US? does their school system require them to learn any foreign language?

 

afaik it doesn't (please correct me if i'm wrong), and that's the problem. european school systems don't require their kids to learn a foreign language just to get around in a modern (internationally english speaking) world, they do that for general educational purposes. knowing foreign languages offers a lot of beneficial skills, especially to native english speakers, who naturally have no idea about grammatical gender or cases. it teaches you about foreign cultures, because a large part of each culture is directly dependent on the language.

 

which is why internationally, people generally look down on the american school system. graduated students may have never learned another language or even anything about other cultures at all. from a european view, that's outright ridiculous.

[+Cache O'Plenty]

When I was in HS (east coast USA), it was mandatory to take a second language if you were preparing to attend college. Our choices were Spanish, French or Latin. Yes, Latin.

 

Latin definately helped me with my English. Spanish helped me as I moved to the West Coast (California). Didn't really need it until the last 10-15 years though.

 

I'm of the mind that if I'm going to visit a foreign nation, it's up to me to learn enough of their language. I'd be the visitor and wouldn't expect them to learn my language. I'm just fortunate that my native language is English and is understood in much of the world. Still, I think visitors should attempt to learn my language if they are visiting me and I'd do likewise if I was visiting them.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Cache O'Plenty

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

When I was in HS (east coast USA), it was mandatory to take a second language if you were preparing to attend college. Our choices were Spanish, French or Latin. Yes, Latin.

My kids had to learn a second language in high school.

 

I used to live in your town, Corona (owned a great old '69 Pete and hauled orange peel for the Sunkist plant at night while I was doing Navy duty in Long Beach) in the '70s and the population was changing rapidly even back then... I can imagine that Spanish would be pretty common there by now.

[+narcissa]

 

Ok sure the joke's on me, i'm sorry that my phone's keyboard is small and i don't take time to capitalize all proper nouns, boy my students would never let me live it down! lol

So to make it up to all forum readers, a free round of donuts, bacon, and beer for everyone!

 

IMHO When a country changes for what the seemingly standard is, to cater to others, ok it's fine. BUT (here we go- a can of worms) it makes it so that those who enter the country, by whatever means it seemingly easier for those to not learn the lanuage of the imigrated country. When i go to a foreign country, i either have to learn the lanuage or have a buddy that can. For the most part, other countries don't just cater to me or other foreigners, like the USA.

 

I don't really see why it's my business whether or not somebody else is learning one of our official languages. Most countries require fluency in an official or customary language before they'll grant citizenship. There's always going to be a population of newcomers who haven't gained fluency yet - putting both languages on menus and signs seems to me to be a bridge, rather than a barrier, to learning English.

 

I've lived in an officially bilingual country for my entire life. For ten years, I've lived in Ottawa, where both French and English are widely spoken. I learned French grammar in school, but most of my French vocabulary - particularly colloquial vocabulary - comes from contact with Francophone people, French signs, French menus, and French writing on packages.

 

Providing information in another language doesn't harm anybody. I find it a little odd that so many people are offended at the sight of another language. In addition to seeing French everywhere in Ottawa, many businesses in my neighbourhood post signs with Arabic, carry Arabic newspapers, and play Arabic television shows on their in-store tvs. I don't find this bothersome or offensive at all. There's a huge Arabic-speaking population here, and it makes sense that the local business accommodate that. If I was a business owner, and many of my potential customers spoke a language other than English, I would attempt to provide my services in the other language to expand my market. Capitalism, baby!

[tttedzeins]

I object to the use of Arabic numerals for cache coordinates. This is a global activity using computers; all the numbers should therefore be presented in binary.

Actually they are, but the computer displays it in Arabic numerals much like Google translate displays pages in whatever language you want whilst actually the pages are in binary.

[+J the Goat]

When I was in HS (east coast USA), it was mandatory to take a second language if you were preparing to attend college. Our choices were Spanish, French or Latin. Yes, Latin.

My kids had to learn a second language in high school.

 

I used to live in your town, Corona (owned a great old '69 Pete and hauled orange peel for the Sunkist plant at night while I was doing Navy duty in Long Beach) in the '70s and the population was changing rapidly even back then... I can imagine that Spanish would be pretty common there by now.

 

Common in Corona? Heck, over half of my town is spanish only/primarily, and I'm 8 hours north of LA. No language requirement here, although I am at least proficient in Spanish and got there in school.

 

A local elementary school has, for the past several years, been teaching a bilingual cirriculum. half in English and half in Spanish, or you can put your child through a total emersion program. I think it's great. Exposes them to different things.

[+Lennu]

....I would like to know the opinion of others...

 

I think it's a nice courtesy especially where there is the potential for a lot of non local finders who speak another language where English may be the language they have in common.

 

However I think it's a courtesy, and not a rule. That 95% of the caches in your country have the dual description is thinking ahead to the fact that the cache owners want finders to enjoy the caches.

 

Exacly! Finally! You are the FTS! First to share my point of view. :-)

[GOF and Bacall]

Having a translation on your cache page is a lovely gesture. I don't think anyone has denied that. However, expecting it is another matter.

[dwright1969]

Perhaps it should also be translated to Mandarin, French, Spanish, German, and Zulu?

 

No, only english

 

That doesn't make sense. It's a GLOBAL thing you said. There are more people speaking Chinese natively. There are as many people native Spanish as English.

 

Furthermore: the latest release notes mentioned stuff about internationalization, so soon the website will be multi-lingual as well.

 

Isn't it a bit self-centered to say that everything must include English?

 

How is it self centered when the original poster is Finish? You might find it interesting that all Chinese children learn English in school (If I remember right at grade 3). (And BTW I speak Chinese) The poster from Japan should remember that all public transportation in Japan uses both Japanese and English. English is as close as you will come to a global language in today's world. As a world traveler I have never been to a country where I could not get by with English. Even in Europe where there a many different laguages the common toungue is often English.

 

That all being said I don't see how you can enforce an English only rule.

 

Duane

[+currykev]

I'm not bothered about what language the cache is in. If going abroad I will only do TRAD's and I only really need the hint. That does conjure up some weird translations sometimes.

Does anyone know when Spanish will become the official US language.

[+Taoiseach]

How is it self centered when the original poster is Finish?

 

Several people have entertained the possibility that he is not a native Finn. The OP has yet to confirm or deny this.

 

Believe me, there are a lot of people around the world who expect people to have to learn their language. English has historically been one of the worst culprits of this, and in a country like Finland where the official languages are Finnish and Swedish, with Sami, Romani and Karelian as recognised regional languages, there is no need to force people to write everything in English.

 

I live on the border with Quebec, and I would not be capable of providing a French translation on my cache pages. If I wanted to hide a cache in Quebec, and for some reason Bill 101 and the Language Police made me put a French Translation on my cache page (Larger and on top, of course), I would have to convince somebody to translate my cache for me.

 

There is absolutely no reason to institute a guideline that alienates around 1/3 of the population in a country like Finland, and probably much more in many other countries. It might not be self-centred, but the suggestion certainly is disgustingly Anglo-centric.

[+redsox_mark]

 

From what I've gathered through some very quick research, is that classes in a 'Modern Foreign Language' is compulsory for students in Key Stage 3 (Ages 11-14), and must be offered to students in Key Stage 4 (Ages 14-16) who wish to take it. English has to be taught throughout, with the exception of Key Stage 1 (Ages 5-7) in Welsh Medium Schools. Note that the National Curriculum does not apply to Scotland.

 

I think that the National Curriculum for England, Wales and Northern Ireland might be designed to allow students to choose which 'Modern Foreign Language' they would like to take.

 

Where are The Blorenges et al when you need them?

 

This is correct. The languages offered vary, at my children's school, they have a choice of Spanish, French, or German. Their school also requires more than what the law requires; they need to take 2 modern languages from ages 11-13, and need to keep at least 1 until 16. (This will vary by school). They also offer Latin and Classical Greek, though these are "Classical Languages" not "Modern". My 14 year old is studying Spanish and French, my 16 year old initally did the same but has since dropped the French.

 

Mark

[+Anno Lynke]

It all comes down to the old expression... when in Rome, do as the Romans

If I go to France and try to cach I expect the page to be in french,

If I go to Mexico I expect it to be in spanish

The majority of the people finding a cach will be from that country

It should be convenient for them not someone visiting their country