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Religious crap in a cache


fly46
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So there's NO agenda too extreme for a GC trackable geocoin, then? A swastika, a KKK member with a hood, something which celebrates mass murder, genocide or ethnic cleansing, nothing too vile?

 

If I found a laminated bookmark with 'Only Allah is Perfect' on it, or 'Jesus loves you' or pictures or Hindi gods, prayers or a Dreidel toy, anything actually useful in any way to someone, then it's a swap item, and its not a problem. If my children would like to swap for that, great. If its paper and among a pile of business cards and other personal items, fine, leave alone unless the CO has posted a note to have it cleared out. Maybe the CO collects them, who knows.

 

If it were, say a pack of Tarot cards, rune stones or a dream catcher I would exclaim at how generous someone had been, pick myself off the floor and leave it for someone who would appreciate it more.

 

But if it is printed material which is in effect inciting hatred and has an agenda far beyond mainstream religions whether it be racial hatred, religious hatred, homophobia, or anything which is advertising organisations known for these agendas, I would remove it. Equally if its preying on vulnerable people, asking for money or suggesting you should leave home & go live with them and they'll take care of you and get you all you need. (Wouldn't that make your alarm bells ring?)

 

If that's unacceptable, I guess it won't hurt to just leave a toy or badge or trade up in some way, as we normally do. I count it as providing maintenance, along with drying out cache contents or adding a fresh log book, but even then it's nice to leave something for kids to enjoy.

 

How can we decide what is acceptable? Because we're human, because we know the difference between right and wrong, love and hate. It's up to the moral majority to do something when a small extreme minority loses its way.

 

I've never had to remove anything like that, I doubt I ever will, but on principle I reserve the right to remove extremely offensive material even if it doesn't break the guidelines, and I don't have a swap on me.

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Not angry. Just making a point. As for the spelling. I am sorry I am using my phone and keep hitting extra buttons.

 

Just so there?s no misunderstanding, it was just an observation. Not an attack. I knew someone would misunderstand.

 

in all fairness. you did say let the attacks come. or something to that effect. but again no personal attack was intended on my part.

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:surprise: Can we please remember that this is an open, family sport?

I don't get the family sport comment. Do you consider religion somehow anti-family?

 

Family's have been split over religion. People argue, fight and kill over religion. This forum is a one good example. Keep religion out of geocaching and save it for your worship day. Now let the attacks begin. :ph34r:

 

People argue, fight and kill over shoes. People have been killed over $5. People get killed over infidelity. People get killed by the state as punishment. People get killed fighting for freedom. What was your point again?

 

Oh yeah, keep shoes out of Geocaching. gotcha ;)

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So there's NO agenda too extreme for a GC trackable geocoin, then? A swastika, a KKK member with a hood, something which celebrates mass murder, genocide or ethnic cleansing, nothing too vile?

 

Just because there's no agenda guideline doesn't mean that trackables don't get locked because of hateful rhetoric.

 

Which is a different issue than finding somebody to mint geocoins with the examples you listed.

 

"No agenda guideline" does not translate to "open season for hate groups."

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So there's NO agenda too extreme for a GC trackable geocoin, then? A swastika, a KKK member with a hood, something which celebrates mass murder, genocide or ethnic cleansing, nothing too vile?

 

Just because there's no agenda guideline doesn't mean that trackables don't get locked because of hateful rhetoric.

 

Which is a different issue than finding somebody to mint geocoins with the examples you listed.

 

"No agenda guideline" does not translate to "open season for hate groups."

 

And you make an interesting point. It would be the trackable that get's locked, not the cache. If there's a "KKK" trackable or propaganda in my cache, the idea that it turns my cache into an agenda for the KKK is ridiculous at best.

 

I use to be an atheist and I remember it making me so mad in High School when the religious groups would put flyers up for their Bible studies. In response, I printed out a bunch of flyers relating to worshipping Satan (I like to make trouble if you haven't noticed). The school decided to allow it, because they didn't want a big fight over what should and shouldn't be allowed. Once the period was over and the hallways filled with people, those flyers were ripped down and thrown in the trash in a matter of seconds.

 

The point is, Geocachers are decent people and can self-police the swag. KKK swag or coins wouldn't survive very long.

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In my own mind, reading the Guidelines, I think the point has been established regarding swag and its perceived "agenda". I think it has been clearly pointed out that there is a difference in "Cache listings with an agenda" and people "using" your cache to promote their agenda. Guess I could be considered simple minded, because if it is not there, written in black and white, you can spend all the time you like trying to convince me what the "intended meaning" or "spirit" of the words are. Its still is not there. If Groundspeak intended for it to be there, I have no doubt they would have acted on those intentions, and put it there. Anthing else is just speculation. And there seems to be plenty of that.

 

Regarding the philosophical debate, it has and always will be pointless. If you believe the story (and I am not ashamed to say I do) we received the "knowledge of good an evil". While I accept that some do not believe as I do, how we received it ,we all have it. Never... even in the most radical of beliefs, has it ever been mentioned you were automatically assigned one or the other. It always has, and always will be, a choice. This same debate point could be applied in a non-believing sense. Don't believe in God/Allah/Buddha/insert deity of your choice...? You still know right from wrong. But even that statement is fuel for debate isn't it? What I "know" is wrong, you might not feel is wrong. Again, its all about choice. And what argument can you present that the other persons "choice" (whether right or wrong in your eyes) is not their choice? You can argue their choice is "wrong" compared to yours, but who decides ultimately which is correct?

 

As I said.... pointless.

 

 

Please note that I have attempted to keep statements regarding my personal Religious beliefs to a minimum, out of respect for others who don't believe as I do, in an effort to not promote any "agenda", and in keeping within the Forum Guidelines.

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Let me reiterate that I'm not talking about the philosophic aspects of this (e.g, should people leave agenda swag/trackables? If so, what agendas are acceptable and which ones aren't? Is it possible to make a distinction?

 

This reminds me of the early days of Usenet, when commercial messages were beginning to show up in what had previously been a totally non-commercial medium.

 

As was mentioned in another thread, "SPAM" was defined as being anything that was repeated over and over again. This definition of spam was carefully worked out, precisely to avoid the idea of having anyone become the arbiter of what was or wasn't "acceptable speech."

 

I think swag could benefit from the same sort of thinking. A single tract in a cache is reasonably a trade item; some people won't like it, but someone else might. (I would take a Jack Chick tract in a heartbeat, and leave a nice trade item in its place. The author of those tracts thinks I am destined for Hell, but I know I'm not, and I find his rantings hysterically funny.) On the other hand, if someone is visiting every cache in town and leaving a dozen identical tracts in each one, it becomes spam. It doesn't matter if the tract is urging the reader to become a Jehova's Witness, or visit Joe's car wash. One of either might be a trade item and should be left for those who might appreciate it; dozens of them are spam.

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To expand on NeecesandNephews' post, tracts alone are useless. Tracts are only useful when actually talking to someone. Good tracts can help to clarify points or serve as a reminder of what you discussed with someone. Bad ones aren't useful, ever, and are probably responsible for the start of this thread.

 

Just leaving them lying around in random places only serves to cause angst no matter what kind they are.

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Let me reiterate that I'm not talking about the philosophic aspects of this (e.g, should people leave agenda swag/trackables? If so, what agendas are acceptable and which ones aren't? Is it possible to make a distinction?

 

This reminds me of the early days of Usenet, when commercial messages were beginning to show up in what had previously been a totally non-commercial medium.

 

As was mentioned in another thread, "SPAM" was defined as being anything that was repeated over and over again. This definition of spam was carefully worked out, precisely to avoid the idea of having anyone become the arbiter of what was or wasn't "acceptable speech."

 

I think swag could benefit from the same sort of thinking. A single tract in a cache is reasonably a trade item; some people won't like it, but someone else might. (I would take a Jack Chick tract in a heartbeat, and leave a nice trade item in its place. The author of those tracts thinks I am destined for Hell, but I know I'm not, and I find his rantings hysterically funny.) On the other hand, if someone is visiting every cache in town and leaving a dozen identical tracts in each one, it becomes spam. It doesn't matter if the tract is urging the reader to become a Jehova's Witness, or visit Joe's car wash. One of either might be a trade item and should be left for those who might appreciate it; dozens of them are spam.

GeoGeebee..Yesterday you made a comment of me being FORCED to read or handle the papers.And the more I thaught about your comment the more it made sense.I can always just set the material aside and do my thing,sign,trade ect.And just put it back and move on.I can just not let it bother me.Its not like I will burst into flames if I see one.And the kids arent going to be all confused.I can just let it be.

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If there is only a single tract in the cache, so what. Taking it out of the cache because you want to protect others from it, is just as bad as the people that put it in there to try protect you from the devil. :surprise:

 

Some claim that Jesus was the devil. They claim that reason that he was speared on his side when he was crucified was because that is where the reputed "mark of Cain" birthmark was. :o Perhaps in the same place where Adam's rib was taken to make Eve... I suppose the plan was to save man and rid him of evil, by having the devil represent mankind, and then to purify him by crucifying him. However since they are now putting bible verses on guns to make murder seem holy, it really does not seem to be working.. ;)

 

I'd leave those tracts alone, you never know what cult you'd be messing with. :ph34r:

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GeoGeebee..Yesterday you made a comment of me being FORCED to read or handle the papers.And the more I thaught about your comment the more it made sense.I can always just set the material aside and do my thing,sign,trade ect.And just put it back and move on.I can just not let it bother me.Its not like I will burst into flames if I see one.And the kids arent going to be all confused.I can just let it be.

Yes! Another convert to living a stress-free life! :surprise:

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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If it was something like god loves you I would not really care, sure I am agnostic but im not anti- faith. But garbage like chick tracts I would CITO. Those things are disturbing. I'd rather people come to a faith because it betters them as a person rather than just because they are strong-armed by the fear of hell.

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GeoGeebee..Yesterday you made a comment of me being FORCED to read or handle the papers.And the more I thaught about your comment the more it made sense.I can always just set the material aside and do my thing,sign,trade ect.And just put it back and move on.I can just not let it bother me.Its not like I will burst into flames if I see one.And the kids arent going to be all confused.I can just let it be.

Yes! Another convert to living a stress-free life! :surprise:

I kinda feel good now..SERENITY NOW!! SERENITY NOW!!

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If it was something like god loves you I would not really care, sure I am agnostic but im not anti- faith. But garbage like chick tracts I would CITO. Those things are disturbing. I'd rather people come to a faith because it betters them as a person rather than just because they are strong-armed by the fear of hell.

 

Danny that reminds me of the way I once heard someone describe their motivation for believing as they did;

 

I would rather spend my life believing in God, and in the end, find out He doesn't exist...

 

Than spend my life believing He doesn't exist, and in the end, find out He does!!

 

edit-typo

Edited by NeecesandNephews
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In my own mind, reading the Guidelines, ... if it is not there, written in black and white, you can spend all the time you like trying to convince me what the "intended meaning" or "spirit" of the words are. Its still is not there. If Groundspeak intended for it to be there, I have no doubt they would have acted on those intentions, and put it there. Anthing else is just speculation. And there seems to be plenty of that.

I can agree to that.

 

Again, its all about choice. And what argument can you present that the other persons "choice" (whether right or wrong in your eyes) is not their choice? You can argue their choice is "wrong" compared to yours, but who decides ultimately which is correct?

I can agree to that too.

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Thank you Toz, for giving me a smile on an otherwise dull day. I had to laugh when I scrolled down the page, reading , and anticipating a "however...", not finding one, and realizing what I had just done!

 

I am confident you have noticed my "attitude" has evolved since the first unintentional "intolerance" I displayed in my first thread!

 

I still believe "a world without rules is chaos", but have come to the realization, reading these threads, that a world with rules does not guarantee the absence of chaos. In fact... its seems just the oposite is true!!

 

edit to add- message received, my friend! :surprise:

Edited by NeecesandNephews
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Using a geocache to promote an agenda is against the guidelines.

Probably true, as regards to cache pages. Mostly irrelevent when it comes to swag though.

 

I've read through this entire train-wreck, and all I got was this:

1) Bacon flavoured beer.

2) Something about a pony biting a donut, or a donut biting a pony, or something.

3) Oh yeah, and no-one agrees on religion. News at 11...

The "Most Comprehensive Assessment Of A Thread Award" goes to... (envelope please) ... Tiiiim! ;)

 

Finally the perfect guaranteed to offend everyone swag:...

I thought the ultimate offend everyone swag was my "Nuke A Gay Whale For Jesus" wooden nickle? :surprise::o:P

 

Find out what church is propogating these tracts and go to their services.

In the middle of a sermon stand up and loudly start talking about Geocaching

It may not get the point across but it can be fun to get bounced from a church.

I'm thinking Flashmob! :anicute::ph34r:

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:ph34r: Okay, so I just did cache maintenance on one of my caches. Opened the container to find the usual degredation of stuff - you know, the assortment of plastic crap that only a kid could love. ;) Whatever, I expect that. So I pulled everything out, and I was checking all the paper stuff to see what needed trashed out, since there was a little dampness in the container (it sat under 3 feet of snow for 3 months).

 

And, then I found it. Slightly larger than my signature business card was this paper religious tract type of a thing.

 

SERIOUSLY????????????????????????????????????????

 

You know, caching is a family sport and it's played all over the world by all different types of people. I want this to be a fun hobby. But stuff like that really bothers me. Like, really, really, really.

 

I'm cool with people who want to put symbols on their signature items or geo coins. I'm even cool with people who want to use a religious item as swag - and by that I'm talking, mini buddha, a rosary, whatever.

 

But when you're leaving cutesy paper goods to convert people to your beliefs, I think that crosses a line. I don't want the business card for your pastor, mapquest directions to your sinagogue, coordinants to your high holy tree. We get enough religion salesmen door to door, we don't need them in our caches, too.

 

The same goes for politics. I once found a paper that said "following [politician] is like being in the special olympics" aside from that being extremely degrading and rude on all sides, it's another thing that doesn't have a place in a geocache.

 

:surprise: Can we please remember that this is an open, family sport?

 

Troll

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Those of you that keep throwing trackables into the discussion are only contributing to the derailment of the thread via reductio ad absurdum- which is a big Latin phrase that basically means taking the opposing argument to an irrational conclusion and then arguing against that conclusion.

 

Reductio ad absurdum is a method by which you prove a claim false by showing that the claim logically follows to an irrational situation.

 

For example, suppose you agree that to steal is to "take the property of another without permission," and that to steal is always wrong. Then you tell me that you think government support of the arts is morally okay. I can, by reductio ad absurdum, point out that this involves taking property without the owner's permission. After all, the taxes used for this purpose are not taken with permission. Many of us only pay under threat of imprisonment.

 

(From "Reductio Ad Absurdum - Use With Caution")

 

So you are totally correct in that those of us (specifically, me) who are bringing up trackables are using reductio ab adsurdum to disprove narcissa's contention that the guidelines infer that the contents of a cache can somehow confer an agenda to the cache. But it is not correct to imply that the use of this argument is a derail (or otherwise irrelavant to the discussion).

 

Trackables are valid cache contents, in that any cache may contain them. They fall under the same cache content guidelines as other cache contents (a TB tag attached to, say, a knife or a gun or a bag of beef jerky would not be acceptable). The fact that trackables may, and often do, support agendas points towards Groundspeak's tolerance for Things in Caches that have agendas (and undermine the argument that a cache's contents can, per the guidelines, confer an agenda to the cache).

 

But I could be wrong. Maybe swag is totally different, in Groundspeak's eyes, from trackable items. Evidence for this would be examples of caches that were disabled, archived, or threatened with same by Groundspeak because they contained agenda-related swag (specifically, religious swag). I'd be absolutely willing to concede the point if that evidence could be provided here.

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According to Groundspeak guidelines....

We're not allowed to have commercial caches that tell you to support a specific business.

We're not allowed to have caches that promote a special charity.

 

Why are we allowed to promote our religions?

Those guidelines do not now nor have they ever applied to swag.

 

Untrue. See Keystone's comments in the "Naughty Swag" thread for clarification.

 

No - I think you misunderstood. The above quoted guidelines for promotion of commercial and charity caches - DOES NOT apply to swag --- or I'm going to have to start pulling everything with a logo on it out of caches. Keystone's post had nothing to do with those guidelines - just the prohibited items guidelines. Religous tracts are not on the list - although I suppose somebody might report the existence of those items to a reviewer and claim they were "questionable" .

 

Cache Contents

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, fireworks, ammo, lighters, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws. Geocaching is a family activity and cache contents should be suitable for all ages.

 

Food items are always a bad idea. Animals have better noses than humans, and in some cases caches have been chewed through and destroyed because food items (or items that smell like food) are in the cache. Even the presence of mint flavored dental floss has led to destruction of one cache.

 

If the original cache contents list any of the above items or other questionable items, or if a cache is reported to have the questionable items, the cache may be disabled, and the owner of the cache will be contacted and asked to remove the questionable items before the cache is enabled.

 

It's the "or other questionable items" that is key. Using a cache to promote a religious agenda is expressly prohibited by the guidelines. Putting religious items in a cache *is* using a cache to promote a religious agenda.

In that case...I better quit placing my sig cards in the cache...I may be promoting myself :ph34r:

:surprise:;)

 

So...I guess that would also go with Baseball Cards...McToys...so on and so forth...

 

Besides...what about commercial-like TB's...last I knew the powers that be have a "live and let live" mentality towards those things (with common sense in mind)...are you going to throw away those if you find a religious tb???

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Troll

Name calling is unacceptable.

Here are some things to keep in mind when posting:

 

1. Forum courtesy: Please treat Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, fellow community members, and guests on these boards with courtesy and respect. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they should be treated fairly.

 

3. Personal attacks and inflammatory behavior will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad. General attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

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It always bugs me a lot too to even find religious themed geotokens or business cards. Religion has no place in geocaching; one can go out and do it for enjoyment and recreation, but it shouldn't be a bilboard for your faith.

I find it interesting too that I've really only ever seen one religion proselytized in caches…

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It always bugs me a lot too to even find religious themed geotokens or business cards. Religion has no place in geocaching; one can go out and do it for enjoyment and recreation, but it shouldn't be a bilboard for your faith.

I find it interesting too that I've really only ever seen one religion proselytized in caches…

 

meh. It's what happens when you go outside, people are just being who they are. When you find something that doesn't seem quite right to you, trade it out.

 

Chances are pretty good you are not going to find much of anything in a cache.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Personally I feel like my beliefs (or rather, complete and total lack thereof) are strong enough to withstand any crumpled pieces of paper I might find in an ammo can in the woods. But apparently lots of people aren't. :surprise:

 

I also agree with the person who said above they'd trade for Chick tracts because they find them hilarious despite not believing a word of it, but I've yet to find one in my local area up north. Visiting my relatives in the South, however, you find something along those lines in pretty much every cache.

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Visiting my relatives in the South, however, you find something along those lines in pretty much every cache.

 

I live in the deep south and I rarely come across them.

 

Well! I guess those church going cachers aren't visiting your area. Hmmm, I wonder if that's a good or bad thing. :surprise:

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So you are totally correct in that those of us (specifically, me) who are bringing up trackables are using reductio ab adsurdum to disprove narcissa's contention that the guidelines infer that the contents of a cache can somehow confer an agenda to the cache. But it is not correct to imply that the use of this argument is a derail (or otherwise irrelevant to the discussion).

 

Okay, here's where I'm saying the derailment is happening (and thus contributing to the derailment by explaining myself, yay me. Hey, look I'm getting all verbose.)

 

Narcissa's has said that her position hinges on her interpretation of the agenda guidelines as they apply to caches. She believes (right or wrong) that the agenda guideline includes physical cache contents. She has also said, more than once, that she acknowledges the lack of agenda guidelines in regards to trackables. She's not trying to impose any agenda guidelines on trackables. Logically, since trackables travel through caches she is not including trackables (agenda or not) in her belief (right or wrong) that physical contents fall under the cache agenda guidelines.

 

You have made a very intelligent and well-spoken post. There are a few others that have simply chimed in with "butwaddbout trackables, huh? Well? Huh? JEEEP!!!! JEEEEEEEEP!!!! DIABETES!!!!!!" as some sort of insurmountable proof and ultimate nullifier against narcissa's point of view (right or wrong). In my mind, that is what I think is the crux of the derailification. The point was brought up, addressed by the opinion holder- yet it pops up again.

 

But I could be wrong. Maybe swag is totally different, in Groundspeak's eyes, from trackable items. Evidence for this would be examples of caches that were disabled, archived, or threatened with same by Groundspeak because they contained agenda-related swag (specifically, religious swag). I'd be absolutely willing to concede the point if that evidence could be provided here.

 

The trackable guidelines were recently clarified in regards to knives being attached to Travel Bugs. So while Groundspeak has been pretty clear about trackable agendas, they have also been pretty clear about some trackables being rendered "inappropriate" due to safety concerns too. So swag is different from trackables in once sense, but in another not so much.

 

But really, this could all be taken care of if everybody just followed some really simple and basic advice:

 

When you find something that doesn't seem quite right to you, trade it out.

 

Now, back to work...

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Personally I feel like my beliefs (or rather, complete and total lack thereof) are strong enough to withstand any crumpled pieces of paper I might find in an ammo can in the woods. But apparently lots of people aren't. :smile:

 

I also agree with the person who said above they'd trade for Chick tracts because they find them hilarious despite not believing a word of it, but I've yet to find one in my local area up north. Visiting my relatives in the South, however, you find something along those lines in pretty much every cache.

I call bullhonkery on the bolded part. In seven years I've found thousands of caches in every southern state (28 states, actually) and never seen a single one. If not for this forum I would never have even heard of them.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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In my own mind, reading the Guidelines, I think the point has been established regarding swag and its perceived "agenda". I think it has been clearly pointed out that there is a difference in "Cache listings with an agenda" and people "using" your cache to promote their agenda. Guess I could be considered simple minded, because if it is not there, written in black and white, you can spend all the time you like trying to convince me what the "intended meaning" or "spirit" of the words are. Its still is not there. If Groundspeak intended for it to be there, I have no doubt they would have acted on those intentions, and put it there. Anthing else is just speculation. And there seems to be plenty of that.

 

Regarding the philosophical debate, it has and always will be pointless. If you believe the story (and I am not ashamed to say I do) we received the "knowledge of good an evil". While I accept that some do not believe as I do, how we received it ,we all have it. Never... even in the most radical of beliefs, has it ever been mentioned you were automatically assigned one or the other. It always has, and always will be, a choice. This same debate point could be applied in a non-believing sense. Don't believe in God/Allah/Buddha/insert deity of your choice...? You still know right from wrong. But even that statement is fuel for debate isn't it? What I "know" is wrong, you might not feel is wrong. Again, its all about choice. And what argument can you present that the other persons "choice" (whether right or wrong in your eyes) is not their choice? You can argue their choice is "wrong" compared to yours, but who decides ultimately which is correct?

 

As I said.... pointless.

 

 

Please note that I have attempted to keep statements regarding my personal Religious beliefs to a minimum, out of respect for others who don't believe as I do, in an effort to not promote any "agenda", and in keeping within the Forum Guidelines.

 

and you have my respect for doing that, for what it is worth.

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So swag is different from trackables in once sense, but in another not so much.

Wasn't there a discussion a while back about if trackables were considered trade items, specifically when it came to Travel Bug Hotels? I seem to remember it being made crystal clear at that time that trackables were the property of the owner, were intended to be moved, and therefore were not considered a trade item or as "swag".

 

However, it's still quite obvious to me that trade items CAN promote an agenda, but a the cache itself cannot. I'm very confused why reviewers haven't stepped into this conversation to nail that down one way or the other. That should stop a lot of the insanity.

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So swag is different from trackables in once sense, but in another not so much.

Wasn't there a discussion a while back about if trackables were considered trade items, specifically when it came to Travel Bug Hotels? I seem to remember it being made crystal clear at that time that trackables were the property of the owner, were intended to be moved, and therefore were not considered a trade item or as "swag".

 

However, it's still quite obvious to me that trade items CAN promote an agenda, but a the cache itself cannot. I'm very confused why reviewers haven't stepped into this conversation to nail that down one way or the other. That should stop a lot of the insanity.

You are right on all points - trackables are not trade items and can have an agenda, caches cannot have an agenda but the contents of them can.

 

As far as a Reviewer's verification of that see Keystone's post(s?) earlier in this thread.

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TAR, while Keystones post may have been referenced in this thread, I believe the posts in question actually appeared in the "Naughty Swag" thread as it seemed to deteriorate into this same discussion.

 

He did however, when directly asked, give his response to what he would do in the situation.

 

Some will say that he speaks for TPTB, some will say he speaks only for himself, but it was refreshing to see an answer.

 

As far as the "trauma" someone might experience by "being forced to read" Religious material in a cache, I have to ask any person making such claim if they choose their route to work, or the store, or to cache, to avoid reading a Church sign?? There are a couple Churches in our town that post weekly "funnies" or wordplays on their announcement sign. I go out of my way when I am in the neighborhood to go by and check out what they say this week.

 

As far as "offensive" we all choose not only "what" is offensive to us, but "how offended" we are by it.

 

As a Catholic, I could very easily find many posts, and pictures in this very thread that "offended" me. But I chose not to. Why? Well I felt they were posted in humor. While I dont find making fun of my Church to be at all ... well... funny, I recognize other people do.

 

I could have gone on a great frothing, flaming, tirade against them, but were they trying to undermine my beliefs? NO. Do I think they were trying to undermine the Church? NO. Do I think they are heathen devil-worshipers, out to undermine Christianity in general? Hardly.

 

I made a choice. I chose to not be offended. Someone else may choose differently. The key word here is "choice".

 

edit to add- I didn't mean for that to seem like I was correcting T.A.R., just directing readers to the info!!!

Edited by NeecesandNephews
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TAR, while Keystones post may have been referenced in this thread, I believe the posts in question actually appeared in the "Naughty Swag" thread as it seemed to deteriorate into this same discussion.

 

He did however, when directly asked, give his response to what he would do in the situation.

 

Some will say that he speaks for TPTB, some will say he speaks only for himself, but it was refreshing to see an answer.

...

 

edit to add- I didn't mean for that to seem like I was correcting T.A.R., just directing readers to the info!!!

No problem, I often need correcting, or so says my wife! :)

 

As far as Keystone's posts, I take his opinion as geocaching gospel, as it were. Count on it - he is plugged in. :smile:

 

I don't think that anyone outside of the owner's of Groundspeak (and I have a completely unsubstantiated suspicion that he may be one) and Mtn-Man can speak with more authority than he.

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The mods must look at this topic and shake their head.

 

After reading the entire thing I can only laugh. Some of the posts I can only shake my head at.

 

This whole thread... :):smile: people will be people I guess.

 

 

 

Well, if the thread was titled "Holy crap in a cache"?, it probably would have turned out a bit different.. :laughing:

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I'm very confused why reviewers haven't stepped into this conversation to nail that down one way or the other. That should stop a lot of the insanity.

Most reviewers skip threads like this. It is more fun to publish new caches, and to go out and find them.

 

I am a forum moderator so I am rather obligated to keep tabs on threads like this. I try to limit my participation since I am also an evangelical Christian. Although I don't leave religious trade items in caches, they are the only swag that I will ever trade for.

 

I can, however, speak without bias as to what the listing guidelines say, and about historic statistics. In that regard, I'd like to say that Jackalgirl's posts to this thread have been excellent. The analysis is dead-on accurate from this reviewer's perspective.

 

In seven years of reviewing caches and discussing them with other reviewers, I am not aware of a single instance where a cache has been disabled or archived because a visitor to the cache left religious trade items in it. I am, however, aware of examples where caches have been disabled because a visitor to the cache left trade items described in the "Cache Contents" section of the listing guidelines.

 

I hope you are no longer confused, Mushtang. :smile:

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However, it's still quite obvious to me that trade items CAN promote an agenda, but a the cache itself cannot. I'm very confused why reviewers haven't stepped into this conversation to nail that down one way or the other. That should stop a lot of the insanity.

It won't stop the insanity. This has been discussed many times before. Some of the people bickering have participated in some of these past discussions. I don't know how many times the answer has to be repeated.

 

The cache cannot promote an agenda. The cache listing guidelines address this. Groundspeak has no control over trade items after the cache is listed. The community must police itself. If you see an item you know or feel it is questionable, then trade something for it. I've done that. Simple.

 

Travel bugs can have an agenda, as long as it isn't profanity laced or has pornographic images, etc. on the TBug page and things like that. If you want to send out a TBug that promotes something you feel strongly about, then do it. Keep it G-Rated. You will have no issues from Groundspeak from what I know.

 

The mods must look at this topic and shake their head.

 

After reading the entire thing I can only laugh. Some of the posts I can only shake my head at.

 

This whole thread... :):smile: people will be people I guess.

I'm not really laughing, but I am shaking my head too. That's why I've put my foot down.

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