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Religious crap in a cache


fly46
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Don't fault people for trying to do the last thing that Jesus commanded his disciples to do.

They can be faulted for doing it where they are expressly told not to. Like geocaches.

I'd like to see that in writing. I know I am a newbie of sorts but I've never heard that one before. It sounds like you have your own ideas about guidelines.

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Where in here does it say anything about you being protected from religion? I have a right to express my religion through speech or writing. How did it ever happen that people feel they can silence those that they disagree with? And why is it always those "progressive, open-minded" folks that seem to be the worst at it.

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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Don't fault people for trying to do the last thing that Jesus commanded his disciples to do.

 

 

They can be faulted for doing it where they are expressly told not to. Like geocaches.

 

:) Groundspeak doesn't prohibit religious swag. I think that point has been made thousands of times. You just don't seem to get it.

 

Now, about that donut...

I want a pony.

 

If I had a pony people would give me donuts to let them pet him.

 

And a blue bow.

 

I want a pony with a blue bow so people will give me donuts.

 

I'll see what I can do... but you have to promise to share the donuts.

Touch my donuts and my pony will bite you.

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Being a God fearing Baptist. I think that tracts are a waste of time. People never recieve them well. I only hand them out when asked. Some of us think that if we can hand out or place enough of these we may win another soul. Not true, one must enter the marketplace of ideas in conversation not with tracts. Caches are not a place to leave this type of material. You only succeed in making more stuff to throw out.

 

Whether or not they are a waste of time is not the issue here. Whether or not they violate the guidelines is what is at issue here. For what it's worth, I agree with you that they are a waste of time, but once you start allowing allowing someone filled with hatred to control what you can and can't do, more will come along to push even harder.

 

Can you imagine Groundspeak saying, "Religious material is not allowed in caches"... Besides not being their call to make, because they don't own the containers nor do they own Geocaching, it would open a can of worms. They'd have to make a list of items that were "Allowable", because so many things would not be allowed.

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Hey, I just found this fun thread :D

 

 

As Keystone said in the other cache, it doesn't come to that very much because sensible cachers will just remove the inappropriate items.

We need more of those in the game.

 

:)

 

More sensible cachers?

 

Or more inappropriate items?

 

Or more sensible cachers in inappropriate items?

 

Or more sensible cachers removing the inappropriate items they're in?

 

 

Yep, I'm getting into the swing of this topic now!

 

*MrsB goes off to work up a good head of angstness*

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Don't fault people for trying to do the last thing that Jesus commanded his disciples to do.

 

 

They can be faulted for doing it where they are expressly told not to. Like geocaches.

 

:) Groundspeak doesn't prohibit religious swag. I think that point has been made thousands of times. You just don't seem to get it.

 

Now, about that donut...

I want a pony.

 

If I had a pony people would give me donuts to let them pet him.

 

And a blue bow.

 

I want a pony with a blue bow so people will give me donuts.

 

I'll see what I can do... but you have to promise to share the donuts.

 

Donuts? I thought one had to be a plantinum member before donuts came into play!

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It's the "or other questionable items" that is key. Using a cache to promote a religious agenda is expressly prohibited by the guidelines. Putting religious items in a cache *is* using a cache to promote a religious agenda.
They can be faulted for doing it where they are expressly told not to. Like geocaches.

I think you need to look up what "expressly" means. Knives and explosives are expressly prohibited. They're specifically named in the list. Pointing to the phrase "other questionable items" and saying that it expressly prohibits anything is ridiculous.

 

The cache owner using the cache itself to promote an agenda IS expressly prohibited. A cacher using a cache container to place trade items that promote an agenda is NOT prohibited.

 

This has been discussed over and over in the past, and religious material as a trade item is most definitely allowed by the guidelines.

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Better cover up, your agenda is showing again.

 

Better cover up, your bizarre personal vendetta is showing again.

 

No personal vendetta... Just tired of people like you trying to control what I do because of your own personal fears and prejudices.

 

If you were an atheist and created a cool little spaghetti monster personal trade item that you put into caches, how would you feel if I deemed your item to be offensive because it conflicted with my personal worldview and removed it from any cache I came across?

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Don't fault people for trying to do the last thing that Jesus commanded his disciples to do.

 

 

They can be faulted for doing it where they are expressly told not to. Like geocaches.

 

:) Groundspeak doesn't prohibit religious swag. I think that point has been made thousands of times. You just don't seem to get it.

 

Now, about that donut...

I want a pony.

 

If I had a pony people would give me donuts to let them pet him.

 

And a blue bow.

 

I want a pony with a blue bow so people will give me donuts.

 

I'll see what I can do... but you have to promise to share the donuts.

 

Donuts? I thought one had to be a plantinum member before donuts came into play!

 

Shhhh! Don't tell the masses!

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once you start allowing allowing someone filled with hatred

 

I've mentioned this already, but you're attributing "hatred" where it doesn't exist.

 

I am against anyone using geocaches to promote any kind of religious, anti-religious, political, charitable, or commercial agendas.

 

As I stated in the other thread, I will often fight HARDER when it's an agenda I agree with, because I don't want to see something I support being tainted. Using geocaching to promote an agenda is a surefire way to annoy people and turn them against something.

 

I see religious items far more often than I see other inappropriate items, so that's why it was the thing I mentioned originally. If Green Party literature or Primerica life insurance ads were the things I saw most, I would have mentioned them instead.

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If you were an atheist and created a cool little spaghetti monster personal trade item that you put into caches, how would you feel if I deemed your item to be offensive because it conflicted with my personal worldview and removed it from any cache I came across?

 

I am an atheist, and I don't put atheism-related materials or objects into caches because I don't believe in using geocaches to impose my worldview on others. If I noticed atheism materials in a cache, I would likely remove them.

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:D Okay, so I just did cache maintenance on one of my caches. Opened the container to find the usual degredation of stuff - you know, the assortment of plastic crap that only a kid could love. :laughing: Whatever, I expect that. So I pulled everything out, and I was checking all the paper stuff to see what needed trashed out, since there was a little dampness in the container (it sat under 3 feet of snow for 3 months).

 

And, then I found it. Slightly larger than my signature business card was this paper religious tract type of a thing.

 

SERIOUSLY????????????????????????????????????????

 

You know, caching is a family sport and it's played all over the world by all different types of people. I want this to be a fun hobby. But stuff like that really bothers me. Like, really, really, really.

 

I'm cool with people who want to put symbols on their signature items or geo coins. I'm even cool with people who want to use a religious item as swag - and by that I'm talking, mini buddha, a rosary, whatever.

 

But when you're leaving cutesy paper goods to convert people to your beliefs, I think that crosses a line. I don't want the business card for your pastor, mapquest directions to your sinagogue, coordinants to your high holy tree. We get enough religion salesmen door to door, we don't need them in our caches, too.

 

The same goes for politics. I once found a paper that said "following [politician] is like being in the special olympics" aside from that being extremely degrading and rude on all sides, it's another thing that doesn't have a place in a geocache.

 

:) Can we please remember that this is an open, family sport?

 

Here's what you do.

 

Find out what church is propogating these tracts and go to their services. In the middle of a sermon stand up and loudly start talking about Geocaching (or whatever tickes your fancy).

It may not get the point across but it can be fun to get bounced from a church.

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If you were an atheist and created a cool little spaghetti monster personal trade item that you put into caches, how would you feel if I deemed your item to be offensive because it conflicted with my personal worldview and removed it from any cache I came across?

 

I am an atheist, and I don't put atheism-related materials or objects into caches because I don't believe in using geocaches to impose my worldview on others. If I noticed atheism materials in a cache, I would likely remove them.

 

Okay, but please don't remove the tracts extolling the virtues of the Cult of the Blue Bow. That would just be going too far...

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Hey, I just found this fun thread :D

 

 

As Keystone said in the other cache, it doesn't come to that very much because sensible cachers will just remove the inappropriate items.

We need more of those in the game.

 

:)

 

More sensible cachers?

 

Or more inappropriate items?

 

Or more sensible cachers in inappropriate items?

 

Or more sensible cachers removing the inappropriate items they're in?

 

 

Yep, I'm getting into the swing of this topic now!

 

*MrsB goes off to work up a good head of angstness*

 

You mean to say, when you find an inappropriate item, its not part of the game to have to wear it for the rest of the day/ night? But where's the fun?

 

OK,I'll get my coat (I'm off to the naughty thread where I belong.)

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If you were an atheist and created a cool little spaghetti monster personal trade item that you put into caches, how would you feel if I deemed your item to be offensive because it conflicted with my personal worldview and removed it from any cache I came across?

 

I am an atheist, and I don't put atheism-related materials or objects into caches because I don't believe in using geocaches to impose my worldview on others. If I noticed atheism materials in a cache, I would likely remove them.

 

But you don't mind imposing your worldview here in the forums, do you? The "other" topic was fun and light until you decided to show up and inject your view on religion into the discussion. Perhaps you should start taking your own advice. Next time you see a topic that you feel the need to hijack, just remember...

 

Now, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum,

What might be right for you, may not be right for some.

A man is born, he's a man of means.

Then along come two, they got nothing but their jeans.

 

But they got, Diff'rent Strokes.

It takes, Diff'rent Strokes.

It takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.

 

Everybody's got a special kind of story

EVerybody finds a way to shine,

It don't matter that you got not alot

So what,

They'll have theirs, and you'll have yours, and I'll have mine.

And together we'll be fine.....

 

Because it takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.

Yes it does!

It takes, Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.

Edited by ReadyOrNot
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Honestly, man. I'm Jewish, and I've come across some Chick tracts, Virgin Marys, and similar things in caches. Maybe it's because I'm not very into trading, but I didn't even think twice about it. I shook my head, chuckled, and once made a humorous (to me) comment on the log, but that's it.

 

Promotion of religion is annoying, but hatred against the promotion - by one group or by all - never leads to anything good. I understand your objection, but I don't think it's worth getting that upset over.

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But you don't mind imposing your worldview here in the forums, do you? The "other" topic was fun and light until you decided to show up and inject your view on religion into the discussion. Perhaps you should start taking your own advice. Next time you see a topic that you feel the need to hijack, just remember...

 

 

I injected my opinion on religious items in caches, not my opinion on religion. I'm sorry you interpreted that as an attack on religion itself. It wasn't. The subject of my original comment was religious items, because that's what I see in caches.

 

My views on religion itself are pretty unremarkable and likely wouldn't have sparked as much outrage as my views on agenda-promoting objects in caches.

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Where in here does it say anything about you being protected from religion? I have a right to express my religion through speech or writing. How did it ever happen that people feel they can silence those that they disagree with? And why is it always those "progressive, open-minded" folks that seem to be the worst at it.

 

Has anybody self-identified in the thread as progressive and open minded?

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But you don't mind imposing your worldview here in the forums, do you? The "other" topic was fun and light until you decided to show up and inject your view on religion into the discussion. Perhaps you should start taking your own advice. Next time you see a topic that you feel the need to hijack, just remember...

 

 

I injected my opinion on religious items in caches, not my opinion on religion. I'm sorry you interpreted that as an attack on religion itself. It wasn't. The subject of my original comment was religious items, because that's what I see in caches.

 

My views on religion itself are pretty unremarkable and likely wouldn't have sparked as much outrage as my views on agenda-promoting objects in caches.

 

And you are entitled to not like whatever you want.. But you are plain "WRONG" when you say it's a violation of the guidelines. How do you feel about caches that are placed on church property but do not have any religious items in them?

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Has anybody self-identified in the thread as progressive and open minded?

 

I don't think so.

 

R.O.N. felt that religion was being attacked, and then assumed that if religion was under attack, it must be under attack by open-minded progressives.

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Where in here does it say anything about you being protected from religion? I have a right to express my religion through speech or writing. How did it ever happen that people feel they can silence those that they disagree with? And why is it always those "progressive, open-minded" folks that seem to be the worst at it.

 

Has anybody self-identified in the thread as progressive and open minded?

 

It's been my experience that those professing to be the open-minded, progressive thinkers are usually the ones that are first in line to silence speech when they disagree with it...

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And you are entitled to not like whatever you want.. But you are plain "WRONG" when you say it's a violation of the guidelines. How do you feel about caches that are placed on church property but do not have any religious items in them?

 

As long as they have permission to place the cache there and the cache description text doesn't promote or disparage a religion, I don't have a problem with that.

 

My partner (in life, crime, and geocaching) just published GC209Y8. I recognize religion as being an integral part of the society in which I live. I just don't think people should put propaganda, of any kind, into geocaches. Using a geocache to promote an agenda is against the guidelines.

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Has anybody self-identified in the thread as progressive and open minded?

 

I don't think so.

 

R.O.N. felt that religion was being attacked, and then assumed that if religion was under attack, it must be under attack by open-minded progressives.

 

Well, are you an open-minded, progressive thinker?

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And you are entitled to not like whatever you want.. But you are plain "WRONG" when you say it's a violation of the guidelines. How do you feel about caches that are placed on church property but do not have any religious items in them?

 

As long as they have permission to place the cache there and the cache description text doesn't promote or disparage a religion, I don't have a problem with that.

 

My partner (in life, crime, and geocaching) just published GC209Y8. I recognize religion as being an integral part of the society in which I live. I just don't think people should put propaganda, of any kind, into geocaches. Using a geocache to promote an agenda is against the guidelines.

 

Placing a geocache with the intent of promoting an agenda is against the guidelines. Seriously, are you going to actually read the guidelines or just make it up as you go?

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It's been my experience that those professing to be the open-minded, progressive thinkers are usually the ones that are first in line to silence speech when they disagree with it...

 

That's fascinating, but has anyone told you to shut up, or reported your comments, or in other way tried to oppress your opinion in this forum?

 

And, as Castle pointed out, I haven't seen anybody labelling themselves an open-minded progressive.

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Placing a geocache with the intent of promoting an agenda is against the guidelines. Seriously, are you going to actually read the guidelines or just make it up as you go?

 

Are you really trying to claim that using somebody else's geocache to promote an agenda is in keeping with the spirit of the guidelines? Really?

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Where in here does it say anything about you being protected from religion? I have a right to express my religion through speech or writing. How did it ever happen that people feel they can silence those that they disagree with? And why is it always those "progressive, open-minded" folks that seem to be the worst at it.

 

Has anybody self-identified in the thread as progressive and open minded?

 

 

Not me. I'm regressive and closed-minded. Why, isn't everybody?

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Has anybody self-identified in the thread as progressive and open minded?

 

I don't think so.

 

R.O.N. felt that religion was being attacked, and then assumed that if religion was under attack, it must be under attack by open-minded progressives.

 

Hi, fellow heathen here. I won't pretend to know your story or know what your motivations are but you won't win many friends and you won't influence many people if you continue to call religious tracts/propaganda/fliers "questionable material". You're not going to change the minds of people with deep religious backgrounds and you're not going to influence Groundspeak policy.

 

The best thing you can do is quietly remove them as you find them and trade them for something of equal value and move on.

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My partner (in life, crime, and geocaching) just published GC209Y8. I recognize religion as being an integral part of the society in which I live. I just don't think people should put propaganda, of any kind, into geocaches. Using a geocache to promote an agenda is against the guidelines.

 

For what it's worth, here's the disclaimer that I put on my cache page

 

Despite the religious nature of this cache, neither Groundspeak nor I officially endorse any particular religion. The goal of this cache is to explore the history of Bytown/Ottawa, specifically the churches within the city. This cache is not meant to promote any particular faith, and only intended to teach about local history. I apologise if this cache offends anyone.

 

And the one on its sister cache

 

Disclaimer - Despite the quasi-religious nature of this cache, neither Geocaching.com or I endorse any particular religion. The purpose of this cache is to explore the Glebe, in the context of what makes it a 'Glebe.'

 

Religion has no place in geocaching, and I made a point of ensuring that both of my caches focused entirely on history and architecture. There are actually a few other things that I would have liked to include in my description of The Divine Downtown Diocesan Tour, but I decided not to because they were beginning to cross the line. I also put this as my reviewer note to make sure that I didn't cross the line;

 

Please let me know if you would like me to edit the disclaimer in any way. Also, I'm willing to edit out anything that you feel might be too far over the line with regards to theology.

 

I've tried to focus solely on history and architecture, but I'm not sure I went to far at any point in describing the practices of the Church.

 

Because of my disclaimer, there was no problem with my cache being published. CacheDrone knows that I'm a history nerd though, so I guess he believed what I said :)

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Placing a geocache with the intent of promoting an agenda is against the guidelines. Seriously, are you going to actually read the guidelines or just make it up as you go?

 

Are you really trying to claim that using somebody else's geocache to promote an agenda is in keeping with the spirit of the guidelines? Really?

 

Most every item that you put into a cache has some kind of agenda, especially person travel bugs. Perhaps you should let us all know what kind of items would be acceptable to you, so we'll know what kind of items are appropriate. How about hand warmers? The ones I put in the cache had the company name on the container, so that would be out.. Maybe it would just be better to not allow any swag, because it might upset someone's sensibilities.

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Well, are you an open-minded, progressive thinker?

 

You've defined this to mean someone who wants to stifle your freedom of speech and religion, which makes no sense. But in any case, nowhere have I tried to claim some open-minded, progressive high ground.

 

You insist on characterizing me as being motivated by hatred, which is just weird. I don't "hate" religion. At worst, I find it deeply, deeply boring. That's about it.

 

I just think it's against the guidelines AND the spirit of the game to use a geocache to promote an agenda, whether or not you own the geocache. If you want to argue about that, fine, but please stop with the personal characterization. It's inflammatory, unnecessary, and has no basis in anything I've actually said.

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Well, are you an open-minded, progressive thinker?

 

You've defined this to mean someone who wants to stifle your freedom of speech and religion, which makes no sense. But in any case, nowhere have I tried to claim some open-minded, progressive high ground.

 

You insist on characterizing me as being motivated by hatred, which is just weird. I don't "hate" religion. At worst, I find it deeply, deeply boring. That's about it.

 

I just think it's against the guidelines AND the spirit of the game to use a geocache to promote an agenda, whether or not you own the geocache. If you want to argue about that, fine, but please stop with the personal characterization. It's inflammatory, unnecessary, and has no basis in anything I've actually said.

 

Ok... So let me get this straight... You hijack a thread that isn't remotely religious. You twist the guidelines to imply that religious items are prohibited trade-items... You spend a huge amount of time arguing back and forth in these forums....

 

For something you find <yawn> ... boring...

 

Sorry, not buying what you're selling... But nice try...

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Wow!!! This thread has exploded! And to think, I looked in on it earlier and said "mehh... no big deal."

 

In the interest of promoting an open minded progressive opinion I submit the following:

 

Religious tracts in caches- Banned... offends non-believers or members of different faiths, promotes agenda

 

Business cards in caches- Banned... offends rival business owner/cachers,promotes a commercial agenda

 

Pamphlets for insurance/disneyland/ ginsu knives/ect... Banned... commercialism

 

"nasty swag" in caches- Banned... offends the above mentioned Religious cachers and promotes an agenda

 

McToys in a cache- Banned on two levels... commercialism and offending Vegetarians

 

OR

 

Just ignore them take out what you consider trash(only if you are the cache owner), trade for what you feel is valuable, and move on to the next find!!!

 

 

Open minded enough??

 

Darn... I left out Race, Politics, Abortion, the NRA, Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, and Hampsters. Oh and super-hero/ninja/ect toys that promote violence.

edit-typo

Edited by NeecesandNephews
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Placing a geocache with the intent of promoting an agenda is against the guidelines. Seriously, are you going to actually read the guidelines or just make it up as you go?

 

Are you really trying to claim that using somebody else's geocache to promote an agenda is in keeping with the spirit of the guidelines? Really?

 

Most every item that you put into a cache has some kind of agenda, especially person travel bugs. Perhaps you should let us all know what kind of items would be acceptable to you, so we'll know what kind of items are appropriate. How about hand warmers? The ones I put in the cache had the company name on the container, so that would be out.. Maybe it would just be better to not allow any swag, because it might upset someone's sensibilities.

 

It comes down to intent. If your intent is to convert someone to your religion or get someone to vote for your favourite candidate, that's an agenda. If your intent is to get someone to buy your stuff, that's an agenda. If your intent is to leave a decent piece of swag that someone else might want, that's not an agenda.

 

If the intent is unclear, my tendency is to assume good intentions because I think geocachers are, generally, good people. If someone puts some sort of trinket with a little prayer or a bracelet with a slogan on it or whatever, I'd assume that they just thought it would be something nice for another person to take. If someone puts a handful of pamphlets in a cache, the agenda is obvious.

 

If you're unsure about the appropriateness of an item, you have to ask yourself what your motive is. Do you want someone to have warm hands, or do you want to launch your friend's hand-warmer business?

 

Geocoins and travel bugs aren't considered trade items, and the guidelines are a little murky about those game pieces. Groundspeak does have guidelines about the content on geocoins with Groundspeak-issued tracking codes, and as far as I am aware, they allow religious and political messages on them.

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Ok... So let me get this straight... You hijack a thread that isn't remotely religious. You twist the guidelines to imply that religious items are prohibited trade-items... You spend a huge amount of time arguing back and forth in these forums....

 

For something you find <yawn> ... boring...

 

Sorry, not buying what you're selling... But nice try...

 

I'm not arguing against religion, I'm arguing against using a geocache to promote a religious, political, charitable, or commercial agenda. Your continued characterization of my argument as a statement against religion itself is simply incorrect. It's unfortunate that you insist on seeing it that way.

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In the intrest of promoting an open minded progressive opinion I submit the following:

 

Religious tracts in caches- Banned... offends non-believers or members of different faiths, promotes agenda

 

(etc)

You left out one.

 

Ammo box as cache containers - banned, for promoting guns and glorifying war and killing

 

And my lame attempt to go tie this in with the original topic : war and religion has been closely linked throughout most of history.

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All *I* want is a donut.

 

Can't someone leave THAT in a cache for me? In a proper sack, of course.

 

You can always travel to Portland OR and get a bacon donut.

 

Back OT-the guidelines do not state that putting a single religious item in a cache promotes an agenda nor does it solicit. It's your cache, maintain it as you see fit. And keep the drama on point. We have already had our religious or not discussion this week, and it is only Tuesday.

 

And since this is a privately owned and operated website, I don't think the Constitution will apply either.

But I could be wrong, it's been months since I have stayed in a Holiday Inn.

 

Never be too open minded-your brains might fall out.

Edited by wimseyguy
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All *I* want is a donut.

 

Can't someone leave THAT in a cache for me? In a proper sack, of course.

 

You can always travel to Portland OR and get a bacon donut.

 

Back OT-the guidelines do not state that putting a single religious item in a cache promotes an agenda nor does it solicit. It's your cache, maintain it as you see fit. And keep the drama on point. We have already had our religious or not discussion this week, and it is only Tuesday.

 

And since this is a privately owned and operated website, I don't think the Constitution will apply either.

But I could be wrong, it's been months since I have stayed in a Holiday Inn.

 

They're quite good, just had one a couple weeks ago :unsure:

 

Considering that this privately owned and operated website does not own the game of Geocaching, it's interesting that someone thinks they have any right to dictate what you can and can't put in a cache. They can dictate what the requirements are in order to list the cache and can remove the listing if they want, but they can't dictate how the game is played.

 

I think TPTB have been very clear that religious items put in a cache do not violate the guidelines.. Case closed...

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