Is a decoy/hint container OK?

[Pajaholic]

I have a dilemma. One of my caches is proving much harder for some to find that I would have expected. I could give a hint on the cache page, but that would be a complete spoiler, which I don't want to do. So I thought about placing a second container under a geo-beacon a few feet from the actual cache. The second container would have a laminated card stuck into the base and lid, one card says, "This is a dummy cache left as a hint for {cache name}. You’re close, but no cigar yet. Please replace this box as you found it. Thanks and good hunting." While the other card gives a semi-cryptic clue in the form of a verse of rhyme and includes information that when Googled and with a little thought would almost certainly tell the seeker where to look.

 

Is this OK or does it fall foul of the "0.1" rule?

 

TIA,

 

Geoff

[+Isonzo Karst]

OK

[+Chrysalides]

I don't know what your local reviewer thinks, but I've heard of many who do that. If you want to take another example, for multistage caches, you can have physical stages within 0.1 mile of each other. I think the decoy / hint cache should be OK, since it is not a "loggable" cache.

 

Do consider that someone might just add a logsheet to your decoy cache and call that a find. Worst part of that is that subsequent finders may not even realize that is not the real cache. So for your decoy, perhaps something that cannot hold a log sheet would be a better choice.

[+pamlicojack]

I was in the woods approaching a small run down shed that appeared to be GZ. Upon looking inside, I spotted an orange tube and thought "Jackpot". When I opened it up, there was a piece of paper that simply said "Nope, not it" and contained a small clue. It was then I remembered I was supposed to be looking for an ammo can. A quick search around the shed led me to the can but I thought it was a good "Gotcha" for anyone looking for it as there was no mention of the tube on the webpage.

 

I thought it was sneaky, but funny...

[+J the Goat]

I think that's a good idea. With your title, I thought you were going to ask about a bogus clue on the cache page. That would be horrible.

 

Just be ready for some people to log the dummy, even if it's identified as the dummy.

[+uxorious]

You can certainly leave a dummy cache, I've seen that a couple times.

 

However, I'm not sure why you would want to leave a semi-cryptic clue out in the field, but do not want to leave a hint on the cache page.

 

Seems to me if you leave a hint, that needs decoding, on the cache page, someone could decide whether to use it or not. If you leave a hint out in the field, unless it is coded also, anyone who found it would then have it whether they were hoping for a clue or not.

[+StarBrand]

No problem - I've seen that done numerous times.

 

However - a few feet away seems awfully close.

[+Mom-n-Andy]

I have a dilemma. One of my caches is proving much harder for some to find that I would have expected. I could give a hint on the cache page, but that would be a complete spoiler, which I don't want to do. So I thought about placing a second container under a geo-beacon a few feet from the actual cache. The second container would have a laminated card stuck into the base and lid, one card says, "This is a dummy cache left as a hint for {cache name}. You’re close, but no cigar yet. Please replace this box as you found it. Thanks and good hunting." While the other card gives a semi-cryptic clue in the form of a verse of rhyme and includes information that when Googled and with a little thought would almost certainly tell the seeker where to look.

 

Is this OK or does it fall foul of the "0.1" rule?

 

TIA,

 

Geoff

 

Why not just bump the difficulty up?

Edited March 22, 2010 by Mom-n-Andy

[Pajaholic]

However, I'm not sure why you would want to leave a semi-cryptic clue out in the field, but do not want to leave a hint on the cache page.

The clue works partly because of where the cacher must stand to retrieve the dummy cache and the relationship between where the cacher stands and the direction and distance to the real cache. Also, I've used the scientific name of the plant under which the cache is hidden. There's no way I can think of to give all that info on the cache page without totally ruining the hunt for those who want to try "unsupported".

 

So from the rhyme, the seeker can deduce which direction and how far away. If they still can't find it, they can look up the plant in Google images, which should take them right to the spot. Smartphone users have a distinct advantage here - but I suspect that most cachers would need to return home etc. to look it up and come back another time.

 

Geoff

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

There's no way I can think of to give all that info on the cache page without totally ruining the hunt for those who want to try "unsupported".

That's why hints are encrypted. If the cacher wants to find it unsupported they won't decrypt the hint.

 

If the cacher just wants to find the cache without playing the owner's silly cacher-control games they can decrypt the hint.

[+Castle Mischief]

Is this listed as a Traditional cache or a Mystery cache?

[+bittsen]

I detest decoys. It's like an April Fools joke in the middle of the forest. It's like being told you are getting a car for your 16th birthday and opening a gift to find a Hotwheels car. It's like being asked on a date with someone you have been fascinated with and then being stood up. It's like being taken to a romantic dinner to get the break up talk. It's like having the winning lottery numbers but finding out the ticket is for the wrong lottery. It's like winning a car in a raffle and then getting the tax forms that require you to buy the car.

 

Decoys aren't fun for the seeker.

 

Containers in the wild that are NOT caches (or stages of a multi, I'm sure) are just litter. They have no redeeming value other than to taunt someone who is anonymous to you. Taunting anonymous people is no different than parking your car with the keys in the ignition while you go on a 10 mile hike. You trust that the car will be there when you get back but shouldn't be surprised if it disappears.

 

Yes, it's OK to do it. Nothing says you can't.

[Pajaholic]

No problem - I've seen that done numerous times.

 

However - a few feet away seems awfully close.

Most cachers can get to within a few feet and the dummy cache is in an obvious place - so I'm hoping that a few feet is close enough to guide them onto the cache but not so close that they'll stand on it!

 

I'm convinced that people have touched the cache without realising it was there. One guy dropped his pen almost on the cache and still had to ask for a hint. Several have wondered how they couldn't find the cache the first time they looked. The cache is almost in plain sight - just placed on the ground under a plant - but it is well camouflaged!

 

Castle Mischief: It's a traditional (GC21XGP). However, the coordinates for the cache are about as spot on as I can make them and you should be able to find the real cache without the clue the dummy contains.

 

bittsen: Just to be clear, this isn't a decoy as such. It's designed to help people find the cache, not to frustrate them.

 

Geoff

[+simpjkee]

You can do that.

 

I woudn't do that though. I tend to not appreciate the taunting of a "decoy cache".

 

If the hint in the decoy is useful if googled, how is it useful in the field? I (and I think most cachers) don't have access to Google at your cache site.

 

Plus you never know eventually a year from know maybe the decoy container breaks or something and then people are logging it as the cache......or maybe the hint disappears and someone decideds to "help you" by putting a log in the decoy container. Unless you hover over your cache it looks like you're just inviting problems unnecessarily.

 

I would instead up the difficulty and/or put the hint on the cache where it is more appropriate.

[+J the Goat]

You can do that.

 

I woudn't do that though. I tend to not appreciate the taunting of a "decoy cache".

 

If the hint in the decoy is useful if googled, how is it useful in the field? I (and I think most cachers) don't have access to Google at your cache site.

 

Plus you never know eventually a year from know maybe the decoy container breaks or something and then people are logging it as the cache......or maybe the hint disappears and someone decideds to "help you" by putting a log in the decoy container. Unless you hover over your cache it looks like you're just inviting problems unnecessarily.

 

I would instead up the difficulty and/or put the hint on the cache where it is more appropriate.

 

I think I agree with this more. Nothing wrong with upping the difficulty if it's too low, and just put the scientific plant name as the clue.

[+geodarts]

Duplicated during flood control

Edited March 22, 2010 by Erickson

[+geodarts]

I have done a well hidden cache in the woods with 12-15 decoys (or so). Is it okay? Yes. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it original? No. Does it leave me happy? Not particularly.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I found one of those. A fairly difficult hide. I think I found four of the decoys first. I thought it was funny!

[+narcissa]

If it's YOUR cache, a decoy is fine.

 

I've seen a couple of decoys placed without the cache owner's consent/knowledge, and that is not fine.

[+Walts Hunting]

There is one in Foster City, CA that is a puzzle. After you go to the deisgnated location and get some info you do some calculations and have the final location. I got there and found the container that said "You did it wrong, try again". I thought that was better than me frantically searching in expanding circles for to long. Went back to original location and never figured out what I did wrong but the idea sounds fine.

[Pajaholic]

Thanks to all for the input. I suppose that "decoy" is a badly chosen word, since the intention is not to decoy but to help guide the seeker to the cache. FWIW, here's the actual rhyme from the dummy cache:

If Tupperware you seek today,

Know that it’s not so far away,

Less than a fathom in a pantomime way,

Asplenium scolopendrium conceals its stay.

I don't know if the rest of the world has pantomime, but in UK one feature of almost all pantomimes is getting the audience to shout out "behind you!", so the third line tells the seeker that the cache is less than six feet behind him or her, and if you can't find the cache from that then "asplenium scolopendrium" gives it away since there's only one of those in that area.

 

I hear what people say about upping the difficulty. The problem with that is that it's a 2 and it really doesn't warrant anything more. Cachers who only look for geobeacons won't find this cache quickly as it's not a typical "UPS hide". Yet those who follow the arrow and look where it says do. So, somewhat ironically, most of those DNFs and requests for hints come from more experienced cachers.

 

Geoff

[+Viajero Perdido]

We had a hilarious hide that was billed as a "film can".

 

You look inside a hollow log, and it's filled with hundreds of film cans, all empty, every last one of 'em.

 

A few feet away, well hidden, is an industrial film can. It was huge.

 

Brilliant.

[+jamrasc]

Personally I don't like decoys and wouldn't place them. I've gotten ticked lately because apparently someone has taken it upon themselves to put up decoys for some of our hides. Others have posted about them in their logs. I'm planning on a trip real soon to remove them.

[+GeoGeeBee]

Thanks to all for the input. I suppose that "decoy" is a badly chosen word, since the intention is not to decoy but to help guide the seeker to the cache. FWIW, here's the actual rhyme from the dummy cache:

If Tupperware you seek today,

Know that it’s not so far away,

Less than a fathom in a pantomime way,

Asplenium scolopendrium conceals its stay.

I don't know if the rest of the world has pantomime, but in UK one feature of almost all pantomimes is getting the audience to shout out "behind you!", so the third line tells the seeker that the cache is less than six feet behind him or her, and if you can't find the cache from that then "asplenium scolopendrium" gives it away since there's only one of those in that area.

 

 

I think this is brilliant. I would really enjoy finding that!

[+J the Goat]

Thanks to all for the input. I suppose that "decoy" is a badly chosen word, since the intention is not to decoy but to help guide the seeker to the cache. FWIW, here's the actual rhyme from the dummy cache:

If Tupperware you seek today,

Know that it’s not so far away,

Less than a fathom in a pantomime way,

Asplenium scolopendrium conceals its stay.

I don't know if the rest of the world has pantomime, but in UK one feature of almost all pantomimes is getting the audience to shout out "behind you!", so the third line tells the seeker that the cache is less than six feet behind him or her, and if you can't find the cache from that then "asplenium scolopendrium" gives it away since there's only one of those in that area.

 

I hear what people say about upping the difficulty. The problem with that is that it's a 2 and it really doesn't warrant anything more. Cachers who only look for geobeacons won't find this cache quickly as it's not a typical "UPS hide". Yet those who follow the arrow and look where it says do. So, somewhat ironically, most of those DNFs and requests for hints come from more experienced cachers.

 

Geoff

 

Now I'm torn. I think this is a great limmrick, and would be fun for me to find. Still not sure about the decoy thing though. Boils down to this: it's your cache, do what you want.

[+Happy Humphrey]

It's a great idea.

 

I have one that's a bit less helpful.

 

There's a fake rock hidden about 6 feet from the ammo box, but rather more obvious than the ammo box. Inside is a note, which (if you don't think about what you're doing - it doesn't actually tell you to do this but just gives coordinates) encourages you to a micro in the woodland about a quarter of a mile away. Then another micro, and finally another which asks you to think why you're following this multicache trail - when the cache is clearly marked as a Traditional.

 

Most people fall for the trick, but don't seem to complain!

Edited March 23, 2010 by Happy Humphrey

[+niraD]

I think it depends on the "decoy".

 

I've found puzzle caches with "decoys" at GZ that were actually part of the puzzles.

 

I've found a puzzle caches with "decoys" at the coordinates for incorrect solutions, with "this is not the cache; try again" messages. (But one of these "decoys" acquired a "replacement" log, which several people signed, not realizing they had solved the puzzle incorrectly.)

 

The camouflage for my first hide required me to construct two pieces for symmetry; one held the cache and the other was a "decoy" with the message "The other one is the cache" written on it.

 

And you know what they say about the eye of the beholder. I would find a 5-gallon container full of 35mm film canisters tedious if the cache was one of the film canisters. But if the cache description listed the size as Large, and there was a huge industrial film canister hidden nearby, then I would find the same stash of 35mm film canisters to be very amusing. (Thanks, Viajero Perdido!)

[+SSO JOAT]

I have a 'decoy' on one of my hides that is very well received. It is not a container, though. It is just a wooden plaque with some prose laminated onto the front that gives them a subtle hint to the location of the cache that is still some 15 feet away. The plaque is under an obvious stick pile that just looks like a poorly constructed hide in the woods. It is on the only approach to the cache, so anyone hunting it has to see this "decoy" first.

 

I wouldn't use a container as a decoy as that would be too confusing to people. But I think the wooden plaque method works perfectly in certain situations and it clearly isn't a container.

[+Wooden Cyclist]

I detest decoys. It's like an April Fools joke in the middle of the forest. It's like being told you are getting a car for your 16th birthday and opening a gift to find a Hotwheels car. It's like being asked on a date with someone you have been fascinated with and then being stood up. It's like being taken to a romantic dinner to get the break up talk. It's like having the winning lottery numbers but finding out the ticket is for the wrong lottery. It's like winning a car in a raffle and then getting the tax forms that require you to buy the car.

 

Decoys aren't fun for the seeker.

 

Containers in the wild that are NOT caches (or stages of a multi, I'm sure) are just litter. They have no redeeming value other than to taunt someone who is anonymous to you. Taunting anonymous people is no different than parking your car with the keys in the ignition while you go on a 10 mile hike. You trust that the car will be there when you get back but shouldn't be surprised if it disappears.

 

Yes, it's OK to do it. Nothing says you can't.

 

A 5/5 multi was published in our area last week. The decoys were not only fun they were very helpful. Stage one was a relatively standard find.

 

Stage the final was a bison tube about 45 feet high in a large pine tree. There are 2 decoys in the pine tree. One of the aspects of this hide that makes it difficult is that there are two other large pine trees near GZ. By finding one of the decoys lower in the tree the seeker knows that they are looking in the right tree and won't waste time climbing one of the other trees.

 

The other decoy is farther up the tree, about halfway to the final. Again by finding the decoy you know you are on the right track.

 

Its like being told that you are getting a new care for your 16th birthday and getting a hotwheels car with a note telling you to look in the garage for your real car.

 

It's like being asked on a date with someone you have been fascinated with and then getting a note stating that they are running late and will meet you soon.

 

Don't be surprised if someone mentions in their log that they appreciated the decoy. It's happened to me. I hid a cache in a tree. The spot was tricky to find. I placed a decoy in an obvious spot with a note that said "Keep looking, your close but its not that easy". Several people told me that they got a laugh out of the decoy.

[+Mother Wolf]

I have a cache, that is actually part of a series I'm doing, that will be a night cache. The story line has to do with different type of Fae (fairies) in a specific group. I have set it up so that as you go along you will encounter containers, decoys if you will, that correlates to 1 of the fairy of this group. The container also has swag associated with that character (Leprechaun - gold coins) no log but a note stating you aren't there yet. It is a little extra work but it also helps the cacher know they are on the right track. The final cache will then have its own fairy swag & a log.

 

I have done similar set ups connected to other topics: ie Macbeth's Act IV Scene I with the three ugly witches verse Double, double, toil & trouble...using critters such as Newt, Frog & Bats as multi's, all with said decoy containers.

 

I have never gotten any bad logs. The cachers loved them & had some great stories along with their searches so go for it with the decoy container but perhaps with a bit of thought you can work it into the cache theme for more excitement. Good luck.

[+Castle Mischief]

*Ahem*

 

So...

 

Is this listed as a Traditional cache or a Mystery cache?

[+Mother Wolf]

Eye of Newt - Traditional

Toe of Frog - Multi

Encanted Forest - Mystery

[+BulldogBlitz]

if you have "decoy" caches... how can one avoid having someone log it as "found the cache... but the log was missing"??

[+niraD]

if you have "decoy" caches... how can one avoid having someone log it as "found the cache... but the log was missing"??

I think the best way is to use a decoy that isn't a container. The one I used was a solid block of wood, with the message written on an unexposed surface. I've seen "replacement" logs show up in clearly labeled decoy containers. But then, I've also seen "replacement" logs show up in on-site puzzle components that weren't even really containers, so it may be a losing battle.

[+5Taylors]

One of my first finds was a 2 stage, the first stage was an ammo can full of 35mm film canisters, all with bits of paper in them saying "not this one" "keep looking" etc. Many of them were damp and illegible. We got to the end of them with no co ordinates for the main cache. My daughter then says "I bet it's on the bottom of the canor something silly" and sure enough...! It's one of my favourite ones yet and several people have logged dnfs and maintanance logs since!

I have no problem with fun decoys!

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

There's no way I can think of to give all that info on the cache page without totally ruining the hunt for those who want to try "unsupported".

That's why hints are encrypted. If the cacher wants to find it unsupported they won't decrypt the hint.

 

If the cacher just wants to find the cache without playing the owner's silly cacher-control games they can decrypt the hint.

Have we gotten to the point where hiding a Cache in a bush NEAR a lamppost is a control game? In my opinion, placing a hint in the first place where people are likely to look for a Ccahe(that's not hidden there) is not a control issue. The other option is just to let people look at the lampskirt, and log their DNF if they fail to look elswhere.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

I detest decoys. It's like an April Fools joke in the middle of the forest. It's like being told you are getting a car for your 16th birthday and opening a gift to find a Hotwheels car. It's like being asked on a date with someone you have been fascinated with and then being stood up. It's like being taken to a romantic dinner to get the break up talk. It's like having the winning lottery numbers but finding out the ticket is for the wrong lottery. It's like winning a car in a raffle and then getting the tax forms that require you to buy the car.

 

Decoys aren't fun for the seeker.

 

Containers in the wild that are NOT caches (or stages of a multi, I'm sure) are just litter. They have no redeeming value other than to taunt someone who is anonymous to you. Taunting anonymous people is no different than parking your car with the keys in the ignition while you go on a 10 mile hike. You trust that the car will be there when you get back but shouldn't be surprised if it disappears.

 

Yes, it's OK to do it. Nothing says you can't.

So many Ccahes are hidden in places now that are obvious to experienced players, that if you use any creativity, there will be DNF logs.

 

Ugh...I looked in the lampskirt, and the Cache is definitly missing. I think what the OP is getting at is hiding a clue in the place where people will look first, not having a "fake" Cache there to throw them off. I agree that hiding 15 film cand with notes saying "Not this one" and having one with the logbook can be lame, or it could be fun.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

I have done a well hidden cache in the woods with 12-15 decoys (or so). Is it okay? Yes. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it original? No. Does it leave me happy? Not particularly.

When you say "Done" you mean found, not hidden?

 

I remember going to find a new Cache after an event once that turned out to be an M&M tube hidden amongst a pike of furniture and other junk that was dumped down a gulley. Theye were several of the same tubes hidden containing notes like "Keep Looking". If I remember right...the whole thing sucked. I have also found "Hint" Caches hidden where I first looked for the actual Cache, that's not bad at all. At least I didn't just give up after not finding the Cache in the obvious spot.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...=y&decrypt=

 

I guess I never did find it.

Edited March 26, 2010 by WRITE SHOP ROBERT

[+The Ravens]

I was a Mystery cache with 2 dummy containers close by (3 feet). It's more of a joke than anything. The cache is named after a local that allows replacements of his caches and sometimes there ends up being 2 or more containers at the sight.

[+Mother Wolf]

I have searched for caches that have had decoy containers that have been fun & some that have sucked so I can understand the 'I dont like them' thought. Also understand that there is always the chance of someone logging found, log not there regardless if they found the last stage or not. So what I have done is put something like 'Keep Looking', 'Getting closer', 'Almost there', inside the lid, on the bottom inside, & also put a laminated card with 'not the final' on it. I also try to have something unique for the final container which then when folks log there is most often a comment about it telling me they completed the journey.

 

After all it is a game we play, & it is important that it is fun. Of course there is always someone who will find something to dislike about everything.

 

On less complex caches I will add a hint on the cache page or 1st line instruction to READ ALL of the info. It doesnt matter there are still those that 'with a note' or 'NM' log cache is missing or no log etc. The problem was they werent told EXACTLY where it was & so they havent learned or they have forgotten how to look. Take the DNF, move on. When I see these logs I can almost bet that if they look for my other caches with parts or puzzles they will not get to the end but rather log, no log.

 

Last thing.....I have a cache that is a mystery.

Stage 1 - parking lot, which is the cache page coords

Stage 2 - read clues on cache page to get to location w/ container that holds the coords for final stage

Final - is a thermos fruit or soup container. The lid has a screw top with a separate space for a folding spoon. OK?

 

That spoon space is just perfect for the log to keep it separate. So on the inside of the cap is a permaink note: LOG INSIDE THIS CAP!

 

You cant believe how many folks log we found the cache but there is no log so we left a piece of paper, or needs a new log, log is missing. A CO cant produce a cache that is totally FOOL proof so.......go out & enjoy. We are lucky there are so many different caches.

[4wheelin_fool]

I had 2 caches like that. All of the decoys were in film cans with a different hint (one said it was NOT in a film can). Eventually all the decoys disappeared. *poof* I suspect that people either wanted the film cans or tossed them.

[+smstext]

i have a cache im making, one end is the dummy container saying "this is not the cache" and hidden the other end is the actual cache still building it.