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DNF, DNF, DNF


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wow, i didn't know there was a limit on quote blocks...

 

Hmm. . . No, the other option is to grow some courtesy. It is courteous to the cache owner to log your DNFs. It is courteous to future cache seekers to log your DNFs.

no, it's courtesy to tell the owner and the other cachers about any significant information that there might be. i can do that with a note too. or with a private message maybe.

 

It occurs to me that if you intend to send a PM to every cacher who may want to look for the caches you haven't found that you had better get started on it now. It is likely going to take you a really long time. :laughing:

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One perfectly valid reason for logging a DNF is because you just don't feel like it. ;)

 

I gotta be honest here. I log all my DNF's. (well, 95% of them) I'm one of those people who feels that DNF's can be just as interesting if not more than finds. I have no problem with letting people know about my inadequacies and the fun I have goofing around trying to find caches.

 

What I do have a problem with is the feeling that people are somehow looking down on me because I might not log my recreational activities in the precise manner they feel I should.

 

I also happen to be one of those people that will refuse to do something when I feel like people are trying to force me into it.

 

I'm getting an uneasy vibe from this thread.

 

It's one thing to point out all the good reasons for logging DNF's. It's another thing to bully people into logging them.

 

Just point out why it's good for folks to log 'em and leave it at that.

 

Chances are the folks that didn't realize why it's a good idea will probably start logging them.

 

But the people who already log them often, but not always are just going to balk at the attempts to bully them to log every single one of them. I know I would. :laughing:

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So my question is this: Do you log a DNF even if youre coming right back? If so, do you log every time you revisit or just edit your first log? And finally, if caching is REALLY "not about the numbers", why do people care about OTHER PEOPLE'S DNF count?

If I don't find a geocache I log a DNF.

 

If I don't find it again the next day or quite soon, I don't log a DNF, but write an email to the owner and describe what happened and where I failed. Usually I get some help, recently I even got a phone number and chatted to a very friendly owner from Dresden.

 

I completely agree with you that there is no point in highjacking the online log by multiple DNFs. But at least one DNF is mandatory. Maybe the cache isn't there any more. DNFs are very important for the owner to find out that a non-scheduled maintenance might be necessary.

 

GermanSailor

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It occurs to me that if you intend to send a PM to every cacher who may want to look for the caches you haven't found that you had better get started on it now. It is likely going to take you a really long time. :laughing:

i was actually chuckling about a similar point the other day. people were suggesting that every cache that you didn't find ought to get a DNF log from you. so i thought, well there's around a million caches out there that you didn't find, so shouldn't you be logging a DNF for all of them? ;)

 

What I do have a problem with is the feeling that people are somehow looking down on me because I might not log my recreational activities in the precise manner they feel I should.

 

I also happen to be one of those people that will refuse to do something when I feel like people are trying to force me into it.

couldn't have said it any better. as i said elsewhere, everybody should be aware of the fact that it's perfectly OK to disagree with somebody on whatever subject, and they should acknowledge the fact that certain things are just opinions and there's no "right" or "wrong". some people log every single failed attempt as DNF - fine! other people don't log any DNFs - also fine! yet other people don't even log their finds - perfectly fine as well! just don't try to tell other people how it should be done.

 

I completely agree with you that there is no point in highjacking the online log by multiple DNFs. But at least one DNF is mandatory. Maybe the cache isn't there any more. DNFs are very important for the owner to find out that a non-scheduled maintenance might be necessary.

mandatory? says who?

 

it's not mandatory! maybe for you personally, but not for other people. if somebody doesn't want to log any DNFs at all, acknowledge the fact that you disagree with them, but at the same time there's also nothing wrong with what they chose to do.

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I also happen to be one of those people that will refuse to do something when I feel like people are trying to force me into it.

 

I'm getting an uneasy vibe from this thread.

 

It's one thing to point out all the good reasons for logging DNF's. It's another thing to bully people into logging them.

 

 

my feelings exactly, which i actually expressed in one of the other few DNF related threads....everyone is free to play this game as they see fit, just don't try to convince/impose it on me that "your" way is the right way

 

and as one of the Reviewers said too...there is nothing in the guidelines making it "mandatory" to log a Find or a DNF, there's plenty of people out there with lots of finds meanwhile they have never logged anything

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OK ...

From the Geocaching Frequently Asked Questions

 

Quote:

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

 

Which of those are more important than the others?

 

I guess if someone decides that they want to play the game their way and not "log their experiences at www.geocaching.com" (which would include a DNF), because that's the way they want to play the game, then I guess someone else doesn't need to write (sign) in the logbook either. Or ever leave anything in the caches, just take what they want.

 

These are 3 very basic and simple rules, that are the basic tenets of geocaching. I'm sorry, but there are some things that I feel need to be adhered to, and these are the minimum. Other than that, by all means, play the game the way you want!

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OK ...

From the Geocaching Frequently Asked Questions

 

Quote:

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

 

Which of those are more important than the others?

 

I guess if someone decides that they want to play the game their way and not "log their experiences at www.geocaching.com" (which would include a DNF), because that's the way they want to play the game, then I guess someone else doesn't need to write (sign) in the logbook either. Or ever leave anything in the caches, just take what they want.

 

These are 3 very basic and simple rules, that are the basic tenets of geocaching. I'm sorry, but there are some things that I feel need to be adhered to, and these are the minimum. Other than that, by all means, play the game the way you want!

 

Do you know that the "rules" used to say you had to take something and that you had to leave something and that you had to write about it in the log book? It didn't say anything about logging online.

 

Then folks got all legalistic and started harassing others because they didn't choose to trade and chose to write about their experience online rather than in the physical logbook. If you just signed your name in the logbook and didn't trade, you were a sub-par cacher. So, the "rules" got updated to try to convey that you could trade if you wanted and that it was fine to write about your experience online and just sign the logbook.

 

But again, folks want to get legalistic about it. If you were to ask whoever updated the FAQ if they were referring to DNF's when they made that change, I'd bet they would tell you that it was all about the find post.

 

But people are free to interpret the FAQ however they see fit.

 

It still stands that while you can delete an online find log if there is not a signature in the physical logbook, you can't "unfind" a cache just because you don't log anything online.

 

June 23, 2008 FAQ

June 24, 2008 FAQ

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I don't often log my DNF's. I usually assume they are my own fault, and that no one in general will benifit from hearing about how thick I am.

 

That said, sometimes you get to a place where you have zero'd in with the gps, taken care to read the previous logs and the hint, and still fail...these will often turn up muggled or missing.

 

How to tell the difference, it seems to me, is really the question. Logging the former is nice but, well, trivial. Logging the latter potentially saves people loads of time repeating your futile quest, or get the OP to head up some maintenance work.

 

I dont' have a hard or fast rule, I wish I did. The longer I do this, the better my "geosense" becomes, and the better decisions I make regarding stuff that's broken vs. stuff that I'm failing to find.

 

Your thoughts appreciated.

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OK ...

From the Geocaching Frequently Asked Questions

 

Quote:

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

 

Which of those are more important than the others?

 

I guess if someone decides that they want to play the game their way and not "log their experiences at www.geocaching.com" (which would include a DNF), because that's the way they want to play the game, then I guess someone else doesn't need to write (sign) in the logbook either. Or ever leave anything in the caches, just take what they want.

 

These are 3 very basic and simple rules, that are the basic tenets of geocaching. I'm sorry, but there are some things that I feel need to be adhered to, and these are the minimum. Other than that, by all means, play the game the way you want!

 

where does it say you have to adhere to the above rules?

 

i don't see anywhere mentioned that if you don't log your find online you can't go geocaching

 

afaic there are far more important rules that need to be adhered to rather than writing about my experience

 

sometimes there is no experience...LPC or GRC anyone?...hence the 4 letter word logs, and even better the totally blank logs

 

would it make you happy if i log a DNF just for the sake of it and not write anything?...how is that useful to anyone?

 

sometimes DNF's do more harm than good, and one clear example is a cache that has been archived recently due to 26 DNF's...yes, the cache was off by 20 meters but the description was very detailed and would take one in the right spot...now at some point someone moved it a bit

 

someone posted a "needs maintenance" log...and for some reason just one month later the cache was archived by a reviewer, usually there is more time given to CO to fix their cache

 

today we went there because one of my TB supposedly was in that cache

while my husband went couple of steps down to check the crevice, where the description said it will be, i stayed up and looked under the first possible hiding place and voila...cache is right there, dry and happy

 

getting back home and reading back on the logs, we noticed that someone already posted in detail the current location of the cache....still 4 more DNF's after that log....

 

the conclusion from this story?...hardly anyone reads the logs

Edited by t4e
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OK ...

From the Geocaching Frequently Asked Questions

 

Quote:

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

 

Which of those are more important than the others?

 

I guess if someone decides that they want to play the game their way and not "log their experiences at www.geocaching.com" (which would include a DNF), because that's the way they want to play the game, then I guess someone else doesn't need to write (sign) in the logbook either. Or ever leave anything in the caches, just take what they want.

 

These are 3 very basic and simple rules, that are the basic tenets of geocaching. I'm sorry, but there are some things that I feel need to be adhered to, and these are the minimum. Other than that, by all means, play the game the way you want!

 

where does it say you have to adhere to the above rules?

 

i don't see anywhere mentioned that if you don't log your find online you can't go geocaching

 

afaic there are far more important rules that need to be adhered to rather than writing about my experience

 

sometimes there is no experience...LPC or GRC anyone?...hence the 4 letter word logs, and even better the totally blank logs

 

would it make you happy if i log a DNF just for the sake of it and not write anything?...how is that useful to anyone?

 

sometimes DNF's do more harm than good, and one clear example is a cache that has been archived recently due to 26 DNF's...yes, the cache was off by 20 meters but the description was very detailed and would take one in the right spot...now at some point someone moved it a bit

 

someone posted a "needs maintenance" log...and for some reason just one month later the cache was archived by a reviewer, usually there is more time given to CO to fix their cache

 

today we went there because one of my TB supposedly was in that cache

while my husband went couple of steps down to check the crevice, where the description said it will be, stayed up and looked under the first possible hiding place and voila...cache is right there, dry and happy

 

getting back home and reading back on the logs, we noticed that someone already posted in detail the current location of the cache....still 4 more DNF's after that log....

 

the conclusion from this story?...hardly anyone reads the logs

 

 

I realize this is going to be perceived as a stupid question, but on the cache you describe, why didn't you just adjust the coordinates instead of adding the description?? There are a lot of people playing ( I am not one of them) that simply go by the coords, and never look at the description, past what size cache they are looking for.

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where does it say you have to adhere to the above rules?

 

i don't see anywhere mentioned that if you don't log your find online you can't go geocaching

 

afaic there are far more important rules that need to be adhered to rather than writing about my experience

 

sometimes there is no experience...LPC or GRC anyone?...hence the 4 letter word logs, and even better the totally blank logs

 

would it make you happy if i log a DNF just for the sake of it and not write anything?...how is that useful to anyone?

 

sometimes DNF's do more harm than good, and one clear example is a cache that has been archived recently due to 26 DNF's...yes, the cache was off by 20 meters but the description was very detailed and would take one in the right spot...now at some point someone moved it a bit

 

someone posted a "needs maintenance" log...and for some reason just one month later the cache was archived by a reviewer, usually there is more time given to CO to fix their cache

 

today we went there because one of my TB supposedly was in that cache

while my husband went couple of steps down to check the crevice, where the description said it will be, stayed up and looked under the first possible hiding place and voila...cache is right there, dry and happy

 

getting back home and reading back on the logs, we noticed that someone already posted in detail the current location of the cache....still 4 more DNF's after that log....

 

the conclusion from this story?...hardly anyone reads the logs

 

 

I realize this is going to be perceived as a stupid question, but on the cache you describe, why didn't you just adjust the coordinates instead of adding the description?? There are a lot of people playing ( I am not one of them) that simply go by the coords, and never look at the description, past what size cache they are looking for.

 

you didn't read very well my comments...

 

I didn't log the detailed description, someone else did back on October 25, and we only saw that log when we came back home too

and its not my cache, if you are referring to the cache description

 

We went today but the cache was already archived on march 13th

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...=y&decrypt=

 

i don't think new coordinates would have helped since the cache description was very detailed, and as you can see from the pictures everyone made it in the right spot

Edited by t4e
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agree that the right thing to do is to log a DNF when you've not found a cache you were looking for.
yep, so you should also log a found when you found the cache right? regardless of whether you signed the log or not.
Repeating the same thing over and over while ignoring parts of my post where I answer your supposition directly will only convince the dim-witted that you are correct. If you're too lazy to go back and see what I said again, it was:
A true "purist" would not log a find in the examples you bring up.
In other words, no, your leap from logging DNFs being the right thing to do to logging a find "regardless of whether you signed the log or not" is based on extremely flawed logic.
A true "purist" would not log a find in the examples you bring up.
yeah, but why not? the log says "found it", and if i spotted the cache from far away, then i did find it.
It's really quite simple. The very first rules of geocaching, for the very first cache, the rules that are still out there today specify that you should write in the logbook. Oh, and they also say you should post your experiences online. If you don't find the cache, it is still an experience.
you think logic is outrageous?
Nope. I see little logic in your argument.
either you go by what the log type says, or you go by what the guidelines say. you can't have both.
You are wrong. The basic rules of caching say to sign the logbook. Period.
i'm sorry if you can't follow my arguments.
I'm not, I'm done with you.
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it's not mandatory! maybe for you personally, but not for other people. if somebody doesn't want to log any DNFs at all, acknowledge the fact that you disagree with them, but at the same time there's also nothing wrong with what they chose to do.

Yes, that's what I meant. TO ME a DNF is mandatory. Maybe because that's how I, as an owner of several caches, found out that one was missing.

 

Of course I don't want you to tell other people what to do.

 

If it is okay not to log DNFs at all is a different topic. I don't have the consumer mentality. Find, find, find, but never hide and never tell that something might need some attention. DNF logs do that - in my opinion.

 

But again: That's just my opinion, you have every right to differ.

 

GermanSailor

Edited by GermanSailor
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I don't often log my DNF's. I usually assume they are my own fault, and that no one in general will benifit from hearing about how thick I am.

 

That said, sometimes you get to a place where you have zero'd in with the gps, taken care to read the previous logs and the hint, and still fail...these will often turn up muggled or missing.

 

How to tell the difference, it seems to me, is really the question. Logging the former is nice but, well, trivial. Logging the latter potentially saves people loads of time repeating your futile quest, or get the OP to head up some maintenance work.

 

I dont' have a hard or fast rule, I wish I did. The longer I do this, the better my "geosense" becomes, and the better decisions I make regarding stuff that's broken vs. stuff that I'm failing to find.

 

Your thoughts appreciated.

 

A DNF simply means you hunted and didn't find the cache. The reason is irrelevant. 90 percent of my DNFs are probably my fault. Doesn't matter. I didn't find it so I log a DNF.

 

People will benefit from my DNFs. Perhaps the owner who rated it one star for difficulty might realize that it should be a bit higher, particularly if others also logged DNFs. If people didn't log them because they were "too thick" to find it, the cache owner won't have the feedback necessary to adjust the difficulty rating.

 

Finders will see it and realize that perhaps it's not a slam dunk, easy find. If I see a low difficulty rating and nothing but smileys in the logs, I'll assume the cache is gone if I don't find it in a few minutes. If I see some DNFs sprinkled among the logs I'll know that I might have to put in a little extra effort into my search.

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I don't often log my DNF's. I usually assume they are my own fault, and that no one in general will benifit from hearing about how thick I am.

 

That said, sometimes you get to a place where you have zero'd in with the gps, taken care to read the previous logs and the hint, and still fail...these will often turn up muggled or missing.

 

How to tell the difference, it seems to me, is really the question. Logging the former is nice but, well, trivial. Logging the latter potentially saves people loads of time repeating your futile quest, or get the OP to head up some maintenance work.

 

I dont' have a hard or fast rule, I wish I did. The longer I do this, the better my "geosense" becomes, and the better decisions I make regarding stuff that's broken vs. stuff that I'm failing to find.

 

Your thoughts appreciated.

 

A DNF simply means you hunted and didn't find the cache. The reason is irrelevant. 90 percent of my DNFs are probably my fault. Doesn't matter. I didn't find it so I log a DNF.

 

People will benefit from my DNFs. Perhaps the owner who rated it one star for difficulty might realize that it should be a bit higher, particularly if others also logged DNFs. If people didn't log them because they were "too thick" to find it, the cache owner won't have the feedback necessary to adjust the difficulty rating.

 

Finders will see it and realize that perhaps it's not a slam dunk, easy find. If I see a low difficulty rating and nothing but smileys in the logs, I'll assume the cache is gone if I don't find it in a few minutes. If I see some DNFs sprinkled among the logs I'll know that I might have to put in a little extra effort into my search.

 

Very well said.

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Do you know that the "rules" used to say you had to take something and that you had to leave something and that you had to write about it in the log book? It didn't say anything about logging online.

 

Just going to weigh in on this thread with my opinion. I don't give a flip in the wind what the rules used to say. Rules change, laws change, everything changes. We aren't playing the game three years ago, we are playing the game now. If the rules change tomorrow, we will be playing by those changes. (or not)

 

I have read the quote posted on here that " The greatest thing about the game is , anyone can play. The worst thing about the game is, anyone can play"

 

where does it say you have to adhere to the above rules?

If you ask me, this quote sums up the worst thing about the game.

 

 

edit to add- You are all free to play the way you want. Then come and post here complaining about the chaos!!

 

And t4e I apologize, I thought the cache you were refering to was yours. Thats what confused me about what you were describing. This is why I believe the cache was archived. You are trying to blame it on DNF's. I don't think that is a valid argument.

 

traffic_cone.gif March 13 by CacheViewer (0 found)

 

Since the current owner has made no status change or updates on this geocache in a timely fashion following the previous Reviewer Note/Disabled Log, this listing is being ARCHIVED. You may request that this listing be unarchived by email, as provided below, once you have addressed the issue of previous note and as long as it meets the current Listing Guidelines.

icon_disabled.gif February 5 by CacheViewer (0 found)

 

Greetings from a volunteer geocaching reviewer,

 

 

***Issues noted that require action from the owner*** Based on previous log entries concerning the conditions of this geocache, this listing is being DISABLED. As the current owner of this geocache this will give you the opportunity to check on the cache and repair or replace it if necessary. Should you decide to perform the required maintenance, you will need to ENABLE this listing after repairs are completed and you may also need to use an "Owner Maintenance" log type to clear any remaining Needs Maintenance attribute icons.

 

 

icon_needsmaint.gif October 25, 2009 by ElectroQTed (5375 found)

 

This cache needs to be put back where the owner originally intended it to be - it's currently not even in the cave. It also needs a new ziplock bag for the logbook - the original one is now on the outside of the lock-n-leak container. Most importantly, a decent set of co-ordinates is needed as they have been about 26m out from the start.

 

This cache was clearly a p.o.c. and the "poster child" for proper logging. If the previous "finders" had properly logged (a NM instead of/in addition to a smiley) it would have never accumulated so many DNF'S

Edited by NeecesandNephews
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where does it say you have to adhere to the above rules?

 

If you ask me, this quote sums up the worst thing about the game.

 

 

selective reading FTL

 

you chose a section of my post that is putting the comment out of the context ....it strictly referred to the logging requirements...which i challenge anyone to show me where it says its mandatory, never mind DNF's, any type of log for that matter

 

if you read further on i clearly stated that there are far more important rules that we need to adhere to

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where does it say you have to adhere to the above rules?

 

If you ask me, this quote sums up the worst thing about the game.

 

 

selective reading FTL

 

you chose a section of my post that is putting the comment out of the context ....it strictly referred to the logging requirements...which i challenge anyone to show me where it says its mandatory, never mind DNF's, any type of log for that matter

 

if you read further on i clearly stated that there are far more important rules that we need to adhere to

 

 

 

Perhaps the word "rules" has no meaning. Are we going to selectively change the Guidelines to read "Important Rules... Not so Important Rules"?? Talk about selective reading. You want to "select" which rules are more important, then criticize me? Thats funny! :)

Edited by NeecesandNephews
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Perhaps the word "rules" has no meaning. Are we going to selectively change the Guidelines to read "Important Rules... Not so Important Rules"?? Talk about selective reading. You want to "select" which rules are more important, then criticize me? Thats funny! :)

 

well than perhaps Groundspeak should hire some geocaching police and track down all the people that find caches and never log on the website

 

its not selective reading by any means, its common sense to distinguish between what is a "suggestion" of how to play the game and what is really a "rule" that needs to be followed

 

again, please show me where it says its "mandatory" to log anything

Edited by t4e
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Perhaps the word "rules" has no meaning. Are we going to selectively change the Guidelines to read "Important Rules... Not so Important Rules"?? Talk about selective reading. You want to "select" which rules are more important, then criticize me? Thats funny! :)

 

well than perhaps Groundspeak should hire some geocaching police and track down all the people that find caches and never log on the website

 

its not selective reading by any means, its common sense to distinguish between what is a "suggestion" of how to play the game and what is really a "rule" that needs to be followed

 

again, please show me where it says its "mandatory" to log anything

 

where does it say you have to adhere to the above rules?

Have you changed your mind about what is a "rule"?

 

This is considered by many to be a "suggestion".

 

 

3.5. Log Book Etiquette

When you find a geocache, write the date of the visit, your username and the experience you had into the log book. You may want to share funny stories about your adventure, or tell about the condition of the cache and the area of the hide. Some people prefer to enter just their name into the log book. Others have special stamps, stickers or paper-punchers that leave signature marks in the pages.

 

This is self-explanatory. Unless you "selectively " choose to ignore the word "rules", or interpret that word, used in that context, to mean something else. You are free to choose to ignore the "rules" and there is no way to enforce them. That doesn't make tham any less important, or any less the "rules". (please refer to my earlier quote about what I think is wrong with the game.)

 

 

What are the rules in Geocaching? 1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value. 2. Write about your find in the cache logbook. 3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

 

I choose to play by what I perceive to be the "rules". I don't care how you play, and am not forcing anyone to play a certain way. Just pointing out many of the posts on this forum are directly related to the various different ways people choose to play, and the chaos that results from so many variations and interpretations.

 

This is getting way off topic as this thread is about DNF's, not about people not logging online.

Edited by NeecesandNephews
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This is getting way off topic as this thread is about DNF's, not about people not logging online.

 

not off topic at all....it is about logging DNF's online

 

as for the rest of it, lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that

 

as they say "opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone's got one" :)

 

having said that perhaps the word of a reviewer has more weight than mine

 

There is no requirement to log a DNF. Actually there is also no requirement to log a Found It either. Many people do not log their finds online.

 

As BQ, I've cached with one person that has not logged a cache in over 3 years but has found thousands. Instead they take a picture of each find. I guess they do not want their stats or activity posted as some people judge that stuff as important.

Edited by t4e
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Perhaps the word "rules" has no meaning. Are we going to selectively change the Guidelines to read "Important Rules... Not so Important Rules"?? Talk about selective reading. You want to "select" which rules are more important, then criticize me? Thats funny! :)

ok, so where are the rules regarding logging?

 

there's only one rule, or guideline rather, which vaguely says that you're only allowed to log a cache as found online once you've signed the physical log. no word about anything else, no other log types, nothing. DNF logs aren't mentioned at all, and it doesn't even say that you have to log a cache as found online once you've signed the log.

 

so, where's the rules you're talking about?

 

Repeating the same thing over and over while ignoring parts of my post where I answer your supposition directly will only convince the dim-witted that you are correct. If you're too lazy to go back and see what I said again, it was:
A true "purist" would not log a find in the examples you bring up.
In other words, no, your leap from logging DNFs being the right thing to do to logging a find "regardless of whether you signed the log or not" is based on extremely flawed logic.

ok, so how is saying that my logic is flawed, without saying why or how, different from trying to "convince the dim-witted that you're correct"?

It's really quite simple. The very first rules of geocaching, for the very first cache, the rules that are still out there today specify that you should write in the logbook.

yes. but the rules don't say anything about DNF logs. so why do you think everyone should log a DNF every time they didn't find a cache? making your own rules now?

Oh, and they also say you should post your experiences online. If you don't find the cache, it is still an experience.

yes. but that still doesn't mean i have to log a DNF, especially not on every single attempt on the same cache. because if i visit a cache 10 times before finally finding it, then all those visits are part of the same experience, hence only one log. plus, it says "you should", not "you have to".

Nope. I see little logic in your argument.

i can see that.

You are wrong. The basic rules of caching say to sign the logbook. Period.

yes, so you're going by what the guidelines say and not by what the log type says. the guidelines don't say anything about DNF logs, so nobody's required to log them, at all.

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I will continue to educate others on the reasons for logging DNFs. But I will not attempt to force anyone to log every single DNF. That seems a bit OCD even for me.

 

I log probably 95% of my attempts, no matter what the outcome. I do not feel bad at all about the 5% or so that I haven't logged. If someone has an issue with me not logging every single attempt, then it is their issue.

 

Yes, you should log most of your attempts. Yes, if you pull up to ground zero and can't find parking, then your DNF might alert others that parking could be an issue. Yes, if you find yourself on the other side of a creek and decide not to try to cross, your DNF will still alert others that they may want to be sure they approach from the correct side of the creek. Yes, if you approach ground zero and there are tons of muggles around, then your DNF would alert others that muggles are an issue.

 

But if you come back 2 hours later and muggles are still there then a subsequent DNF is not necessarily in order. You could just as easily edit your previous DNF if you wanted to mention the new visit. Or a new DNF would be just fine too. But not logging the 2nd visit would be fine as well. It's not really going to add any new information and the world will not come to an end just because you didn't log it.

 

If you don't DNF when you find yourself on the other side of the creek, people can still look at a map and see for themselves that it may be an issue.

 

It's been pointed out a number of times that an increasing number of cachers just load them up in their gps and head out the door. Fewer and fewer people bother reading the cache page.

 

Failure to log a few DNFs is not the worst thing that can happen. If you can convince someone to at least start logging their DNFs, then be content. Don't continue berating them because they're not logging them exactly the way you would.

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First off I would like to point out that I am not bi-polar. I have read through the posts, the Guidelines, the "rules" and have come to the conclusion there is a "flaw" in my own position.

 

I am man enough to admit when I need a "thought correction" and take it.

 

Since dfx and t4e are "tag-teaming" I would like to address them both. (don't take that the wrong way, I admire that you do things together :lol: )

 

I am going to make a few "corrections" in your quote, just because I don't want to have to type it all again. I don't do it to cause offense.

 

ok, so where are the rules regarding logging?

 

there's only one three rules, or guideline rather, which vaguely says that you're only allowed to log a cache as found online once you've signed the physical log. no word about anything else, no other log types, nothing. DNF logs aren't mentioned at all, and it doesn't even does say that you have to log a cache as found online once you've signed the log.

 

As a "rule" I would argue that you "have to".(if you are following the "rules" to the letter)

 

However, the flaw in my position regarding DNF's has become apparent after thinking about these "rules". I lost track of the subject of the thread in my haste, shot from the hip, and blew my toe off.

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

 

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

 

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

 

It is obvious that Rule 1 assumes that you found the cache.

 

It is obvious rule 2 assumes you found the cache.

 

Is it too much to think rule 3 also assumes you found the cache?

 

Just asking if this is sound logic.

 

Given that I am applying that logic, as much as I hate to admit it, it would seem there is no requirement to log a DNF at all.

 

I am not saying that the logic I pointed out is "etched in stone". Just that I am human, and made a mistake applying the "rules" as I perceived them, to a situation I don't now believe they address.

 

Feel free to carry on the debate while I go sit in the corner with my dunce cap on. :)

 

I apologize for taking the debate off track!

 

(I still log DNF's as a courtesy to other cachers who will follow, and to CO's who appreciate the info.) See post #12, I should have stopped there!

 

edit to correct typo

Edited by NeecesandNephews
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Look people. It's simple.

 

Geocaching.com is a LISTING SERVICE. It's not "the game". It's a listing service for game pieces.

Groundspeak has GUIDELINES for their listing service. They are GUIDELINES, not hard fast rules. And the guidelines are ONLY for what they will list and what they won't.

Nobody can be forced to log DNFs, or finds for that matter. It's a courtesy for a cacher to log DNFs, nothing more. It's helpful information, not a badge of shame (though some people like to make it seem so by listing cachers stats).

 

If you want to log DNFs then do it. If you don't want to, then don't. You won't be penalized either way by Groundspeak. You might be shunned by your local caching community though.

 

There's no reason for angst. No reason for insults. No reason for stirring the pot.

 

Again, Geocaching.com is a LISTING SERVICE which is inclusive in listing founds logged and DNFs logged. It doesn't pretend to have every ounce of information about a cache. They don't have cache police. They don't penalize people for not logging.

 

Nuff said.

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First off I would like to point out that I am not bi-polar. I have read through the posts, the Guidelines, the "rules" and have come to the conclusion there is a "flaw" in my own position.

 

I am man enough to admit when I need a "thought correction" and take it.

 

Since dfx and t4e are "tag-teaming" I would like to address them both. (don't take that the wrong way, I admire that you do things together :lol: )

 

I am going to make a few "corrections" in your quote, just because I don't want to have to type it all again. I don't do it to cause offense.

 

ok, so where are the rules regarding logging?

 

there's only one three rules, or guideline rather, which vaguely says that you're only allowed to log a cache as found online once you've signed the physical log. no word about anything else, no other log types, nothing. DNF logs aren't mentioned at all, and it doesn't even does say that you have to log a cache as found online once you've signed the log.

 

As a "rule" I would argue that you "have to".(if you are following the "rules" to the letter)

 

However, the flaw in my position regarding DNF's has become apparent after thinking about these "rules". I lost track of the subject of the thread in my haste, shot from the hip, and blew my toe off.

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

 

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

 

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

 

It is obvious that Rule 1 assumes that you found the cache.

 

It is obvious rule 2 assumes you found the cache.

 

Is it too much to think rule 3 also assumes you found the cache?

 

Just asking if this is sound logic.

 

Given that I am applying that logic, as much as I hate to admit it, it would seem there is no requirement to log a DNF at all.

 

I am not saying that the logic I pointed out is "etched in stone". Just that I am human, and made a mistake applying the "rules" as I perceived them, to a situation I don't now believe they address.

 

Feel free to carry on the debate while I go sit in the corner with my dunce cap on. :)

 

I apologize for taking the debate off track!

 

(I still log DNF's as a courtesy to other cachers who will follow, and to CO's who appreciate the info.) See post #12, I should have stopped there!

 

edit to correct typo

I had written a long response to where you said that you don't give a flip over what the rules used to be. Then I didn't post it because it wasn't quite on topic as to whether you should log a DNF. But since you still want to find a "rule" to log DNFs even if there really isn't one I think I will put in my two cents now.

 

The "rules" in the FAQ are not meant to be a list of actions you must do or not do when geocaching. They are are simply a summary of what most people do when they find a geocache. It is there to let newbies know what this geocaching thing is all about.

 

The rules in the FAQ had there origin in the USENET post where Dave Ulmer announced that he had hidden the first geocache. In it, he tells the finders of the cache what to do; "Take some stuff, leave

some stuff! Record it all in the log book. Have Fun!"

 

Later Jeremy paraphrased Dave in writing the "rules" in the Geocaching FAQ. As pointed out, for nearly 8 years, these "rules" didn't even mention sharing your experience online.

 

In 2008, Groundspeak decided to update the rules for some reason. Certainly, the increase in the number of micros meant trading had become less important. It probably didn't make sense to have 2/3 of the rules be about trading. Trading was rewritten as one rule that made it clear that trading was optional and at the same time tries to encourage trading something of equal or greater value to slow down the degradation of swag in caches. This left only 2 rules and TPTB probably thought that they needed a 3rd rule. Since Geocaching.com success was due in part to the online logs, which not only allowed geocachers to keep track of the caches they found but also created a community where cachers shared there experiences, they added a rule to encourage the sharing of experiences online.

 

Note that the new rule doesn't say "Log a find online". It says "Share your experience online". It is possible that they wrote it this way because it was also meant to encourage logging DNF when you didn't find the cache. I like to think that it was written this way to avoid making a statement that could be construed as a rule for keeping score using the online find log. Unless Jeremy wants to respond, we won't really ever know why the wording is what it is.

 

The "rules" in the FAQ are not enforceable. Unless you have a certified appraiser standing at each cache to check that people have left something of equal or greater value, you can't enforce the trading rule. Cache owners can delete online logs if they check and find that someone didn't write about their find in the physical log book. But Groundspeak has no way to force a cache owner to do this. And I suspect, they probably don't intend for the rule to be enforced this way. There are many cases where a cacher is unable to write in the log book yet they found the cache. If a cacher doesn't share their experience online what are you going to do? Are you going to find where they wrote in the log book and erase it?

 

You may feel that just because a rule is unenforceable doesn't mean that you don't have to do it. I take a different approach. If the rule is unenforceable then it is only meant as a suggestion. Read the rules in FAQ as suggestions. Follow the suggestions if you like. Don't worry if someone else doesn't follow them. The most important instruction that Dave Ulmer gave is still the only rule I have for geocaching: "Have Fun!"

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Toz, for once I am just going to agree with you. I have made much noise over the 'rules" in the past. Looking back I can see where it made absolutely no difference.

 

For whatever reasons... purity, commercialism, conflict avoidance... (you choose to insert your opinion here), TPTB have chosen to make this a GeoBurgerKing. Have it your way. I can't even begin to say I know why. Or further, why it matters.

 

It seems that everyone plays the way they like. The resulting chaos is something I can easily ignore, because I am too intent on playing it "my way". I realize the folly in even posting an opinion here.

 

What matter is it that there are rules if everyone can't agree on what they say, or others choose to disregard them?? None!!

 

The resulting chaos is of our own collective making. Posters will come and go lamenting the "rules violations", "listing violations" ect. Debates will ensue, without concensus or agreement. Life, and the game, go on. The "spirit" and origins of the game are lost to the wind. Sadly.

 

I am going to continue to play, because I enjoy it. Thats the whole purpose isn't it? If the way I choose to play doesn't please you, or vice-versa...I guess we need a reminder of whose happiness we are playing for.

 

I still love the way you pick my posts out to "get verbose" on. It makes me feel special! :) You might read my last post again... I conceded that no such rule about logging DNF's existed, and I mistakenly applied the "rules" I adhere to, to a situation that did not warrant it. I do, however, take exception to the "rules" as they are posted. If TPTB had not intended to hold them out as such, surely they could have chosen another word to describe them in that quote. As you pointed out, unless Jeremy chooses to clarify the reasons, it is pointless for us to debate them.

edit to add- I suspect this had a lot to do with it.

 

Since Geocaching.com success was due in part to the online logs
Edited by NeecesandNephews
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If caching is REALLY "not about the numbers", why do people care about OTHER PEOPLE'S DNF count?

 

Please dont leave snide remarks, Im new here; and Im trying to learn!

Hi KMart, welcome to the forums. Typing in ALL CAPS is oft considered shouting, which can lead to the type of snide remarks you are trying to avoid. Just sayin'. To address your opening question: If I look, and don't find, I post a DNF. If I drive up and ground zero is hosting some sort of muggle fest, I'll drive away and just post a note. Multiple visits in the same day will likely just get clumped together as a single entry, either a find or a DNF, depending on my success. To address your second question, (which I quoted), I doubt you'll find very many folks who honestly care what the current numbers are for other cachers. However, there are many cachers who care, strongly, about the methods employed by others. These folks are often mistakenly accused of caring about numbers. They really only care about methods.

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So how do people feel about using a "note" instead of a "DNF". Does it matter? If so, how?

 

Any feedback is better than none, but why not just use the appropriate tool provided by the website?

 

I have had cachers use the note option to report that they thought that our cache might be missing. Personally, if people have an issue with the DNF (for whatever reason), I'm OK with the note field if it gets people to report a potential problem. It shows up in the logs so others will read that there may be an issue.

 

Do COs on this thread want to see that blue frowny face? No one else is saying....sure, whatever - use the note option or the DNF whatever floats your boat, as long as you let me know about your experience, and the reason you couldn't find the cache.

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Do COs on this thread want to see that blue frowny face? No one else is saying....sure, whatever - use the note option or the DNF whatever floats your boat, as long as you let me know about your experience, and the reason you couldn't find the cache.

i don't mind seeing the frowny face on my caches as long as it serves its purpose. a DNF log popping up tells me that someone has spent some time looking for the cache and still couldn't find it, therefore telling me there's a chance it may actually be gone. i'm not as worried about the cache being gone if it's just a note being posted, as this tells me that they themselves don't consider it to be "possibly missing", but rather that they failed due to other circumstances.

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If I don't feel like I made a great effort - I will not log a DNF - if I know I will come back soon - just find it with a significant effort. I don't want to have other cachers think it is not there or avoid it cause it might be to hard. I only go after caches that take me somewhere so it is the somewhere I love not necessarily the cache and I do like to comment on the somewhere. I do log DNF if I did a good job looking and that lets folks know it is at least some challenge.

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A friend that just started caching asked me this very question yesterday. Here's what I said:

 

Sometimes I get ahead of myself and just load the co-ordinates and go. I get to the GZ and maybe it's a thicket or a train caboose at a museum or something and it occurs to me that I don't know even the size of what I looking for (I only read the hint after I've been DNF'd) or maybe it's a park and there's just too many muggles. Whatever. I will not DNF as I don't feel I've put in a proper effort. If I come back and try again with no success based off of actually searching, then I'll DNF and mention that I did a pass earlier but didn't search. So there.

 

But ya, there are a couple cachers in my area that NEVER, EVER DNF. They write notes. That does annoy me.

 

What is worse though is the people that DNF, but because they've found the spot and the cache is AWOL they still log as a find. No log signing, no find!

 

so sayeth the mike,

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But ya, there are a couple cachers in my area that NEVER, EVER DNF. They write notes. That does annoy me.

you can have that the other way around too. somebody posting a NM log on a cache because it hasn't been found in a while and they think it may be missing, asking the owner to check if it's still there. so the owner goes and checks, and finds it to be still in the right place. now the owner goes and posts a note, telling people that the cache is still there. they don't post a "performed maintenance", because they feel they didn't really do any maintenance, they just checked on it.

 

which is all fine with me of course, if it wasn't for the NM attribute. those COs usually don't know how the attribute works and so the attribute will stay there, even though the cache is fine (until somebody tells them how to take it off).

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Of course I log DNFs. I'm just as pleased with those as I am of smilies. If I return to the area, its easy for me to pull up the ones I need to re-search for. It also fires me up to try a little harder.

 

<Sarcastic opinion on> Cachers who do not log DNFs (and claim they've never DNF'd) are the same people that live in mommy's basement, all dressed up in their precious Star Trek uniforms. They're there for your amusement - their alternate reality doesn't really matter. <Sarcastic opinion off>

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Give it a reasonable search. If you don't find...log a DNF. I wouldn't log more than 2 in a row, however. You don't want to be annoying. Everyone KNOWS you can't find it after a double DNF. :) However, I've logged up to 3 or 4 DNFs throughout a period of time on a cache or two. It's nice to have it as part of the cache history. The reason people get mad at others for not logging DNFs are probably for several reasons: 1) it can be about the numbers, 2) if you are a cache owner, you want to see DNFs so you know if your cache is missing or if you need to change the difficulty rating, 3) you can see how much traffic the cache is getting (if it's never logged, you may think your cache is no good and no one is coming to find it), etc. etc.

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I'll log multiple DNFs on the same cache, but I don't think I'd log a 2nd DNF if it would be directly after my previous DNF. In those cases, I'd probably just edit the older DNF.

 

Latest cache I multiple DNFed is a multi where I couldn't find stage 4. Went back out after it was replaced and DNFed stage 5. Logged both attempts.

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Dee enn eff

To the tune of Be Our Guest

 

Approaching ground zero, I pause in my stride

Geocaching treasure will soon be within my sight.

Another find before some snacks, looking 'round,

Consult logs past and hints decrypted - but

Nothing's here!

 

Dee enn eff! Dee enn eff!

 

You put my search skills to the test

I look low and then high up in the tree

Where I even check a nest -

A fishing lure!

I ask without reserve

Such torment I deserve?!?

Is it time enough?

I must seem suspicious

To a squirrel eating discarded old knishes

On a thorn, there is a chance

I have torn a hole into my pants

And to nearby muggles I must look distressed!

Seeing no cache at this venue

I should know enough when to

 

Dee enn eff!

Dee enn eff!

Dee enn eff!

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After reading the forums quite a bit lately, Ive noticed a lot of animosity towards those who don't log DNF's.

 

DNFs have two purposes for people other than whoever can't find it.

1. It lets the cache owner know there might be an issue.

2. It lets other finders know there might be an issue.

 

With that said.. Many cachers mistake notes for DNFs.. Consider:

  1. For the love of Bobb, do not log a DNF if you didn't look for the thing! I swear, if I get one more DNF that says something like "I got here and there was a muggle so I didn't look" then I will scream. If you didn't look and you still want to post a message, it's a NOTE, not a DNF.
  2. If you look for something for 5 minutes, get bored, have to pee, run out of daylight, whatever, once again, it's a NOTE, not a DNF.
  3. If you try to get towards the location and the road is blocked by a gate/hobo/ambulance/dead squirrel and turn back, it's a NOTE.

With that said, a DNF is this: You've spent a significant amount of time looking for a container, based on what type of cache it is - if you're looking for a lightpole micro and you're there for 20 minutes, it's a good sign to DNF. If you're in a high brush area in the woods and an hour has gone by, you can DNF. If you find what looks like a half eaten baggie after a 30 minute search where the only good hide location for a peanutbutter jar was the now-empty hole in the tree, it's a good sign that you can DNF it.

 

Now, if I were to DNF and log that DNF on tuesday, go back wednesday and nothing had changed, then there's no reason to log the DNF again. But if you DNF on tuesday, go back 28 days later, 15 people have found it and you DNF, feel free to log your DNF, make a joke about your frustration, and then email the cache owner for a hint. Or, if you DNF on tuesday, go back on thursday, three more DNFs have been logged and you now find swag on the ground, something has changed, your log will be important new information, and I'd like to see it again.

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After reading the forums quite a bit lately, Ive noticed a lot of animosity towards those who don't log DNF's.

 

DNFs have two purposes for people other than whoever can't find it.

1. It lets the cache owner know there might be an issue.

2. It lets other finders know there might be an issue.

 

With that said.. Many cachers mistake notes for DNFs.. Consider:

  1. For the love of Bobb, do not log a DNF if you didn't look for the thing! I swear, if I get one more DNF that says something like "I got here and there was a muggle so I didn't look" then I will scream. If you didn't look and you still want to post a message, it's a NOTE, not a DNF.
  2. If you look for something for 5 minutes, get bored, have to pee, run out of daylight, whatever, once again, it's a NOTE, not a DNF.
  3. If you try to get towards the location and the road is blocked by a gate/hobo/ambulance/dead squirrel and turn back, it's a NOTE.

With that said, a DNF is this: You've spent a significant amount of time looking for a container, based on what type of cache it is - if you're looking for a lightpole micro and you're there for 20 minutes, it's a good sign to DNF. If you're in a high brush area in the woods and an hour has gone by, you can DNF. If you find what looks like a half eaten baggie after a 30 minute search where the only good hide location for a peanutbutter jar was the now-empty hole in the tree, it's a good sign that you can DNF it.

 

Now, if I were to DNF and log that DNF on tuesday, go back wednesday and nothing had changed, then there's no reason to log the DNF again. But if you DNF on tuesday, go back 28 days later, 15 people have found it and you DNF, feel free to log your DNF, make a joke about your frustration, and then email the cache owner for a hint. Or, if you DNF on tuesday, go back on thursday, three more DNFs have been logged and you now find swag on the ground, something has changed, your log will be important new information, and I'd like to see it again.

 

I'm in agreement with fly46.

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*I know that some puritans will claim that we do have rules for logging a find online. They should re-read the "rules" carefully. The "rules" given in the Geocaching.com FAQ say

  1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.
  2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.
  3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

So while these say to write something in the cache log book they don't indicate thay you may only log your experience at www.geocaching.com if you have done so, nor do they specify which type of log to use if you do log your experience online. In truth one does not have to log anything online, despite what the rules say. (I tried once to enforce the rule to log online by crosssing out the names in my cache logs that had not posted a find online, but it was ineffective; and it was unfair because I had no way to do something similar for all the DNFs that didn't get logged online).

 

From the guidelines:

Logging of All Physical Caches

Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed.

I would say -although English is not my first language- that this is equivalent to:

 

Geocaches can not be logged online as Found unless the physical log has been signed.

 

:unsure:

 

What about if I find a geocache and the log is soaked? That has happened to me before...

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