Germans and Virtuals?

[+simpjkee]

I've got no angst towards Germans or anything, but I've seen quite a few comments relating to Germans and the phantom logging of Virtual caches here on the forums. I've also noticed an odd proportion of Virtual cache logs by German cachers in my area. When I viewed the profile of one such virtual cache logger from Germany, they had apparently visited over 300 virtuals and it was obvious many (if not all) of them were phantom logs. So what's the reason behind Germans phantom logging virtuals? Are they 'lost in translation'? Do they realize they are phantom logging them? Can someone shed some more light on this for me? I'm curious.

[GermanSailor]

So what's the reason behind Germans phantom logging virtuals? Are they 'lost in translation'? Do they realize they are phantom logging them? Can someone shed some more light on this for me? I'm curious.

It was not always clear, that "phantom logging" (a phrase I never heard before) is frowned upon.

Several "couch potato" bookmark lists also gave the impression that virtual visiting of virtual caches is okay. I don't see what the big deal about it is. But you are not supposed to log them. In the German part of the forum there is a topic about it.

 

GermanSailor

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

It's quite unfair to accuse 'German geocachers' overall for the habits of a few.

 

I know a number of German geocachers who do not log what they have not found.

 

My belief is that the vast majority do not.

[+simpjkee]

It's quite unfair to accuse 'German geocachers' overall for the habits of a few.

 

I know a number of German geocachers who do not log what they have not found.

 

My belief is that the vast majority do not.

 

I'm not suggesting that German cachers 'overall' do this. Saying "German cachers" does not mean "all German cachers". The cachers who do this are 'cachers' and they are 'German', hence why I refer to this group as 'German cachers'.

 

Either way, it is not my intent to be unfair or accusatory. I do intend to get a better understanding of the phenomenon.

 

Fair?

 

BTW, I also believe that the vast majority are not "couch potato" cachers.

Edited March 16, 2010 by simpjkee

[+simpjkee]

So what's the reason behind Germans phantom logging virtuals? Are they 'lost in translation'? Do they realize they are phantom logging them? Can someone shed some more light on this for me? I'm curious.

It was not always clear, that "phantom logging" (a phrase I never heard before) is frowned upon.

Several "couch potato" bookmark lists also gave the impression that virtual visiting of virtual caches is okay. I don't see what the big deal about it is. But you are not supposed to log them. In the German part of the forum there is a topic about it.

 

GermanSailor

 

I was not aware of that thread. Thank you for pointing it out. That does shed a lot of light on the issue. I am going to use a web translator to see what the replies say.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

It's quite unfair to accuse 'German geocachers' overall for the habits of a few.

 

I know a number of German geocachers who do not log what they have not found.

 

My belief is that the vast majority do not.

 

I'm not suggesting that German cachers 'overall' do this. Saying "German cachers" does not mean "all German cachers". The cachers who do this are 'cachers' and they are 'German', hence why I refer to this group as 'German cachers'.

 

Either way, it is not my intent to be unfair or accusatory. I do intend to get a better understanding of the phenomenon.

 

Fair?

So it is fair then to say that American geocachers love micros because some of us do?

[+simpjkee]

It's quite unfair to accuse 'German geocachers' overall for the habits of a few.

 

I know a number of German geocachers who do not log what they have not found.

 

My belief is that the vast majority do not.

 

I'm not suggesting that German cachers 'overall' do this. Saying "German cachers" does not mean "all German cachers". The cachers who do this are 'cachers' and they are 'German', hence why I refer to this group as 'German cachers'.

 

Either way, it is not my intent to be unfair or accusatory. I do intend to get a better understanding of the phenomenon.

 

Fair?

So it is fair then to say that American geocachers love micros because some of us do?

 

Please don't troll in my topic.

[+Markwell]

I don't know that it's necessarily trolling so much as proving a point by showing what a similar statement would be. Micros are frowned upon by some people (just read the threads). Many Americans are devout defenders of all cache types, including micros - no matter where they are placed. Many of these defenders are quite vocal.

 

I think it is an apt comparison that there are some cachers in Germany who had a history of armchair logging of virutals. The problem was addressed by MissJenn in this thread last August.

 

Is there something in the culture of one particular country - most likely not. However I think there is a large caching community in Germany and when you increase a bell curve you get more and more raw numbers of the fringes of the bell curve.

[+Walts Hunting]

He didn't say most Germans were phantom loggers. He commented that there were a number of Germans doing phantom logging. Those are very different statement. That point has been mentioned a few times in these forums.

[+BlueDeuce]

He didn't say most Germans were phantom loggers. He commented that there were a number of Germans doing phantom logging. Those are very different statement. That point has been mentioned a few times in these forums.

 

Enough to have a pinned topic about it.

[+simpjkee]

I don't know that it's necessarily trolling so much as proving a point by showing what a similar statement would be. Micros are frowned upon by some people (just read the threads). Many Americans are devout defenders of all cache types, including micros - no matter where they are placed. Many of these defenders are quite vocal.

 

He knows what my question is. If he wasn't sure then I think I cleared it up in post #4. As I said before, I'm not referring to German cachers as a whole. I'm referring to a group of cachers from Germany who seem to be more apt to couch potato log Virtuals than others. I know that others have this same observation due to the various comments about Germans and armchair logging virtuals here in the forums. I don't see his question as similar to my question.

 

Here in America, it is pretty clear what the requirements for logging a virtual are. For the sake of this discussion, look at the number of posts in the other nations forums as a guide to large caching communities. The tops are UK, Canada, South Africa, Spain, and Germany. Now of all those countries, only one has Groundspeak found it necessary to pin a topic about couch potato logs on virtuals and that country is Germany. This along with the comments in the forums seems to me to be fairly sufficient evidence that there is a misunderstanding within the German culture about the logging of Virtual caches.

 

Now if a German said "What's with Americans loving micro caches?" that would not be similar because micro caches are loved by cachers in different cultures throughout the world. Now if in theory all cultures agreed that micro caches are no good except for a segment of Americans, then his statement would be similar to my statement about the segment of Germans being couch potato loggers. This is obviously not the case, therefor his statement is not similar to mine.

 

Moving on:

 

Is there something in the culture of one particular country - most likely not. However I think there is a large caching community in Germany and when you increase a bell curve you get more and more raw numbers of the fringes of the bell curve.

 

I disagree. Above I showed the evidence that suggests that couch potato logging is a bigger issue in the German culture as compared to other cultures around the world. I'll add also that I typically will look at profiles of cachers whose names I don't recognize. Overwhelmingly the find logs on Virtuals in my area are from Americans and Germans. I have yet to see an obvious armchair find from someone from Canada, Spain (in fact I don't think I have ever seen a log from a Spainard), UK, or South Africa(again don't think I have ever seen a log from a South American African). If couch potato logging of virtuals is a worldwide issue, I would see a relative amount of couch potato logs from all countries. A couple from Canada, a number of them from the UK, a couple from Spain, and a couple from South Africa. This is not the case. Overwhelmingly they come from Germany.

 

There is some misunderstanding in the German geocaching culture that led to worldwide couch potato logs from Germany. What this misunderstanding is and why it has occurred is what I'm trying to figure out.

 

Thanks for posting the thread German Sailor referred to. It's a good thread.

Edited March 16, 2010 by simpjkee

[+Castle Mischief]

He didn't say most Germans were phantom loggers. He commented that there were a number of Germans doing phantom logging. Those are very different statement. That point has been mentioned a few times in these forums.

 

Enough to have a pinned topic about it.

 

Exactly. Of all the times that I can recall the topic of loging Virtual caches and never visiting in the last three years, for whatever reason, the loggers were based in Germany.

[4wheelin_fool]

They may not all be from Germany. I've logged a few virts (that I did visit) with "Greetings from Germany" because I thought it was humorous.

[+narcissa]

I don't know why it is that the armchair loggers seem to come mostly from Germany, but I've seen some good Virtuals get archived as a result. There are also many reports of German cachers solving puzzles and logging phantom finds.

[+briansnat]

What I've always found odd about this is that I was always under the impression the Europeans and Germans in particular where generally far more active than the average American. I would have thought most of the couch potato logging would come from the US, being that couch surfing is practically a national sport here.

Edited March 16, 2010 by briansnat

[avroair]

Does it have anything to do with having the largest WW2 POW camp in the United States?

 

Camp Florence, Arizona

[AZcachemeister]

The only thing stopping me from posting a 'Needs Archived' log 'due to an inactive owner' on those virtuals is my own intention of actually eventually visiting the site and posting a 'legal' find.

 

Apparently there is a network the Germans are hooked into that the Chileans and Japanese are not aware of.

[+Isonzo Karst]

So what's the reason behind Germans phantom logging virtuals?

 

By far the largest group of virtual caches that were originally designed to be logged as couch potato caches were German. The tradition of the couch potato virt was mostly German. And the couch potato caches were heavily bookmarked. It was part of the caching tradition. It persists.

 

I wonder if the German listing site is still publishing couch potato virts?

[+Happy Bubbles]

Finding information online and doing a couch-potato log is one thing, but what about virtuals that ask you to upload a picture? In my opinion, there`s no excuse for that. There`s no misunderstanding - it`s just cheating!

 

These lazy loggers are getting fun virtuals archived and ruining them for everyone! See this cache or this cache for examples. There are tons of virtuals with absentee owners out there that are still fun to visit and log. If it weren`t for these cheaters the caches could last a long time and be enjoyed by cachers for years to come, but instead they`re getting archived. Boo!

 

I wish I could adopt some of these orphaned virtuals!

[+narcissa]

Finding information online and doing a couch-potato log is one thing, but what about virtuals that ask you to upload a picture? In my opinion, there`s no excuse for that. There`s no misunderstanding - it`s just cheating!

 

These lazy loggers are getting fun virtuals archived and ruining them for everyone! See this cache or this cache for examples. There are tons of virtuals with absentee owners out there that are still fun to visit and log. If it weren`t for these cheaters the caches could last a long time and be enjoyed by cachers for years to come, but instead they`re getting archived. Boo!

 

I wish I could adopt some of these orphaned virtuals!

 

I agree. Whenever I cache somewhere new (to me), the virtuals are at the top of my to-do list because I know it's a matter of time before the jerks get them all archived.

[+Chrysalides]

My take on this : it's a regional thing, and newcomers believe it is a legitimate and acceptable thing to do because others in their community do it. Most of them don't do it to "cheat". Fairly recently Groundspeak has taken a definite stance against the practice, and hopefully news will spread and the practice will change, mainly because, as has been pointed out, it is causing many virtuals to be archived.

[GermanSailor]

I wonder if the German listing site is still publishing couch potato virts?

There is no "German listing site". Everybody, worldwide logs in to Geocaching.com, there are German reviewers but the site is the same you use.

 

GermanSailor

[+ElliPirelli]

Blame the German Volunteer Reviewers for this.

 

A lot of German virtuals were just couch potato caches. One couldn't visit there, you just had to solve the mystery and answer the questions.

 

Those caches nowadays seem all to be archived.

But for Germans it wasn't always clear, that one is supposed to visit the site.

Mostly it is newbies, who don't frequent the forums, be it this, the German part or the Green Forum, Geoclub.de. There it is already often discussed, that those virtuals are virtual boxes, not virtual visits.

Which wasn't always clear.

 

It is up to you as an American virtual owner to aks questions as proof of visiting the location, which can't be found on the internet. And to delete bogus logs.

 

So in my view the logs of cachers, who haven't visited the site are a translation problem. It was habit, to have virtual caches as a mystery without visiting a site.

 

I also take objection to blame all Germans!

[+Isonzo Karst]

There is no "German listing site"

 

Ah, I thought that there was a significant use of an alternate site; there's modest use of a couple in the US, one in particular lists a lot of virtual and locationless caches.

 

There were a number of geography based puzzle virts, mostly German (though I can recall 2 in the US.)

 

They had automated email links; you emailed a one word correct answer, and got a return email with a "certificate of accomplishment". This authorized you to log the cache. These were published early in the game.

Their existence drove the local, largely German, custom of seeing virts as puzzles, the challenge being to figure out what was at the coords, not to actually visit.

 

I'd guess the news of change, the insistence on an actual visit is growing slowly in that caching community.

[Mr.Yuck]

So what's the reason behind Germans phantom logging virtuals?

 

By far the largest group of virtual caches that were originally designed to be logged as couch potato caches were German. The tradition of the couch potato virt was mostly German. And the couch potato caches were heavily bookmarked. It was part of the caching tradition. It persists.

 

I wonder if the German listing site is still publishing couch potato virts?

 

I agree with this. Plus a lot of Monkey-see, Monkey do. I agree with what others have said in the past about the language barrier and the literal translation of virtual into the German language also.

 

Hey, I just found out yesterday that the letterboxing site Atlasquest.com has over 25,000 (yes, 25,000) armchair "virtual letterboxes" designed to be done at home on the computer. And you get finds, and there is a leaderboard. So have at it Germans I mean armchair loggers.

[+Castle Mischief]

Hey, I just found out yesterday that the letterboxing site Atlasquest.com has over 25,000 (yes, 25,000) armchair "virtual letterboxes" designed to be done at home on the computer. And you get finds, and there is a leaderboard. So have at it Germans I mean armchair loggers.

 

That's just weird. Is there a virtual "stamp"?

[Mr.Yuck]

Hey, I just found out yesterday that the letterboxing site Atlasquest.com has over 25,000 (yes, 25,000) armchair "virtual letterboxes" designed to be done at home on the computer. And you get finds, and there is a leaderboard. So have at it Germans I mean armchair loggers.

 

That's just weird. Is there a virtual "stamp"?

 

Absolutely. The "lame" ones just give you a jpeg pulled off the internet. But plenty of people carve a nice stamp for their virtual, and upload a picture of it. Including the geocaching.com forum participant who helped explain these virts to me.

[+Castle Mischief]

Hey, I just found out yesterday that the letterboxing site Atlasquest.com has over 25,000 (yes, 25,000) armchair "virtual letterboxes" designed to be done at home on the computer. And you get finds, and there is a leaderboard. So have at it Germans I mean armchair loggers.

 

That's just weird. Is there a virtual "stamp"?

 

Absolutely. The "lame" ones just give you a jpeg pulled off the internet. But plenty of people carve a nice stamp for their virtual, and upload a picture of it. Including the geocaching.com forum participant who helped explain these virts to me.

 

(I'd respond, but I'm currently having convulsions and random twitching episodes. Can't tell if it's my brain's unwillingness to accept the concept or just the concentrated energy shot I had this morning. Below, you'll find a graphic representation of said "fit". Simply print each image and attach to the pages of a pack of post-it-notes and flip them in rapid succession.)

 

[Mr.Yuck]

Hey, I just found out yesterday that the letterboxing site Atlasquest.com has over 25,000 (yes, 25,000) armchair "virtual letterboxes" designed to be done at home on the computer. And you get finds, and there is a leaderboard. So have at it Germans I mean armchair loggers.

 

That's just weird. Is there a virtual "stamp"?

 

Absolutely. The "lame" ones just give you a jpeg pulled off the internet. But plenty of people carve a nice stamp for their virtual, and upload a picture of it. Including the geocaching.com forum participant who helped explain these virts to me.

 

(I'd respond, but I'm currently having convulsions and random twitching episodes. Can't tell if it's my brain's unwillingness to accept the concept or just the concentrated energy shot I had this morning. Below, you'll find a graphic representation of said "fit". Simply print each image and attach to the pages of a pack of post-it-notes and flip them in rapid succession.)

 

 

Sorry to hear that. I never do those 2 ounce energy shots. However, they did once have caffeine-free ones up at the counter on clearance for 99 cents, so I tried it. I figured there was no point in it, and I was correct.

[+simpjkee]

I also take objection to blame all Germans!

 

I don't think anyone is trying to "blame all Germans". At least, I'm not.

[+narcissa]

I blame the Germans for everything wrong in geocaching. And curling.

[+Snoogans]

I blame the Germans for everything wrong in geocaching. And curling.

 

I see you joined on 2005, but you must have missed the memo... In the summer of 2006 I officially became the cause of everything wrong in geocaching. Heck, I've destroyed the spirit of geocaching in whole geocaching continuums infected by my ideas.

[+narcissa]

I blame the Germans for everything wrong in geocaching. And curling.

 

I see you joined on 2005, but you must have missed the memo... In the summer of 2006 I officially became the cause of everything wrong in geocaching. Heck, I've destroyed the spirit of geocaching in whole geocaching continuums infected by my ideas.

 

How can someone with a name like Snoogans possible be wrong or evil?

[GermanSailor]

I blame the Germans for everything wrong in geocaching. And curling.

I blame a single German for all my DNFs.

 

GermanSailor

[+Snoogans]

I blame the Germans for everything wrong in geocaching. And curling.

 

I see you joined on 2005, but you must have missed the memo... In the summer of 2006 I officially became the cause of everything wrong in geocaching. Heck, I've destroyed the spirit of geocaching in whole geocaching continuums infected by my ideas.

 

How can someone with a name like Snoogans possible be wrong or evil?

 

Like most evil doers I was just trying to make a big splash in the pool to have some fun. Uhhh, but some of the girls got their hair wet.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2010 by Snoogans