Caches on Foot Paths/dirt roads

[+cagney37]

This is for cagney37 who raised the issue about being asked for permission details. As you've already got an agreement with the conservators of the AONB to place caches there without seeking prior permission it would be very useful to have a formal agreement to place in the GAGB landowner database so other cachers know that caching in the AONB is approved. I'm sure this would be appreciated by everyone. It would also be helpful to us reviewers as then we wouldn't need to ask for proof of permission each time but just check the cache meets the agreement and so can be published. If a map of the boundary of the AONB can be obtained I can create a Google maps overlay for the GAGB database so everyone can see the exact location.

So may I suggest that you approach your contact and see if such an agreement can be negotiated?

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

 

From my discussions last year with the Conservators they are not willing to sign an overarching agreement with the GC community. Indeed, from a response that I have received separately, from another senior GC reviewer, it would now seem that 'blanket agreements' covering the placing of caches in SSSIs/Nature Parks etc are no longer being taken at face value.

 

Quote In on case a cache located in a park under a Blanket Agreement with the local Council, was treated in the same way your caches have been. Due to the Park being designated a SSSI. The cache in question happened to be located up a tree, in which Bats were roosting. As these are a Protected species, disturbing them can result in a fine of up to £20,000. Unquote

 

It would seem that reviewers now want the location/siting of each cache to be approved in advance by the SSSI land manager - even when there is a 'blanket agreement' in place. I have suggested that this revised policy needs to be published so that new cache-owners know what is expected of them before a cache will be listed. Personally, I think this change of policy resulting from the reviewers' access to MAGICmap is a massive over-reaction.

 

In my view, if an individual cacher has met with the land owner, obtained written approval from him to place caches on his land and only inform him of the location of the caches once they have been listed, then all bases are covered as far as GC.Com is concerned?

 

We should not forget in all of this that we are just talking about the siting of a small plastic box in an area of natural environmental cover. I would urge the reviewing community to adopt a sense of reality and proportion.

[+keehotee]

I would urge the reviewing community to adopt a sense of reality and proportion.

 

I can't speak for anybody else but, with very few exceptions, the reviewing community's sense of reality and proportion seem to have been working fine for the short period I've been hiding caches.

[+rob.marsh]

Double checking so you don't destry/damage/hurt an SSSI is surely doing no harm.

 

I can't see how a blanket agreement on the land in general can apply to a protected SSSI within that area too.

 

The whole point of geocaching is to help people enjoy areas of beauty/interest by placing caches there. I'm struggling to see what the problem is when a reviewer simply checks that a cache has permission and doesn't have a negative impact on the area. What's the harm? Ok, so it takes you an extra 5 min to prove the permission, so what?

Edited March 18, 2010 by rob.marsh

[+dino-irl]

This is for cagney37 who raised the issue about being asked for permission details. As you've already got an agreement with the conservators of the AONB to place caches there without seeking prior permission it would be very useful to have a formal agreement to place in the GAGB landowner database so other cachers know that caching in the AONB is approved. I'm sure this would be appreciated by everyone. It would also be helpful to us reviewers as then we wouldn't need to ask for proof of permission each time but just check the cache meets the agreement and so can be published. If a map of the boundary of the AONB can be obtained I can create a Google maps overlay for the GAGB database so everyone can see the exact location.

So may I suggest that you approach your contact and see if such an agreement can be negotiated?

 

Chris

Graculus

Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

UK Geocaching Information & Resources website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

 

From my discussions last year with the Conservators they are not willing to sign an overarching agreement with the GC community. Indeed, from a response that I have received separately, from another senior GC reviewer, it would now seem that 'blanket agreements' covering the placing of caches in SSSIs/Nature Parks etc are no longer being taken at face value.

 

Quote In on case a cache located in a park under a Blanket Agreement with the local Council, was treated in the same way your caches have been. Due to the Park being designated a SSSI. The cache in question happened to be located up a tree, in which Bats were roosting. As these are a Protected species, disturbing them can result in a fine of up to £20,000. Unquote

 

It would seem that reviewers now want the location/siting of each cache to be approved in advance by the SSSI land manager - even when there is a 'blanket agreement' in place. I have suggested that this revised policy needs to be published so that new cache-owners know what is expected of them before a cache will be listed. Personally, I think this change of policy resulting from the reviewers' access to MAGICmap is a massive over-reaction.

 

In my view, if an individual cacher has met with the land owner, obtained written approval from him to place caches on his land and only inform him of the location of the caches once they have been listed, then all bases are covered as far as GC.Com is concerned?

 

We should not forget in all of this that we are just talking about the siting of a small plastic box in an area of natural environmental cover. I would urge the reviewing community to adopt a sense of reality and proportion.

I'm sorry but you appear to contradict yourself a number of times. You consistently refer to having a blanket agreement from the landowner but then say that they don't wish to enter into a blanket agreement?

 

You can't have it both ways. Either the landowner agrees to blanket placement with guidelines that they set and the reviewers enforce or else you will have to provide permission details each time you place a cache in the area. I really don't see what is the big deal about the latter if the landowner is unwilling to do the former?

 

The reason reviewers are so specific about SSSIs is that they carry very vigorous and powerful legal protections. I'm sure nobody wishes to fall foul of those

 

Also you should know that publishing an email you were sent privately is really bad manners. This post makes it twice you've done so now.

 

Finally, for the record I am also a reviewer but not in the UK and this is all my own opinion.

 

[+Happy Humphrey]

... it would be very useful to have a formal agreement to place in the GAGB landowner database so other cachers know that caching in the AONB is approved. I'm sure this would be appreciated by everyone. It would also be helpful to us reviewers as then we wouldn't need to ask for proof of permission each time but just check the cache meets the agreement and so can be published. If a map of the boundary of the AONB can be obtained I can create a Google maps overlay for the GAGB database so everyone can see the exact location.

I'm probably getting a bit confused with all the agreements / permissions etc. but I doubt that it would be possible for any blanket agreement to exist to allow caches on an AONB (or many SSSIs, which are often huge). The areas of land involved are just too massive (AONB map here). Imagine placing a cache in the middle of Stow-on-the-Wold on the basis that there's a blanket agreement covering the whole area, including a housing estates in Tetbury and fields on the outskirts of Bath, more than fifty miles away - I think not.

 

As for bats up trees, there seems to be an inference that a land manager would know about bat roosts. That might be the case sometimes, but there are millions of bats in Britain and they often roost discreetly (without the permission of the farmer or forester!). There's a danger, permission or not, that accessing a cache up a tree will disturb a roosting bat (even if there is no sign of a roost now there could be in the lifetime of the cache). We might need a ban on caches in trees if this law needs to be covered.

[+ChaceGuild]

So just for reference - Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council (DMBC)'s "Public Rights of Way" (PRoW) team have given me blanket permission to place caches on the local PRoW network. If anyone is interested in placing a cache on it anywhere, I can ask them for a formal "Blanket Agreement" to post up.

 

Probably a silly question - but how can they give you blanket permission to place caches on land they don't own?

 

A public right of way gives the public the right to "pass and repass" along a path, and not to perform any recreational activity. As far as I know a PRoW team will administer the definitive map and deal with issues on the PRoW network (blocked paths, landowner issues etc) - but unless those paths are owned by DMBC, the PRoW team would be in no position to override a landowners wishes on any matter except rights of way?

 

They *do* own it It's only one spot I'm wanting to place a cache that isn't DMBC owned land, and am currently in dialog with several people to sort that out. Otherwise, the other spots I'd picked are all on council owned land, hence the blanket permission for the PRoW network. I know, it's VERY odd for the council to be that helpful, as working for them I've never known them to be anything like that helpful

 

As for the spot I don't yet have permission on - it's just a case of tracking down the landowner, and asking for permission.