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Is this cache too dangerous?


iWikeCake
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A new cache came up in our area that seems to be too dangerous for our sport. According to the logs there is as much as a 75 foot drop off! What do you guys think?

 

This Cache Will Make You Cross

 

It is a cute name though, I'll give it that.

 

I think the cache is dangerous. If I hid something like that I'd have a lot of remorse if someone fell to their death or ended up maimed. If they fall to their death I bet newspaper reporters and the police will try to find the owner of the cache that "lured" the victim.

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A new cache came up in our area that seems to be too dangerous for our sport. According to the logs there is as much as a 75 foot drop off! What do you guys think?

 

This Cache Will Make You Cross

 

It is a cute name though, I'll give it that.

 

I think the cache is dangerous. If I hid something like that I'd have a lot of remorse if someone fell to their death or ended up maimed. If they fall to their death I bet newspaper reporters and the police will try to find the owner of the cache that "lured" the victim.

I think rock climbing is dangerous. People fall to their death doing that. I don't know about Canada, but our National Park system allows rock climbing.
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A new cache came up in our area that seems to be too dangerous for our sport. According to the logs there is as much as a 75 foot drop off! What do you guys think?

 

This Cache Will Make You Cross

 

It is a cute name though, I'll give it that.

 

I think the cache is dangerous. If I hid something like that I'd have a lot of remorse if someone fell to their death or ended up maimed. If they fall to their death I bet newspaper reporters and the police will try to find the owner of the cache that "lured" the victim.

I think rock climbing is dangerous. People fall to their death doing that. I don't know about Canada, but our National Park system allows rock climbing.

 

Often when they die while rock climbing, it gets reported in the newspaper and a police report/investigation is also made. If the CO doesn't mind being implicated in the death or the accident that puts someone in a wheelchair, so be it.

Edited by Lone R
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Often when they die while rock climbing, it gets reported in the newspaper and a police report/investigation is also made. If the CO doesn't mind being implicated in the death or the accident that puts someone in a wheelchair, so be it.

OK, if you say so.

 

Would anyone care to discuss personal responsibility or perhaps recreational law here?

Edited by knowschad
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If the CO doesn't mind being implicated in the death or the accident that puts someone in a wheelchair, so be it.

 

That a person is geocaching does not implicate the cache owner. Tragic accidents happen, as the death of the person who fell while geocaching can attest. I think all of us would feel horrible if an accident occurred in searching for any of our caches -- whether it was from a fall, a snake bite, or any other reason.

 

I have done more dangerous caches. I have done similar caches, albeit with less of a drop off. If something happened to me on any of them, I would not blame the owner. The owner would not be implicated in my death or injury any more than if I took a fall while mountain biking to a cache. My wife has said that she would be mad at me for doing something stupid, but that is another issue.

 

If somebody fell on this cache, the Park might have concerns, if only because the cache itself violates the rules for geocaching within the California State Parks. It might impact caching. Yet I don't think the CO in this case could be blamed for the fall.

Edited by Erickson
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SNIP

Many others have pointed out that the terrain rating is appropriately set. The 5 star rating is for a rope harness required to safely cross the log but also indicates a less dangerous, but physically demanding approach can be taken by climbing down and up the gorge.

 

I'm a little curious about the mechanics here. Having done a lot of rock climbing, I'm familiar with being tied into a rope going to a point ABOVE my head, so that if I fall DOWN the rope ABOVE me will serve to stop my fall.

 

How would one rig a harness/rope to stop you from falling off of a log? Is there a skyhook far enough above the log that no matter where you fall, the rope won't just pendulum you over into the side of the ravine?

 

I'm certainly not saying this cache isn't viable -- I'm just questioning if there is an effective way to rope up for it.

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I'm a little curious about the mechanics here. Having done a lot of rock climbing, I'm familiar with being tied into a rope going to a point ABOVE my head, so that if I fall DOWN the rope ABOVE me will serve to stop my fall.

 

How would one rig a harness/rope to stop you from falling off of a log? Is there a skyhook far enough above the log that no matter where you fall, the rope won't just pendulum you over into the side of the ravine?

 

I'm certainly not saying this cache isn't viable -- I'm just questioning if there is an effective way to rope up for it.

It's simple. You tie one end of the rope around your waist and the other end of the rope around your arm. Then when you start to fall you can pull yourself up. Or if you need to get off the log you can let yourself down. :(

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If the CO doesn't mind being implicated in the death or the accident that puts someone in a wheelchair, so be it.

 

That a person is geocaching does not implicate the cache owner. Tragic accidents happen, as the death of the person who fell while geocaching can attest. I think all of us would feel horrible if an accident occurred in searching for any of our caches -- whether it was from a fall, a snake bite, or any other reason.

 

I have done more dangerous caches. I have done similar caches, albeit with less of a drop off. If something happened to me on any of them, I would not blame the owner. The owner would not be implicated in my death or injury any more than if I took a fall while mountain biking to a cache. My wife has said that she would be mad at me for doing something stupid, but that is another issue.

 

If somebody fell on this cache, the Park might have concerns, if only because the cache itself violates the rules for geocaching within the California State Parks. It might impact caching. Yet I don't think the CO in this case could be blamed for the fall.

 

Whether the CO would be blamed legally is not so much the issue, it's whether, as a CO, you don't mind be linked to the death/maiming of another person. You may also end up with your name on newspaper reports and on police files with a finger pointed at geocachers for being reckless by intentionally creating a situation that endangers peoples lives. As a group we can argue that there were caveats and disclaimers all over the cache page which may save the COs butt legally, but it's not going to keep your name out of the news. Personally I wouldn't take such a risk, both as a finder or as a CO.

Edited by Lone R
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Yep, that cache is too dangerous. For me.

 

Notice how I was able to figure that out for myself? I respect everyone else's right to make their own decision, just as I did.

 

There's a cache located a few hundred yards from where I'm sitting right now. It's a puzzle, and it involves traveling through the storm drains under the city. I've been to the entrance of it, and there is NO WAY that I'm ever gonna go in there.

 

But I'm not going to try to stop anyone else who wants to go in there. In fact, I have it on my watch list because I love reading the logs when anyone attempts it.

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Whether the CO would be blamed legally is not so much the issue, it's whether, as a CO, you don't mind be linked to the death/maiming of another person. You may also end up with your name on newspaper reports and on police files with a finger pointed at geocachers for being reckless by intentionally creating a situation that endangers peoples lives. As a group we can argue that there were caveats and disclaimers all over the cache page which may save the COs butt legally, but it's not going to keep your name out of the news. Personally I wouldn't take such a risk, both as a finder or as a CO.

 

What is reckless for one person may not be reckless for another. There are lots of caches that I will not do because they go beyond my abilities. And my daughter has suggested certain areas for cache placements that I did not think were appropriate because it was meant to be family friendly and other kids might slip. If I got to this cache (as I hope to do) and believed it to be too dangerous for my capabilities, then it would be reckless for me to do it. The terrain ratings and description were added to it to prevent people from taking a reckless action. In the end, that is all we can ask -- at least in terms of the limited question about whether it is too dangerous to be listed.

Edited by Erickson
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Whether the CO would be blamed legally is not so much the issue, it's whether, as a CO, you don't mind be linked to the death/maiming of another person.

 

"Dear Cacher, There is a dangerous way to get to this cache, and a safe way. I strongly discourage the dangerous method. Please approach using the safe method."

 

How is this different from saying "There is parking 200 yards down the road from cache XXX. Please do not attempt to cross the street, as it is an extremely busy road" ?

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I've crossed narrower logs. I've even slipped with one leg on each side of the log.

When I was younger, I would walk on curbs trying not to "fall off". A curb is only 4 inches wide. If you can walk a curb you can walk a 3 foot diameter log. The only thing that makes it difficult is the uneven surface and the perceived height.

 

How would you rope up for one of those? Well the rope would only have to stop you from the sudden stop at the bottom of the fall. Just look at high iron workers. They tie off below waist level all the time.

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I've crossed narrower logs. I've even slipped with one leg on each side of the log.

When I was younger, I would walk on curbs trying not to "fall off". A curb is only 4 inches wide. If you can walk a curb you can walk a 3 foot diameter log. The only thing that makes it difficult is the uneven surface and the perceived height.

Agreed.

 

How would you rope up for one of those? Well the rope would only have to stop you from the sudden stop at the bottom of the fall. Just look at high iron workers. They tie off below waist level all the time.

Not sure I follow you. I believe the goal of being tied into ANY harness/rope safety system is to prevent that sudden stop at the bottom. Tying a rope around one's waist for security is almost NEVER a good idea. Climbing harnesses go around the upper legs and waist, and can be used upside down if needed.

 

bridgewf.jpg

Edited by mountainman38
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I've crossed narrower logs. I've even slipped with one leg on each side of the log.

When I was younger, I would walk on curbs trying not to "fall off". A curb is only 4 inches wide. If you can walk a curb you can walk a 3 foot diameter log. The only thing that makes it difficult is the uneven surface and the perceived height.

Agreed.

 

How would you rope up for one of those? Well the rope would only have to stop you from the sudden stop at the bottom of the fall. Just look at high iron workers. They tie off below waist level all the time.

Not sure I follow you. I believe the goal of being tied into ANY harness/rope safety system is to prevent that sudden stop at the bottom. Tying a rope around one's waist for security is almost NEVER a good idea. Climbing harnesses go around the upper legs and waist, and can be used upside down if needed.

 

bridgewf.jpg

 

I suppose my point was that if you were going to use a rope system, assuming you knew what you were doing, there would be a few ways to prevent the sudden stop at the bottom.

My first thought was to sling a rope under the log and back up so if you fell you wouldn't hit bottom. Of course getting back up would be problematic.

But I don't necessarily consider safety nets when I'm out and about.

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Here is a good example of a location that is waaaaaay too dangerous for me, but this guy just goes strolling around like there's nothing to it.

 

That might go on my ignore list. And some people might think that

is reckless. And my daughter could very well do some of the tree walking-rock climbing-ledge hugging things a lot better than I, but not when I am around. . .
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SNIP

I suppose my point was that if you were going to use a rope system, assuming you knew what you were doing, there would be a few ways to prevent the sudden stop at the bottom.

My first thought was to sling a rope under the log and back up so if you fell you wouldn't hit bottom. Of course getting back up would be problematic.

But I don't necessarily consider safety nets when I'm out and about.

 

Yeah, I don't think there's really a way to make crossing a log like that completely safe.

 

So I guess that means anyone interested in the cache on the other side would have to accept some risk in getting to it.... :(

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SNIP

I suppose my point was that if you were going to use a rope system, assuming you knew what you were doing, there would be a few ways to prevent the sudden stop at the bottom.

My first thought was to sling a rope under the log and back up so if you fell you wouldn't hit bottom. Of course getting back up would be problematic.

But I don't necessarily consider safety nets when I'm out and about.

 

Yeah, I don't think there's really a way to make crossing a log like that completely safe.

 

So I guess that means anyone interested in the cache on the other side would have to accept some risk in getting to it.... :)

 

I think you are at a hgher risk walking down the street in Washington DC.

But that's just an opinion...

 

:(

 

Really, if one is going to talk danger...

 

Running with the Bulls

Drinking water south of the American Border

Anything you do in Tijuana

Exploring the Australian outback

Taking a cruise and eating salad (they wash it with the tank water which is why people get lysteria)

Skydiving

Water skiing

Messin 'round with Jim

 

It's really amazing that people see danger in the wilderness. The number of people who play (for lack of a better term) in the wilderness and the relative few calls of people dying would indicate that the wilderness is not all that dangerous.

Yes, you can get hurt but you get hurt any time you ignore danger. Imagine if you didn't look both ways crossing the street. How soon before you were pancaked? I think people have a subconscious heightened sense of danger in the city which is why the wilderness seems so much more relaxing.

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I'm a little curious about the mechanics here. Having done a lot of rock climbing, I'm familiar with being tied into a rope going to a point ABOVE my head, so that if I fall DOWN the rope ABOVE me will serve to stop my fall.

 

How would one rig a harness/rope to stop you from falling off of a log? Is there a skyhook far enough above the log that no matter where you fall, the rope won't just pendulum you over into the side of the ravine?

For the record, I do have concerns that someone could get hurt on this cache. That is why I have tried to warn people off of casual crossings. I am attracted to activities that get the blood pumping and enjoyed crossing this log. I know there are others that enjoy this kind of challenge which is why I placed this cache. There is a path to this log and it continues on the other side so this crossing gets some use. Being a rock climber myself, I have in the past crossed much more dangerous things. Regarding the mechanics it's a rather simple matter of placing a floating loop of rope around the log and tying into a harness. I admit I did not do this on this cache. Despite being quite wet when I crossed this was a pretty easy stroll to get across - it's wide and rock solid. The hard part was not thinking about that loooong drop if I did manage to fall.

 

A couple of questions for you:

 

You say you are a rock climber, have you ever done any lead climbing? Because if you had you would know that the tie in point of a fall is always below you. Sometimes quite a ways down below you.

 

Despite being roped in in climbing, people do get hurt. There are many ways for that to happen - a bad figure 8 knot for example, or equipment failure. Would you hold the publisher of a climbing route guide responsible if you were to get hurt attempting a route?

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For the record, I do have concerns that someone could get hurt on this cache. That is why I have tried to warn people off of casual crossings. I am attracted to activities that get the blood pumping and enjoyed crossing this log. I know there are others that enjoy this kind of challenge which is why I placed this cache. There is a path to this log and it continues on the other side so this crossing gets some use. Being a rock climber myself, I have in the past crossed much more dangerous things. Regarding the mechanics it's a rather simple matter of placing a floating loop of rope around the log and tying into a harness. I admit I did not do this on this cache. Despite being quite wet when I crossed this was a pretty easy stroll to get across - it's wide and rock solid. The hard part was not thinking about that loooong drop if I did manage to fall.

 

Sounds very reasonable to me. For those accustomed to dangerous outdoor activities, an assessment of risk/reward/possible completion goes on every time you look at an obstacle.

 

A couple of questions for you:

 

You say you are a rock climber, have you ever done any lead climbing? Because if you had you would know that the tie in point of a fall is always below you. Sometimes quite a ways down below you.

 

Plenty of lead climbing, including trad routes. I missed the last hold on a 100' vertical column at Frenchman Coulee, and dropped close to 30 feet. Good rope + alert belayer = nonevent.

 

What's the tie in point being below you have to do with crossing a log? If you try to tie a rope around the log, you're going to have a hard time sliding it over the bark every step you take. If you do fall, you're going to whip hard around that log, and while it may stop you from hitting the deck, it ain't gonna be fun. Swinging like a pendulum under a giant Sequoia isn't my idea of a good time.

 

Despite being roped in in climbing, people do get hurt. There are many ways for that to happen - a bad figure 8 knot for example, or equipment failure. Would you hold the publisher of a climbing route guide responsible if you were to get hurt attempting a route?

 

Not sure why you're asking me this. I've said I think this is a fine cache, and one I'll gladly do when I get down that way.

 

Just because there's risk certainly doesn't mean the cache isn't a good one. I plan on making some climbing caches that will be about a 5 star, and expect anyone who attempts them to know their own abilities.

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A new cache came up in our area that seems to be too dangerous for our sport.

 

Nope, its too dangerous for YOUR sport. And for mine too! Theres no way you would catch me up there! My vertigo is way too bad for that kind of thing. Respect to the people who try it though, and the deathwish cache. They must be mental!

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I think the cache is dangerous. If I hid something like that I'd have a lot of remorse if someone fell to their death or ended up maimed. If they fall to their death I bet newspaper reporters and the police will try to find the owner of the cache that "lured" the victim.

 

Often when they die while rock climbing, it gets reported in the newspaper and a police report/investigation is also made. If the CO doesn't mind being implicated in the death or the accident that puts someone in a wheelchair, so be it.

 

I have a couple of caches placed near highways. On one I specifically tell people they should not park on the side of the highway -- there is a better approach. On the other I tell people the rest area is accessible from the westbound lanes only. If someone chooses to ignore the information I provided and gets run over and/or killed on the highway while going for my cache I can honestly say I wouldn't feel guilty because I did nothing wrong.

 

If this cache owner mislead people with improper terrain ratings or a description that fooled people into thinking it was an easy park 'n grab AND those dangers were somehow hidden when a cacher arrived on scene and thus prevented him/her from making their own informed judgment.

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What's the tie in point being below you have to do with crossing a log?

I mentioned it because you mentioned the sky-hook thing.

If you try to tie a rope around the log, you're going to have a hard time sliding it over the bark every step you take. If you do fall, you're going to whip hard around that log, and while it may stop you from hitting the deck, it ain't gonna be fun. Swinging like a pendulum under a giant Sequoia isn't my idea of a good time.

I'm not suggesting it would be fun but at least you would be (relatively) safe. I've done this before on smaller and more dangerous crossings. The trick is to make the loop big enough to carry with you and have it hang below the log. I doubt in the history of this cache anyone will do this, but it's an option and it would save you in the event of a fall.

Despite being roped in in climbing, people do get hurt. There are many ways for that to happen - a bad figure 8 knot for example, or equipment failure. Would you hold the publisher of a climbing route guide responsible if you were to get hurt attempting a route?

 

Not sure why you're asking me this. I've said I think this is a fine cache, and one I'll gladly do when I get down that way.

 

Just because there's risk certainly doesn't mean the cache isn't a good one. I plan on making some climbing caches that will be about a 5 star, and expect anyone who attempts them to know their own abilities.

Sorry, my bad. I confused another posters remark with yours. Apologies. I look forward to your log!

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I think the cache is dangerous. If I hid something like that I'd have a lot of remorse if someone fell to their death or ended up maimed. If they fall to their death I bet newspaper reporters and the police will try to find the owner of the cache that "lured" the victim.

 

Often when they die while rock climbing, it gets reported in the newspaper and a police report/investigation is also made. If the CO doesn't mind being implicated in the death or the accident that puts someone in a wheelchair, so be it.

 

I have a couple of caches placed near highways. On one I specifically tell people they should not park on the side of the highway -- there is a better approach. On the other I tell people the rest area is accessible from the westbound lanes only. If someone chooses to ignore the information I provided and gets run over and/or killed on the highway while going for my cache I can honestly say I wouldn't feel guilty because I did nothing wrong.

 

If this cache owner mislead people with improper terrain ratings or a description that fooled people into thinking it was an easy park 'n grab AND those dangers were somehow hidden when a cacher arrived on scene and thus prevented him/her from making their own informed judgment.

 

I totally get that. He's definitely not misleading people in any way. But I'm not sure that newspaper reporters will see it that way -- i.e. the CO is in no way morally responsible for the misfortune. If not for the cache placement that cacher would not have crossed that log. If I were the CO I just wouldn't want them knocking on my door should they link a fatal fall to my cache. But if the CO can handle it, so be it. I know I wouldn't be able to sleep soundly if some daredevil cacher slipped and died.

 

The one possible saving grace would be if that log was actually placed by the park for people to walk across to get to the other side. Then the park considers it a bridge for pedestrian travel. It was being used as intended.

 

Addendum: I'm just putting that out there to think about. I'm not saying the CO should pull the cache. Just saying the potential consequences are not something I could live soundly with.

Edited by Lone R
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I think the cache is dangerous. If I hid something like that I'd have a lot of remorse if someone fell to their death or ended up maimed. If they fall to their death I bet newspaper reporters and the police will try to find the owner of the cache that "lured" the victim.

 

Often when they die while rock climbing, it gets reported in the newspaper and a police report/investigation is also made. If the CO doesn't mind being implicated in the death or the accident that puts someone in a wheelchair, so be it.

 

I have a couple of caches placed near highways. On one I specifically tell people they should not park on the side of the highway -- there is a better approach. On the other I tell people the rest area is accessible from the westbound lanes only. If someone chooses to ignore the information I provided and gets run over and/or killed on the highway while going for my cache I can honestly say I wouldn't feel guilty because I did nothing wrong.

 

If this cache owner mislead people with improper terrain ratings or a description that fooled people into thinking it was an easy park 'n grab AND those dangers were somehow hidden when a cacher arrived on scene and thus prevented him/her from making their own informed judgment.

 

I totally get that. He's definitely not misleading people in any way. But I'm not sure that newspaper reporters will see it that way -- i.e. the CO is in no way morally responsible for the misfortune. If not for the cache placement that cacher would not have crossed that log. If I were the CO I just wouldn't want them knocking on my door should they link a fatal fall to my cache. But if the CO can handle it, so be it. I know I wouldn't be able to sleep soundly if some daredevil cacher slipped and died.

 

The one possible saving grace would be if that log was actually placed by the park for people to walk across to get to the other side. Then the park considers it a bridge for pedestrian travel. It was being used as intended.

 

Addendum: I'm just putting that out there to think about. I'm not saying the CO should pull the cache. Just saying the potential consequences are not something I could live soundly with.

 

I once owned a cache that the ENTIRE geocaching community here loved. Until that dreadful Sunday when the muggles found it and thought my Halloween themed cache was a real dead body. And now, many of those hypocrites that wrote in the log book about how it was their favorite cache EVER have turned on me like I am some kind of jack*ss that crossed the line (of creativity).

 

Point is, even though I disagree with your notion about it being too dangerous, I understand how things can snowball out of control because of our complete, overreactive, PC, society.

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And now, many of those hypocrites that wrote in the log book about how it was their favorite cache EVER have turned on me like I am some kind of jack*ss that crossed the line (of creativity)
Wow!! That's news to me!! I haven't seen that here nor on the local MNGCA... where is this... personal emails? I don't know a single local cacher that doesn't consider that cache, and many of your others, to be anything other than liquid awesome!
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SNIP

I'm not suggesting it would be fun but at least you would be (relatively) safe. I've done this before on smaller and more dangerous crossings. The trick is to make the loop big enough to carry with you and have it hang below the log. I doubt in the history of this cache anyone will do this, but it's an option and it would save you in the event of a fall.

I'm going to remember this trick. You never know -- may need it someday!

...I look forward to your log!

 

Me too! I love the Santa Cruz area. Now that I live a couple states north it's an area I get to visit rather less often... :(

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SNIP

I'm not suggesting it would be fun but at least you would be (relatively) safe. I've done this before on smaller and more dangerous crossings. The trick is to make the loop big enough to carry with you and have it hang below the log. I doubt in the history of this cache anyone will do this, but it's an option and it would save you in the event of a fall.

I'm going to remember this trick. You never know -- may need it someday!

...I look forward to your log!

 

Me too! I love the Santa Cruz area. Now that I live a couple states north it's an area I get to visit rather less often... :(

So, the idea here is to have a big loop around the log and attached to your harness? And you move the loop as you move along? If you fall, at least you're still attached to the tree instead of to the rocks below, but you may need some assistance getting back up?
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So, the idea here is to have a big loop around the log and attached to your harness? And you move the loop as you move along? If you fall, at least you're still attached to the tree instead of to the rocks below, but you may need some assistance getting back up?

I think the idea here is, if you have to think about how to tie yourself to the log, and how you are going to get back up when you fall, it's supposed to make you realize that this is not the cache for you and send you on your way!

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I know its a personal choice to attempt this cache, but someone getting hurt won't endear our sport to the State of California. I am also concerned that young cachers "sans good judgement" might attempt this one. Somehow knowingly placing and creating a very dangerous cache is poor judgement. Approving this cache makes Groundspeak a co-conspirator. Peoria Bill :>)

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So, the idea here is to have a big loop around the log and attached to your harness? And you move the loop as you move along? If you fall, at least you're still attached to the tree instead of to the rocks below, but you may need some assistance getting back up?

I think the idea here is, if you have to think about how to tie yourself to the log, and how you are going to get back up when you fall, it's supposed to make you realize that this is not the cache for you and send you on your way!

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

 

The one time I did this I had enough rope on the other end to repel down (or at least I told myself I did). Regarding this particular cache I doubt the drop is even 40 feet. I think it just seems higher because of the balance issue and the unforgiving nature of the "landing" area.

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I know its a personal choice to attempt this cache, but someone getting hurt won't endear our sport to the State of California. I am also concerned that young cachers "sans good judgement" might attempt this one. Somehow knowingly placing and creating a very dangerous cache is poor judgement. Approving this cache makes Groundspeak a co-conspirator. Peoria Bill :>)

During my ten years on the wrong coast the State of California never once tried to protect me from myself.

 

Trust me, if you fall in a ravine while walking across a log California will have naught to say about it, unless they have to spend money rescuing you. Which, from what I hear about what they've done to their economy, good luck with that! :(

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I know its a personal choice to attempt this cache, but someone getting hurt won't endear our sport to the State of California. I am also concerned that young cachers "sans good judgement" might attempt this one. Somehow knowingly placing and creating a very dangerous cache is poor judgement. Approving this cache makes Groundspeak a co-conspirator. Peoria Bill :>)

 

What are your thoughts on inviting people to go surfing?

 

If you don't know what you're doing, you can get hurt badly or even drown. Yet lots of people do it.

 

What are your thoughts on inviting people to go skiing? (yes, California has snow)

 

If you don't know what your doing, you can get badly hurt or even hit a tree and die.

 

What are your thoughts on inviting people to go camping?

 

If you don't know what you are doing (and even when you do) you can be attacked by wild animals and/or people.

 

Point is there are a lot of dangerous activities that people encourage others to do all the time. Sometimes people get hurt doing these activities. Sometimes people die doing these activities.

 

This cache clearly points out the dangers. If someone decides to go after this cache, they can't claim ignorance.

 

I am really tired of this new cultural phenomenon where suddenly no one is expected to take responsibility for their own actions.

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During my ten years on the wrong coast the State of California never once tried to protect me from myself.

Trust me, if you fall in a ravine while walking across a log California will have naught to say about it, unless they have to spend money rescuing you.

 

California might care more if they decided to enforce the state parks caching guidelines and the specific rules for that section of the park - but so far neither Groundspeak or the park seems to be doing that. If somebody did get hurt I suppose it would give them grounds to take more of an interest in the issue. But I trust people will use their common sense. I intend to when I go there.

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I am really tired of this new cultural phenomenon where suddenly no one is expected to take responsibility for their own actions.

Heh. Not long after California instituted it's automobile inspection laws the brakes failed on my recently-inspected '65 Bonneville coming down the mountain from Big Bear ski resort. I knew the brakes were shot and had held my breath to see if it would make the inspection. It was an, um, interesting ride. The female half of the hitch-hiking couple that we'd picked up probably still hasn't forgotten us. Until then I didn't know girls could cuss like that.

 

If that happened today maybe I could sue California for letting me drive off that mountain with defective brakes!

 

I need protection from my bad decisions, ya hear? :(

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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Or maybe this is one of those caches that you do with a buddy. If you fall off, the rope catches you and then your buddy can help you get topside again. (unless your buddy slips off trying to rescue you. :( )

 

The kind of buddies I have would do themselves an injury, laughing hysterically at me swinging back and forth under the log. :)

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Or maybe this is one of those caches that you do with a buddy. If you fall off, the rope catches you and then your buddy can help you get topside again. (unless your buddy slips off trying to rescue you. :( )

 

The kind of buddies I have would do themselves an injury, laughing hysterically at me swinging back and forth under the log. :)

 

Same here, and I would probably laugh with them.

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Or maybe this is one of those caches that you do with a buddy. If you fall off, the rope catches you and then your buddy can help you get topside again. (unless your buddy slips off trying to rescue you. :( )

 

The kind of buddies I have would do themselves an injury, laughing hysterically at me swinging back and forth under the log. :)

 

Same here, and I would probably laugh with them.

 

It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. I can't remember, though, after someone gets hurt is it just fun or just games?

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And now, many of those hypocrites that wrote in the log book about how it was their favorite cache EVER have turned on me like I am some kind of jack*ss that crossed the line (of creativity)
Wow!! That's news to me!! I haven't seen that here nor on the local MNGCA... where is this... personal emails? I don't know a single local cacher that doesn't consider that cache, and many of your others, to be anything other than liquid awesome!

 

There were three personal attacks (which I suppose it a lot less than "many") but that's neither here nor there. I am not really angry but will always keep that in the back of my mind when I interact with said backpeddlers.

 

My point was that I understand how an incident can quickly change public opinion... I don't believe with the idea that the cache is too dangerous to have available but I DO agree that if something were to happen, the proverbial you-know-what would hit the fan.

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There is a potential for danger in every situation. So no. I think that if someone is aware of the risk and takes it they are at fault should something go wrong. If I go after a cache and get hurt it would be my fault for tripping not the cache owner's.

 

Just a thought- people in the US have a 1/87 chance of dying in a car accident during their lifetime. How many caches are near roads? So in my opinion a cliff is no different.

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Well now this cache is temporarily unavailable.

 

No this cache does not look very dangerous to me.

 

I have been a timber faller and am currently an Ironworker that works as high as 500' on steel buildings bridges and TV towers.

 

I have crossed smaller logs when cutting timber. I have been walking logs since my first time out with my dad at 15. Loggers don't use ropes to tie themselves to logs when they cross them.

 

When an Ironworker falls into his safety system he usually has to have someone help him get back on the steel.

 

 

If you don't feel safe DON'T DO IT!!

 

Don't take my fun away because you don't feel safe. I take greater risks driving a Geo Metro for 100 miles each way to work and home every day in Seattle traffic.

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If you're the type of person who cannot look at a situation and figure out if it's going to result in injury or death then maybe you're one of the people Darwin wrote about - your species will die off and only the stronger, more intelligent ones will survive.

 

It occurs to me that the very existence of a thread like this tends to cast doubt on Darwin's theories.

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I hope everyone is happy now. The world is a safer place. ;)

 

 

This is sad. Now the cache is disabled. Nice job on the "beat down".

 

I note with particular irony the last cacher to log it gave a lengthy note on the dangers , but still logs the smiley.

 

Whats next? Crossing gates at street intersections? If I cross against the "walk/don't walk" light and get hit by a car, who should I sue? The City for not preventing me from crossing, or the Starbucks for placing their "attractive nuisance" store on the wrong side of the street?

 

Only in America!!! :D

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