Decline in value of premium membership

[+Hynr]

I am generally amazed at how many threads in the forum reflect sentiment by some users that the value of the premium membership has declined to the point of being a disappointment. Individuals suggest that it would really be a significant improvement if something were changed. This has been going on for years now and Groundspeak’s response has been to ignore the requests. So I suspect that I am wasting my energy in this, but would point out that as many of us descend on the Seattle area this summer, it would really be timely for some changes to be put in place ahead of that (Geowoodstock). In particular there will be hundreds of us who will want up-to-date data for Seattle, Bellevue, Everett, Tacoma, Olympia, Bellingham, Victoria, Vancouver, 1-2 mile bands around every major freeway around and to the area, the many nature areas around and along the way. New caches will be showing up around the entire area where it is clearly impossible to load all these areas with 5 PQs. In fact, I have to delete all my regular PQs in order to do what I need. And even then it is still not possible to pull all those data in the course of one week. And this is in Groundspeak’s backyard. How strange!

 

For me value of the premium membership is solely for quality and quantity of data delivered to me. All other premium membership features are not of interest to me. While data in all sectors of information technology have become cheaper (orders of magnitude more data for the same price as 10 years ago) the price of data at geocaching.com is the same as it was in 2001. At the same time the total amount of data for any one geographic area has ballooned and it is no longer possible for many individuals to load all the data for a simple afternoon drive around town unless they use some special tricks. I find it curious that nearly all Groundspeak employees would surely see this problem when they go caching, yet nothing is done to address it.

 

Last summer I visited the Seattle area and on several occasions, despite careful planning, ran out of data because the limitations on data delivery to me. I was very grateful at being able to generate Route PQs. Without that I would have been totally sunk. But with all the tricks that I know (and I think I know more than most folks), I still found myself without data when I wanted to go caching. Already now I am trying to figure out how I am going to deal with data in the Seattle area this summer and for the two weeks that I will be traveling around the area.

 

I know that a lot of suggestions have been voiced in the past. If a redesign could be planned and executed, then I would recommend that the design criteria explicitly seek to keep the customer satisfied and interested in sustaining their membership. This means that the clumsy query interface needs a re-design so that one does not need DBMS skills to make it work as expected. The scheduling needs to be responsive to the clients needs, not to the ease of the computer programmer (let us schedule our data delivery for the time when WE want the query to run using local time; give us the option to retrieve it from a server). Raise the data limitations an order of magnitude (no one should have to time-slice PQs to get a complete dataset of their home region).

 

I know that making threats is a waste of everyone’s time, but I would point to the eventual consequence of allowing the value of the premium membership decline further. When I cross the threshold where I have to find a different way to do it, then I will be forced to geocache in exactly the way TPTB supposedly want me to (without an my offline data). I do not need a premium account for that.

 

With the economic factors also in play at this time, it would seem to me that there should be some urgency in protecting this income source for the company. And since that seems to not be the case, I can only conclude that this source of income is not particularly important. If this notion is realized by others, then many geocachers who look at the premium membership as a charity contribution to a wonderful organization will not see the need for that.

 

I would offer this thread as a place to discuss recommendations for redesign. If the system is working fine for you, and you see no way that you could be a more satisfied customer, then please place your comments in a different thread.

[+WRASTRO]

Sorry, but I am not willing to "place my comments in a different thread" just so you can have a rant only thread. I have been a happy premium member for just about six years now and have never had an issue with any of the features I use. And I do use the PQ feature when I need it. I agree it would be nice if the PQ feature returned more than 500 caches each but I have never found it to be a problem. A bit of advance preparation has always allowed me to have all of the info I need when travelling.

 

I value my premium membership as much or more than I did six years ago when I first signed up. I trust the Lackeys will continue to keep up the good work!

[+geodarts]

Since my gpsr will only hold 2000 caches I have found I need to plan the pqs carefully when I am traveling. Of course if I ran out of caches I could always do some new pqs on the road or fire up the iPhone. So it has never been a problem for me. But with that said, when the 500 limit was developed it probably filled up most gps units (although my old Magellan could store them). With the capacity increasing maybe it is time to expand the size of the pq.

[+Isonzo Karst]

If the daily number is to remain at 2500, it would still be nice to be able to design say from 1 - 10 queries of any size that = 2500. More flex then just 5 queries, max 2500.

[+Jumpin' Jack Cache]

Thanks for the feedback, RAH. We intend to increase the number of caches per PQ in the second quarter of this year.

 

Before that can be done, however, we need to shore up the PQ generator so it can handle the increased load. That is a difficult task but we are employing some strategery to accomplish it.

 

We are also researching ways to provide on-demand PQ downloads as an a la carte offering (for those days you need a few extra). I'll have more information on this in the future.

[+Keith Watson]

Our family has two accounts and I believe we are getting value for what we pay. PQ size has never been a problem for me. If I am traveling along a route I just create a PQ for the route. Normally I load up for an area and 500 caches is more than plenty for a few days. I am planning a big road trip this summer and I am already marking virtuals using a book mark list and will use caching along a route to do the rest. I don't see how anything has declined over the years.

 

You can add me to the list of "I won't be jumping on the I'm leaving band wagon any time soon" customers.

[+The Leprechauns]

When I first became a premium member in 2002, the only premium features were special forum titles and the ability to create members-only caches. The price was $30 per year.

 

What's happened since then?

 

Later in 2002 we saw the introduction of pocket queries. Wow! One query covered my entire home area while another covered me for frequent visits to my parents' house. Then I started going on geocaching roadtrips and the pace of cache placements has risen dramatically. Now we can save 40 queries instead of twenty and run five per day instead of three. We hear that the ability to download pocket queries on demand will be coming soon, as will a higher limit of caches per query.

 

I've also been here for the introduction of bookmark lists and bookmark pocket queries. Boy, did that help in organizing trips, sharing favorite caches, tracking DNF's and challenge cache progress, and a whole lot more. We get twice as many bookmark lists now, because they've grown so popular.

 

I watched the online cache maps go from clunky shapefiles with little blue canisters, to fancy Google maps that premium members can zoom and pan.

 

As a road tripping geocacher, I appreciated the introduction of the "Caches Along a Route" feature. For someone who has found caches in more than 40 states, this is indispensable.

 

The insta-notify feature added the ability for me to keep track of new cache placements and status changes for existing caches on a real time basis.

 

Waymarking.com made its debut, and my premium membership allowed for me to create and manage categories there from the very start. I still keep up with my original categories and have joined some additional groups over the years.

 

For the past year, I've enjoyed caching with the iPhone application at a minimal one time cost. My premium membership meant that I could download pocket queries for use on my iPhone. That's come in very handy, especially on a week long backpacking trip where I was out of cellphone range most of the time.

 

How much have all these additions cost me? Nothing. $30 per year is still the price. It's guaranteed to be locked in for as long as someone remains a premium member. New memberships are $30, even today.

 

If the Groundspeak premium membership was indexed for inflation, it would now cost more than $35 per year (in the U.S.).

 

What's all this about a decline in value again?

[+Chrysalides]

Thanks for the feedback, RAH. We intend to increase the number of caches per PQ in the second quarter of this year.

 

Before that can be done, however, we need to shore up the PQ generator so it can handle the increased load. That is a difficult task but we are employing some strategery to accomplish it.

 

We are also researching ways to provide on-demand PQ downloads as an a la carte offering (for those days you need a few extra). I'll have more information on this in the future.

Thanks for the info. Hope it happens.

[GOF and Bacall]

When I first became a premium member in 2002, the only premium features were special forum titles and the ability to create members-only caches. The price was $30 per year.

 

What's happened since then?

 

Later in 2002 we saw the introduction of pocket queries. Wow! One query covered my entire home area while another covered me for frequent visits to my parents' house. Then I started going on geocaching roadtrips and the pace of cache placements has risen dramatically. Now we can save 40 queries instead of twenty and run five per day instead of three. We hear that the ability to download pocket queries on demand will be coming soon, as will a higher limit of caches per query.

 

I've also been here for the introduction of bookmark lists and bookmark pocket queries. Boy, did that help in organizing trips, sharing favorite caches, tracking DNF's and challenge cache progress, and a whole lot more. We get twice as many bookmark lists now, because they've grown so popular.

 

I watched the online cache maps go from clunky shapefiles with little blue canisters, to fancy Google maps that premium members can zoom and pan.

 

As a road tripping geocacher, I appreciated the introduction of the "Caches Along a Route" feature. For someone who has found caches in more than 40 states, this is indispensable.

 

The insta-notify feature added the ability for me to keep track of new cache placements and status changes for existing caches on a real time basis.

 

Waymarking.com made its debut, and my premium membership allowed for me to create and manage categories there from the very start. I still keep up with my original categories and have joined some additional groups over the years.

 

For the past year, I've enjoyed caching with the iPhone application at a minimal one time cost. My premium membership meant that I could download pocket queries for use on my iPhone. That's come in very handy, especially on a week long backpacking trip where I was out of cellphone range most of the time.

 

How much have all these additions cost me? Nothing. $30 per year is still the price. It's guaranteed to be locked in for as long as someone remains a premium member. New memberships are $30, even today.

 

If the Groundspeak premium membership was indexed for inflation, it would now cost more than $35 per year (in the U.S.).

 

What's all this about a decline in value again?

 

$35 whole dollars? Great post and history of the PM.

[+t4e]

i am more than happy with the current size of the PQ, and the Premium features in general, if it will increase than great, we get better value for our membership, but i don't feel the need for bigger ones

2500 caches to load for a trip is more than enough

 

maybe the OP can enlighten me how he/she has run out of data

Edited February 28, 2010 by t4e

[knowschad]

When I first became a premium member in 2002, the only premium features were special forum titles and the ability to create members-only caches. The price was $30 per year.

Only $30 a year back in 2002? WOW! What a value that must have been!

[+Hynr]

i am more than happy with the current size of the PQ, and the Premium features in general, if it will increase than great, we get better value for our membership, but i don't feel the need for bigger ones

2500 caches to load for a trip is more than enough

Let's say you drive your car from Kitchener, Ontario to GW8 in July and perhaps drive home by a different route. Give it a try and let us know how many PQs you will need to run every day so as to be able to stop at any spot along the road where the mood might strike you. Indeed, it can be done and the tools we have are great. But at any of the big urban areas, you will have the issues I describe.

maybe the OP can enlighten me how he/she has run out of data

Generally when I am traveling on vacation or business I know which area I am in, but not usually how I will drive as that is frequently dictated by traffic conditions and detours related to work or pleasure. Many times the location is dictated to me by the situation. So I may be in various locations within an area over the course of the day. In urban areas, such an area may contain 5000 caches (that is the case in my home area). I would like to treat caching information in the same way as all the other POIs in my GPSr. There are hundreds of thousands of those and I have access to the ones that are near where I am.

 

This summer I will be traveling through Oregon and Washington. I won’t know exactly where I will be on any day except that I do plan to connect with a few hundred of my friends in Carnation WA; I don’t know where the winds will take me before and after that, but I plan to see some of Washington (and perhaps Canada). Based my experience last summer, I am pretty sure that I will have to start generating PQs sometime in May and not get too hung up on stale data. Every night in the hotel room I will have to run PQs for wherever I am likely to be the next day. Personally I would rather be out with friends than sit in the hotel room battling crappy network connections.

 

I do need to underscore that I am well aware of all the workarounds. My point is that if I change to using those methods, then I won’t be needing my premium account anymore. I can browse the website with a Basic Membership on my phone and head for the coordinates that I see there.

[+Hynr]

Thanks for the feedback, RAH. We intend to increase the number of caches per PQ in the second quarter of this year.

 

Before that can be done, however, we need to shore up the PQ generator so it can handle the increased load. That is a difficult task but we are employing some strategery to accomplish it.

 

We are also researching ways to provide on-demand PQ downloads as an a la carte offering (for those days you need a few extra). I'll have more information on this in the future.

I missed that thread. Very nice indeed.

[+The Leprechauns]

If someone is so mobile that downloading 35,000 caches per week won't provide adequate data coverage, that sounds like a good candidate for a mobile application such as Trimble Geocache Navigator, the Groundspeak iPhone application, or the forthcoming Groundspeak Android application. I switched to a Navigator-compatible phone, and later to an iPhone, primarily for this reason.

[+Hynr]

If someone is so mobile that downloading 35,000 caches per week won't provide adequate data coverage, that sounds like a good candidate for a mobile application such as Trimble Geocache Navigator, the Groundspeak iPhone application, or the forthcoming Groundspeak Android application. I switched to a Navigator-compatible phone, and later to an iPhone, primarily for this reason.

Then why do you still need PQ-generated data sent to you if you can just browse on the phone and go?

Edited February 28, 2010 by Hynr

[toczygroszek]

What's happened since then?

 

Little bit more caches is placed?

[+t4e]

 

Let's say you drive your car from Kitchener, Ontario to GW8 in July and perhaps drive home by a different route. Give it a try and let us know how many PQs you will need to run every day so as to be able to stop at any spot along the road where the mood might strike you. Indeed, it can be done and the tools we have are great. But at any of the big urban areas, you will have the issues I describe.

 

Generally when I am traveling on vacation or business I know which area I am in, but not usually how I will drive as that is frequently dictated by traffic conditions and detours related to work or pleasure. Many times the location is dictated to me by the situation. So I may be in various locations within an area over the course of the day. In urban areas, such an area may contain 5000 caches (that is the case in my home area). I would like to treat caching information in the same way as all the other POIs in my GPSr. There are hundreds of thousands of those and I have access to the ones that are near where I am.

 

This summer I will be traveling through Oregon and Washington. I won’t know exactly where I will be on any day except that I do plan to connect with a few hundred of my friends in Carnation WA; I don’t know where the winds will take me before and after that, but I plan to see some of Washington (and perhaps Canada). Based my experience last summer, I am pretty sure that I will have to start generating PQs sometime in May and not get too hung up on stale data. Every night in the hotel room I will have to run PQs for wherever I am likely to be the next day. Personally I would rather be out with friends than sit in the hotel room battling crappy network connections.

 

I do need to underscore that I am well aware of all the workarounds. My point is that if I change to using those methods, then I won’t be needing my premium account anymore. I can browse the website with a Basic Membership on my phone and head for the coordinates that I see there.

 

we did go last year in kinda of a circle from Kitchener through Algonquin and on to Ottawa and came back a different route

while on longer trips we don't download ALL caches, we leave out the micros and the very high terrain

ratings

on the way to the chosen destination we run a PQ along a route because we don't want to stray off that route too much since we would like to get to our destination the same day

than the PQ's we have cover the surrounding area where we will be staying

the vacations are complemented by caching, we haven't yet made a caching only vacation

 

mind you, my husband and I, we both have Premium Memberships so we get double the allowance of PQ's

but neither one of us would want in excess of the current allowance we have

 

it seems you are more and exception to the rule as to how you have/choose to travel

 

i think most users have a planned route ahead, and of course there's always the possibility of running them when you get back to your hotel

[tiiiim]

[snip]

 

I would offer this thread as a place to discuss recommendations for redesign. If the system is working fine for you, and you see no way that you could be a more satisfied customer, then please place your comments in a different thread.

 

I agree with everything you say - today's generation want all the info available to them now: check any other website with a database backend and where you have to pay for access to that database. You'll get unlimited access any time you want.

 

Those who are happy with the current system tend to be very vocal on these forums (which is absolutely fine), whilst those who can see that the system is 10 years retarded tend to complain, get shot down (as is evident here) and don't try again. Good luck with this particular thread!

 

I think the most important thing from your original post is that if we want the data NOW, we can get it NOW using the iPhone app etc etc - but that doesn't need premium membership, leaving PM kinda useless...

[+baloo&bd]

Since my gpsr will only hold 2000 caches I have found I need to plan the pqs carefully when I am traveling. Of course if I ran out of caches I could always do some new pqs on the road or fire up the iPhone. So it has never been a problem for me. But with that said, when the 500 limit was developed it probably filled up most gps units (although my old Magellan could store them). With the capacity increasing maybe it is time to expand the size of the pq.

 

Even though my Colorado is capable of carrying more than the 9000+ caches I have in my GSAK db, I rarely put more than 1000 in. With a little planning, even trips that sometimes pop up on short notice, I have never run into problems.

 

Since adding the Droid last November, I guess getting more data is even less critical. The "limitations" that some seem to perceive would not lessen the value of my membership.

 

Sorry not to be in line with the OPs perception, however it only appears to be a problem for a very limited number of cachers and, even so, GC appears to have some sort of increase in the works. Unfortunately, I think it will impact site performance and no matter what it is increased to, the complaints will still be there that people feel they are entitled to yet more.

[+baloo&bd]

i think most users have a planned route ahead, and of course there's always the possibility of running them when you get back to your hotel

 

Or McDonalds, Panera bread, many Truck Stops, more restaurants than ever before and public libraries not to mention more and more towns, even small ones, are starting to offer area wide wifi.

[+baloo&bd]

I do need to underscore that I am well aware of all the workarounds. My point is that if I change to using those methods, then I won’t be needing my premium account anymore. I can browse the website with a Basic Membership on my phone and head for the coordinates that I see there.

 

Take a way your $30 and see how long the site lasts in it present state when only those that can not afford the membership use it.

 

On second thought, go ahead. They probably won't miss it.

[+CDXX]

If someone is so mobile that downloading 35,000 caches per week won't provide adequate data coverage, that sounds like a good candidate for a mobile application such as Trimble Geocache Navigator, the Groundspeak iPhone application, or the forthcoming Groundspeak Android application. I switched to a Navigator-compatible phone, and later to an iPhone, primarily for this reason.

 

+1

 

I do apologize as perhaps I am so new that I might be misunderstanding something, but I started out geocaching on a WiMo phone (currently the HTC Touch Pro), using the Groundspeak app as well

 

You can get the 50 closest caches at the click of a button wherever you are... an upgrade from the closest 5 for non premies.

 

For someone so interested in caching I don't see how suggesting that perhaps you might find the hangup to be in your device rather than the premium service.

 

If that's not helpful then perhaps you could stop for lunch/gas/etc for some wifi goodness... I cant recall ever seeing a Starbucks here in WA that didn't have wifi.

 

I suppose this might be moot with the statement from OpinioNate

 

edit: spelling

Edited February 28, 2010 by CDXX

[+Outlandish Traveler]

Greetings,

As a new member to the forums, I am searching for information on the benefits of becoming a premium member. I was first a little taken back by this initial post, but after reading further, I am really starting to learn of the benefits that premium membership may hold for me.

 

Any other points that might hep me with my decision of whether or not to upgrade to the premium membership?

 

Thanks for the information!

[+eigengott]

If someone is so mobile that downloading 35,000 caches per week won't provide adequate data coverage, that sounds like a good candidate for a mobile application such as Trimble Geocache Navigator, the Groundspeak iPhone application, or the forthcoming Groundspeak Android application. I switched to a Navigator-compatible phone, and later to an iPhone, primarily for this reason.

 

Very good point!

 

Alternatively one could buy a Geomate.jr., which comes with 250,000 preloaded geocaches.

Edited February 28, 2010 by eigengott

[+eigengott]

Any other points that might hep me with my decision of whether or not to upgrade to the premium membership?

 

Filtering.

 

Even though the OP complained about not enough geocaches in his PQs, many geocachers want the opposite: filter out things you don't like or (the other way round) filter for those caches you want. Interested in climbing caches? No problem, use a PQ with T=5 and the climbing gear attribute set. Don't like microcaches? Filter them out. Etc.

[+Hynr]

Since adding the Droid last November, I guess getting more data is even less critical.

<snip>

Sorry not to be in line with the OPs perception, ...

I am not clear on what you mean: You are fully supporting my point with your statement. You indicate that getting the data service of the premium membership is no longer as important to you... i.e. its value has declined. --- so how are you not in line with my perception that the value of the premium membership has declined?

Edited February 28, 2010 by Hynr

[+Hynr]

If someone is so mobile that downloading 35,000 caches per week won't provide adequate data coverage, that sounds like a good candidate for a mobile application such as Trimble Geocache Navigator, the Groundspeak iPhone application, or the forthcoming Groundspeak Android application. I switched to a Navigator-compatible phone, and later to an iPhone, primarily for this reason.

 

Very good point!

 

Alternatively one could buy a Geomate.jr., which comes with 250,000 preloaded geocaches.

Yes indeed; that too has contributed to the decline of the value of the premium membership.

[+Tequila]

I think the value of a PM has actually increased.

 

With the incredible proliferation of caches, the PQ system gives you the ability to download a significant amount (2500 / day) of caches and then use a program like GSAK to filter out caches you don't want to find. By putting them on your Ignore List you further increase the effectiveness of the PQ system.

 

I can't imagine trying to select caches without a PM.

[+wandering4cache]

Thank you Hynr. I brought up many of these same points a week or so ago in preparation for a 2 wk trip to GeoWoodstock. I couldn't see how I was possible going to pull enough PQs for all the miles we were going to cover even if they were just for a 1 mile radius from the road & filtered out high diff/terr simply because there are so many geocaches today.

 

People suggested buying a second membership, or a second 3 mth membership, or using a form filler with Firefox to remember my home PQ forms, delete them & create the new ones, delete those, and use the form filler to put back my home PQs.

 

And I'm happy to see that Groundspeak has plans to increase the #. Hoping its in time for GW.

 

I can work out the PQs for the routes to narrow it dow, but from experience, you know that when you attend GW, you hook up with other people and have NO IDEA where you are going caching. That's where it gets rough trying to pull enough PQs for the area to be able to load to your GPS at a moments notice from laptop.

Edited March 1, 2010 by wandering4cache

[+Mudfrog]

It's not often that i am in need of a larger than 500 cache query. But there are times when it would be nice to have.

 

For example, knowing i'm going to Houston but not having a set itenenary. Having to figure out, set up, use work arounds, and run multiple pocket queries to get all of the caches for that area is a hassle. I've tried and it ends up, at least for me, being a long and drawn out trial and error process.

 

Imo, it would be great if Groundspeak would allow premium members to run a query, maybe limit it to once a week, that would give all caches in up to a 100 mile radius of where that query was centered.

[+sTeamTraen]

Raise the data limitations an order of magnitude (no one should have to time-slice PQs to get a complete dataset of their home region).

It seems to me that a substantial part of Groundspeak's business model is, to a first approximation, predicated on people *not* having a complete dataset of their home region.

 

If I owned this database, I wouldn't want to do anything that would make it easier for people to access it without me seeing some form of revenue stream from that access. If that meant that I would lose 100 PMs from people who are disgruntled that $30 doesn't get them all their local caches, while I was gaining 1,000 PMs from people who couldn't get the data any other way, it wouldn't be one of the longer decisions to take.

 

Groundspeak, like any other company which makes money from putting data on the Internet, is a target. Not many companies, especially those which are not subsidised by media conglomerates, make a success of this business model. Groundspeak has a conservative approach, and they're still around. It's like that saying about there being old soldiers and bold soldiers, but no old, bold soldiers.

 

In other words, you haven't missed anything in this discussion, and neither has Groundspeak. Your hope of getting this data is entirely legitimate, as is their non-openness to persuasion. Both realities are correct. But they're the ones holding the data.

[+renruts]

HYNR- I agree the system in its current configuration leaves a lot to be desired for anything over a couple of states (metro area) trek. We are seeing some of the same limitation issues with our planning for GW. We will be departing and driving a northern route from Pittsburgh to Carnation. We then plan to be there a few days and from there head south down through to Texas and pack to PA.

 

The problem I see is the limitations for the PQ's of 5/500 with 40 saved. For our trip I will have well more than 40PQs that I would like to have staged to run, which is not possible with out multiple accounts. This model is the biggest limitation to me. If I could have unlimited queries created and sitting on my PQ page to run at will, and have the ability to run as many or few PQs per day to get the 2500 caches limit per day 35000 per week, then the model with the current data limitation may still be feasible, but the current strict model of 5/500 able to keep 40 plain sucks for any major route planning.

 

The problem is not with finding 35,000 in a week, it is the potential to find 35 across a 2600 mile span without having to adhere to a strict route and then burning a chunk of time during my trip to manage that data.

 

I too use the iphone app and think it is a good addition but in this case take a look across the country from PA to Carnation taking a more northerly route and then take a look at at&t's coverage map...

[+baloo&bd]

Since adding the Droid last November, I guess getting more data is even less critical.

<snip>

Sorry not to be in line with the OPs perception, ...

I am not clear on what you mean: You are fully supporting my point with your statement. You indicate that getting the data service of the premium membership is no longer as important to you... i.e. its value has declined. --- so how are you not in line with my perception that the value of the premium membership has declined?

 

The misunderstanding is probably because you picked out what agreed with you.

 

Basically, the value of the premium membership is NOT based in the PQs. In fact, unlike many, I don't view myself as a customer, but as a member. I am supporting what is a very expense undertaking (geocaching,com) and would still do so without the PQs, although after having them I would do so grumbling.

 

While I have my Droid, I would never use it exclusively for geocaching. While it may be accurate, it is not built as rugged as my Colorado, not to mention there are those still saddled with the iPhone. The dDroid can be used for those occasions when I might find myself outside the area of my DB (I keep my laptop with me and the Colorado has all 9000+ cahces in the DB in it) or I did something stupid and did not bring enough batteries, however as far as data goes, there are enough free sources to get me up and running. McDonalds, Panera Bread, many restaurants and truck stops, hoptels I might be staying in, public libraries, etc.

 

Right now the PQs are more than adequate and meet the needs of , most likely, 99% of the users out there. I daily travel an area of about 6000 square miles and do take many trips outside of that area. My current PQs pick up an area that starts in the middle of lake Michigan and goes all the way to Clinton Iowa with an equal distance going up into Wisconsin and down into Illinois. More, much more, than I need. I daily get the caches placed in that area and, when caching never have a cache loaded from a PQ more than 6 days old. While my numbers do not make me a die hard, I can only think of once or twice where I went to an archived cache that was not there. On the other hand, I know of 6 archived caches I went to and found. Guess that is a benefit.

 

If they do do it, fine. I will probably utilize it even though I don't need as much data as I take now. My issue is there are many more pressing things that affect everyone that they should be spending resources on, better PQ filters are a prime example.

 

Your question was about the decline in value of premium membership. No, there has been no decline. In fact, I still see it as a bargain. As I stated before, if everyone felt like you (you are in a very small minority) and let there premium membership expire and did not pay, you would quickly find how much value had still been there. However, I think you should make your point known and with draw your PM status. I have every confidence that you would be back much quicker than you can imagine.

[+baloo&bd]

The problem I see is the limitations for the PQ's of 5/500 with 40 saved. For our trip I will have well more than 40PQs that I would like to have staged to run, which is not possible with out multiple accounts. This model is the biggest limitation to me. If I could have unlimited queries created and sitting on my PQ page to run at will, and have the ability to run as many or few PQs per day to get the 2500 caches limit per day 35000 per week, then the model with the current data limitation may still be feasible, but the current strict model of 5/500 able to keep 40 plain sucks for any major route planning.

 

Raising the saved number of PQs limit would make more sense. Even though I still think the trip you described could be handled within the current system, it would make it easier for some.

[+JoenGPS]

I would love to have a way to download my PQ settings for each PQ to preserve the setup and upload them when needed. We travel to Maine every year and I have about 5 PQ's that are just taking up space right now. I use the same 5 every year.

[+beejay&esskay]

The problem I see is the limitations for the PQ's of 5/500 with 40 saved. For our trip I will have well more than 40PQs that I would like to have staged to run, which is not possible with out multiple accounts. This model is the biggest limitation to me. If I could have unlimited queries created and sitting on my PQ page to run at will, and have the ability to run as many or few PQs per day to get the 2500 caches limit per day 35000 per week, then the model with the current data limitation may still be feasible, but the current strict model of 5/500 able to keep 40 plain sucks for any major route planning.

 

Raising the saved number of PQs limit would make more sense.

Especially since deleted PQs remain on the server, so it wouldn't take anymore disk space to allow us to access them.

 

But it might cause some decline in revenue. I bought a second membership because I found the 40 limit too restrictive for my "standard" PQs and the number of route PQs I wanted to create.

Edited March 1, 2010 by beejay&esskay

[+StarBrand]

Yikes!!

The only thing I can think of is some of the whines I hear from folks all over these days - I WANT it, I WANT it NOW and if you do not comply - you are a dinosaur. All part of the instant texting, no patience, now or never mentality. You would think that it was nearly impossible to go out and have fun finding some caches by reading some of these posts..........

 

As one of the first folks to ever sign up for premium - I think the value is better and better every day. Thanks guys for the great tools.

[+renruts]

 

Raising the saved number of PQs limit would make more sense. Even though I still think the trip you described could be handled within the current system, it would make it easier for some.

 

It potentially can be (more than likely will be) accomplished but not as efficiently as one (I) would want. I mean look at it this way... I can create 90 PQ's delete 50 with saving the GUIDs in a spreadsheet and hope they are persisted long enough that I can recall them during the trip, but the bigger issue is that I would like to have more fidelity with the Number of saved and the total number of caches returned from queries.

 

I find that I loose a lot of data gathering ability due to the limits... For example I tend to run CAAR pqs and then supplement those with Regular PQs. One thing I commonly see is that my CAAR does not return the 500 limit and then I am unable to make that delta up on my next 4 PQs, thus throwing data away that technically I am allowed to gather on this day due to the limit of the system... Once again I can see those of you saying "you have never found 2000 in a day much less 2500" but that is not a valid argument by any means. The argument is that I have the potential for covering the area in a 24 hour period that far out weighs my data collection ability for that same area of interest. From there it simply comes down to the potential.

 

What would potentially help alleviate some of these hurdles is a fixed number of caches that can be gathered per day no matter how many or few PQs are sourced in conjunction with a much higher or unlimited number fo saved queries. For example it would be great to be able to search for 25 caches in every major town we will pass though that are Regular, 3/3 or higher and have been found in the last 30 days. Then from there be able to generate 20 PQs for those "areas of interest". on top of the 7 CAAR PQs that I will have to generate for the trip out and then the 9 for the return trip and then the regular PQs that will be run for each area of overnight stay... I feel that making the changes to how the current limits are imposed would handle most of the planning I would wish to do, although it will still require excellent preplanned execution.

[+Markwell]

There is another way to look at it - which is not really a work-around, but a concept that I have come to embrace over the last few years. How many caches do you NEED to have at your disposal at this very moment? I'm not talking about the area and how many caches are in an area, but how many caches you need between now and the next time you'll have cache data from a pocket query available. I think the upper limit of cache finds per day has been set somewhere around 200. So - with a single 500 cache pocket query, I have 2.5 days worth of caches. A single day's PQs can give me over a 1¾ week's worth of cache finds at peak performance.

 

"But wait - I'm spread out over a 15 state area. I don't know where I'm going to be."

 

The line of thinking that you have to be able to embrace is "I have ENOUGH data to be able to find a whole bunch of caches that I like in the area where I'll be caching. I don't have to find every one."

 

Here's how it works:

 

Let's say that your regular traveling region consists of these states:

 

 

I created a set of five pocket queries that were not bound by radius, but rather by state for those states. I put some limiting criteria on the caches:

*Size= Regular or Large

*Type= Traditional

*I haven't found

*I don't own

*Are available to all users

*Is Active

*Terrain >=1.5

*Difficulty <=3.0

*In those states

 

Then I did date ranges that gave me a little under 500 for each:

Jan 01 1995 - Mar 01 2002

Mar 02 2002 - Sep 10 2002

Sep 11 2002 - Mar 01 2003

Mar 02 2003 - Jun 24 2003

Jun 25 2003 - Oct 18 2003

 

So - I've got 2,466 caches (you can't get exactly 500 in each) - spread out over the entire territory, with no single area being concentrated, unless they happen to have a lot of caches that were placed before Oct 19 2003.

 

 

The great thing is that I have 2466 caches to choose from where I know that I have the criteria that I like when I'm caching on the fly on the road. They are all active that I haven't found or own. They are all Traditional Caches so I avoid tedious multi or puzzle caches that may take a great deal longer than I have. They probably knock out most of the lamp-post micros by eliminating Micro and Small, and putting the terrain at 1.5 minimum. I also limit the extremely difficult ones that are usually 5/5 by limiting the difficulty to 3.0 maximum. So it's a good subset - widely dispersed.

 

Here's an overlay of the Chicago area with the actual caches that match the criteria regardless of date placed represented by small red dots, and the big yellow globs are the ones placed prior to Oct 19 2003.

 

 

Again - I have a subset of almost 2,500 caches that I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy finding based on the criteria. If I were driving around these places, I'd most likely find them and consider my time well spent. I would think by the time I ran out of caches matching the criteria, I'd be able to get back to the PQ generator.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Markwell

[+Prime Suspect]

I would love to have a way to download my PQ settings for each PQ to preserve the setup and upload them when needed. We travel to Maine every year and I have about 5 PQ's that are just taking up space right now. I use the same 5 every year.

Easily done with any of a number of form add-ons, available for the Firefox browser.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I've been a premium member for a few years. Groundspeak says: "For $30 a year we offer you this." I think it's a good deal, and Groundspeak lives up to its end of the deal. What more is there to say?

I don't demand that it must give me this and that and t'other thing. That's not part of the offer! I can make suggestions, as others do. Sometimes Groundspeak listens, sometimes not. Its prerogative. I don't make demands. I don't go into the post office and demand that it let me mail two letters for forty-four cents. "This is the price. This is what you get." If you don't like it, don't buy it!

As others have demonstrated, there are ways of working out what OP wants. I plan my trips. Takes some time and effort, perhaps. But I don't demand that Groundspeak let me download everything. Not what I paid for.

$30 a year is a great price for Premium Membership, and for what Groundspeak offers me for that $30.

[+Chrysalides]

I can't say if the value of membership has declined. I'm only on my 2nd year of membership. If I feel that it has declined below $30, I'll stop my subscription. For now, I'm happy to remain a member.

 

Sure, getting more for my $30 is definitely nice. But I know what I'm getting when I signed up for premium membership, and none of those things have gone away. That doesn't mean I can't ask for more, of course. But I don't expect to get everything I ask for. Not even close.

[+Lil Devil]

I think the current premium member benefits are worth far more than the $30 they charge. I would happily pay 2-3 times that. Indeed, I currently maintain 3 premium accounts. When I travel, having access to all those PQs is certainly nice.

 

So even if the value were to decline, which I don't think it is, it would still be worth more than $30.

 

That said, I took advantage of Verizon's 2-for-1 offer and ordered Droids for my wife and myself, so ask me again what I think of PQs in a few weeks after I've tried out the new Android Geocaching App.

[+t4e]

i barely had 11 finds, and those were with my than boyfriend, now husband, that got me into geocaching, i didn't even have a GPS of my own, i had np clue what the heck a PQ was, but i decided to become premium member because i wanted to support geocaching.com just for the fact that the website and the service existed

i may have been a noob when it came to caching, but i have a very good understanding of what it takes to have and maintain such website

 

there are a couple more sites, where i am a member, unrelated to geocaching, where i simply donate once in a while to help them maintain the service, which i happen to find to be of value to me

[+JETSchmidt]

Concerning PQ's, I suspect that the limit on PQ's has less to do with GPSr capabilities, and more to do with database performance. With nearly a million active caches and however many premium members querying that database (not just a text DB, but one with photos, etc, etc), can you imagine the complaints ("I checked my PQ to run on monday and didn't get it until Tuesday, what gives?!? ") if the queries were expanded very much? Is 500 cache listings REALLY that much of a limitation ?

 

Did someone say they had to delete PQ's? You can have 40. You can only RUN five a day. With 5 queries, 500 caches a query, that's a potential 2500 cache listings A DAY.

 

I guess one thing I would like to see is the ability to Query for ARCHIVED caches in an area. Yesterday I spent a lunch hour looking for an archived cache. Yea, I know, why didn't I check the listing before I left for lunch? Dunno, I was on the road when I looked at the GPSr, and there was the icon, checked my palm for the listing, it was there, read the discription, went searching. When I went to post my DNF, I the cache was archived. Silly me. Last night I spent about a half hour updating my own GSAK database, deleting archived caches, and deleting them off of my GPSr.

 

Personally, I think my 8 cents a day for MEMBERSHIP is going a long way toward this hobby/sport/game/obsession.

 

Just my 2 cents (about 6 hours )

 

--JETSchmidt

Edited March 2, 2010 by JETSchmidt

[+edscott]

Since I'm not into the technical stuff, just into finding caches, I went several years without a premium membership. Now that I have one, I've found that just having the ignore list tied to the google map is worth the $30.

[+t4e]

 

I guess one thing I would like to see is the ability to Query for ARCHIVED caches in an area. Yesterday I spent a lunch hour looking for an archived cache. Yea, I know, why didn't I check the listing before I left for lunch? Dunno, I was on the road when I looked at the GPSr, and there was the icon, checked my palm for the listing, it was there, read the discription, went searching. When I went to post my DNF, I the cache was archived. Silly me. Last night I spent about a half hour updating my own GSAK database, deleting archived caches, and deleting them off of my GPSr.

 

Personally, I think my 8 cents a day for MEMBERSHIP is going a long way toward this hobby/sport/game/obsession.

 

Just my 2 cents (about 6 hours )

 

--JETSchmidt

 

archived caches will not be listed in PQ's, my guess is that it was archived after you run and uploaded to your GPSr the last PQ

[+Tequila]

 

Personally, I think my 8 cents a day for MEMBERSHIP is going a long way toward this hobby/sport/game/obsession.

 

 

--JETSchmidt

 

8 cents a day. That certainly puts things into perspective. My ISP charges more than that for the ability to receive those PQ's in my email.

 

What will we ever do if it goes to 10 cents a day?

[+Chrysalides]

Did someone say they had to delete PQ's? You can have 40.

I do occasionally have to delete PQs. 40 seems rather... ungenerous? I guess the real issue is the unwieldy PQ page.

 

Why more than 40 is nice? For starters, I need 11 PQs to cover a 25 mile radius of my area, any point in which I may get to in a week. I have PQs which are just a small variation on an existing one for specific purposes, but which I may not feel like recreating the next time I need to run it again, even if it is months later.

 

What would be nice is a way to capture all the info of a PQ in a compact string - need not be human readable. Every PQ can be summarized into a, say, 40 character long string. When you create a PQ, it shows you this string. You can enter this string to create a PQ (where it will fill in all the information for you and check the required boxes). You can email it to your friend (this is the query itself, not the PQ result, so no TOU violation) or post it here when asking for help in debugging your PQ.

 

Hmm, maybe a GreaseMonkey project...

 

I guess one thing I would like to see is the ability to Query for ARCHIVED caches in an area.

That would be nice. I'd like an API to query the status of a cache. Perhaps even a page where I enter a bunch of GC ID and it lets me know if it is archived or not. The argument against this (never officially by Groundspeak, though, at least not within the last year) is that "it is not in Groundspeak's interest to help you maintain an offline DB".

 

Just my 2 cents (about 6 hours )

You should learn to type faster

[+Chrysalides]

What will we ever do if it goes to 10 cents a day?

Oh, you know. The usual. "I can't believe they're doing this. Who do they think they are? I'll archive all my 5 / 37 / 126 geocaches - that'll show them".