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Honoring heroes vs. promoting an agenda


Happy Bubbles

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..... Honouring a soldier is glorifying the war, and that's an agenda. ...

 

No - it honors the soldier and what he/she did. War is not pretty, not likeable but it has happened in the past, is happening right now and will happen in the future. In all such battles - some individual actions will stand out. Some markers will recognize that - placing a cache nearby noting the marker should not be a big deal.

 

Placing the cache noting the marker isn't a big deal.

 

Using the cache description to provide an interpretation of the historical facts is promoting an agenda.

 

What the soldier "did" is subject to interpretation. To some people, that soldier is a hero who should be honoured, to others that soldier is an enemy who should be forgotten, to others the entire war is a disgrace that shouldn't be honoured in any way.

 

Geocaches are not the place to make these determinations. Geocaches can and should lead people to places of interest, and that's it. The geocache should not be placed with the intent to promote a particular interpretation of history.

 

I think intent is the key here. Is the simple mention of an event promoting an agenda? If I place a cache in a national forest and mention the name of the forest in the cache description am I promoting the agenda of the Nation Forest Service? I think not! Historical things happen good and bad. the mere act of placing a cache in a particular location to draw people to that location is an agenda. As for the OP's questions about this particular cache; in my opinion it probably is promoting an agenda but it's not blatant and it is historically accurate (at least according to the winners who get to record history as they see it).

Is it tasteful? irrelevant.

Is it a guideline violation? no

Would you publish this cache if you were a reviewer? yes

Would you publish a similar cache for a Japanese soldier at Pearl Harbor? yes

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There is no good reason why a cache description should reiterate the words on the plaque.

 

No good reason why a cache description shouldn't, either, if that's what the cache owner wants. If the reviewer perceived an agenda, the cache wouldn't have been published. And yet here it is.

 

This whole PC thing is going way too far. You may not agree with the citation for whatever reason, but that's what was said on the soldiers' Medal, that's what's on the plaque, I don't see how putting it in the cache description for that site is wrong, insensitive, or pushing an agenda.

 

Or should we ban all plaques, quotes, and historical facts from geocaching descriptions for fear of offending a nebulous 'someone'? We might end up with something like this:

 

"Cache is a square ammo box located at the coordinates above. The box is made of metal and was grey, but I painted it green with white daisies. I apologize if this offends any environmentalists out there."

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There is no good reason why a cache description should reiterate the words on the plaque.

 

No good reason why a cache description shouldn't, either, if that's what the cache owner wants. If the reviewer perceived an agenda, the cache wouldn't have been published. And yet here it is.

 

This whole PC thing is going way too far. You may not agree with the citation for whatever reason, but that's what was said on the soldiers' Medal, that's what's on the plaque, I don't see how putting it in the cache description for that site is wrong, insensitive, or pushing an agenda.

 

Or should we ban all plaques, quotes, and historical facts from geocaching descriptions for fear of offending a nebulous 'someone'? We might end up with something like this:

 

"Cache is a square ammo box located at the coordinates above. The box is made of metal and was grey, but I painted it green with white daisies. I apologize if this offends any environmentalists out there."

I am quite sure someone will be offended by the use of and ammo box. after all it was formally military hardware therefore it may possibly be promoting war. .

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I thought this was going to be about the current season of Survivor. But I have found a cache at a memorial in England honoring the volunteers who fought for the Republic in the Spanish Civil War. I specifically went there because I learned about the memorial by looking at the local caches I might want to do. If the spot ever freed up, I would want to place a cache at a similar memorial that is near where I work. I suppose this could be construed as supporting an anti-fascist agenda.

 

I have a cache that is placed near a memorial to two longshoremen who were killed during strikes and labor unrest that led to the San Francisco general strike in 1934. I suppose this could be construed as supporting a militant labor anti-capitalist agenda.

 

I also have seen caches honoring the work of boy scouts, which could be construed as supporting the agenda of the scouts and their stance on gays.

 

People are free to make up their own mind. I was not told what to think about the Spanish Civil War. I do not tell people what to think about the 1934 strikes. I guess the scout one kind of liked the good community work that scouts do.

 

In this case, the memorial and plaque is part of the history of the area, albeit one told through the eyes of the winner. You do not need all the verbiage in the cache description -- but if the cache page indicates that people should support the memorials point of view that is one thing, if it simply quotes it, perhaps it is another. I would probably cut to the chase and simply find the cache, just as I have done at memorials and caches that honor particular things that I might question. Despite my own tendency to go on too long, I rarely read through these things.

 

And like the previous poster suggested, I have run across cache logs signed by people who are offended by ammo cans. People who were having a perfectly nice day until they came across it and had a PTSD moment. But I still am partial to ammo cans in the woods.

 

So all I want to know is where can I get one of Clan Riffster's "Everytime You Hide A Film Can, God Kills A Puppy" t-shirts. A geocoin would be better. Sign me up for one.

Edited by Erickson
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So all I want to know is where can I get one of Clan Riffster's "Everytime You Hide A Film Can, God Kills A Puppy" t-shirts. A geocoin would be better. Sign me up for one.

 

Actually I thought it was "Everytime you hide a film can, God kills a Kitten". I wonder what he kills when you hide a blinky.

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So all I want to know is where can I get one of Clan Riffster's "Everytime You Hide A Film Can, God Kills A Puppy" t-shirts. A geocoin would be better. Sign me up for one.

 

Actually I thought it was "Everytime you hide a film can, God kills a Kitten". I wonder what he kills when you hide a blinky.

 

Every time you hide a blinky God kills a kitten on the endangered species list.

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But since your asking questions, I have one. Why is the largest percentage of visitors to the Arizona memorial Japanese tourists? Is it to revel in the victory of the Pearl Harbor attack? Or is it just because it is part of the history of WWII, or something to go see while on vacation in Pearl harbor?

 

<_<

I have been to Hawaii twice, and on one trip I visited Pearl Harbor. Its a very moving experience to say the least. As far as the high percentage of Japanese visitors, I think it has alot to do with the sheer number of Japanese tourists there. Since the islands are about as close to them as the US, there are a LOT of Japanese people there.

 

As far as whether the cache is acceptable or not, the stuff in the page is a quote from when the President of the United States presented the medal. It is a part of history. I also disagree with the statement that supporting or honoring a soldier automaticly supports war. The soldiers dont decide where to fight, they dont decide when and where we go to war. They offer their life to protect their country as the military leaders see fit. You can honor their sacrifice with out agreeing with the war they fought in.

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I'm confused.. Is there a plaque honoring the Marine near the cache? A lot of posts keep mentioning this plaque, but I re-read the OP and don't see anything about a plaque?

 

You are right. I went to the cache page itself as I should have done. GC24825. No plaque. Just an ammo can "hidden in honor of those Marines who went above and beyond. Semper Fidelis! DevildogLt.". Going back I can see the evolution of how the thread got to plaques.

 

There is reference to it being across the street from base housing. Could anyone other than a Marine or US military even find this cache? Does that make any difference? The one finder that is offended by it hates ammo cans.

 

Does the clarification change anything in my mind? Should Okinawans hide their own cache? What would we do if someone wanted to honor the Taliban? Beyond me at the moment but it does seem like the quotation has an agenda

Edited by Erickson
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Not true. Ever. You can honor and respect the warriors who defend your country, or the country of another, without glorifying or even slightly supporting the war they fought it.

 

One person's defender is another person's aggressor. Geocaches should steer clear of honouring soldiers precisely because it can be politically sensitive.

 

That might be, but there is no reason to get your knickers in a bunch just because the other side sees your defender as an aggressor. There are plenty of statues around this country honoring Southern soldiers. There is even a mountain being carved to honor Chief Sitting Bull. If a cache was placed honoring any of these I simply would not be the slightest bit upset. And for things that took place nearly 70 years ago it probably is time accept and to move on.

 

It is not for you or me to judge what people should or should not get their "knickers in a bunch" about, nor does it matter whether or not you, personally, would be offended by something.

 

The plaques, statues, monuments etc. are not at issue here. What is at issue are geocaches. Stop trying to derail the discussion with these red herring arguments.

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I thought this was going to be about the current season of Survivor. But I have found a cache at a memorial in England honoring the volunteers who fought for the Republic in the Spanish Civil War. I specifically went there because I learned about the memorial by looking at the local caches I might want to do. If the spot ever freed up, I would want to place a cache at a similar memorial that is near where I work. I suppose this could be construed as supporting an anti-fascist agenda.

 

 

You seem to have missed the point and/or not read the thread.

 

Placing the cache at that location isn't promoting an agenda.

 

Filling the cache description with a particular interpretation of history *is* promoting an agenda.

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I thought this was going to be about the current season of Survivor. But I have found a cache at a memorial in England honoring the volunteers who fought for the Republic in the Spanish Civil War. I specifically went there because I learned about the memorial by looking at the local caches I might want to do. If the spot ever freed up, I would want to place a cache at a similar memorial that is near where I work. I suppose this could be construed as supporting an anti-fascist agenda.

 

 

You seem to have missed the point and/or not read the thread.

 

Placing the cache at that location isn't promoting an agenda.

 

Filling the cache description with a particular interpretation of history *is* promoting an agenda.

 

Then the libraries are full of books promoting an agenda. And that includes the books in Japanese libraries.

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You seem to have missed the point and/or not read the thread.

 

Actually I read too much of the thread and not enough of the OP or the actual cache page. It seems more of an agenda when considered on its own, and not just something quoting a plaque that isn't there. But caches that honor people or events often are one side or the other on a fine line.

 

Should we go into a foreign country and place caches honoring our heroes? It might be less of an agenda if placed around Pendleton and more when placed in Okinawa. I'm still thinking about it with more questions than answers.

Edited by Erickson
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Then the libraries are full of books promoting an agenda. And that includes the books in Japanese libraries.

 

Of course. Even Dr Seuss had an agenda. But caches are not libraries.

 

For some reason, many people seem to be unable to grasp the difference between "against the guidelines" and "morally wrong."

 

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. There's nothing wrong with supporting a cause. There's nothing with having beliefs.

 

It's simply against the guidelines to place a GEOCACHE for the purpose of promoting an agenda. That's not a judgment against the agenda, whatever it may be.

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Then the libraries are full of books promoting an agenda. And that includes the books in Japanese libraries.

 

Of course libraries are full of books promoting various agendas and viewpoints. What is your point? We're talking about GEOCACHES, which are supposed to be free of agendas.

 

Mark your calenders because I agree with narcissa on this issue.

 

I will even go so far as to say that she has said what I wanted to.

 

Just because you can do something, does not mean you should.

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The purpose of the geocache is merely to bring people to the location.

Your psychic powers must be stronger than mine, as I was unable to deduce this motive from the cache page. Or have you spoken with the cache owner personally? Frankly, when I read the cache page, I sense a rather different purpose than simply bringing Person A to Point B. If that's all this game was, we wouldn't need anything but coords.

 

One person's defender is another person's aggressor.

I'm getting the impression, from the tone of your post, that you've never been a soldier.

If you had been a soldier, you'd know that, at the end of the day, we have a mutual respect for one another.

This respect utterly ignores silly things like borders and political leaders.

From a soldier's viewpoint, aggressor and/or defender is usually just a matter of timing.

 

Filling the cache description with a particular interpretation of history *is* promoting an agenda.

If you had paid attention, you would know that the cache page is not an "interpretation" of history. Rather, it is an accurate depiction of an event in history. Specifically, the presentation of our nation's highest honor. The presentation of The Medal Of Honor is an historical occasion, regardless of what side of the ideological fence you reside on.

 

For some reason, many people seem to be unable to grasp the difference between "against the guidelines" and "morally wrong."

For some reason, many folks seem to be unable to grasp that this cache is neither against the guidelines or morally wrong.

 

"Nuke A Gay Whale For Jesus" geocoin. ;)

 

 

Where in the blazes did that come from? <_<

A nonsensical discussion regarding coins. The talked turned to potentially offensive coins, and if it would be possible to come up with one coin that would offend everybody who saw it. That was the best I could come up with, given short notice... and limited amounts of English porter. :) Since then it has evolved into kind of a battle cry for common sense. When folks start making silly noises about how someone, somewhere, might possibly be offended by something utterly benign, that coin idea pops into my head.

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Well it is not asking us to honor and revere Major Courtney, it just presents the commendation so there is no agenda. At least from what you presented. Tasteful? Since you did not give more information on the cache that is pretty hard to answer. I don't see any reason why it should not be published if it meets the guidelines for no agenda. As for a cache honoring a Japanese pilot in Hawaii, well I might not agree with it, but the cache owner is entitled to his or her opinions and I have mine. Would I be offended? No, I served in the Armed Forces so someone could do that, even if I didn't agree. Would it inflame some people, I imagine it would. Is there a high chance it will get stolen? Probably. Would I publish a cache in Hawaii in honor of a Japanese pilot? Nope.

 

But since your asking questions, I have one. Why is the largest percentage of visitors to the Arizona memorial Japanese tourists? Is it to revel in the victory of the Pearl Harbor attack? Or is it just because it is part of the history of WWII, or something to go see while on vacation in Pearl harbor?

 

<_<

 

70 years later and still alot of hate for the Japanese people??? :) Time to move on. Peace & Love people ;)

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Well it is not asking us to honor and revere Major Courtney, it just presents the commendation so there is no agenda. At least from what you presented. Tasteful? Since you did not give more information on the cache that is pretty hard to answer. I don't see any reason why it should not be published if it meets the guidelines for no agenda. As for a cache honoring a Japanese pilot in Hawaii, well I might not agree with it, but the cache owner is entitled to his or her opinions and I have mine. Would I be offended? No, I served in the Armed Forces so someone could do that, even if I didn't agree. Would it inflame some people, I imagine it would. Is there a high chance it will get stolen? Probably. Would I publish a cache in Hawaii in honor of a Japanese pilot? Nope.

 

But since your asking questions, I have one. Why is the largest percentage of visitors to the Arizona memorial Japanese tourists? Is it to revel in the victory of the Pearl Harbor attack? Or is it just because it is part of the history of WWII, or something to go see while on vacation in Pearl harbor?

 

:laughing:

 

70 years later and still alot of hate for the Japanese people??? :) Time to move on. Peace & Love people :P

 

:laughing:;) Huh, now that's a stretch. What exactly was 'hateful' in that post?

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I'm confused.. Is there a plaque honoring the Marine near the cache? A lot of posts keep mentioning this plaque, but I re-read the OP and don't see anything about a plaque?

 

Well crud. I missed that too.

 

Take my previous post and change "plaque" to "historical event" and everything pretty much applies. There could be debate (in another forum) about the nature of winning sides to "tweak" the history of events and there could be a debate (in another forum) about the words that the President used, but they are still a historical telling of Presidents words, so no guideline violation from my point of view.

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For some reason, many people seem to be unable to grasp the difference between "against the guidelines" and "morally wrong."

 

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. There's nothing wrong with supporting a cause. There's nothing with having beliefs.

 

It's simply against the guidelines to place a GEOCACHE for the purpose of promoting an agenda. That's not a judgment against the agenda, whatever it may be.

 

You've tried to, rightfully so, redirect this discussion to how it relates to geocaches. You don't get to have it both ways. There are no "moral guidelines" on this listing site.

 

If you are truly offended then you can contact Groundspeak and make a complaint. I think if you look at closely at hundreds if not thousands of other similar caches you're going to be making many, many complaints.

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Well it is not asking us to honor and revere Major Courtney, it just presents the commendation so there is no agenda. At least from what you presented. Tasteful? Since you did not give more information on the cache that is pretty hard to answer. I don't see any reason why it should not be published if it meets the guidelines for no agenda. As for a cache honoring a Japanese pilot in Hawaii, well I might not agree with it, but the cache owner is entitled to his or her opinions and I have mine. Would I be offended? No, I served in the Armed Forces so someone could do that, even if I didn't agree. Would it inflame some people, I imagine it would. Is there a high chance it will get stolen? Probably. Would I publish a cache in Hawaii in honor of a Japanese pilot? Nope.

 

But since your asking questions, I have one. Why is the largest percentage of visitors to the Arizona memorial Japanese tourists? Is it to revel in the victory of the Pearl Harbor attack? Or is it just because it is part of the history of WWII, or something to go see while on vacation in Pearl harbor?

 

:laughing:

 

70 years later and still alot of hate for the Japanese people??? B) Time to move on. Peace & Love people :P

 

:laughing:;) Huh, now that's a stretch. What exactly was 'hateful' in that post?

 

:) If you don’t understand, there’s no point in trying to explain. You don’t get it and won’t.

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For some reason, many folks seem to be unable to grasp that this cache is neither against the guidelines or morally wrong.

 

I agree it's not against the guidelines, but moral issues would be a different debate entirely (for another forum). I don't think there are a universal, one-size-fits-all set of morals for every living being on the planet.

There's no place for morals in geocaching?

 

Really?

 

Well it is not asking us to honor and revere Major Courtney, it just presents the commendation so there is no agenda. At least from what you presented. Tasteful? Since you did not give more information on the cache that is pretty hard to answer. I don't see any reason why it should not be published if it meets the guidelines for no agenda. As for a cache honoring a Japanese pilot in Hawaii, well I might not agree with it, but the cache owner is entitled to his or her opinions and I have mine. Would I be offended? No, I served in the Armed Forces so someone could do that, even if I didn't agree. Would it inflame some people, I imagine it would. Is there a high chance it will get stolen? Probably. Would I publish a cache in Hawaii in honor of a Japanese pilot? Nope.

 

But since your asking questions, I have one. Why is the largest percentage of visitors to the Arizona memorial Japanese tourists? Is it to revel in the victory of the Pearl Harbor attack? Or is it just because it is part of the history of WWII, or something to go see while on vacation in Pearl harbor?

 

:laughing:

 

70 years later and still alot of hate for the Japanese people??? B) Time to move on. Peace & Love people :P

 

:laughing:;) Huh, now that's a stretch. What exactly was 'hateful' in that post?

 

:) If you don’t understand, there’s no point in trying to explain. You don’t get it and won’t.

I don't get it either. I am also happy that no one is going to explain it to me.

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For some reason, many folks seem to be unable to grasp that this cache is neither against the guidelines or morally wrong.

 

I agree it's not against the guidelines, but moral issues would be a different debate entirely (for another forum). I don't think there are a universal, one-size-fits-all set of morals for every living being on the planet.

There's no place for morals in geocaching?

 

Really?

 

For somebody that has repeated accused other posters of twisting his words and putting words into his mouth, I really wish that you would stop doing it to other posters in these forums.

 

I did not say "there's no place for morals in geocaching". I am not going to waste my time and words trying to explain to you what I did say or justify my opinions or their validity to you. Please stop picking apart my posts and turning them into foils for your entertainment.

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For some reason, many folks seem to be unable to grasp that this cache is neither against the guidelines or morally wrong.

 

I agree it's not against the guidelines, but moral issues would be a different debate entirely (for another forum). I don't think there are a universal, one-size-fits-all set of morals for every living being on the planet.

There's no place for morals in geocaching?

 

Really?

 

For somebody that has repeated accused other posters of twisting his words and putting words into his mouth, I really wish that you would stop doing it to other posters in these forums.

 

I did not say "there's no place for morals in geocaching". I am not going to waste my time and words trying to explain to you what I did say or justify my opinions or their validity to you. Please stop picking apart my posts and turning them into foils for your entertainment.

You specifically posted that morals should not be discussed in the forum. You may not have meant what you posted, but no one twisted your words.
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I just read a description of a brand-new cache that makes me feel uncomfortable. ...

 

You have a complex subject. Wars are fought by the common man. There are hero's on all sides of the war who saved the lives of their fellow soldiers typically by killing the opposing forces who are doing there best to kill them (and thereby save their own skins and fellow soldiers). Collateral damage (killing nurses hiding in a cave) is unavoidable, regretful, and will haunt forever the person who did it and yet changes nothing that they were non combatants and none of that changes that almost to a man (certain Teir 1 forces excepted) the soldiers fighting would rather be home mowing the lawn, or complaining about the neighbors dog.

 

War is an ugly brutal business. Even the side that has the higher moral ground will commit ugly acts.

 

The story of war, from all sides and every angle is worth telling. We all, and especially our leaders need to know the price that will be paid. That price needs to be felt. It needs to bring tears to their eyes as they vote to go to war, or tears to the president as he commits us to a "Police action" that can't be differentiated from war.

 

That said, there is a time for war and when it comes, whether we like it or not, we need to fight to win and we need to do what it takes to get it over with as soon as possible and it's going to be ugly, and brutal and scar people forever.

 

A cache telling the story of a hero is fine. That you are not comfortable with it is fine. That you don't like war is good. Never, ever let your distaste for war distract you from recognizing when the time comes and helping with the ugly brutal business that it is. The time to fret about war, and try to keep the peace is before hostility breaks out and we should all be pushing for peace at all times, in every way. Just not during a war. That's when there are winners and losers and the winner merely loses less. That less is worth a lot.

 

A cache telling the story of the nurses is also fine. It should even exist near the hero who may have killed them.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country"

Spoken by George C. Scott in the film Patton.

 

"There's only one proper way for a professional soldier to die: the last bullet of the last battle of the last war."

George S. Patton.

 

"Just drive down that road until you get blown up."

Instructions to reconnaissance troops, George S. Patton.

 

I could easily see the interest in a cache tribute to this controversial leader. He made statements both pro and anti-war and recognized heroism while teaching his men not to try to be heroes. He is on record on both sides of the issue, so would you call a cache honoring him an agenda?

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" nor do I want the powers-that-be to take any action on it; "

REALLY? THEN WHY ARE YOU PUTTING IT IN THE SPOTLIGHT???

 

"The citation contains some far-from neutral language, telling about "boldly blasting near-by cave positions and neutralizing enemy guns as he went," and how "Inspired by his courage, every man followed without hesitation, and together the intrepid Marines braved a terrific concentration of Japanese gunfire" and later "he instantly attacked, waged a furious battle and succeeded in killing many of the enemy and in forcing the remainder to cover in the caves.""

 

SOUNDS PRETTY NEUTRAL TO ME. FACTS. NOUNS AND VERBS.

 

"Conversely, how would most Americans feel about a cache hidden in Hawaii in honor of a Japanese soldier who died killing Americans at Pearl Harbor? Words like, "bold," "intrepid," and "He gallantly gave his life for his country" were often used in reference to kamikaze pilots at the time. "

 

WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT WHATSOEVER. THERE ARE NO POLITICS IN THE TRENCHES.

 

"This cache to me seems very distasteful, and disrespectful."

 

TO US IT IS VERY RESPECTFUL AND IN VERY GOOD TASTE.

 

"To me, it doesn`t seem like an appropriate cache for a guest to hide in a foreign country."

 

WE THINK IT IS VERY APPROPRIATE.

 

 

What do you think? YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY THE ONE WITH AN AGENDA WITH YOUR HATEFUL LANGUAGE.

Is it tasteful? YES

Is it a guideline violation? NO

Would you publish this cache if you were a reviewer? YES

Would you publish a similar cache for a Japanese soldier at Pearl Harbor? YES

 

Nobody hates war more than the soldiers that have to fight them to keep you free. :laughing:

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For some reason, many folks seem to be unable to grasp that this cache is neither against the guidelines or morally wrong.

 

I agree it's not against the guidelines, but moral issues would be a different debate entirely (for another forum). I don't think there are a universal, one-size-fits-all set of morals for every living being on the planet.

There's no place for morals in geocaching?

 

Really?

 

<snip>

 

70 years later and still alot of hate for the Japanese people??? :) Time to move on. Peace & Love people ;)

 

:laughing::laughing: Huh, now that's a stretch. What exactly was 'hateful' in that post?

 

:P If you don’t understand, there’s no point in trying to explain. You don’t get it and won’t.

I don't get it either. I am also happy that no one is going to explain it to me.

 

Nope. Guess I don't, and won't, and I'm happy about that as well. B)

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...

You seem to have missed the point and/or not read the thread.

 

Placing the cache at that location isn't promoting an agenda.

 

Filling the cache description with a particular interpretation of history *is* promoting an agenda.

Deciding that history is an intrepretation and picking and choosing the right vs. wrong intrepretations is an agenda in itself and has no place in the review.

 

It's only a call to action of some kind that creates an agenda that crosses the "no agenda" rule.

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Almost any cache is going to have an issue or offend people in some way. At the vary route of caching, we basically are disturbing wooded areas, even if it's slightly. We (at times) leave unattended caches that become litter.

 

Caches are placed near schools and ball fields which offend parents because they don't want non-parents and strangers around their kids. Caches are placed near churchs of one one denomination or another, which offends some.

 

If you take the point of the cache off the cache page, then all we're doing is wondering around in the woods, and not educating ourselves.

 

To me the agenda rule is enforced selectively. Having read through various threads to see what is, and what isn't denied due to the rule certainly leans to one direction of 'idealism' and opinion. That's the nature of selective enforcement. Frankly I feel certain 'agenda' caches should be allowed, as they already exist, in some form, and accepted by ground speak. One specific area is health and medical awareness. Caches for breast cancer, organ donation, diabetes (already exists in Travel Bug form), etc.

 

Also, many times caches are placed and information given, but historical aspects are removed because they may not fit the current desire of the Groundspeak owners and reviewers. In one case, a featured series of caches on local towns talks about the history of the towns, but leaves out the fact that one town was a 'sunset town' which mean black people would be arrested if they didn't leave the area before sunset. Does describing the correct history mean it's an 'agenda'? Probably, but then again, is it wrong to educate people to the full and correct history, even if a few people at Groundspeak don't want to talk about it.

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...

You seem to have missed the point and/or not read the thread.

 

Placing the cache at that location isn't promoting an agenda.

 

Filling the cache description with a particular interpretation of history *is* promoting an agenda.

Deciding that history is an intrepretation and picking and choosing the right vs. wrong intrepretations is an agenda in itself and has no place in the review.

 

It's only a call to action of some kind that creates an agenda that crosses the "no agenda" rule.

 

History is always an interpretation, and you're right - it's not up to the reviewers to choose. But when it comes to a politically sensitive topic like war, there should be heightened awareness on the part of the cache owner and the cache reviewer.

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Then the libraries are full of books promoting an agenda. And that includes the books in Japanese libraries.

 

Of course. Even Dr Seuss had an agenda. But caches are not libraries.

 

For some reason, many people seem to be unable to grasp the difference between "against the guidelines" and "morally wrong."

 

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. There's nothing wrong with supporting a cause. There's nothing with having beliefs.

 

It's simply against the guidelines to place a GEOCACHE for the purpose of promoting an agenda. That's not a judgment against the agenda, whatever it may be.

it appears that you want everyone to accept your definition of "agenda". like a lot of words in the English language the definition of "agenda" differs from person to person. Geocaching itself can be construed as an agenda. I believe every cache out there has to some degree an agenda. We have cache reviewers that do the best they can to keep it all within the intent of Groundspeak. After all their just guidelines. No way will everyone be satisfied. at least I hope not because when I place a cache with an agenda to draw people to what I perceive as special spot I don't want it not published because someone does not agree with what I find special and thus label it an unacceptable agenda.

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I'm getting the impression, from the tone of your post, that you've never been a soldier.

If you had been a soldier, you'd know that, at the end of the day, we have a mutual respect for one another.

This respect utterly ignores silly things like borders and political leaders.

From a soldier's viewpoint, aggressor and/or defender is usually just a matter of timing.

 

How is this relevant in any way? The causes and effects of war go far beyond the soldiers, as you well know.

 

I am not saying that soldiers don't deserve respect or honour. I am saying that GEOCACHING should not be the platform for that. Nor should it be the platform for anti-war protest, or electioneering, or the abortion debate. Geocaching is a game, and I don't want to see anybody turn geocaches into personal soap-boxes, whether I agree with them or not.

 

I really wish you would stop attacking me, personally, for disagreeing with you. There is no need for you to be so aggressive, and your assumptions about me are WAAAAAY off-base. No, I've never been a soldier, but I've been a soldier's wife and am now a soldier's widow. But thank you very much for trying to paint me as some anti-war Judy Peacenik with no concept of what soldiers do.

 

In my country, part of what soldiers do is defend everyone's right to hold opinions, which in part means the right to criticize or praise the establishment as they see fit. I see every act of protest, carried out freely in public, as a tribute to the Canadian Forces. The freedom that Canadians have to openly discuss and debate issues - including the very nature and legitimacy of war - honours soldiers far more than any monuments ever could.

 

But still, I think that geocaches are not the place to honour soldiers.

 

If you had paid attention, you would know that the cache page is not an "interpretation" of history. Rather, it is an accurate depiction of an event in history. Specifically, the presentation of our nation's highest honor. The presentation of The Medal Of Honor is an historical occasion, regardless of what side of the ideological fence you reside on.

 

The fact that you view it this way does not mean this is the only way this subject can be viewed. There are many, many people who don't see it this way at all.

 

For some reason, many folks seem to be unable to grasp that this cache is neither against the guidelines or morally wrong.

 

Of course it's not morally wrong, but a different reviewer might very well judge the cache differently. If a cache like this is determined to be against the guidelines - which they often are - that's not a judgment against soldiers or the act of honouring them. It's simply a determination that a geocache is not the place for it.

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For some reason, many people seem to be unable to grasp the difference between "against the guidelines" and "morally wrong."

 

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. There's nothing wrong with supporting a cause. There's nothing with having beliefs.

 

It's simply against the guidelines to place a GEOCACHE for the purpose of promoting an agenda. That's not a judgment against the agenda, whatever it may be.

 

You've tried to, rightfully so, redirect this discussion to how it relates to geocaches. You don't get to have it both ways. There are no "moral guidelines" on this listing site.

 

If you are truly offended then you can contact Groundspeak and make a complaint. I think if you look at closely at hundreds if not thousands of other similar caches you're going to be making many, many complaints.

 

Um, you missed the point. My comment relates to people who insist on seeing enforcement of the guidelines as some sort of judgment against their personal convictions.

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For some reason, many people seem to be unable to grasp the difference between "against the guidelines" and "morally wrong."

 

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. There's nothing wrong with supporting a cause. There's nothing with having beliefs.

 

It's simply against the guidelines to place a GEOCACHE for the purpose of promoting an agenda. That's not a judgment against the agenda, whatever it may be.

 

You've tried to, rightfully so, redirect this discussion to how it relates to geocaches. You don't get to have it both ways. There are no "moral guidelines" on this listing site.

 

If you are truly offended then you can contact Groundspeak and make a complaint. I think if you look at closely at hundreds if not thousands of other similar caches you're going to be making many, many complaints.

 

Um, you missed the point. My comment relates to people who insist on seeing enforcement of the guidelines as some sort of judgment against their personal convictions.

 

Look, I'm with you. To a point.

 

I've seen many people get up in arms because they couldn't get a cache approved that supported many things. It happens here often that some people are not able to see beyond their agenda and realize the importance of the guidelines and understand how they restrict agendas. All so often I've seen posters say things to the effect of "why doesn't Groundspeak want to support my cache, don't they care about X?" Where X= soldiers/puppies/sufferers from disease/literacy/victims of crime/social responsibility etc.

 

But just quoting the words as they exist as a part of history is not a clear case of an agenda as they relate to the guidelines. (They were the words of the President, like them or not.)

 

My point is that you seem to be basing your opinion of the validity of this cache on your own set of morals and convictions rather than the guidelines. I'm not judging your convictions. Yes I agree that some people are taking offence at your statements because of their own moral convictions. Their morals are directing their comments outside of the guidelines but I think that yours are too.

 

What I've read of how the cache was presented it doesn't seem to be creating an agenda as I understand them in the guidelines. There is a way to create a cache in honer of a fallen soldier without crossing the agenda guideline. Again to my point, if the meer mention of a fallen soldier in a war, any war, seems to be an agenda to you then I think you'll find a great many of caches in both our country and yours that you might not agree with.

 

I think I've gone on long enough. I hope you don't think I'm trying to brow beat you by trying to be clear in my opinion. This did get a little more wordy that I had intended.

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My point is that you seem to be basing your opinion of the validity of this cache on your own set of morals and convictions rather than the guidelines.

 

It's unfortunate that my argument has come across that way. For one thing, I'm arguing generalities more than specifics. And, as I've mentioned before, I have nothing against honouring soldiers. I just don't think that geocaches should be the platform for it.

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My point is that you seem to be basing your opinion of the validity of this cache on your own set of morals and convictions rather than the guidelines.

 

It's unfortunate that my argument has come across that way. For one thing, I'm arguing generalities more than specifics. And, as I've mentioned before, I have nothing against honouring soldiers. I just don't think that geocaches should be the platform for it.

 

Honestly, I'm not a fan of it either. At least at this site there's some historical significance to the location, the event and the lives that were lost on both sides. There are caches that seem to exist to honor the fallen first and serve as a cache second. I usually pass on those because for the most part I agree that caching should be fun, light and more about the caching.

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My point is that you seem to be basing your opinion of the validity of this cache on your own set of morals and convictions rather than the guidelines.

 

It's unfortunate that my argument has come across that way. For one thing, I'm arguing generalities more than specifics. And, as I've mentioned before, I have nothing against honouring soldiers. I just don't think that geocaches should be the platform for it.

 

Honestly, I'm not a fan of it either. At least at this site there's some historical significance to the location, the event and the lives that were lost on both sides. There are caches that seem to exist to honor the fallen first and serve as a cache second. I usually pass on those because for the most part I agree that caching should be fun, light and more about the caching.

 

A lot of the cachers around here are current or former CF members, but military culture in Canada is a little different than it is in the US. Instead of putting out caches "honouring" things, they put out puzzles and multis that use the monuments or get you to do research, so you can learn about the history in a fun way instead of just having a cache description droning on about it. There have been several geocoins honouring members of the Canadian Forces.

 

The really nice thing about having so many CF folks involved in the cache community is that we have good access to ammo cans!

 

I think one of the reasons I feel comfortable in the caching community is *because* there are so many military people involved, and after being married to a military guy and living on a base for some time, getting together with the cachers kind of feels like home.

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" nor do I want the powers-that-be to take any action on it; "

REALLY? THEN WHY ARE YOU PUTTING IT IN THE SPOTLIGHT???

 

Because:

 

I'm just interested in reading a civil forum discussion about what is and is not appropriate on a cache page.

 

"Conversely, how would most Americans feel about a cache hidden in Hawaii in honor of a Japanese soldier who died killing Americans at Pearl Harbor? Words like, "bold," "intrepid," and "He gallantly gave his life for his country" were often used in reference to kamikaze pilots at the time. "

 

WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT WHATSOEVER. THERE ARE NO POLITICS IN THE TRENCHES.

 

With respect, we don't all live in the trenches. A war is about more than the soldiers fighting it.

 

What do you think? YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY THE ONE WITH AN AGENDA WITH YOUR HATEFUL LANGUAGE.

 

A question was asked. We can still ask questions. Labeling it an agenda is misappropriation of the word "agenda". Yelling in all caps doesn't help the tone of your posts. It reads like your shouting the OP down.

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My point is that you seem to be basing your opinion of the validity of this cache on your own set of morals and convictions rather than the guidelines.

 

It's unfortunate that my argument has come across that way. For one thing, I'm arguing generalities more than specifics. And, as I've mentioned before, I have nothing against honouring soldiers. I just don't think that geocaches should be the platform for it.

I really hate to have to agree with Narcissa, really I do, but she's right, folks.

 

Ignore all the bickering and off-topic personal argument and she is saying exactly what Groundspeak is saying... a geocache should be free of agenda.

 

I didn't always agree with that... when I was a volunteer radio operator living and working in a tent in a destroyed football stadium in Biloxi MS for 42 days after Hurricane Katrina I couldn't post a plea for support for the victims in a cache listing or in these forums, and I thought Groundspeak seriously didn't care... I was quite upset that this great method of getting the word out about something I really cared about was denied me.

 

It wasn't until much later that I learned of some of the many wonderful things that Groundspeak and its individual employees did to support the victims, without ever mentioning it, that I realized how powerfully they felt about geocaching remaining free of agenda... and I came to believe that they are right, and am now glad of it.

 

Groundspeak does provide a way for geocachers to promote most any agenda they please... with Travel Bugs.

 

The OP concerned whether this particular cache promoted an agenda. I do not think so, it simply states a historical fact without telling you how to feel about it or asking you to do anything about it.

 

If, however, I did feel that this cache was promoting an agenda I would agree that it needed to be modified.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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I really hate to have to agree with Narcissa, really I do, but she's right, folks.

 

 

I really don't understand why so many people insist on getting personal in this forum and carrying grudges around.

 

If I've ever made you feel like I was attacking you personally, I sincerely apologize. I always try to attack the point, and not the person, but obviously I've offended you at some point because you keep making comments about me.

 

I guess I just don't have a good enough memory to remember to be angry at everyone who's ever disagreed with me on the internet. :laughing:

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She is saying exactly what Groundspeak is saying... a geocache should be free of agenda.

I think that's pretty much what everybody in here has been saying. :laughing:

The difference is in what folks constitute being an agenda.

Narcissa seems to think the cache in question qualifies as an agenda.

The reviewer who published it does not.

Many folks posting in this thread also believe that it does not.

If I thought that this cache was promoting an agenda I'd be preaching right along side her.

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