+thedeadpirate Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 First of all I'd like to say that it is unbelievable to me that so many people would be so rude and inconsiderate to someone making their first post here. Disagreeing is one thing, but the type of comments being made here are uncalled for in my opinion. Generally I agree with you, but the OP kind of burst into the room and started making what read more like demands than suggestions or just ideas. Exactly. When you come in and toss out an idea that you think might be beneficial to everyone you will probably be greeted much differently than when you come in and start telling people what they should be doing and wording it as if it is fact. The way the OP actually posed his post could easily lead a newcomer to think that his way of doing things is in fact the way it already is being done. Basically, you come in with attitude, you are generally met with attitude. Quote Link to comment
+Shop99er Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I still say we should require hiders to hand deliver the caches to seekers. No, that would undermine my "Geocaching Concierge" service. We plan your hunt, filter finds to suit your taste, drive you to the spot, and for Platinum members, retrieve the cache and unroll the log for your signature. I thought Plantinum Membership also entitled me to an assistant to hold an umbrella if it's rainy or too sunny, gently spritz my face with water if I get too warm, and to hold my geocache bag. Oh, and serve those donuts. After all, Platinum membership is all about the donuts...or so I've heard. Ah, but it does. Here are some of my many personal assistants retrieving a cache for me: My personal assistants do things like: chauffeur me everywhere, push me in my wheelchair if need be (fortunately not for a while), rent a golf cart for me and drive me in it to caches, find and bring me the cache (but I sign it, gotta have some caching principles, ya know), bring the cache to me on a silver platter, and yes carry my bag, feed me grapes, bring me cold bottles of water, and I even get caches in the mail for me to log. Doesn't get much better than that! One of the nice things about being Ambrosia is having people in various states, and in particular, all over this state that are delighted to do all this for her. It is not a duty, but a joy and an honor. Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Okay. Here's the puzzle for my "Easy Mystery Cache". Do I really need to put Geochecker up for this one?!? Quote Link to comment
+thedeadpirate Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) << removed needless quote to appease those against useless use of quotes >> I'm sorry, but that one's gonna take me a few days to figure out. I'll back to you on it. Edited February 24, 2010 by GeoBain Quote Link to comment
+simpjkee Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Any cache that requires you to compute a stage must be required to provide a link to a coordinate checking application. There is no reason that any cacher should have to blindly search for a cache without being able to validate their calculations. To make it even easier, the cache submission page should provide a checkbox that allows automatic links to be generated for stages of a cache. I'm not gunna put geochecker or eVince on my caches. I do, however, make it more than clear that people can e-mail me. A few have and I have emailed them back within a couple hours. For whatever reason, a few have gone out searching blind and ended up in the wrong area. Not my fault! The problem with your approach is that if someone solves (or thinks they've solved) one of your puzzles they have to wait for you to respond via email no they don't. They only 'have' to wait for me if they want the luxury of verifying their coords with me. For those with a limited amount a time available to go out geocaching (all of us?) that may mean the difference between being able to go out and find your cache or ignoring it because finding your cache becomes dependent upon your schedule instead of mine. if you want to ignore my cache because you demand a luxury I haven't provided, then you're free to do so. Anyway, the 1 puzzle of mine that could have a geochecker is easy. I tell you how to solve it on the cache page and as long as you understand basic addition and multiplication you should have no problems. If geocaching introduced their own coord checker option on the cache page I might use it, but eVince is next to worthless and geochecker is ugly. I don't need or want their 'help' with my cache. Quote Link to comment
+bittsen Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Okay. Here's the puzzle for my "Easy Mystery Cache". Do I really need to put Geochecker up for this one?!? That looks like a meteor crater. Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 That looks like a meteor crater. Close. Subsistence pit for an iron mine. Quote Link to comment
+mc3cats Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 My feeling is that all caches are meant to be found. There are some cachers in the community that like to make their caches hard to find by giving ambiguous clues or red herrings with the idea of throwing off the seeker. I disagree with this line of thought. Puzzles and multis should have a way for a cache seeker to find the puzzle/multi cache. Isnt that what this sport is all about? Sure, make the puzzle hard and challenging, I am for that. BUT if someone has but time and effort into and cant find the cache, they should have a way to check answers. I make it a point to have every puzzle and mutli cache I have active, have a geochecker. Unlike some folks, I want my caches to be found! Quote Link to comment
GOF and Bacall Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 ...Unlike some folks, I want my caches to be found! Who every hid a cache they didn't want found? Even the most extreme are placed with the hopes that someone will eventually find them. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Any cache that requires you to compute a stage must be required to provide a link to a coordinate checking application. There is no reason that any cacher should have to blindly search for a cache without being able to validate their calculations. To make it even easier, the cache submission page should provide a checkbox that allows automatic links to be generated for stages of a cache. I'm not gunna put geochecker or eVince on my caches. I do, however, make it more than clear that people can e-mail me. A few have and I have emailed them back within a couple hours. For whatever reason, a few have gone out searching blind and ended up in the wrong area. Not my fault! The problem with your approach is that if someone solves (or thinks they've solved) one of your puzzles they have to wait for you to respond via email no they don't. They only 'have' to wait for me if they want the luxury of verifying their coords with me. For those with a limited amount a time available to go out geocaching (all of us?) that may mean the difference between being able to go out and find your cache or ignoring it because finding your cache becomes dependent upon your schedule instead of mine. if you want to ignore my cache because you demand a luxury I haven't provided, then you're free to do so. Anyway, the 1 puzzle of mine that could have a geochecker is easy. I tell you how to solve it on the cache page and as long as you understand basic addition and multiplication you should have no problems. If geocaching introduced their own coord checker option on the cache page I might use it, but eVince is next to worthless and geochecker is ugly. I don't need or want their 'help' with my cache. I don't consider it a luxury to be able have verifiable coordinates before seeking a geocache. I haven't looked at your puzzles but I've solved enough puzzle caches from easy to very difficult (one took over a month for me to solve and I know some that solved it that spent several months on it) to know that sometimes a puzzle will not always produce a unique answer. I've seen lots of puzzles which require obtaining answers from the web, where the answer may be different depending on which web site you happen to find. Being able to quickly verify that a solution is correct is not a luxury, but as I see it, a courtesy to potential finders of your cache. There *are* other coordinate checkers besides eVince and geochecker, but I suspect that most geocachers that solve puzzle caches don't *care* if they're aesthetically pleasing to you as long as they'll verify that the solution that they've derived is correct. While I certainly appreciate it when someone appears to take pride in the caches they own, at the end of the day you're not placing caches for yourself, but for others to finds, and I suspect most would rather deal with an ugly cumbersome online coordinate checker then send an email message and wait for a response. Quote Link to comment
+thedeadpirate Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I consider coord checkers to be a nice addition to a puzzle listing. In fact, I personally will pass right on by any puzzle that doesn't offer one. I don't do that many puzzles anyway. When I do find one that catches my attention, I prefer to figure things out for myself. I'm not going to be bothering the CO for hints. I'm also not going to waste my time emailing coords to the CO and waiting for him to get back to me. But, since it's very easy to see if a checker is offered when you view the listing, it is also very easy to ignore that listing if you do not find one. It's not like you're going to put in hours of work solving a puzzle and suddenly realize there is no way to verify the coords. While I would most definitely support the OP if he were encouraging CO's to include checkers, I'm not going to support requiring every puzzle to offer one. Quote Link to comment
+fizzymagic Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 ...I've solved enough puzzle caches from easy to very difficult (one took over a month for me to solve and I know some that solved it that spent several months on it) to know that sometimes a puzzle will not always produce a unique answer. Usually, that is the result of a not-so-great puzzle. I try very hard to create puzzles where you know you have the correct answer when you get it. There is no need for a checker for those puzzles. On the other hand, I appreciate checkers for puzzles with less well-defined answers. Quote Link to comment
+WRITE SHOP ROBERT Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) I don't consider it a luxury to be able have verifiable coordinates before seeking a geocache. OK, so I'm not really big on puzzles, but isn't that risk part of the fun in going for them. You won't know for sure if you've solved the puzzle correctly until you go to look for the Cache. Providing a checker, or verifying the solution certainly IS a Luxury. I'm not going to verify the solution on my puzzle Caches. Solve the puzzle, then take your chances that you were right. Although there's not much room for error in mine, you'll know if you were right even if you don't find the Cache. Edited February 24, 2010 by WRITE SHOP ROBERT Quote Link to comment
+WRITE SHOP ROBERT Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 My feeling is that all caches are meant to be found. That's true as far as I know, But...not all Caches are meant to be found by all Ccahers. My Caches are only meant to be found by those who wish to put in the effort required. Quote Link to comment
+simpjkee Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) I don't consider it a luxury to be able have verifiable coordinates before seeking a geocache. I haven't looked at your puzzles but I've solved enough puzzle caches from easy to very difficult (one took over a month for me to solve and I know some that solved it that spent several months on it) to know that sometimes a puzzle will not always produce a unique answer. I've seen lots of puzzles which require obtaining answers from the web, where the answer may be different depending on which web site you happen to find. Being able to quickly verify that a solution is correct is not a luxury, but as I see it, a courtesy to potential finders of your cache. There *are* other coordinate checkers besides eVince and geochecker, but I suspect that most geocachers that solve puzzle caches don't *care* if they're aesthetically pleasing to you as long as they'll verify that the solution that they've derived is correct. While I certainly appreciate it when someone appears to take pride in the caches they own, at the end of the day you're not placing caches for yourself, but for others to finds, and I suspect most would rather deal with an ugly cumbersome online coordinate checker then send an email message and wait for a response. I care if it is aesthetically pleasing to me. After all, it is my listing for my cache, right? I see what you're saying and I've worked on a lot of the same kinda puzzles and know where you are coming from. Honestly though, my cache is my cache. My listing is my listing. I'm not gunna change my opinions on what I think my listing should look like just to satisfy other cachers who just want their coords verified instantaneously instead of within 2 hours. As owner, it is my choice to decide what my cache and listing looks like. It is the finders choice to decide if they want to pursue my cache or not. If I get less finders and more ignorers because I don't want a checker on my cache page, I'm content with that. Trust me, I take A LOT of pride in my caches. Edited February 24, 2010 by simpjkee Quote Link to comment
+niraD Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I don't agree though that there should be a system to just give you the coordinates for puzzles or multi's that would take away from the purpose and challenge of the cache. A checker requires that you figure it out first, so you've still had to do the work, so in my opinion that doesn't really take anything away.FWIW, checkers do not require you to solve the puzzle before entering a guess, and they can be used to brute-force the final coordinates without solving the puzzle. Quote Link to comment
+thedeadpirate Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I don't agree though that there should be a system to just give you the coordinates for puzzles or multi's that would take away from the purpose and challenge of the cache. A checker requires that you figure it out first, so you've still had to do the work, so in my opinion that doesn't really take anything away.FWIW, checkers do not require you to solve the puzzle before entering a guess, and they can be used to brute-force the final coordinates without solving the puzzle. Technically speaking, that can be considered a mental challenge unto itself. Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Disagreeing is one thing, but the type of comments being made here are uncalled for in my opinion. James, I'm reminded of one of them Bible verse thingies. Something to the effect of, "You reap what you sow". You'll find, as you hang out here longer, that the forum regulars are some of the most helpful folks on the planet, right up to the point where someone starts barking commands like a rabid dog, telling us how we must play this game. At that point, folks tend to respond in kind. Back on topic: If Groundspeak offered an optional, in-house coords checker, I'd likely incorporate it into any puzzles I build. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I don't consider it a luxury to be able have verifiable coordinates before seeking a geocache. OK, so I'm not really big on puzzles, but isn't that risk part of the fun in going for them. Personally, no. A couple of years ago I did a puzzle which required you to use an Ottendorf cipher key from the page listing to find numbers on a memorial to derive a set of coordinates. I "solved" puzzle then navigated to the coordinates about 1/4 of a mile from the memorial only to find that they would have taken me 200' from shore into a large river. That location was about 25 miles from home and it was several months before I was able to visit that area again, and by then the cache was archived. Driving 50 miles round trip to search an area where there isn't a cache isn't my idea of fun. Quote Link to comment
+niraD Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 FWIW, checkers do not require you to solve the puzzle before entering a guess, and they can be used to brute-force the final coordinates without solving the puzzle. Technically speaking, that can be considered a mental challenge unto itself. Yep. Some local puzzle caches are designed to encourage (or even require) brute-force solutions. It's a different sort of mental challenge, and it can be interesting. And I'm aware of one puzzle cache that provided a checker that rejected the correct coordinates. There was another (very clever, IMHO) reason for the checker. Anyway, an optional checker built into geocaching.com would be fine. But it should not be required. There are puzzles where part of the challenge is figuring out which of multiple possible locations is the correct solution. There are cache owners that don't want their puzzle solutions brute-forced via a checker. There are puzzles where the final location isn't provided as a set of coordinates, so seekers shouldn't have any coordinates to verify. And so on. And yes, I've got a DNF for a distant puzzle cache where I realized afterwards (while logging the DNF) that I had misinterpreted the digits. I'll try to search the (hopefully) correct location the next time I'm in the area. IMHO, it's all part of the game. Quote Link to comment
+simpjkee Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I don't consider it a luxury to be able have verifiable coordinates before seeking a geocache. OK, so I'm not really big on puzzles, but isn't that risk part of the fun in going for them. Personally, no. A couple of years ago I did a puzzle which required you to use an Ottendorf cipher key from the page listing to find numbers on a memorial to derive a set of coordinates. I "solved" puzzle then navigated to the coordinates about 1/4 of a mile from the memorial only to find that they would have taken me 200' from shore into a large river. That location was about 25 miles from home and it was several months before I was able to visit that area again, and by then the cache was archived. Driving 50 miles round trip to search an area where there isn't a cache isn't my idea of fun. Just to throw it out there. I DNF'd a puzzle cache 700 miles from my home while on vacation. Got home, figured out my mistake, and went back on vacation a year later and found the cache. Quote Link to comment
+niraD Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Just to throw it out there. I DNF'd a puzzle cache 700 miles from my home while on vacation. Got home, figured out my mistake, and went back on vacation a year later and found the cache.I did something similar with an on-site puzzle about 300 miles from home. The first year's vacation, I finally gave up because my wife had finished the book she brought to read while I was geocaching. On vacation again a year later, I returned and solved it within seconds. Again, IMHO, it's all part of the game. Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 Just to throw it out there. I DNF'd a puzzle cache 700 miles from my home while on vacation. Got home, figured out my mistake, and went back on vacation a year later and found the cache.I did something similar with an on-site puzzle about 300 miles from home. The first year's vacation, I finally gave up because my wife had finished the book she brought to read while I was geocaching. On vacation again a year later, I returned and solved it within seconds. Again, IMHO, it's all part of the game. Although it wasn't on a puzzle cache, there is a cache about 750 miles from me that I searched for several times during the week while I was on vacation. It was close to where I was staying and near the road so it was easy to get to and spend some time searching for it. I wanted to look one more time as we left for home but there was a muggle sitting right next to where I thought the cache might be. The area was a place where I've vacationed may 10 times in the past 15 years so I figured I'd be back. Perhaps next year we'll go back and I'll finally be able to find that cache. That's not the cache farthest away from home that I DNFd on then came back to find on a subsequent visit. There are two of them in Rome (4323 miles from home) that I DNFd on the first time I looked for them but was back about a year and a half later and found them. Quote Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I still say we should require hiders to hand deliver the caches to seekers. No, that would undermine my "Geocaching Concierge" service. We plan your hunt, filter finds to suit your taste, drive you to the spot, and for Platinum members, retrieve the cache and unroll the log for your signature. I thought Plantinum Membership also entitled me to an assistant to hold an umbrella if it's rainy or too sunny, gently spritz my face with water if I get too warm, and to hold my geocache bag. Oh, and serve those donuts. After all, Platinum membership is all about the donuts...or so I've heard. Ah, but it does. Here are some of my many personal assistants retrieving a cache for me: My personal assistants do things like: chauffeur me everywhere, push me in my wheelchair if need be (fortunately not for a while), rent a golf cart for me and drive me in it to caches, find and bring me the cache (but I sign it, gotta have some caching principles, ya know), bring the cache to me on a silver platter, and yes carry my bag, feed me grapes, bring me cold bottles of water, and I even get caches in the mail for me to log. Doesn't get much better than that! One of the nice things about being Ambrosia is having people in various states, and in particular, all over this state that are delighted to do all this for her. It is not a duty, but a joy and an honor. Awwwww. Wot?!? So all this time, I didn't really have a Platinum Membership, just wonderful friends and family?!? On second thought, that's not such a bad thing. Quote Link to comment
+ipodguy Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I still say we should require hiders to hand deliver the caches to seekers. No, that would undermine my "Geocaching Concierge" service. We plan your hunt, filter finds to suit your taste, drive you to the spot, and for Platinum members, retrieve the cache and unroll the log for your signature. HA! Quote Link to comment
+narcissa Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I don't consider it a luxury to be able have verifiable coordinates before seeking a geocache. OK, so I'm not really big on puzzles, but isn't that risk part of the fun in going for them. Personally, no. A couple of years ago I did a puzzle which required you to use an Ottendorf cipher key from the page listing to find numbers on a memorial to derive a set of coordinates. I "solved" puzzle then navigated to the coordinates about 1/4 of a mile from the memorial only to find that they would have taken me 200' from shore into a large river. That location was about 25 miles from home and it was several months before I was able to visit that area again, and by then the cache was archived. Driving 50 miles round trip to search an area where there isn't a cache isn't my idea of fun. That could happen with any cache, regardless of type. My boyfriend once walked 18km for a DNF. It happens. Quote Link to comment
+mountainman38 Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 (edited) SNIP While not specifically related to coordinate checkers I'm starting to understand the angst that some of expressed about puzzle caches taking up spots where a traditional could go.... I'm starting to get irritated by lame traditional caches that take up spots where a puzzle could go. Edited March 12, 2010 by mountainman38 Quote Link to comment
+mountainman38 Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 FWIW, checkers do not require you to solve the puzzle before entering a guess, and they can be used to brute-force the final coordinates without solving the puzzle. Yah, they can, BUT.... Evince only lets you try three times, ten minutes apart, before it locks you out for 5 hours from trying ANY puzzle that uses Evince. While other checkers can be tried over and over, you have to enter the new security code every time, which is slow, but there's another little problem: even if you don't check all the numbers (only the last four for lat/long), you still have 10^8 combinations to go through. This comes out to 100,000,000 attempts. At say 10 seconds to punch in the security code and the digit you're changing, this would take 31.71 years of nonstop action to check every combination. The cache would likely have been archived early on in this marathon of fun. I've done the brute force approach a time or two when I wasn't sure about one number. As for brute forcing the whole puzzle -- not sure who would actually think this was a real problem on their cache. Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 But, the point is that not all mystery/puzzle caches will give you an exact set of coordinates. And that is why a geochecking program cannot be required. Intersection of these three circles, or Slog twenty paces north, will get you in the right area, but will not get you the exact coordinates. Quote Link to comment
+mountainman38 Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 But, the point is that not all mystery/puzzle caches will give you an exact set of coordinates. And that is why a geochecking program cannot be required. Intersection of these three circles, or Slog twenty paces north, will get you in the right area, but will not get you the exact coordinates. You're not arguing with me here -- I never said a checker should be required. It's annoying when a puzzle maker doesn't include one -- then I have to email them and wait for verification. Is it really that much better to have someone email you to ask for verification, than to provide a checker? It may well be -- I haven't had any experience on the puzzle maker side -- but I know I like being able to check my work right away when I think I've solved a puzzle. Seems like checking programs are kind of used by area. In my area, most everybody has a verification link in their puzzle. Other places I've solved puzzles don't seem to have many, for some reason. As for Groundspeak providing a checking program -- I really don't care who provides one, as long as it works. I like geocheck.org, since I can tailor the correct solution page to show information needed to get to my cache (I have one made, but haven't gotten it in a place where it can be approved yet). Quote Link to comment
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