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GOF and Bacall

Cache maggot arrested.

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Questions to be answered in court (if it gets that far).

 

1) Is a geocache litter?

2) Is a geocache abandoned property?

3) Is taking a geocache theft?

4) Is the evidence legally obtained?

5) Did Paul Repak know that he was depriving others?

6) Did Paul Repak have a misunderstanding about how the "game" was played?

 

Feel free to add questions.

 

as for #5 and #6, his letter clearly implies he knew what he was doing was the wrong way to "play the game".

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...You are diverging from the issue of litter.

 

Caches are personal property. They can be confused with litter by folks who don't know better. I've addressed it.

 

is an ammo can full of nice swag different than an aging tupperware container full of trash? how many threads have their been about the degradation of caches? if the cache owner is not maintaining it, is it litter?

 

every kid needs to learn there are people who do not play nice in the world - this gent might be just one of them. this is an "oh well kids, the cache is gone" kind of situation. moving on to the next one ...

 

is the absence of a cache going to cause long term emotional trauma? and how do we know this guy gets his thrills (as one poster suggested) by removing caches? that is assuming something that is not in evidence.

 

is a hide-a-key stuck on someone else's sign, billboard, power line, telephone pole or under a lamp skirt, really a cache? or is it on someone else's property and therefore has no right to be there? is a small cache with just a log hidden under a old tire dumped in the desert or vacant lot adding to the junky area?

 

yes, i have had caches stolen. usually the nice ammo cans full of good swag. am i irritated for a moment? yes. emotionally distraught? no. have i gone on a hunt and come up empty handed? yes. am i emotionally damaged? heck no. it is part of the game.

 

are we really at the point of "get a rope" mentality? over a trinket? or trash? this is a game fer cryin' out loud.

 

to even suggest the poor guy lose his job or security clearance over this is just way out of line. as is speculation of his mental state.

 

until the man speaks up about his motivation, all else is "what if."

 

just some random thoughts.

 

rsg

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The offender very well may skate on the charge. Too, it is possible he won't. Whatever the outcome of the legal proceedings, it most likely will set precedence.

 

I wanna know what the Cyber Operations Branch of the Air Force Research Laboratory employer is going to do with a person that they now know they cannot trust. He certainly has demonstrated his trustworthiness, and more than likely has violated any and all security clearances that he had (if any).

 

Increased scrutiny of this person's background may ultimately be his most significant threat. What else is he into (perhaps inserting malicious code or back doors)? His character flaw will not be isolated in stealing geocache containers!

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<snip>

to even suggest the poor guy lose his job or security clearance over this is just way out of line. as is speculation of his mental state.

<snip>

just some random thoughts.

 

rsg

One more random thought...

 

I do believe the "suggestion" that he lose his clearance or job, wasn't (originally) a suggestion at all.

It is however, a matter of fact when that clearance or job bears directly upon one's integrity, responsibility and trustworthiness.

 

(Didn't read all) of the posts)... I do not agree that he should lose his job. If he is in a position that carries with it (certain) security clearance(s), then he can likely lose them -- without them, he cannot perform his job that he may hold.

 

He did it to himself, we had nothing to do with that.

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The offender very well may skate on the charge. Too, it is possible he won't. Whatever the outcome of the legal proceedings, it most likely will set precedence.

 

I wanna know what the Cyber Operations Branch of the Air Force Research Laboratory employer is going to do with a person that they now know they cannot trust. He certainly has demonstrated his trustworthiness, and more than likely has violated any and all security clearances that he had (if any).

 

Increased scrutiny of this person's background may ultimately be his most significant threat. What else is he into (perhaps inserting malicious code or back doors)? His character flaw will not be isolated in stealing geocache containers!

 

until you know what his motivation may have been, it is not wise to speculate on whether or not he has a character flaw. he may have truly thought he was doing something noble and crucial for the environment. and who among us does not have a character flaw of one thing or another.

 

have you ever told a lie?

 

even a white one?

 

i find those to be a betrayal of personal honour and a major character flaw, but others find the "little white lie" to be a necessary component of smooth social interaction.

 

unless you live a totally blameless life, you really can't judge someone else and their motivations unless they have shared what those motivations might be.

 

what is that old cliche about glass houses?

 

we can not know what his employer thinks. how on earth can you say they cannot trust him? this is going too far.

 

rsg

Edited by RedShoesGirl

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it's very entertaining to see non-lawyers debating opinions on what the law does and does not say with actual lawyers.

 

I got a good laugh out of that as well. Google kings debating nuances of law with people with formal training and years of experience in it.

Unless I've missed a few posts here and there, I haven't read anything at all from folks with years of experience dealing with Rome, NY property rights laws or NY state theft statutes. No laws are carved in stone. They are all subject to interpretation. These interpretations will come from all manner of sources to include the average citizen. I would be more concerned if there was not a lively debate. :rolleyes:

 

I expect he is feeling very badly about this in the light of day.

Assuming the accusations in this thread have merit, this goober has been actively engaged in disrupting our game for several years. He has shown himself to be absolutely committed to the theft of our game pieces. Seems pretty sociopathic to me. I would guess his only regret is getting caught. Contrition requires that you recognize what it is you've done wrong. This clown thoroughly believes that what he is doing is justified.

 

He may have truly thought he was doing something noble and crucial for the environment.

If that's the best argument he can come up with, then this guy is a kook. I don't believe our tax dollars should be spent financing the lives of kooks. Especially those kooks who have government jobs requiring a security clearance. Several years of malicious, antisocial behavior should carry consequences. If this fidiot loses his job, as a result of his choices, I will lose no sleep over it.

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Given the minor magnitude of this alleged offense, it may not be injurious to his security clearance (should he actually have one).

 

But what his actions demonstrate is that he is not trustworthy enough to be placed in a trusting position. This isn't necessarily my opinion, but it certainly is to one of those agencies that perform security clearance checks and the industry or governmental agency that has those clearance checks performed! Rightfully so!

Otherwise, why waste the time, money or effort?

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until you know what his motivation may have been, it is not wise to speculate on whether or not he has a character flaw. he may have truly thought he was doing something noble and crucial for the environment. and who among us does not have a character flaw of one thing or another.

 

 

Vehicles with gas engines are much more detrimental to the environment than any cache could ever be. This doesn't give me, Paul Repak, or anyone else the right to trash or steal your car under the guise of "doing something noble and crucial for the environment." There are character flaws (i.e. gossiping, procrastination, fear of commitment....) and there are Character Flaws (theft of property, destruction of property, depriving others of their freedom to drive a car...or hide a cache....). The man doesn't need to be crucified, but what he did was wrong no matter how you look at it (thank goodness he didn't have a gripe with something like stop signs or railroad crossing signals...that could have been quite a bigger problem!).

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...You are diverging from the issue of litter.
Caches are personal property. They can be confused with litter by folks who don't know better. I've addressed it.
Whatever. I honestly don't understand why you made a big deal about it if that was going to be your boiled down position.
Umm. . .

 

You were the one who said:

You find a piece of tupperware in the woods. Do you open it (subjecting yourself to someones old moldy lunch), do you drive to the police station to turn it in (subjecting yourself to their ridicule and wasting your time) or do you throw it away?
. . . so it would seem it is you who is making a "big deal" about it, not RK.

 

How is one answering your direct question making a big deal? Seems you're the one making a big deal, or at least trying to draw attention away from the actual point he was making.

Mostly it bugged me because he went from a reasonable conversation about why this case may or may not be a slam dunk to prosecute to a position of "it's mine, so there".

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I believe this guys motivation was quite simple.

 

He believed he was better than everyone else and decided to prove it by being a royal PIA to people, knowing thinking there was nothing they could do about it. Thus, reinforcing his delusion of superiority.

 

Reality is harsh sometimes.

 

 

Don't make this guy out to be an innocent person. He deserves whatever punishment he gets. Whether he's fired from his job, gets divorced, or a little kid kicks him in the groin with tap shoes, he asked for it.

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...or a little kid kicks him in the groin with tap shoes, he asked for it.

 

Oh great. Why don't you just hand out tap shoes and give people a free ride to his house?

 

Note: :rolleyes:

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...or a little kid kicks him in the groin with tap shoes, he asked for it.

 

Oh great. Why don't you just hand out tap shoes and give people a free ride to his house?

 

Note: :rolleyes:

 

Kids can wear tap shoes. I think most adults could just wear steel toed mud stompers.

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Found the Cache...Took everything, left my fingerprints...is that a fair trade??

 

I know I'm a few days behind in reading this but this made me :rolleyes: , will be :huh: for the rest of the day I'm sure.

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...or a little kid kicks him in the groin with tap shoes, he asked for it.

 

Oh great. Why don't you just hand out tap shoes and give people a free ride to his house?

 

Note: :rolleyes:

 

Kids can wear tap shoes. I think most adults could just wear steel toed mud stompers.

 

Well, taps are just the gateway shoe to steel-toed mud stompers. But this is how it starts- first you bring boots then he shows up with crampons. It's a never ending, self supporting cycle of escalation.

 

Again: :huh:

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I got a good laugh out of that as well. Google kings debating nuances of law with people with formal training and years of experience in it.

 

Don't underestimate the power of "Google kings."

 

A couple years ago a collection agency placed a derogatory item on my credit report for an account that was not mine. I sent them documentation and requested that they remove it. They didn't, so I sued them. We ended up in court, them represented by one of the largest collection law firms in the state and me representing myself. I won.

 

The law doesn't always follow "common sense," but it also doesn't take a genius to read it and understand what it means. Those fancy law degrees are mostly a matter of marketing, and the licensing requirements are just a way of keeping the fees high.

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"Paul

 

I think that would be a very good gesture. I am not going to put a number on anything, because I can only speak for my self and bluegirl as to the damage you have caused in our area. I wouldn't even know where to begin to come up with a count or total value. Again, I think you should just do what you feel is right.

 

On the 27th of this month, 80-100 geocachers ( a good number of them being those of whom you affected) will meet here in Long Lake for our Annual mid-winter Event. Maybe use this as your chance. Again, I'm not going to tell you what to do.

 

I do want to ask you "why" and how you might suggest we can prevent anyone else from going down your path? What was it about our sport that you did not like? Knowing this may help us to better educate and/ or help modify our ways.

 

Shane"

 

 

"Shane,

 

While taking part in your meeting sounds interesting, you know that I while I am charged by the legal system that I am ill advised to speak on anything relating to the situation or my alleged participation in any of it. For the future I'd be happy to research what the problems are and converse about the evolution and future of outdoor activities of all kinds, and to learn about this geocaching community to educate myself and others. I have already learned far more than I knew previously, particularly about how the sport works and expectations. But I am also extremely embarrassed within my family, my friends, my coworkers and my community in the way events the other evening unrolled and were reported. I also cannot comment further on those effects at this time.

 

But until I hear words to the effect "charges are dropped, case dismissed" this is a nightmare and it is difficult to be positive until that happens, and even with that outcome considerable lasting impressionable damage has been done to me and my family already. As I learn more about the sport however, I'll bet that there are ways to contribute in the future in more ways than one. Education all the way around is always important, but If you had a benefactor willing to donate $500 or more to the sport, perhaps that may help the cause. As with any outdoor activity that promotes respectfulness from education, I am willing to work with you. Let me know what you and the others think.

 

-Paul"

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<snip>

But until I hear words to the effect "charges are dropped, case dismissed" this is a nightmare and it is difficult to be positive until that happens, and even with that outcome considerable lasting impressionable damage has been done to me and my family already.

 

-Paul"

 

:rolleyes::huh: World's tiniest violin is playing for this guy. You'd think he didn't bring it on himself.

 

 

As I learn more about the sport however, I'll bet that there are ways to contribute in the future in more ways than one. Education all the way around is always important, but If you had a benefactor willing to donate $500 or more to the sport, perhaps that may help the cause. As with any outdoor activity that promotes respectfulness from education, I am willing to work with you. Let me know what you and the others think.

 

-Paul"

 

Is this a 'if I bribe you, will you go away' deal? Hey, maybe he'll try giving back $500 worth of swag, geocoins, and travel bugs! But how nice that he's willing to work with us after wrecking geocaching in that area for several years. So big-hearted.

 

Yes, I'm feeling sarcastic today... must be the weather. Bloody snow. :P

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"Paul

 

I think that would be a very good gesture. I am not going to put a number on anything, because I can only speak for my self and bluegirl as to the damage you have caused in our area. I wouldn't even know where to begin to come up with a count or total value. Again, I think you should just do what you feel is right.

 

On the 27th of this month, 80-100 geocachers ( a good number of them being those of whom you affected) will meet here in Long Lake for our Annual mid-winter Event. Maybe use this as your chance. Again, I'm not going to tell you what to do.

 

I do want to ask you "why" and how you might suggest we can prevent anyone else from going down your path? What was it about our sport that you did not like? Knowing this may help us to better educate and/ or help modify our ways.

 

Shane"

 

 

"Shane,

 

While taking part in your meeting sounds interesting, you know that I while I am charged by the legal system that I am ill advised to speak on anything relating to the situation or my alleged participation in any of it. For the future I'd be happy to research what the problems are and converse about the evolution and future of outdoor activities of all kinds, and to learn about this geocaching community to educate myself and others. I have already learned far more than I knew previously, particularly about how the sport works and expectations. But I am also extremely embarrassed within my family, my friends, my coworkers and my community in the way events the other evening unrolled and were reported. I also cannot comment further on those effects at this time.

 

But until I hear words to the effect "charges are dropped, case dismissed" this is a nightmare and it is difficult to be positive until that happens, and even with that outcome considerable lasting impressionable damage has been done to me and my family already. As I learn more about the sport however, I'll bet that there are ways to contribute in the future in more ways than one. Education all the way around is always important, but If you had a benefactor willing to donate $500 or more to the sport, perhaps that may help the cause. As with any outdoor activity that promotes respectfulness from education, I am willing to work with you. Let me know what you and the others think.

 

-Paul"

 

Does anyone read this other than "If I give you $500, will you drop the charges?"

 

"alleged" participation?

 

Yeah, he sounds very remorseful.

 

I know better than to post how I feel about this in my normal way of speaking but suffice to say I think this guy is a jerk.

 

Yeah, he's embarassed NOW, after he was caught. Where was his conscience while he was screwing with everyones hobby?

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I come down on the side that says: Sounds like a perfectly suitable solution to the problem, $500 to further the hobby, an apology, learn about the game and promise to not do it again. Same thing my Mom and Dad did when I was a lad, pay for the damage you caused, say you are sorry, reflect on what you did and promise to never do it again. Have a nice weekend all. I hope to do some caching on Sunday. A most enlightening and provocative thread , where civility prevailed. Kudos to all.

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I come down on the side that says: Sounds like a perfectly suitable solution to the problem, $500 to further the hobby, an apology, learn about the game and promise to not do it again. Same thing my Mom and Dad did when I was a lad, pay for the damage you caused, say you are sorry, reflect on what you did and promise to never do it again. Have a nice weekend all. I hope to do some caching on Sunday. A most enlightening and provocative thread , where civility prevailed. Kudos to all.

i would think $500 is an insult to cachers in the area

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Well, you might be right, but I always make the assumption that people are capable of letting bygones be bygones and have a willingness to give everyone another chance. Oh, yeah that too was another lesson from Mom and Dad when we were kids. Now off to home, so I can do this all over again tomorrow. :rolleyes:

Edited by Packanack

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I come down on the side that says: Sounds like a perfectly suitable solution to the problem, $500 to further the hobby, an apology, learn about the game and promise to not do it again. Same thing my Mom and Dad did when I was a lad, pay for the damage you caused, say you are sorry, reflect on what you did and promise to never do it again. Have a nice weekend all. I hope to do some caching on Sunday. A most enlightening and provocative thread , where civility prevailed. Kudos to all.

 

To a younger person, restitution is painful. To this guy, $500 to "make it go away" is an insult to whomever was involved. This guy isn't a kid. He's full growed up and likely been responsible for raising kids to follow in his moral footsteps.

I can only hope that he is punished. Based on his attempt to make it go away and his little whine about his situational discomfort, I assume a little suffering has begun. I think he needs to suffer a little more though. As for his financial offer, I think he should increase it 25 fold or so.

 

As I said before. I hope he gets everything he deserves.

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we can not know what his employer thinks. how on earth can you say they cannot trust him? this is going too far.

 

rsg

we can know how the AF responds to similar circumstances

 

similar circumstances? and how do you know exactly how the AF responds? first hand experience?

 

we don't know anything yet but people are willing to let this guy get divorced, lose his job, for what, a game piece? where is the logic? unless you guys are perfect, quit throwing stones.

 

unbelievable.

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we can not know what his employer thinks. how on earth can you say they cannot trust him? this is going too far.

 

rsg

we can know how the AF responds to similar circumstances

 

similar circumstances? and how do you know exactly how the AF responds? first hand experience?

 

we don't know anything yet but people are willing to let this guy get divorced, lose his job, for what, a game piece? where is the logic? unless you guys are perfect, quit throwing stones.

 

unbelievable.

i would say from reading news items of what happens to government contractors with security clearance when they get arrested.

 

we do know some things by the three different reports of the incidents (or else this is a really elaborate prank) and people are free to speculate on what will happen - for the most part, it seems to be a key component of the 'sport' of internet message board trolling

 

for a game piece? i think i speak for most when i say more people would have the same attitude as yourself about one game piece, but this was in the thousands. but even in the case of it being just one game piece, IF he broke the law, he deserves whatever punishment the courts handout.

Edited by Chig-gar-roo-gar-rem

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I come down on the side that says: Sounds like a perfectly suitable solution to the problem, $500 to further the hobby, an apology, learn about the game and promise to not do it again. Same thing my Mom and Dad did when I was a lad, pay for the damage you caused, say you are sorry, reflect on what you did and promise to never do it again. Have a nice weekend all. I hope to do some caching on Sunday. A most enlightening and provocative thread , where civility prevailed. Kudos to all.

 

To a younger person, restitution is painful. To this guy, $500 to "make it go away" is an insult to whomever was involved. This guy isn't a kid. He's full growed up and likely been responsible for raising kids to follow in his moral footsteps.

I can only hope that he is punished. Based on his attempt to make it go away and his little whine about his situational discomfort, I assume a little suffering has begun. I think he needs to suffer a little more though. As for his financial offer, I think he should increase it 25 fold or so.

 

As I said before. I hope he gets everything he deserves.

 

I vote we all just chip in on airfare and let Bittsen fly over and take care of this guy. :rolleyes:

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I come down on the side that says: Sounds like a perfectly suitable solution to the problem, $500 to further the hobby, an apology, learn about the game and promise to not do it again. Same thing my Mom and Dad did when I was a lad, pay for the damage you caused, say you are sorry, reflect on what you did and promise to never do it again. Have a nice weekend all. I hope to do some caching on Sunday. A most enlightening and provocative thread , where civility prevailed. Kudos to all.

 

To a younger person, restitution is painful. To this guy, $500 to "make it go away" is an insult to whomever was involved. This guy isn't a kid. He's full growed up and likely been responsible for raising kids to follow in his moral footsteps.

I can only hope that he is punished. Based on his attempt to make it go away and his little whine about his situational discomfort, I assume a little suffering has begun. I think he needs to suffer a little more though. As for his financial offer, I think he should increase it 25 fold or so.

 

As I said before. I hope he gets everything he deserves.

 

I vote we all just chip in on airfare and let Bittsen fly over and take care of this guy. :rolleyes:

 

But then where is my plausible deniability?

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similar circumstances? and how do you know exactly how the AF responds? first hand experience?

 

we don't know anything yet but people are willing to let this guy get divorced, lose his job, for what, a game piece? where is the logic? unless you guys are perfect, quit throwing stones.

 

unbelievable.

 

Have you ever had someone prey upon you?

This guy is a predator. No different than any other predator. He was seeking his own satisfaction at the discomfort of others.

 

Why did he do this instead of torturing kittens? My guess is he thought that he would never be prosecuted for it. And he might not be but at one time a person wouldn't be prosecuted for torturing kittens either.

 

The point is this guy isn't a very nice person if he's willing to get his jollies by disrupting another persons harmonious hobby. He would probably have been outraged if his river paddling was shut down but wasn't having any issue with trying to shut down geocaching (in his area) through illegal and immoral means.

 

He's scum. He's pretty close to a terrorist. And what's most important, now that he's been caught, he's identified himself as a coward.

 

When the day comes that I am convicted of being a cache maggot, or torturing kittens, or deliberately causing anyone discomfort for the sheer pleasure it provides me, toss the book at me.

 

Perfect? No, but whatever I do in life that's imperfect is not because I want to cause someone else discomfort. I'm not perfect but I'm a better person than this cache maggot.

 

It's not about a "game piece". It's all about this guy being a colossal jerk (languaged toned down to remain within the guidelines).It's about this guy victimizing people. It's all about this guy breaking the law and feeling untouchable. He can't fool me with his whiney attempts for sympathy. He's no victim! He created victims (including children, I remind you).

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... Several years of malicious, antisocial behavior should carry consequences. If this fidiot loses his job, as a result of his choices, I will lose no sleep over it.

 

 

seriously? why are you not hanging tiger wood by his jock strap for several years of addictive and anti-social behaviour. a sports star who by his own admission believed the rules were not meant for him.

 

i think this whole discussion of a person's (who you do not know) mental state, character flaws, antisocial behaviour to be alarming at best. we do not know the whole story, period.

 

do you really equate removing game pieces, whose very legitimacy is questioned, to be worthy of losing everything he has in the world.

 

this tells me more about you than it tells me about the person whose ALLEGED acts you are condemning. what kind of people are you? talk about antisocial behaviour. this is lynch-mob mentality.

 

makes me ashamed to be part of the this geocaching community. he didn't commit murder or sell drugs to minors. you place a game above common human decency. even if you say he didn't respect the game, you are doing so much more. all for the sake of a tupperware box full of trash?

 

it is appalling to say the least. and for each of you that are piling on, do you go to church on sunday? do you practice what is preached?

 

why has no one answered the question i asked about telling white lies? how about speeding? against the law. dangerous to yourself and others. but not one of you EVER speeds?

 

look in the mirror and tell me you see someone who never has made a mistake.

 

when you can do that, you can judge others. but not until then. and definitely not until all the facts known.

 

rsg

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prey

predator

torturing kittens

get his jollies

scum.

pretty close to a terrorist

a coward

a maggot

torturing kittens

deliberately causing discomfort for the sheer pleasure

colossal jerk

victimizing

breaking the law

feeling untouchable

Nope... no hyperbole here.

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...Have you ever had someone prey upon you?

This guy is a predator. No different than any other predator. He was seeking his own satisfaction at the discomfort of others.

 

yes, i have had someone prey on me. this is no where close. you simply can't back up your accusations. you are making assumptions.

 

this reminds me of the same conversation we had about placing booby-trapped caches. someone who seeks their own satisfaction at the discomfort of others. it was ok then, but not now. everybody plays the game their way. right?

 

>>Why did he do this instead of torturing kittens? My guess is he thought that he would never be prosecuted for it. And he might not be but at one time a person wouldn't be prosecuted for torturing kittens either.

 

He's scum. He's pretty close to a terrorist. And what's most important, now that he's been caught, he's identified himself as a coward.

 

When the day comes that I am convicted of being a cache maggot, or torturing kittens, or deliberately causing anyone discomfort for the sheer pleasure it provides me, toss the book at me. <<

 

you really equate what you call a cache maggot with a terrorist? holy sh*t. this mob mentality is much more frightening than anything this guy did. and how on earth did you get to the reasoning of torturing kittens? can you even hear what you are saying. get the stones out, get out the rope because that is what you are suggesting should happen to this person.

 

>>Perfect? No, but whatever I do in life that's imperfect is not because I want to cause someone else discomfort. I'm not perfect but I'm a better person than this cache maggot.<<

 

that is your perception. i think you are worse because you place a game over a human being you do not know anything about!

 

>>It's not about a "game piece". It's all about this guy being a colossal jerk (languaged toned down to remain within the guidelines).It's about this guy victimizing people. It's all about this guy breaking the law and feeling untouchable. He can't fool me with his whiney attempts for sympathy. He's no victim! He created victims (including children, I remind you).<<

 

oh, those poor victims out there. you poor poor dears. to call yourself "victims" demeans yourselves. you and your children are only victims if that is how you chose to see yourselves.

 

get over it, move on.

 

rsg

Edited by RedShoesGirl

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seriously? why are you not hanging tiger wood by his jock strap for several years of addictive and anti-social behaviour. a sports star who by his own admission believed the rules were not meant for him.

How many people did Tiger really hurt? 10? And in reality I couldn't be bothered if he lost everything. But, marital infidelity and stealing from people (even if it's only enjoyment he's stealing) are not equal.

 

i think this whole discussion of a person's (who you do not know) mental state, character flaws, antisocial behaviour to be alarming at best. we do not know the whole story, period.

No, we don't know the whole story but the fact that he's willing to pay money to make it go away is enough, IMHO

 

do you really equate removing game pieces, whose very legitimacy is questioned, to be worthy of losing everything he has in the world.

It's not about the game pieces. Get over the actual monetary value argument. It's about his victimizing the community for his own pleasure

 

this tells me more about you than it tells me about the person whose ALLEGED acts you are condemning. what kind of people are you? talk about antisocial behaviour. this is lynch-mob mentality.

Yeah, it's a lynch mob mentality. I wish we had more lynch mobs. There would be MUCH less crime (one way or another)

 

makes me ashamed to be part of the this geocaching community. he didn't commit murder or sell drugs to minors. you place a game above common human decency. even if you say he didn't respect the game, you are doing so much more. all for the sake of a tupperware box full of trash?

Again, you don't get the true nature of his misdeeds. He wasn't stealing tupperware, he was stealing enjoyment and replacing it with anguish.

 

it is appalling to say the least. and for each of you that are piling on, do you go to church on sunday? do you practice what is preached?

Yes, I practice what I preach. I don't go to church but I know of many criminals who do (or have)

 

why has no one answered the question i asked about telling white lies? how about speeding? against the law. dangerous to yourself and others. but not one of you EVER speeds?

Speeding is victimless (for the most part). Lies are a gray area. Would you want someones honest answer if it was unflattering?

 

look in the mirror and tell me you see someone who never has made a mistake.

Mistakes are one thing. This guy made a hobby out of screwing people over. I'm sorry you can't see the difference.

 

when you can do that, you can judge others. but not until then. and definitely not until all the facts known.

 

rsg

 

I believe the facts are known enough for me, myself, to pass moral judgment on this creep. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him. I wouldn't let him babysit my kids. I wouldn't give him keys to my house. I wouldn't trust him to feed my dog.

True, I wouldn't trust most people that far but I was making a point.

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... Several years of malicious, antisocial behavior should carry consequences. If this fidiot loses his job, as a result of his choices, I will lose no sleep over it.

 

 

seriously? why are you not hanging tiger wood by his jock strap for several years of addictive and anti-social behaviour. a sports star who by his own admission believed the rules were not meant for him.

 

i think this whole discussion of a person's (who you do not know) mental state, character flaws, antisocial behaviour to be alarming at best. we do not know the whole story, period.

 

do you really equate removing game pieces, whose very legitimacy is questioned, to be worthy of losing everything he has in the world.

 

this tells me more about you than it tells me about the person whose ALLEGED acts you are condemning. what kind of people are you? talk about antisocial behaviour. this is lynch-mob mentality.

 

makes me ashamed to be part of the this geocaching community. he didn't commit murder or sell drugs to minors. you place a game above common human decency. even if you say he didn't respect the game, you are doing so much more. all for the sake of a tupperware box full of trash?

 

it is appalling to say the least. and for each of you that are piling on, do you go to church on sunday? do you practice what is preached?

 

why has no one answered the question i asked about telling white lies? how about speeding? against the law. dangerous to yourself and others. but not one of you EVER speeds?

 

look in the mirror and tell me you see someone who never has made a mistake.

 

when you can do that, you can judge others. but not until then. and definitely not until all the facts known.

 

rsg

 

Ok we've heard the minority response.. now back to our regular programming.....

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... Several years of malicious, antisocial behavior should carry consequences. If this fidiot loses his job, as a result of his choices, I will lose no sleep over it.

 

 

seriously? why are you not hanging tiger wood by his jock strap for several years of addictive and anti-social behaviour. a sports star who by his own admission believed the rules were not meant for him.

 

i think this whole discussion of a person's (who you do not know) mental state, character flaws, antisocial behaviour to be alarming at best. we do not know the whole story, period.

 

do you really equate removing game pieces, whose very legitimacy is questioned, to be worthy of losing everything he has in the world.

 

this tells me more about you than it tells me about the person whose ALLEGED acts you are condemning. what kind of people are you? talk about antisocial behaviour. this is lynch-mob mentality.

 

makes me ashamed to be part of the this geocaching community. he didn't commit murder or sell drugs to minors. you place a game above common human decency. even if you say he didn't respect the game, you are doing so much more. all for the sake of a tupperware box full of trash?

 

it is appalling to say the least. and for each of you that are piling on, do you go to church on sunday? do you practice what is preached?

 

why has no one answered the question i asked about telling white lies? how about speeding? against the law. dangerous to yourself and others. but not one of you EVER speeds?

 

look in the mirror and tell me you see someone who never has made a mistake.

 

when you can do that, you can judge others. but not until then. and definitely not until all the facts known.

 

rsg

 

Ummm... no need to be flying off the handle here. I've speeded (sped?), I got caught, I paid the price. The policeman who caught me didn't care why I was speeding, though I'm sure I could have come up wth some sob story if I wanted. You break the law, you do something wrong, you pay the price. That's how it works. That's what this guy is facing now, and all the sob stories in the world shouldn't be a factor here.

 

And back to the old canard 'a tupperware box full of trash'? Sounds more like hundreds of ammo boxes, with swag, geocoins, travel bugs with tags - coins and bugs cost money, you know. So do ammo cans. Not exactly trash.

 

A lynch-mob would be storming the guy's house. Not waiting for the law to take it's course, which is what is happening. Sure, we're talking about it in the forums - well, guess what. We're allowed to. It's call free-speech. :rolleyes:

 

Have a nice day! :huh:

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...Have you ever had someone prey upon you?

This guy is a predator. No different than any other predator. He was seeking his own satisfaction at the discomfort of others.

 

yes, i have had someone prey on me. this is no where close. you simply can't back up your accusations. you are making assumptions.

 

this reminds me of the same conversation we had about placing booby-trapped caches. someone who seeks their own satisfaction at the discomfort of others. it was ok then, but not now. everybody plays the game their way. right?

 

>>Why did he do this instead of torturing kittens? My guess is he thought that he would never be prosecuted for it. And he might not be but at one time a person wouldn't be prosecuted for torturing kittens either.

 

He's scum. He's pretty close to a terrorist. And what's most important, now that he's been caught, he's identified himself as a coward.

 

When the day comes that I am convicted of being a cache maggot, or torturing kittens, or deliberately causing anyone discomfort for the sheer pleasure it provides me, toss the book at me. <<

 

you really equate what you call a cache maggot with a terrorist? holy sh*t. this mob mentality is much more frightening than anything this guy did. and how on earth did you get to the reasoning of torturing kittens? can you even hear what you are saying. get the stones out, get out the rope because that is what you are suggesting should happen to this person.

 

>>Perfect? No, but whatever I do in life that's imperfect is not because I want to cause someone else discomfort. I'm not perfect but I'm a better person than this cache maggot.<<

 

that is your perception. i think you are worse because you place a game over a human being you do not know anything about!

 

>>It's not about a "game piece". It's all about this guy being a colossal jerk (languaged toned down to remain within the guidelines).It's about this guy victimizing people. It's all about this guy breaking the law and feeling untouchable. He can't fool me with his whiney attempts for sympathy. He's no victim! He created victims (including children, I remind you).<<

 

oh, those poor victims out there. you poor poor dears. to call yourself "victims" demeans yourselves. you and your children are only victims if that is how you chose to see yourselves.

 

get over it, move on.

 

rsg

 

Hey, if you can't see the connection, I can't help you.

 

This guy was, in fact, terrorizing the geocaching community by stalking their caches and stealing them.

 

I'm sorry if you feel it's OK to go out and steal every cache you can. What's next? What other things do you feel it's OK to do to others for your own pleasure?

 

 

Its only a game piece....right? We are ONLY talking about A game piece..

:rolleyes:

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... It's about his victimizing the community for his own pleasure.

 

you keep saying this, but you do not KNOW this.

 

Yeah, it's a lynch mob mentality. I wish we had more lynch mobs. There would be MUCH less crime (one way or another)

 

...Again, you don't get the true nature of his misdeeds. He wasn't stealing tupperware, he was stealing enjoyment and replacing it with anguish.

 

you equate this with anguish. are you serious? if this is as much anguish you ever have in your life i envy you.

 

Speeding is victimless (for the most part).

 

ah, but not totally victimless is it. the possiblity of death and dismemberment is much greater with speeding than in removing a game piece.

 

Lies are a gray area. Would you want someones honest answer if it was unflattering?

 

absolutely. because every lie you tell reduces your integrity. your honour.

 

look in the mirror and tell me you see someone who never has made a mistake.

Mistakes are one thing. This guy made a hobby out of screwing people over. I'm sorry you can't see the difference.

 

again, you do not know this was his hobby. hyperbole for sure.

 

...I believe the facts are known enough for me, myself, to pass moral judgment on this creep. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him. I wouldn't let him babysit my kids. I wouldn't give him keys to my house. I wouldn't trust him to feed my dog.

 

you don't know jack.

 

True, I wouldn't trust most people that far but I was making a point.

 

your point is well understood. and you scare me. because if you are this quick to judge, what happens when you make a similar judgement and are wrong.

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Who said this was only about the game piece? (In this thread, the answer would be "a lot of people" :rolleyes: ). To the extent we are discussing the substance of the allegations against this person, they are non-trivial even if the case against him is trivial.

 

The "game piece" here (the stolen cache-in-hand) is just that -- a piece of a puzzle that is all about the relative consequences this person might have to face under the legal system for this incident. At the same time, a lot of the concerns about what should be done if the allegations are true is based on a broader sense of justice and fair play.

 

Should anyone be able to take it upon themselves to decide to steal "pieces" from another game that thousands of people are generally playing mostly in compliance with the law? Strip away the notions of technical legal defenses and just ponder whether that is fair. And if it isn't fair, what is the appropriate response to someone that has been doing this repeatedly for an extended period of time?

 

Saying a person should lose their security credentials and employment for taking a hide-a-key left in a park may sound absurd, but it is not a stretch to think that an employer might be concerned to find out a trusted employee has made a hobby out of stealing many items for years that were lawfully placed and actively tracked by the public that were playing a game. I'm not even sure it is exculpatory to claim that the items being stolen were trivial, since the cumulative value of them may be significant as some have noted, and the ongoing activity was intended to be disruptive to many.

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.. What other things do you feel it's OK to do to others for your own pleasure?

 

Its only a game piece....right? We are ONLY talking about A game piece..

:rolleyes:

 

hmmm, let me think. i know, i want to put a 90 decibel booby trap in a cache because that is just so much fun.

 

and yes, we are only talking about a game piece, because you can not back up any of your assumptions with facts.

 

you seem to feel it is ok to crucify someone for YOUR own pleasure. you do not seem to be able to see the similarity.

Edited by RedShoesGirl

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...made a hobby out of stealing many items for years that were lawfully placed...

 

until every cache placed is placed with permission of the billboard owner, the guardrail owner, the sign owner, the owner of a farm field, they are not being placed legally. out here, there are no markers that tell one which square of land is privately owned and which land is public.

 

this is not necessarily a legal hobby.

 

rsg

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Why are you not hanging tiger wood by his jock strap for several years of addictive and anti-social behaviour

WTH? :):rolleyes:

You are equating a celebrity sleeping around with a serial thief? Seriously? Someone who has victimized lots and lots of people? Who did Tiger victimize again? :huh: Not sure why you feel compelled to minimize this fidiot's criminal acts, but your desperation speaks volumes about your outlook on life in general. Intentionally stealing one person's cache could, in some left wing moonbat circles be called a "mistake". Doing so for years is not a "mistake". :P

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This thread seems to be devolving faster than you can say cache maggot.

 

People can make judgments about others when their behavior speaks for itself. The guy ran and hid when he was caught. Innocent people don't act that way.

 

But the bottom line is...he is now in the criminal justice system. I can rest assured the system will apply the appropriate punishment (if any) as it is adjudicated.

 

The rest is just discussion on a message board - interesting but hardly something to get our panties in a bunch over.

 

I do hope if this guy has some trackables that belong to others that he will do the right thing and release them. But only time will tell if he cares enough to do the right thing by them.

 

I'm not going to hold my breath.

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prey

predator

torturing kittens

get his jollies

scum.

pretty close to a terrorist

a coward

a maggot

torturing kittens

deliberately causing discomfort for the sheer pleasure

colossal jerk

victimizing

breaking the law

feeling untouchable

Nope... no hyperbole here.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing

 

:rolleyes:

Exactly. I think that what this guy (allegedly) did hurt a lot of cachers, but I also do not believe he has the low moral character that you attribute to him. I think that, at least originally, had what he considered to be honorable intentions. Yes, they surely conflicted with our own game, but I do believe he did it with values in mind, at least at one time. Yeah, it probably escalated out of control, and I'm sure not all of his muggles and thefts were done with honorable intentions, but to call him names like those is unconscionable to my way of thinking. This is lynch mob talk, and I want no part of it.

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I come down on the side that says: Sounds like a perfectly suitable solution to the problem, $500 to further the hobby, an apology, learn about the game and promise to not do it again. Same thing my Mom and Dad did when I was a lad, pay for the damage you caused, say you are sorry, reflect on what you did and promise to never do it again. Have a nice weekend all. I hope to do some caching on Sunday. A most enlightening and provocative thread , where civility prevailed. Kudos to all.

 

To a younger person, restitution is painful. To this guy, $500 to "make it go away" is an insult to whomever was involved. This guy isn't a kid. He's full growed up and likely been responsible for raising kids to follow in his moral footsteps.

I can only hope that he is punished. Based on his attempt to make it go away and his little whine about his situational discomfort, I assume a little suffering has begun. I think he needs to suffer a little more though. As for his financial offer, I think he should increase it 25 fold or so.

 

As I said before. I hope he gets everything he deserves.

 

I vote we all just chip in on airfare and let Bittsen fly over and take care of this guy. :rolleyes:

 

But then where is my plausible deniability?

 

You can all chip in and fly me to Hawaii where I will sign "Bittsen" to every cache I find.

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this reminds me of the same conversation we had about placing booby-trapped caches. someone who seeks their own satisfaction at the discomfort of others. it was ok then, but not now. everybody plays the game their way. right?

I find it bizarre that you equate a good natured, momentary startling to mental anguish, but having your possessions stolen over and over again for a period of years doesn't. Slightly inconsistent IMHO.

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RSG -- you seem to want to frame your discussions around the particular legal case against this one individual and criticize others who are assuming this person is guilty before the legal system renders a decision. As noted earlier, there are some outcomes in the legal system that never reach a judgment of innocence or guilt using different types of sentencing before judgment provisions. Does that have anything to do with whether the person is really innocent or guilty?

 

If you set aside those notions and just look at the allegations that one person stold hundreds of caches over a period of years, and assume that those facts are true, what do you think an appropriate outcome for that person should be if he or she were caught and convicted?

 

Is it relevant to you whether any of those stolen caches were not lawfully placed? We know from this thread that a number of them were lawfully placed, and that some were repeatedly stolen from private property where they were placed with permission.

 

Would you want to go through the entire list of caches this person removed and take into consideration how many of those caches were lawfully placed? Why is that relevant, if the person that was stealing them was not taking that issue into consideration (and I am asking you to assume for the case of this discussion that this is also true).

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What if his passion was slashing tires? It's ONLY tires.

Or breaking windows? It's ONLY windows.

Or cutting down saplings in the forest. They're ONLY saplings.

Or painting graffiti. It's ONLY a wall.

 

Yeah, it's easy to dismiss something if you add the word "ONLY" in front of it.

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... Several years of malicious, antisocial behavior should carry consequences. If this fidiot loses his job, as a result of his choices, I will lose no sleep over it.

 

 

seriously? why are you not hanging tiger wood by his jock strap for several years of addictive and anti-social behaviour.

 

 

because i'm not his wife and it's none of my business.

 

 

i think this whole discussion of a person's (who you do not know) mental state, character flaws, antisocial behaviour to be alarming at best. we do not know the whole story, period.

 

while i can't speculate as to motive, i can evaluate what evidence i have.

 

 

look in the mirror and tell me you see someone who never has made a mistake.

 

when you can do that, you can judge others. but not until then. and definitely not until all the facts known.

 

 

 

 

a mistake would have been taking a geocache and subsequently realizing what it was. when you repeat theft and vandalism (even small thefts) over a period of years, it leaves the realm of "mistake".

 

a person involved in an established pattern of years of theft and vandalism deserves what he's got coming to him. if he's embarrassed and inconvenienced by his own actions and their consequences under the law, hooray!

 

i don't feel sorry for him any more than i feel sorry for shoplifters who are caught.

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Exactly. I think that what this guy (allegedly) did hurt a lot of cachers, but I also do not believe he has the low moral character that you attribute to him. I think that, at least originally, had what he considered to be honorable intentions. Yes, they surely conflicted with our own game, but I do believe he did it with values in mind, at least at one time. Yeah, it probably escalated out of control, and I'm sure not all of his muggles and thefts were done with honorable intentions, but to call him names like those is unconscionable to my way of thinking. This is lynch mob talk, and I want no part of it.

So I guess you won't be chipping in on the "Send bittsen to New York" fund?

 

You can all chip in and fly me to Hawaii where I will sign "Bittsen" to every cache I find.

 

Just make sure to skip the (Maui) Hawaii caches I have already done. Wouldn't want to make a silly mistake like that.

Edited by bittsen

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