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GOF and Bacall

Cache maggot arrested.

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I think you hit the nail on the head there...the item in question was essentially abandoned. As such, I do not see that a crime was committed.

 

It certainly cannot be worth all the time and money expended on this waste of time.
What of yours may we steal, then? Can I come over tonight and take your lawn sprinkler? Apparently you wouldn't attempt to do anything about it.

Or, maybe I'll take your kid's bike. Its used... can't be worth all that much any more. Surely you wouldn't report that to the police... it would just be a waste of time and money.

 

Apples and oranges. You speak of items actively used and possessed, while this case centers on what's basically abandoned property.

Edited by Arthur & Trillian

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At least one company, WalMart, has a policy to not prosecute first-time shoplifters when the value of the stolen items is less than $25. because it isn't worth the time it takes.

 

 

Do you have a citation for that alleged policy? Because I happen to know for a fact that at least one person was arrested, and had to appear in court, for pocketing a $3 toy in a Wal Mart.

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I think you hit the nail on the head there...the item in question was essentially abandoned. As such, I do not see that a crime was committed.

 

It certainly cannot be worth all the time and money expended on this waste of time.
What of yours may we steal, then? Can I come over tonight and take your lawn sprinkler? Apparently you wouldn't attempt to do anything about it.

Or, maybe I'll take your kid's bike. Its used... can't be worth all that much any more. Surely you wouldn't report that to the police... it would just be a waste of time and money.

 

Apples and oranges. You speak of items actively used and possessed, while this case centers on what's basically abandoned property.

 

I don't know about you, but all of my geocaches are actively used and possessed. They are regularly found by other players in this game, and I periodically visit them for maintenance. They are mine. Even though they have been left un-attended, they are not abandoned.

 

At least one of the caches which Mr. Reepak is accused of stealing was located on the grounds of a museum, and was maintained by the museum staff. We aren't just talking about film cans in lamp poles, here.

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It certainly cannot be worth all the time and money expended on this waste of time.
What of yours may we steal, then? Can I come over tonight and take your lawn sprinkler? Apparently you wouldn't attempt to do anything about it.

Or, maybe I'll take your kid's bike. Its used... can't be worth all that much any more. Surely you wouldn't report that to the police... it would just be a waste of time and money.

 

If someone stole an altoids can I left outside, I probably wouldn't call the police. If someone broke into my garage and stole an altoids can, I would probably call the police.

 

We're talking about an item of extremely low value left outside. The value the owner places on it doesn't matter (legally speaking)

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I think you hit the nail on the head there...the item in question was essentially abandoned. As such, I do not see that a crime was committed.

 

It certainly cannot be worth all the time and money expended on this waste of time.
What of yours may we steal, then? Can I come over tonight and take your lawn sprinkler? Apparently you wouldn't attempt to do anything about it.

Or, maybe I'll take your kid's bike. Its used... can't be worth all that much any more. Surely you wouldn't report that to the police... it would just be a waste of time and money.

 

Apples and oranges. You speak of items actively used and possessed, while this case centers on what's basically abandoned property.

 

So basically anything that's not in your hands at the moment is abandoned?

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At least one company, WalMart, has a policy to not prosecute first-time shoplifters when the value of the stolen items is less than $25. because it isn't worth the time it takes.

 

 

Do you have a citation for that alleged policy? Because I happen to know for a fact that at least one person was arrested, and had to appear in court, for pocketing a $3 toy in a Wal Mart.

That was based on this CNN Money report:

 

Report: Wal-Mart loosens shoplifting policy

No. 1 retailer will only press charges if shoplifters take at least $25, in change to zero-tolerance policy.

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I think you hit the nail on the head there...the item in question was essentially abandoned. As such, I do not see that a crime was committed.

 

It certainly cannot be worth all the time and money expended on this waste of time.
What of yours may we steal, then? Can I come over tonight and take your lawn sprinkler? Apparently you wouldn't attempt to do anything about it.

Or, maybe I'll take your kid's bike. Its used... can't be worth all that much any more. Surely you wouldn't report that to the police... it would just be a waste of time and money.

 

Apples and oranges. You speak of items actively used and possessed, while this case centers on what's basically abandoned property.

 

So basically anything that's not in your hands at the moment is abandoned?

 

I don't know about you, but half the caches I find would look like trash if I didn't know what I was looking at.

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At least one of the caches which Mr. Reepak is accused of stealing was located on the grounds of a museum, and was maintained by the museum staff. We aren't just talking about film cans in lamp poles, here.

 

Here we go again... Are we going to discuss what Mr. Reepak was *actually* in possession of? Or should we just assume he's responsible for every stolen cache in the country? I had a travel bug stolen that was very near and dear to my heart here in Portland, OR. Maybe I should blame him for that as well?

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At least one of the caches which Mr. Reepak is accused of stealing was located on the grounds of a museum, and was maintained by the museum staff. We aren't just talking about film cans in lamp poles, here.

 

Here we go again... Are we going to discuss what Mr. Reepak was *actually* in possession of? Or should we just assume he's responsible for every stolen cache in the country? I had a travel bug stolen that was very near and dear to my heart here in Portland, OR. Maybe I should blame him for that as well?

"Accused of stealing" by us here in the forums and accused by the State (DA) are two different things and the difference is critical.

 

As far as I know Mr. Repak is accused by the state (the only folks that count here) of stealing one geocache, which if I recall was left unattended in a public place.

 

Again, 'owned and attended' as we geocachers consider it and 'abandoned' as the law may see it may well be at the heart of this case.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler

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I think you hit the nail on the head there...the item in question was essentially abandoned. As such, I do not see that a crime was committed.

 

It certainly cannot be worth all the time and money expended on this waste of time.
What of yours may we steal, then? Can I come over tonight and take your lawn sprinkler? Apparently you wouldn't attempt to do anything about it.

Or, maybe I'll take your kid's bike. Its used... can't be worth all that much any more. Surely you wouldn't report that to the police... it would just be a waste of time and money.

 

Apples and oranges. You speak of items actively used and possessed, while this case centers on what's basically abandoned property.

I disagree, the geocaches placed cannot be assumed to be abandonded. Although some may fit thecriterai, they are supposed to be maintained, and most are. Because of this, they cannot be considered abandoned.

 

Abandoned means "no intention of returning". I don't know the legal definition, but it is probably pretty close.

 

If you park a $400 bicycle and walk inside a mini-mart to get a soda, is it abandoned? What if someone steals it? Yes, it is stupid to not lock it to something, but perhaps you left to chain on the dining room table. When you need a drink, you need a drink. No sense in dieing of dehydration over it.

 

But... if it were your $400 bike, would you want the person prosecuted? If the DA said "it costs $1000 to prosecute and even more to keep then in jail" would you be OK with you if they walked away and stole someone else's bike?

 

The point here is that laws are intended to deter theft. If we do not prosecute repetitive $5 theft, then we might as well make it legal.

 

As far as Wal-mart, they make decisons for Wal-mart, not for society.

 

Walmart make Walmart decisions. Our Governemt should

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If you park a $400 bicycle and walk inside a mini-mart to get a soda, is it abandoned? What if someone steals it? Yes, it is stupid to not lock it to something, but perhaps you left to chain on the dining room table. When you need a drink, you need a drink. No sense in dieing of dehydration over it.

 

Ok.. What if you find the bike 50 feet off trail in the woods, lying under a bush ?

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If you park a $400 bicycle and walk inside a mini-mart to get a soda, is it abandoned? What if someone steals it? Yes, it is stupid to not lock it to something, but perhaps you left to chain on the dining room table. When you need a drink, you need a drink. No sense in dieing of dehydration over it.

 

Ok.. What if you find the bike 50 feet off trail in the woods, lying under a bush ?

If it is not yours, do not take it. Simple.

 

Alert the police, let them deal with it.

 

If they can find the owner, great, if not you can get it from their abandoned property after a period of time.

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If you park a $400 bicycle and walk inside a mini-mart to get a soda, is it abandoned? What if someone steals it? Yes, it is stupid to not lock it to something, but perhaps you left to chain on the dining room table. When you need a drink, you need a drink. No sense in dieing of dehydration over it.

 

Ok.. What if you find the bike 50 feet off trail in the woods, lying under a bush ?

If it is not yours, do not take it. Simple.

 

Alert the police, let them deal with it.

 

If they can find the owner, great, if not you can get it from their abandoned property after a period of time.

 

I'm just pointing out the difference. I think the difference is significant in whether the item is perceived as abandoned or not

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I think you hit the nail on the head there...the item in question was essentially abandoned. As such, I do not see that a crime was committed.

 

It certainly cannot be worth all the time and money expended on this waste of time.
What of yours may we steal, then? Can I come over tonight and take your lawn sprinkler? Apparently you wouldn't attempt to do anything about it.

Or, maybe I'll take your kid's bike. Its used... can't be worth all that much any more. Surely you wouldn't report that to the police... it would just be a waste of time and money.

 

Apples and oranges. You speak of items actively used and possessed, while this case centers on what's basically abandoned property.

 

So basically anything that's not in your hands at the moment is abandoned?

 

I don't know about you, but half the caches I find would look like trash if I didn't know what I was looking at.

Does the guy that was out stealing caches claim he thought they were abandoned?

 

Yes there are crappy caches out there, but when you make a point of finding and taking them that is stealing.

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It certainly cannot be worth all the time and money expended on this waste of time.
What of yours may we steal, then? Can I come over tonight and take your lawn sprinkler? Apparently you wouldn't attempt to do anything about it.

Or, maybe I'll take your kid's bike. Its used... can't be worth all that much any more. Surely you wouldn't report that to the police... it would just be a waste of time and money.

 

Clearly, you can take his caches because they are just abandoned property in his eyes.

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It certainly cannot be worth all the time and money expended on this waste of time.
What of yours may we steal, then? Can I come over tonight and take your lawn sprinkler? Apparently you wouldn't attempt to do anything about it.

Or, maybe I'll take your kid's bike. Its used... can't be worth all that much any more. Surely you wouldn't report that to the police... it would just be a waste of time and money.

 

Clearly, you can take his caches because they are just abandoned property in his eyes.

 

Why is it when people complain about travel bugs and coins getting stolen, they are told, "You must have an expectation that when you release a coin or TB into the wild, that it will probably not come back"... Well, when you place an item in a hidden location out in the world, I would say you probably aren't going to get it back. In fact, just making up numbers, I would say the vast majority of caches that are placed are never retrieved by the owner. They are either muggled eventually or forgotten about... That's about as close to abandoned property as you can get.

 

When you place a cache, when exactly do you plan on returning to get it? You don't plan on returning to get it, do you? (and if you do, you are probably in the minority)

Edited by ReadyOrNot

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We can yak about what is or is not abandoned until we are blue in the face... the only thing that will matter is adjudicated case law.

 

So far as I know none has been decided in re geocaches.

 

Repak's attorney may do well by stating that it was not theft but in fact the recovery of abandoned property.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler

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Clearly, you can take his caches because they are just abandoned property in his eyes.

 

Why is it when people complain about travel bugs and coins getting stolen, they are told, "You must have an expectation that when you release a coin or TB into the wild, that it will probably not come back"... Well, when you place an item in a hidden location out in the world, I would say you probably aren't going to get it back. In fact, just making up numbers, I would say the vast majority of caches that are placed are never retrieved by the owner. They are either muggled eventually or forgotten about... That's about as close to abandoned property as you can get.

 

When you place a cache, when exactly do you plan on returning to get it? You don't plan on returning to get it, do you? (and if you do, you are probably in the minority)

 

Because trackables are exposed to fair more potential for peril as they are picked up and moved and pass through the hands of many (hopefully) people and are placed in many (with luck) caches. Caches are supposed to stay in one location, be found, opened, closed then left behind. The dangers of being stolen in somebody's car, lost in transit, mis-logged, lost at an event simply don't exist for a cache.

 

Of the caches I have placed that are archived, I have retrieved every single one that was still there when I went to check on it.

 

So, just for the record, you're confirming that your caches are abandoned property, yes?

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Maybe his lawyer is following these threads and picking up ideas for his defense. :D

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Clearly, you can take his caches because they are just abandoned property in his eyes.

 

Why is it when people complain about travel bugs and coins getting stolen, they are told, "You must have an expectation that when you release a coin or TB into the wild, that it will probably not come back"... Well, when you place an item in a hidden location out in the world, I would say you probably aren't going to get it back. In fact, just making up numbers, I would say the vast majority of caches that are placed are never retrieved by the owner. They are either muggled eventually or forgotten about... That's about as close to abandoned property as you can get.

 

When you place a cache, when exactly do you plan on returning to get it? You don't plan on returning to get it, do you? (and if you do, you are probably in the minority)

 

Because trackables are exposed to fair more potential for peril as they are picked up and moved and pass through the hands of many (hopefully) people and are placed in many (with luck) caches. Caches are supposed to stay in one location, be found, opened, closed then left behind. The dangers of being stolen in somebody's car, lost in transit, mis-logged, lost at an event simply don't exist for a cache.

 

Of the caches I have placed that are archived, I have retrieved every single one that was still there when I went to check on it.

 

So, just for the record, you're confirming that your caches are abandoned property, yes?

 

Yes, my caches are abandoned. When I put them out there, I don't have any plans of retrieving them any time soon. When they go missing, I don't call the police. If you want to go take them, I won't be happy about it, but i'm also not going to waste the time of the police on something so petty and stupid, when they could be out there dealing with real issues that affect more than just a game.

Edited by ReadyOrNot

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So, just for the record, you're confirming that your caches are abandoned property, yes?

No, he's making the point that under the law we do not know how geocaches will be interpreted... as trash, abandoned or owned personal property. As geocachers our personal opinion does not matter.

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If you park a $400 bicycle and walk inside a mini-mart to get a soda, is it abandoned? What if someone steals it? Yes, it is stupid to not lock it to something, but perhaps you left to chain on the dining room table. When you need a drink, you need a drink. No sense in dieing of dehydration over it.

 

Ok.. What if you find the bike 50 feet off trail in the woods, lying under a bush ?

If it is not yours, do not take it. Simple.

 

Alert the police, let them deal with it.

 

If they can find the owner, great, if not you can get it from their abandoned property after a period of time.

 

alert the police to the trash which has been left.... obviously picking up trash which does not belong to you is NOT acceptable behavior.

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So, just for the record, you're confirming that your caches are abandoned property, yes?

 

Yes, my caches are abandoned. When I put them out there, I don't have any plans of retrieving them any time soon. When they go missing, I don't call the police. If you want to go take them, I won't be happy about it, but i'm also not going to waste the time of the police on something so petty and stupid, when they could be out there dealing with real issues that affect more than just a game.

 

Okay. Now we're getting somewhere. I'm with you so far. Same thing has happened to me and I've reacted the same way. It stinks, but we get over it.

 

Now imagine a situation in which every cache you put out gets picked up every time you replace it. And it happens to all the other cachers in your area. Over and over again. And then they find they guy who looks to be responsible for it.

 

Is this still a waste of the tax-payer's money to give him due process?

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So, just for the record, you're confirming that your caches are abandoned property, yes?

No, he's making the point that under the law we do not know how geocaches will be interpreted... as trash, abandoned or owned personal property. As geocachers our personal opinion does not matter.

 

I don't see him as speaking for the law. From where I'm reading, he is speaking from personal opinion.

 

Until the judge rules, we're all speaking from opinion.

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So, just for the record, you're confirming that your caches are abandoned property, yes?

 

Yes, my caches are abandoned. When I put them out there, I don't have any plans of retrieving them any time soon. When they go missing, I don't call the police. If you want to go take them, I won't be happy about it, but i'm also not going to waste the time of the police on something so petty and stupid, when they could be out there dealing with real issues that affect more than just a game.

 

Okay. Now we're getting somewhere. I'm with you so far. Same thing has happened to me and I've reacted the same way. It stinks, but we get over it.

 

Now imagine a situation in which every cache you put out gets picked up every time you replace it. And it happens to all the other cachers in your area. Over and over again. And then they find they guy who looks to be responsible for it.

 

Is this still a waste of the tax-payer's money to give him due process?

 

How many counts of theft is Mr. Reepak being charged with?

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Okay. Now we're getting somewhere. I'm with you so far. Same thing has happened to me and I've reacted the same way. It stinks, but we get over it.

 

Now imagine a situation in which every cache you put out gets picked up every time you replace it. And it happens to all the other cachers in your area. Over and over again. And then they find they guy who looks to be responsible for it.

 

Is this still a waste of the tax-payer's money to give him due process?

 

How many counts of theft is Mr. Reepak being charged with?

 

How many would it take to meet your personal criteria for "not a waste of money"? That's the real question.

 

Look, I get that we're at an impasse here. Let's just sit back and see how this pans out?

Edited by Castle Mischief

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It seems obvious on the face of it that we geocachers hide caches which belong to us for the enjoyment of the geocaching community, and that those caches remain our personal possessions.

 

The law, however, doesn't necessarily always support that.

 

Consider this excerpted definition of personal property from legal-dictionary:

 

personal property

(redirected from Lost, mislaid, and abandoned property)

 

Everything that is the subject of ownership that does not come under the denomination of real property; any right or interest that an individual has in movable things.

 

Personal property can be divided into two major categories: (1) corporeal personal property, including such items as animals, merchandise, and jewelry; and (2) incorporeal personal property, comprised of such rights as stocks, bonds, Patents, and copyrights.

Possession

 

Possession is a property interest under which an individual is able to exercise power over something to the exclusion of all others. It is a basic property right that entitles the possessor to (1) the right to continue peaceful possession against everyone except someone having a superior right; (2) the right to recover a chattel that has been wrongfully taken; and (3) the right to recover damages against wrongdoers.

 

Possession requires a degree of actual control over the object, coupled with the intent to possess and exclude others. The law recognizes two basic types of possession: actual and constructive.

 

Actual possession exists when an individual knowingly has direct physical control over an object at a given time. For example, an individual wearing a particular piece of valuable jewelry has actual possession of it. Constructive possession is the power and intent of an individual to control a particular item, even though it is not physically in that person's control. For example, an individual who has the key to a bank safe deposit box, which contains a valuable piece of jewelry that she owns, is said to be in constructive possession of the jewelry.

 

Possession of Animals

Animals ferae naturae, or wild animals, are those that cannot be completely domesticated. A degree of force or skill is necessary to maintain control over them. Gaining possession is a means of obtaining title to, or ownership of, wild animals.

 

Generally an owner of land has the right to capture or kill a wild animal on her property and upon doing so, the animal is regarded as belonging to that individual because she owns the soil. The traditional legal principle has been that one who tames a wild animal is regarded as its owner provided it appears to exhibit animus revertendi, or the intent to return to the owner's domicile. Conversely when a captured wild animal escapes and returns to its natural habitat without any apparent intent to return to the captor's domicile, the captor forfeits all personal property right and the animal may be captured by anyone.

 

Lost, Mislaid, and Abandoned Property

Personal property is considered to be lost if the owner has involuntarily parted with it and is ignorant of its location. Mislaid property is that which an owner intentionally places somewhere with the idea that he will eventually be able to find it again but subsequently forgets where it has been placed. Abandoned property is that to which the owner has intentionally relinquished all rights.

 

Lost or mislaid property continues to be owned by the person who lost or mislaid it. When one finds lost goods, the finder is entitled to possession against everyone with the exception of the true owner.

 

The finder of lost articles on land belonging to someone else is entitled to possession against everyone but the true owner, unless the finder is guilty of Trespass. The finder of misplaced goods has no right to their possession. The owner of the place where an article is mislaid has a right to the article against everyone but the true owner. Abandoned property can be possessed and owned by the first person who exercises dominion over it with an intent to claim it as his or her own. In any event, between the finder of a lost, mislaid, or abandoned article and the owner of the place where it is found, the law applies to whatever rule will most likely result in the return of the article to its rightful owner.

 

Ordinarily when articles are found by an employee during and within the scope of his employment, they are awarded to the employer rather than to the employee-finder.

 

Treasure trove is any gold or silver in coin, plate, or bullion that is hidden by an unknown owner in the earth or other private place for an extended period. The property is not considered treasure trove unless the identity of the owner cannot be ascertained. Under early Common Law, the finder of a treasure trove took title to it against everyone but the true owner. This doctrine was altered in England by a statute granting title to the crown subject to the claims of the true owner. The U.S. law governing treasure trove has, for the most part, been merged into the law governing lost property. However, certain cases have held that the old treasure trove law has not been combined into the lost property statutes. In some instances, the early common law of England has been held to apply in the absence of a statute governing treasure trove. Regardless of which principles are applied, however, in the absence of contrary statutory provision, the title to treasure trove belongs to the finder against all others with the exception of the true owner. If there is a controversy as to ownership between the true owner and the state, the owner is entitled to treasure trove.

 

Confusion and Accession

Confusion and Accession govern the acquisition of, or loss of title to, personal property by virtue of its being blended with, altered by, improved by, or commingled with the property of others. In confusion, the personal property of several different owners is commingled so that it cannot be separated and returned to its rightful owners, but the property retains its original characteristics. Any fungible (interchangeable) goods can be the subject of confusion.

 

In accession, the personal property of one owner is physically integrated with the property of another so that it becomes a constituent part of it, losing any separate identity. Accession can make the personal property of one owner become a substantially more valuable chattel as a result of the work of another person. This transformation occurs when the personal property becomes an entirely new chattel, such as when grapes are made into wine or timber is made into furniture.

 

Subject to the doctrine of accession, personal property can become real property through its transformation into a fixture. A fixture is a movable item that was originally personalty (personal property) but which has become attached to, and associated with, the land and is, therefore, considered a part of the real property.

 

Bailments

A Bailment is the rightful, temporary possession of goods by an individual other than the true owner. The individual who entrusts his property into the hands of another is called the bailor; the person who holds such property is the bailee. Ordinarily a bailment is effected for a designated purpose upon which the parties have agreed.

 

The word bailment is derived from the French term bailler, "to deliver." It is ordinarily regarded as a contractual relationship since the bailor and bailee—either expressly or implicitly—bind themselves to act according to specific terms. The bailee receives only control or possession of the property, and the bailor retains the ownership interests therein. While a bailment exists, the bailee has an interest in the property that is superior to all others, including the bailor, unless she violates some term of the agreement. When the purpose for which the property has been delivered has been accomplished, the property will be returned to the bailor or otherwise disposed of, according to his instructions.

 

A bailment differs from a sale, which is an intentional transfer of ownership of personal property in exchange for something of value, because a bailment involves only a transfer of possession or custody not of ownership. For example, a bailment is created when a person leaves his or her car and car keys at a parking garage. The parking garage receives a fee to hold the car in its custody.

 

Gifts

A gift is a voluntary transfer of personalty from one individual to another without compensation or consideration or the exchange of something of value. There are two main categories of gifts: inter vivos gifts, a voluntary, unconditional transfer of property between two living persons without consideration, and causa mortis, one that is made by a donor in anticipation of imminent death. The three requirements of a valid gift are delivery, donative intent, and acceptance.

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Okay. Now we're getting somewhere. I'm with you so far. Same thing has happened to me and I've reacted the same way. It stinks, but we get over it.

 

Now imagine a situation in which every cache you put out gets picked up every time you replace it. And it happens to all the other cachers in your area. Over and over again. And then they find they guy who looks to be responsible for it.

 

Is this still a waste of the tax-payer's money to give him due process?

 

How many counts of theft is Mr. Reepak being charged with?

 

How many would it take to meet your personal criteria for "not a waste of money"? That's the real question.

 

Look, I get that we're at an impasse here. Let's just sit back and see how this pans out?

 

That was not a retorical question. How many counts is he charged with? All this talk about the caches you think he stole has nothing to do with the facts of the case. If he is charged with only 1 count of theft (or maybe 2), your argument is bunk.

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<snip>

 

"Sorry Mr Smith, I'm not going to arrest this poor unfortunate thief because your Picasso only used 6 dollars in supplies to create and was too crappy to waste taxpayer money on a prosecution."

Almost makes sense until you realize the subjectivity of value.

 

Isn't it more like...

 

"Sorry Mr Smith, I have no officers available to come to your assistance [whilst your home is being invaded/car is being stolen/you're being assaulted] because our last available officer was dispatched to arrest someone for stealing a piece of tupperware."

 

:D:P

NOPE! That one doesn't even remotely work.

 

My father had a LEO drop everything he was doing when my father was reporting a mugging, to respond to an in progress.

 

I would rather see a thief arrested than a LEO wasting time writing a ticket for someone who had an air freshener hanging from their rear view mirror.

 

If in this case the LOEs responded to an unlawful entry in progress and the maggot got away, a rational person would understand.

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Of the caches I have placed that are archived, I have retrieved every single one that was still there when I went to check on it.

At the time that you placed them, did you plan on going back to get them?

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If you park a $400 bicycle and walk inside a mini-mart to get a soda, is it abandoned? What if someone steals it? Yes, it is stupid to not lock it to something, but perhaps you left to chain on the dining room table. When you need a drink, you need a drink. No sense in dieing of dehydration over it.

 

Ok.. What if you find the bike 50 feet off trail in the woods, lying under a bush ?

If it is not yours, do not take it. Simple.

 

Alert the police, let them deal with it.

 

If they can find the owner, great, if not you can get it from their abandoned property after a period of time.

 

I'm just pointing out the difference. I think the difference is significant in whether the item is perceived as abandoned or not

 

Since you have previously advocated stealing crappy caches you did not like (such as micros) and have gone as far as starting threads about it, perhaps the difference is whether you have abandoned your previous statements, or are trying to justify the similarities about your percieved behaviour. :D

Edited by 4wheelin_fool

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If you park a $400 bicycle and walk inside a mini-mart to get a soda, is it abandoned? What if someone steals it? Yes, it is stupid to not lock it to something, but perhaps you left to chain on the dining room table. When you need a drink, you need a drink. No sense in dieing of dehydration over it.

 

Ok.. What if you find the bike 50 feet off trail in the woods, lying under a bush ?

If it is not yours, do not take it. Simple.

 

Alert the police, let them deal with it.

 

If they can find the owner, great, if not you can get it from their abandoned property after a period of time.

 

I'm just pointing out the difference. I think the difference is significant in whether the item is perceived as abandoned or not

 

Since you have previously advocated stealing crappy caches you did not like (such as micros) as have gone as far as starting threads about it, perhaps the difference is whether you have abandoned your previous statements, or are trying to justify the similarities about your percieved behaviour. :D

 

I've never advocated stealing anything. I believe the statement you are referring to is when I suggested throwing garbage in the trash where it belongs. I think that's another possible defense, that he was cleaning up abandoned trash. (there's enough of it around)

Edited by ReadyOrNot

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If you park a $400 bicycle and walk inside a mini-mart to get a soda, is it abandoned? What if someone steals it? Yes, it is stupid to not lock it to something, but perhaps you left to chain on the dining room table. When you need a drink, you need a drink. No sense in dieing of dehydration over it.

 

Ok.. What if you find the bike 50 feet off trail in the woods, lying under a bush ?

If it is not yours, do not take it. Simple.

 

Alert the police, let them deal with it.

 

If they can find the owner, great, if not you can get it from their abandoned property after a period of time.

 

I'm just pointing out the difference. I think the difference is significant in whether the item is perceived as abandoned or not

 

Since you have previously advocated stealing crappy caches you did not like (such as micros) as have gone as far as starting threads about it, perhaps the difference is whether you have abandoned your previous statements, or are trying to justify the similarities about your percieved behaviour. :D

 

I've never advocated stealing anything. I believe the statement you are referring to is when I suggested throwing garbage in the trash where it belongs. I think that's another possible defense, that he was cleaning up abandoned trash. (there's enough of it around)

 

So it's about relabeling it to justify your behaviour.

 

You described it as garbage based on size and location, rather than condition.

 

A micro in a nasty area would be tossed, even if it was in good shape and the owner was maintaining it.

 

If I'm incorrect, you are more than welcome to link to the threads.:P

 

There is plenty of garbage around to pick up which is plainly visible. Going to a website and using your GPS to specifically find an object, and then declare it is trash because the owner is not in the area and you don't like the spot is very different..

Edited by 4wheelin_fool

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I don't believe the story.

 

I googled this guys name. He apparently is very active in EMS and rescue, and runs a LEAVE NO TRACE program in the area. I also could find no court date or criminal record on this person of any sort.

 

I have also taken liberty to email this person this entire thread, and rather if he comments or not, I don't know.

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Of the caches I have placed that are archived, I have retrieved every single one that was still there when I went to check on it.

At the time that you placed them, did you plan on going back to get them?

 

I planned on going back and getting them pending any situation that would require me to do so. I also planned on revisiting them for maintenance and replacing them completely if need be.

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That was not a retorical question. How many counts is he charged with? All this talk about the caches you think he stole has nothing to do with the facts of the case. If he is charged with only 1 count of theft (or maybe 2), your argument is bunk.

 

Hello, impasse?

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I don't believe the story.

 

I googled this guys name. He apparently is very active in EMS and rescue, and runs a LEAVE NO TRACE program in the area. I also could find no court date or criminal record on this person of any sort.

 

I have also taken liberty to email this person this entire thread, and rather if he comments or not, I don't know.

 

I know it's been several pages, but:

 

RomeSentinel.com Reported on a cache thief that was arrested Tuesday afternoon.

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Clearly, you can take his caches because they are just abandoned property in his eyes.

 

Why is it when people complain about travel bugs and coins getting stolen, they are told, "You must have an expectation that when you release a coin or TB into the wild, that it will probably not come back"... Well, when you place an item in a hidden location out in the world, I would say you probably aren't going to get it back. In fact, just making up numbers, I would say the vast majority of caches that are placed are never retrieved by the owner. They are either muggled eventually or forgotten about... That's about as close to abandoned property as you can get.

 

When you place a cache, when exactly do you plan on returning to get it? You don't plan on returning to get it, do you? (and if you do, you are probably in the minority)

 

Because trackables are exposed to fair more potential for peril as they are picked up and moved and pass through the hands of many (hopefully) people and are placed in many (with luck) caches. Caches are supposed to stay in one location, be found, opened, closed then left behind. The dangers of being stolen in somebody's car, lost in transit, mis-logged, lost at an event simply don't exist for a cache.

 

Of the caches I have placed that are archived, I have retrieved every single one that was still there when I went to check on it.

 

So, just for the record, you're confirming that your caches are abandoned property, yes?

 

Yes, my caches are abandoned. When I put them out there, I don't have any plans of retrieving them any time soon. When they go missing, I don't call the police. If you want to go take them, I won't be happy about it, but i'm also not going to waste the time of the police on something so petty and stupid, when they could be out there dealing with real issues that affect more than just a game.

I pay $8 for an ammo can. Lets forget about the cost of swag because, frankly, it probably won't have much in it after a month. OK... $8 isn't much. If someone stole ten ammo boxes a year,. would that be enough for you to consider it worth doing something about? Remember, these folks say that they have had caches stolen over a 10 year period.

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It certainly cannot be worth all the time and money expended on this waste of time.

Awesome! So, we've established that, for you, there is a particular dollar amount which is OK for us to steal.

What would that dollar amount be? $5? $10? $20? $100? How much of your stuff can I take? :)

 

You speak of items actively used and possessed, while this case centers on what's basically abandoned property.

Ah... The oh so ridiculous "abandoned property" defense. I see. That explains a lot.

I can only speak for myself here, but I can say that none of my caches are abandoned.

A gamepiece, left for a specific function, at a specific location, cannot be considered abandoned.

My game pieces get visited on a regular basis, by folks hunting for them. Definitely not abandoned.

I can see where a muggle might use such a defense, as, having no knowledge of the game, they might think they were abandoned.

But Mr Repak doesn't have the luxury of ignorance.

 

Judging by your response, one can only assume that your caches are abandoned? Is that right?

I realise you checked the little box agreeing to comply with the guidelines, including the maintenance guidelines.

Yet, still, all your caches are abandoned? Shouldn't they be archived?

Since they are abandoned, you'd have no qualms with me cleaning up your litter, right?

I'll be up in St Charles in a few months. Which ones can I take?

I'm looking fondly at "Old Railroad Bridge", "Fulton Overlook Cache" and "Twin Falls". I need more Lock & Locks.

 

If someone stole an altoids can I left outside, I probably wouldn't call the police. The value the owner places on it doesn't matter (legally speaking)

Kewl! So, stuff left outside is the key. Gotcha. A used kids bike runs about $20 at Goodwill. You'd be OK if I stole a used kids bike from someones yard? What if it was your kid's bike? What if the value of your kid's used bike was only $15? Can I take it? $10? What's the monetary cutoff? I know you are OK with the concept of one person willfully and maliciously taking the property of another, so long as the value is low, yet you haven't told us where the line should be drawn.

 

If it is not yours, do not take it. Simple.

Why is that concept so difficult to grasp by some folks? :D

 

When you place a cache, when exactly do you plan on returning to get it?

When I archive it.

Doesn't everybody?

At least everybody I know... :unsure:

 

I guess you must be part of the so called "majority", who has no intention of picking up your caches after they have served their purpose? If that is so, were you lying when you stated that you would perform all necessary maintenance? Hopefully, TPTB will read this and realise that you lied at least 42 times when hiding your physical caches, and prohibit you from hiding any more.

 

So, just for the record, you're confirming that your caches are abandoned property, yes?

No, he's making the point that under the law we do not know how geocaches will be interpreted.

Actually, in the post immediately above yours, he explicitly stated that all of his caches have been abandoned.

dadgum the guidelines, full speed ahead! :lol::P

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I don't believe the story.

 

I googled this guys name. He apparently is very active in EMS and rescue, and runs a LEAVE NO TRACE program in the area. I also could find no court date or criminal record on this person of any sort.

 

I have also taken liberty to email this person this entire thread, and rather if he comments or not, I don't know.

So what your saying is you have taken the liberty of harassing him.

Just because you can find it don't mean it aint there. Come on you're a cacher, you know that. Right? Or are you the type to post a NM or SBA log every time you DNF?

I know a little something about searching public records online. How much did you pay to dispute this?

If you didn't have to pay for a public records search on line then link please, I could use it.

I also did a search at the New York State Unified Court System and found nothing. Wanna know what I did find? I found out that just because a case is not in that system doesn't mean that it doesn't or wont exist.

Here is the link to the Rome Sentinel article http://romesentinel.com/news?newsid=20100217-141107

I found it a whole wopping 5 links down googling his name + thief.

#1 www.topix.com

#2 geocachingcny.com

#3 forums.Groundspeak.com

#4 www.bluelinegeocachers.org

#5 romesentinel.com

The community buzz about the case is slowly knocking the RS link down the page.

 

I'll point out to you that there are people involved directly who have posted in this thread and that you have conveniently ignored.

Sure this could be a massive hoax, but then I would have to say that Mr Repak is in on it or he has one hell of a law suit. Cant remember the difference between libel and defamation of character but I'm betting that both would apply if he was not arrested.

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Clearly, you can take his caches because they are just abandoned property in his eyes.

 

Why is it when people complain about travel bugs and coins getting stolen, they are told, "You must have an expectation that when you release a coin or TB into the wild, that it will probably not come back"... Well, when you place an item in a hidden location out in the world, I would say you probably aren't going to get it back. In fact, just making up numbers, I would say the vast majority of caches that are placed are never retrieved by the owner. They are either muggled eventually or forgotten about... That's about as close to abandoned property as you can get.

 

When you place a cache, when exactly do you plan on returning to get it? You don't plan on returning to get it, do you? (and if you do, you are probably in the minority)

 

Because trackables are exposed to fair more potential for peril as they are picked up and moved and pass through the hands of many (hopefully) people and are placed in many (with luck) caches. Caches are supposed to stay in one location, be found, opened, closed then left behind. The dangers of being stolen in somebody's car, lost in transit, mis-logged, lost at an event simply don't exist for a cache.

 

Of the caches I have placed that are archived, I have retrieved every single one that was still there when I went to check on it.

 

So, just for the record, you're confirming that your caches are abandoned property, yes?

 

Yes, my caches are abandoned. When I put them out there, I don't have any plans of retrieving them any time soon. When they go missing, I don't call the police. If you want to go take them, I won't be happy about it, but i'm also not going to waste the time of the police on something so petty and stupid, when they could be out there dealing with real issues that affect more than just a game.

I pay $8 for an ammo can. Lets forget about the cost of swag because, frankly, it probably won't have much in it after a month. OK... $8 isn't much. If someone stole ten ammo boxes a year,. would that be enough for you to consider it worth doing something about? Remember, these folks say that they have had caches stolen over a 10 year period.

 

Again... 1 count of theft ... And I believe it was a hide-a-key container that Kayleo had mentioned, which was attached to a guardrail. Those are the facts. You can get a hide-a-key container for around $4. You can't really fit all that much inside the container, so I wouldn't think the internal contents of the container would raise the total value.

 

A $4 hide-a-key container... If there were more charges, that might change the situation, but until then, enjoy your speculation.

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Blah blah blah

 

I don't think theft is ok, as much as you enjoyed saying over and over till blue in the face. I just think it's a big waste of time. If they aren't going to charge him with 50 counts of theft, then drop the case and quit wasting everyone's time. If you can prove the guy stole more than the 1 cache, then show the evidence. If you don't have the evidence, then quit making baseless accusations... I keep hearing about how there's photographic evidence of Mr. Repak, but I haven't seen it, have you? And apparently it wasn't compelling enough to warrant additional charges...

 

But, we're not interested in facts here, are we?

Edited by ReadyOrNot

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I don't think theft is ok...

Yet you seem to be unwilling to take any steps to prohibit theft. Right? No calls to authority. No reporting of the crime. No law enforcement response. No investigation. No arrest. No prosecution. Sounds a lot like consent to me. Perhaps you think theft should be decriminalized? Perhaps at a certain dollar amount? You artfully dodged the ammo can question, while citing that you were OK with the theft of a $4 hide-a-key. Is that the point where theft becomes OK to you? $4?

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I don't believe the story.

I don't believe that you don't believe the story.

 

I googled this guys name. He apparently is very active in EMS and rescue, and runs a LEAVE NO TRACE program in the area.

So if he's a nice guy and active in his community he can't possibly be a criminal? Really? You believe that?

 

I also could find no court date or criminal record on this person of any sort.

Ask Kayleo who took her deposition and in which court it was presented. I think the courtroom, date and time were mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

If you read the thread,which you obviously haven't, you will find all of the facts even though they are buried in the muck.

 

I have also taken liberty to email this person this entire thread, and rather if he comments or not, I don't know.

Trust me, he's well aware of this thread. And yes, he has apologized for his behavior. Read the thread before stirring the pot.

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I don't think theft is ok...

Yet you seem to be unwilling to take any steps to prohibit theft. Right? No calls to authority. No reporting of the crime. No law enforcement response. No investigation. No arrest. No prosecution. Sounds a lot like consent to me. Perhaps you think theft should be decriminalized? Perhaps at a certain dollar amount? You artfully dodged the ammo can question, while citing that you were OK with the theft of a $4 hide-a-key. Is that the point where theft becomes OK to you? $4?

 

Theft is never ok, regardless of the dollar amount. The issue in my mind is that the ends do not justify the means in this case. If all they are going to charge him with is the theft of a $4 magnet, then what's the point? If I stole a bag of candy from Walmart, I honestly don't think the time and effort would be worth it to prosecute the case. That doesn't mean stealing candy is right, just that the ends don't justify the means. Walmart seems to have set that threshhold at $20. That doesn't mean Walmart thinks stealing is ok as long as it's under $20, just that they will not prosecute anything under $20. Do you see the difference?

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At least one company, WalMart, has a policy to not prosecute first-time shoplifters when the value of the stolen items is less than $25. because it isn't worth the time it takes.

 

 

Do you have a citation for that alleged policy? Because I happen to know for a fact that at least one person was arrested, and had to appear in court, for pocketing a $3 toy in a Wal Mart.

 

Unless things have changed in the last few years it depended on the store manager, one store I worked in was very aggressive towards shoplifters sometimes having as many as 3 LPOs on the floor at the same time,

another store the manager had only one LPO go figure

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I don't think theft is ok...

Yet you seem to be unwilling to take any steps to prohibit theft. Right? No calls to authority. No reporting of the crime. No law enforcement response. No investigation. No arrest. No prosecution. Sounds a lot like consent to me. Perhaps you think theft should be decriminalized? Perhaps at a certain dollar amount? You artfully dodged the ammo can question, while citing that you were OK with the theft of a $4 hide-a-key. Is that the point where theft becomes OK to you? $4?

 

Theft is never ok, regardless of the dollar amount. The issue in my mind is that the ends do not justify the means in this case. If all they are going to charge him with is the theft of a $4 magnet, then what's the point? If I stole a bag of candy from Walmart, I honestly don't think the time and effort would be worth it to prosecute the case. That doesn't mean stealing candy is right, just that the ends don't justify the means. Walmart seems to have set that threshhold at $20. That doesn't mean Walmart thinks stealing is ok as long as it's under $20, just that they will not prosecute anything under $20. Do you see the difference?

Theft is theft and should be prosecuted. Otherwise, you are giving permission to steal.

 

When Walmart does it, they do it for themselves. Some 12 yr old kid taking a candy bar and getting a sever butt chewing and pulling weeds for a month or two is sufficient punishment. We can play "what if" with Walmart all day. The bottom line is that they are a corporation.

 

We are talking about police involvement and someone willfully and knowingly taking possession of an object that a person left at a location with the intention of returning. If you think they do not plan on returning, then you need to prove it and not pronounce it as if it were true.

 

Walmart decides how to spend Walmart's money. My taxpayer dollars pay the police and the DA and I should have a right for them to protect my possessions, regardless of value. Walmart is not decideing how to spend my taxpayer dollars.

 

If the Paul L. Repak is caught red handed with stolen property, then it needs to be dealt with accordingly. If he shows no remorse, then prosecute to the maximum extent. He needs to understand that what he did was wrong. If he doesn't understand it, then he needs to understand that if he takes something that belongs to someone else, then it will be dealt with.

 

If we want to speculate, then lets speculate. In an earlier post, someone found a reference where our culprit runs a local "Leave No Trace" program. In other threads, it was discussed that Leave No Trace means exactly that... "NO TRACE". No trash, no footprints, no urine behind a tree, nothing. Let's assume he's an extremist and feels that all geocaches are litter. The unibomber thought his cause was worthy, so do the people that kill abortion doctors. Whether they are right or wrong is not the issue, it is still against the law. Breaking a law to support a cause is wrong. Find a different way.

 

I am going to work on the assumption that Paul L. Repak is an extremist and feels that all geocaches are litter in the realm of Leave No Trace and feels that the theft of this magnetic Keyholder is justified to support his higher cause. If this is the case - I repeat, if this is the case, then it needs to be dealt with harshly. We aren't talking life term, I believe the maximum is a $250 fine, then it needs to be just that.

At this time it is in the hands of th Judge and the DA to determine his motivation.

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At least one company, WalMart, has a policy to not prosecute first-time shoplifters when the value of the stolen items is less than $25. because it isn't worth the time it takes.

 

 

Do you have a citation for that alleged policy? Because I happen to know for a fact that at least one person was arrested, and had to appear in court, for pocketing a $3 toy in a Wal Mart.

 

Unless things have changed in the last few years it depended on the store manager, one store I worked in was very aggressive towards shoplifters sometimes having as many as 3 LPOs on the floor at the same time,

another store the manager had only one LPO go figure

Makes sense. Some stores have more frequent occurrences of theft than other stores.

 

The nice thing about corporate policy is that it gives the stare manager an opportunity to give an otherwise good kid to realize they made a bad judgement call. If they do it again, bring in the authorities.

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Theft is never ok, regardless of the dollar amount. The issue in my mind is that the ends do not justify the means in this case. If all they are going to charge him with is the theft of a $4 magnet, then what's the point?

I think that you just answered your own question in your opening remark. What part of "Never" did you not really mean? Edited by knowschad

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