Possible? Not Possible?

[+CAAGD]

The organization I work for wants to place 24 Geocaches in and around the Toledo, Ohio area. I work for the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library. The idea is to place caches as hollowed out books somewhere (different) at each of our 18 branch locations, and six in our Main Library location. These are being placed for National Library Week in April of this year. When NLW is over, we want to maintain the caches at their individual sites.

 

The problem isn't really the caches at the 18 locations. They will be the hollowed out books placed somewhere in the stacks. The coordinates will take them to the Library location and a clue will take them to the library's computer catalog and then to the shelf area where the cache is hidden. This isn't the problem. The problem is the six at the Main Library Location. This breaks the distance rule between caches.

 

The Main Library in Toledo has three floors and covers and area of one city block. The reason for six is one in each major department and to give the cacher a nice tour of the Library.

 

For National Library week, we are planning on placing an entry in a drawing for each cache that is found for a new handheld, paperless, GPS unit. Thus, 24 possible chances, per person.

 

After, NLW, we can turn the Main Library's caches into one Multi-cache.

 

Is it possible to get this published the way we want to? Keystone is our area's moderator.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

"CAAGD"

Edited February 17, 2010 by CAAGD

[+AbMagFab]

Can you do the 6 as a single multi-cache - I don't believe the distance limits apply to stages in a multi?

 

Cool idea, btw.

[+sssss]

The best bet is send an email to your reviewer explaining the ins and out of what you are trying to achieve and see what they say.

 

If it is not possible then they may give pointers to get the caches approved.

 

It is always nicer to do it direct with the reviewer rather than a debate on a forum which can end up with the discussion going down some very strange tangents at time

[+ArcherDragoon]

Multi-cache...

 

One book leads to the next and so on...the distance rule does not apply to stages within a single multi...just that each stage has to be .1mile from any other individual cache listing...

 

Edit: As others said...be sure to ask your local reviewer about this before you get too involved in trying to get is posted on the gc.com site...there may be some other things that you may need to do...

Edited February 17, 2010 by ArcherDragoon

[+CAAGD]

An E-Mail to Keystone has been sent explaining what we want to do. As of, 2-17-10, I have not received a reply.

 

-CAAGD

[+The Ravens]

Maybe they can use the 528 book rule?!

[+Renegade Knight]

...Is it possible to get this published the way we want to? Keystone is our area's moderator.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

"CAAGD"

 

First, email Keystone directl and ask. There are exceptions to the 528' rule and since the rule is about saturation, and not so much what you describe there is some room to work and failing that since it's a good idea he can even champion the higher powers who decide exceptions.

 

The other part of the puzzle is making the GPS integral to the hunt. Clues are fine, but the start location would then have to be found with the GPS, but I'm fuzzy on that.

 

Lastly if you fail in your quest, it doesn't change that it's still worthy. You can list caches that qualify here on GC.com and caches that this site chose not to publish on another site. Some caches deserve to live in spite of guidlines that get in the way.

 

Good luck.

[+sbell111]

An E-Mail to Keystone has been sent explaining what we want to do. As of, 2-17-10, I have not received a reply.

 

-CAAGD

Be patient. I'm sure that he will get back to you ASAP.

[+Renegade Knight]

Can you do the 6 as a single multi-cache - I don't believe the distance limits apply to stages in a multi?...

 

I've eard this but never like seeing a forced solution in the form of a crappy multi (Can you tell I don't like them?) when a far better solution exists.

 

Were I traveling to this town I'd miss out on a good cache because I filter out multi's because I may not have time to finish and may never get back to do so. Multi caches have a place but that place isn't as a solution to an artificial problem.

[+DragonsWest]

There's the final of a puzzle in one of the local libraries. I have looked for it twice and haven't found it yet, but I keep looking.

[+briansnat]

One key consideration is GPS use. It needs to be an integral part of all caches. Simply posting the coordinates of the parking lot, or library stairs may not cut it with your reviewer as sufficient GPS use. Hiding a container in the parking lot with a clue to what book it is in, would probably be fine.

 

As others suggested, where they might be to close to each other to be published as traditional caches, you can turn them into multis.

[+Castle Mischief]

Can you do the 6 as a single multi-cache - I don't believe the distance limits apply to stages in a multi?

 

Cool idea, btw.

 

Depends. If the stages are cache containers themselves then yes. If the stages are something along the lines of a sign to gather information from then no.

 

From the guidelines:

 

Cache containers and physical stages should generally be separated by a minimum of 0.1 miles (528 feet or 161 m). A physical stage is defined as any stage that contains a physical element placed by the geocache owner, such as a tag with the next set of coordinates or a container. Non-physical caches or stages including reference points, trailhead/parking coordinates and question to answer waypoints are exempt from this guideline.

[+StarBrand]

I am fairly sure that just listing the front doors is not going to fly unless you find some object there to get the clue to continue.

 

If possible - placing the book near a windows where GPS reception is good might be best.

 

I agree with turning the 6 into a multi to avoid the distance guideline.

 

You might also be awfully close to the commercial/Agenda guidlines - all depends on how you do the writeup for the caches.

[+reedkickball]

I've done four different library geocaches that are located within 25 miles of my house. Each of them we're done by different people in different libraries, and each don't use coordinates to find the geocache within the library. Each of them are multi or mystery caches that require a person to locate preliminary caches (with coordinates) or get information to provide specific directions to locate the final cache in the library (dewey decimal number, or other location information).

 

So if you're going to put it in a library, I'd do something similiar. Put something outside using coordinates that provides information to locate the geocache in the library and I'd most likely make it a mystery cache.

 

As for the 6, I'd make it a multi-cache. There's no proximity requirements between multiple stages in a multi-cache

Edited February 17, 2010 by reedkickball

[+reedkickball]

I've done four different library geocaches that are located within 25 miles of my house. Each of them we're done by different people in different libraries, and each don't use coordinates to find the geocache within the library. Each of them are multi or mystery caches that require a person to locate preliminary caches (with coordinates) or get information to provide specific directions to locate the final cache in the library (dewey decimal number, or other location information).

 

So if you're going to put it in a library, I'd do something similiar. Put something outside using coordinates that provides information to locate the geocache in the library and I'd most likely make it a mystery cache.

 

Here are the library cache examples:

 

http://coord.info/GCQTFC

http://coord.info/GC10RY0

http://coord.info/GCHJFW

http://coord.info/GCT5HZ

[+blackrattle]

If you make it a puzzle with the clues leading to the Dewey numbers on the spine of the books, or have each stage have the Dewey number for the next stage, then the parking lot can be the GPS coords. This makes it either a puzzle or a multi. I would opt for a puzzle, since if one book disappears, the whole series is not compromised. Sounds like a really fun concept, too bad it is too far away for us to try. Good luck.

[+tozainamboku]

Can you do the 6 as a single multi-cache - I don't believe the distance limits apply to stages in a multi?

 

Cool idea, btw.

 

Depends. If the stages are cache containers themselves then yes. If the stages are something along the lines of a sign to gather information from then no.

 

From the guidelines:

 

Cache containers and physical stages should generally be separated by a minimum of 0.1 miles (528 feet or 161 m). A physical stage is defined as any stage that contains a physical element placed by the geocache owner, such as a tag with the next set of coordinates or a container. Non-physical caches or stages including reference points, trailhead/parking coordinates and question to answer waypoints are exempt from this guideline.

Umm, you neglected the next paragraph after the one you quoted

Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements.

In other words, within a single multi-cache or a single multi-stage mystery/puzzle cache, you can place as many containers as you want and there is no proximity rule on how close these containers can be to one another. The rule applies only to how close these containers can be to any physical stage of another cache.

Edited February 17, 2010 by tozainamboku

[+Castle Mischief]

From the guidelines:

 

Cache containers and physical stages should generally be separated by a minimum of 0.1 miles (528 feet or 161 m). A physical stage is defined as any stage that contains a physical element placed by the geocache owner, such as a tag with the next set of coordinates or a container. Non-physical caches or stages including reference points, trailhead/parking coordinates and question to answer waypoints are exempt from this guideline.

Umm, you neglected the next paragraph after the one you quoted

Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements.

In other words, within a single multi-cache or a single multi-stage mystery/puzzle cache, you can place as many containers as you want and there is no proximity rule on how close these containers can be to one another. The rule applies only to how close these containers can be to any physical stage of another cache.

 

Aw crud. Good of you to point out, thanks.

[+briansnat]

If you make it a puzzle with the clues leading to the Dewey numbers on the spine of the books, or have each stage have the Dewey number for the next stage, then the parking lot can be the GPS coords. This makes it either a puzzle or a multi. I would opt for a puzzle, since if one book disappears, the whole series is not compromised. Sounds like a really fun concept, too bad it is too far away for us to try. Good luck.

 

I doubt that would pass muster with the reviewer. A parking lot is not a specific enough object, so it probably wouldn't meet the GPS use requirement.

[Keystone]

I would like to thank everyone who responded! Several of the previous posts are in line with how I was planning to answer the OP's email. Let's pretend I wasn't quite so busy, and had answered the message. Here is a reviewer note that I wrote on February 12th for another cache submission. I was planning on modifying it to be responsive to the OP's email.

 

Hello, I am a volunteer for Geocaching.com, and I reviewed your cache. I'm writing to explain an issue that needs to be fixed before your cache can be published on the website. Your container is located indoors, in a building clearly described on the cache page. I don't need my GPS to find this cache - in fact, once I arrived and parked, I'd be foolish to take the GPS out of my car. It wouldn't work inside the library.

 

Under our listing guidelines, GPS usage is an "essential" component of every cache placement. I would like to work with you to modify your cache design so that it includes the use of GPS coordinates. Here are some examples of how the cache could work:

 

1. Finders use their GPS to find a container outside the library, like hanging in a tree behind the building. Inside the container is a clue sheet telling the finder to come inside to sign the log and trade items from the cache container.

 

2. Finders visit the library to locate an indoors clue giving them the coordinates to a container hidden outdoors for them to find using a GPS. (Either option 1 or option 2 would be listed as a "Multi-Cache.")

 

3. Simply move the container to an outdoors location, in order to keep it as a "Traditional" cache.

 

4. Keep the container indoors at the library, but remove all text from the cache page that would suggest where the cache is located, so that finders would navigate to the front door and be surprised to find out where they had arrived. (Since you want to talk a bit about the library on your cache page, I imagine it won't appeal to you.)

 

After reading this explanation, please let me know when you've modified your cache to meet the guidelines, or if you have any questions.

To this message, I would have added two other comments:

 

-- the six caches at the main library would need to be combined into a single multi-cache; and

-- if the cache page text goes too far in promoting libraries and National Library Week, this could run afoul of the "agenda" clause in the guidelines -- "Caches that Solicit."

 

Finally, I would have noted that one or more of the impediments could be overcome by writing directly to Groundspeak and asking for an exception. As a volunteer I have less latitude to grant exceptions, especially on the "Caches that Solicit" guideline.

[+narcissa]

Reviewers in our area usually waive the proximity guideline for library caches.

[Keystone]

Reviewers in our area usually waive the proximity guideline for library caches.

There's room for flexibility if the library wants to hide a cache on its own property, but there's a lamp post cache hidden by another account, in the shopping center 450 feet across the road.

 

That is very different than six separate caches inside the same building, hidden by the same account. That would require a Lackey's blessing.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Keystone

[+jesperqvist]

I have a mystery-cache in a library. It is of course hidden on one of the shelves in the library.

[+cheech gang]

The particular main library referred to by the OP has green space abutting as well as extensive green space on the roof. I'm sure that space could be used to satisfy the GPS requirement.

 

To fulfill Keystones suggestion #2:

 

Come to the library coordinates and find the six books using some sort of hints from your cache page. Each of the books has one of the numbers needed for a final set of coordinates. N 41° 39.ABC W 083° 32.DEF

 

Go out to the roof garden with the GPS in hand and find the hidden box with the log book.

 

Just keep the finding of the six books simple.

Edited February 18, 2010 by cheech gang

[+KC8JZK]

I found this one back on 2005 http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GCMEGQ

[+The VanDucks]

I see lots of good suggestions above - good luck; this sounds like a great idea! One consideration might be that lots of geocachers may show up the first day the caches are published, rushing to be the FTF's! Better be sure your library staff know what's going on!