People Stealing FTF's

[+angelashley1018]

Haha, now that I have your attention let me explain. A friend of a friend hid a cache. The hidder lets call him George told his friend we will call him BOB about it who in fact told me to watch for it to be published. Meanwhile I sat patiently waiting for the cache to be approved and published. It took a few days for it to be published, so Bob got impatient and took his friend out to find the cache before it was approved. His friend signed the cache as FTF and took the FTF prize. Then when the cache was finally published a few days later Bobs friend logged as FTF and wrote that they had waited for it to be published, which is just a blatant lie. Now I sat by waiting for it to be published so I could go try for a FTF, but in reality a FTF was never possible cause Bob and his friend already claimed it. Its stuff like this that takes the fun out of geocaching. If this was to happen all the time there would be no friendly competiton, just people finding caches before the general public has knowledge that there is a new cache. Some people arent worried about FTF's but its one of the reasons I love caching and it makes geocaching so much fun. When people are unfairly finding caches before they are published is that even fair... has anyone else come accross this... its really frustrating...

[jholly]

Yawn. There is more to caching than the FTF's

[+42at42]

Collect the smiley and know in your heart you were the first.

[+thedeadpirate]

I'm sure Markwell can come up with at least a dozen threads about it.

 

You will likely get a lot of heated posts on both sides of the argument. It tends to be a fairly emotionally charged topic.

 

Frustrating? Sure. Worth losing sleep over? Doubtful.

[+bittsen]

Haha, now that I have your attention let me explain. A friend of a friend hid a cache. The hidder lets call him George told his friend we will call him BOB about it who in fact told me to watch for it to be published. Meanwhile I sat patiently waiting for the cache to be approved and published. It took a few days for it to be published, so Bob got impatient and took his friend out to find the cache before it was approved. His friend signed the cache as FTF and took the FTF prize. Then when the cache was finally published a few days later Bobs friend logged as FTF and wrote that they had waited for it to be published, which is just a blatant lie. Now I sat by waiting for it to be published so I could go try for a FTF, but in reality a FTF was never possible cause Bob and his friend already claimed it. Its stuff like this that takes the fun out of geocaching. If this was to happen all the time there would be no friendly competiton, just people finding caches before the general public has knowledge that there is a new cache. Some people arent worried about FTF's but its one of the reasons I love caching and it makes geocaching so much fun. When people are unfairly finding caches before they are published is that even fair... has anyone else come accross this... its really frustrating...

 

Yes

 

 

You have to remember that GC.com is just a listing service. I can assure you with 100% confidence that this practice goes on but it's not against any guidelines. I can also assure you with 100% confidence that there are 1000s of caches that will NEVER be listed on GC.com. So, there are 1000's of caches that you will never have a shot at FTF on because you may never even know about them.

 

FTF is just something that some poeple like to do. Some will do anything they have to to be the first to sign a logsheet including getting the coordinates before the cache is published on GC.com. It's not "cheating" because this isn't a game. There aren't any real winners, only "players".

 

So, for anyone who goes to extremes to get a FTF (because it's a FTF) the FTF and 50 cents will get you a large gumball.

 

Once you find out that you can count on Bob and George are playing outside of Geocaching.com, it's really easy to ignore the caches they are associated with when it comes to FTFs.

[+angelashley1018]

I'm sure Markwell can come up with at least a dozen threads about it.

 

You will likely get a lot of heated posts on both sides of the argument. It tends to be a fairly emotionally charged topic.

 

Frustrating? Sure. Worth losing sleep over? Doubtful.

 

I dont understand how there can be posts on both sides of the argument... its almost like people have to be so unethical about everything in the world and geocaching is just another way for people to show their true colors... I am not going to lose sleep over this just going to be pissed for a really long time... and not do any of their caches either... there shouldn't have to be rules about everything it should be common sense to wait for it to be published... its rediculous and unethical... and people who are for this type of thing... they need to re evaluate what type of people they really are....

 

No going to lose sleep just wanted to know if this happens to other people... IM sorry there has to be so many dishonesy people in the world

[+angelashley1018]

Yawn. There is more to caching than the FTF's

 

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's... travelbugs are always missing, and caches get lamer and lamer, at least there is the competition factor in a FTF... if its not FTF's its a numbers game... and ppl think the more the better... either way FTF's are fun, and at least friendly competition

[+narcissa]

You can't cheat on an FTF. It's not something that Groundspeak monitors or cares about. Move on.

[+thedeadpirate]

No going to lose sleep just wanted to know if this happens to other people... IM sorry there has to be so many dishonesy people in the world

 

Yes, it happens quite a bit, actually.

 

When you have so much controversy over what a valid Find log is, it stands to reason the FTF claims would be an issue as well.

 

Some of it is ignorance, some of it is flat out dishonesty, and a lot of it is in between.

 

But it has been pointed out many times that geocaching is much more than a smiley face. If I were geocaching for points, I'm afraid I would have given it up a long time ago.

 

I'm not saying I don't enjoy seeing a fresh logbook. I just signed one last week. But I generally don't rush out to grab caches before anyone else. It's just not my thing.

 

However, we have 2 or 3 FTF hounds (1 who swears he isn't even though everyone knows he is ) in our local caching group. It's a lot of fun to watch them post on the boards and cache pages. But I'm sure if any of them came across the situation you described, they would just make note of that hider and avoid the rush on his caches in the future. They would not let it ruin their fun.

 

I guess what I'm saying is you can choose to let it get you down or you can choose to not let it bother you and move on. The choice you make will determine how much fun you have.

[+thedeadpirate]

Yawn. There is more to caching than the FTF's

 

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's

 

I just took a look through your gallery. It looks to me like you have a lot of fun caching with friends. Looks like you only have 13 FTF's listed on your profile. You have over 300 finds and a number of hides. I think you already know there's more to geocaching than FTF.

[+tozainamboku]

Yawn. There is more to caching than the FTF's

 

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's... travelbugs are always missing, and caches get lamer and lamer, at least there is the competition factor in a FTF... if its not FTF's its a numbers game... and ppl think the more the better... either way FTF's are fun, and at least friendly competition

FTF is a game invented by some players who compete over who is the first to find a new cache. It is not an official part of the game nor one that particularly has many people playing - as least as if it is the only fun part of the game.

 

When I began geocaching some people put FTF prizes in their caches. These did not necessarily mean that the cache owner intended there to be a race to see who could find the new cache first. Mostly it was because there were fewer cachers and the prize encouraged people to look for this cache and not some other cache. Cache owners liked getting that first found it log. Some geocachers didn't even want to look for new caches because the coordinates might be off or something; they preferred to wait and see what the first finder of the cache thought before going off to look for the cache.

 

Somewhere along the line the meaning of FTF was changed by a few geocachers who turned it into a side game. Now every cache, especially easy to get to urban and suburban hides, became a new competition to see who could find the cache quickest. These geocachers made up a rule - that every geocacher had an equal access to be FTF on every cache. That looking for cache because the owner gave you information before it was publish was cheating. In fact many people caches for a special event and give coordinates out at that event before the cache is published for the general public. Some people have hidden engagement rings or other gifts in a cache and ask the reviewer to withhold publication until the recipient of the gift has found the cache. The FTF crowd can delude themselves into thinking that actions like this are cheating. In fact they are wrong. They need to accept that sometimes a geocache will be published that has already been found. There is no point getting bent out of shape over this. Forget about about this cache, it was not in play in your game.

[+geodarts]

I avoid the problem by not using the three initials or congratulating myself

[+Opalblade]

You have my sympathy - that does sound very frustrating. I'd tell Bob you were disappointed he took Cacher X out to look for it before it published after he got you all pumped for a FTF hunt, but don't be upset at him - he likely didn't realize how excited you were.

 

You've gotten some great advice such as, don't rush out for caches associated with those two from here on out to prevent future disappointment, know that you were FTF in your heart (assuming you were STF), and that it definitely shouldn't skew your view of geocaching, even temporarily. Approach each potential FTF with the assumption that you will be STF and you will be much happier If that really is enough for you to dislike caching maybe you need to step away from it until you get to the point that you'd have to be chained down to be prevented from going after a cache

 

Totally don't understand why people get so excitable when FTF are mentioned Sig items are a side thing some find fun that is not sanctioned by Groundspeak and that many cachers do not enjoy or partake in, but you don't see snarky dismissive comments in those threads.

[4wheelin_fool]

Fourth to find is still FTF. Claim it when you can!

[Neath Worthies]

Geocaching is about finding an object someone else has hidden.

 

Did you find the box? Yes? Great. Now move on and find another one.

[Clan Riffster]

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's... if its not FTF's its a numbers game... and ppl think the more the better...

Neither the FTF silliness nor the numbers game apply to how and why I cache. I cache for the (mis)adventures I get into while on the trails, and the people I interact with. Adding an invented subgame, replete with competition and all the squabbling inherent in such nonsense holds very little interest for me. Cranking up my numbers also hold very little interest for me.

 

If someone, (let's call him Bob), hides a cache, he is free to publish it whenever and however he wishes, be it submitting it to a listing service such as Groundspeak, or calling his buddy and telling him the coords over the phone. It's not cheating, nor is it dishonest, unethical or whatever negative label you choose to adhere to the practice.

 

Someone much wiser than I once opined that if you're not having fun playing this game, you're doing something wrong. If spending days at a time being angry is not fun for you, then perhaps you're doing something wrong, such as expecting folks to play this game the way you see fit. If you'll adjust your expectations, you'll likely enjoy yourself a lot more.

[+Isonzo Karst]

If George told you to "watch for it" specifically referencing "watching" for the FTF opportunity, and then took someone else out to sign the log, you need to be cautious of George's words in the future.

 

On the other hand, if he just told you to "watch for it", and all the FTF expectation is in your head, move on.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Yawn. There is more to caching than the FTF's

 

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's... travelbugs are always missing, and caches get lamer and lamer, at least there is the competition factor in a FTF... if its not FTF's its a numbers game... and ppl think the more the better... either way FTF's are fun, and at least friendly competition

 

I don't know how far you travel to look for a FTF but if you lived in my area and only went after caches to get a FTF you would essentially not be geocaching at all. I just did a search to find caches which had been placed within 20 miles of me that were placed in the last three months. There were only six results and the closest was over 12 miles away.

[GOF and Bacall]

Yawn. There is more to caching than the FTF's

 

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's... travelbugs are always missing, and caches get lamer and lamer, at least there is the competition factor in a FTF... if its not FTF's its a numbers game... and ppl think the more the better... either way FTF's are fun, and at least friendly competition

 

You are taking way to seriously for it to be "friendly competition".

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

If George and Bob are your friends, perhaps you should re-evaluate what you feel a friend should be. Personally, we would probably drop their status to "acquaintances" and let it go at that. There are too many grapes in the vineyard to worry about a couple of sours.

 

You know what they are, they know what they are -- you may fill in the "what" with whatever term you desire.

 

Apparently they wish to grease one another and exclude all others. I cannot see getting too worked up over it as they probably do it in other aspects of life, outside of geocaching.

 

For goodness sake (and peace of mind), have fun and forget about "greasy" things.

You asked for opinions, you got mine and I'm sticking to it!

[+briansnat]

I'm sure Markwell can come up with at least a dozen threads about it.

 

You will likely get a lot of heated posts on both sides of the argument. It tends to be a fairly emotionally charged topic.

 

Frustrating? Sure. Worth losing sleep over? Doubtful.

 

I dont understand how there can be posts on both sides of the argument... its almost like people have to be so unethical about everything in the world and geocaching is just another way for people to show their true colors... I am not going to lose sleep over this just going to be pissed for a really long time... and not do any of their caches either... there shouldn't have to be rules about everything it should be common sense to wait for it to be published... its rediculous and unethical... and people who are for this type of thing... they need to re evaluate what type of people they really are....

 

No going to lose sleep just wanted to know if this happens to other people... IM sorry there has to be so many dishonesy people in the world

 

There is nothing unethical or dishonest about it. This is only a listing site. The cache owner is free advertise his cache any way he pleases. If that means before he has it listed here he posts coordinates on his blog, emails them to friends, posts them on another geocaching site, places an ad in a newspaper, whatever, that is nobody's business but the cache owner's.

 

FTF is an unofficial side game played by a small segment of geocachers. The cache owner is under no obligation to cater to these people. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

Thanks for the advice. I will take the time to re-evaluate the kind of person I am.

[+Stargazer22]

Threads like this one come up about once a month or so.

Inevitably, the artificial 'competition' being injected into the game is the source of the problem.

Worrying about FTFs and how others play the game is a good way to ruin the fun.

Maybe that's why you aren't enjoying it as much as you could be.

Geocaching is like losing weight. Do it for yourself and be happy with your own results. Trying to compare yourself with others and making some kind of competition out of it can have a negative impact.

 

Since this site is only a listing service, there is nothing that says that caches listed here must be available for a FTF for the general geocaching public. Caches may have been listed on other sites prior to being listed here, or used for personal geocaching fun before being listed here. Be glad that they listed another cache for you to find. Being upset with them for the way they listed it only reflects poorly on your own attitude.

 

I am very glad that FTF is not officially recognized by the site and they do not attempt to make caching a competetive game.

[aniyn]

It does seem dishonest to go out ahead of time, take the prize, and then lie about it in the log. The FTF thing gets lame like this sometimes.

[+Too Tall John]

FTF is an unofficial side game played by a small segment of geocachers. The cache owner is under no obligation to cater to these people. There is nothing wrong with that.

So true!

 

What happens if I start listing caches with the intention that nobody ever finds them? It's a great game for me, I hide more and more & have a trophy wall of my unfound cache listings! Has someone stolen one of my trophies if they find one of those caches?

 

No, because that is not the intended use of this website. Neither is the FTF craze. If I want to pursue my Unfound Cache Wall and you want to have FTF rules, we both need to go start our own websites.

 

On second though, perhaps I should skip the website. How else will I keep my caches secret and unfound?

[knowschad]

Yawn. There is more to caching than the FTF's

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's... travelbugs are always missing, and caches get lamer and lamer, at least there is the competition factor in a FTF... if its not FTF's its a numbers game... and ppl think the more the better... either way FTF's are fun, and at least friendly competition

There was a time, long, long ago, where there was no competition in geocaching. Competition was not the point of geocaching. No competition in FTFs (the term hadn't even been invented yet, much less the concept) and no competition in find counts. Just that easy, peaceful feeling of a walk in the woods with something to find at the end of it. But that was long, long ago.

[+GeoGeeBee]

Haha, now that I have your attention let me explain. A friend of a friend hid a cache. The hidder lets call him George told his friend we will call him BOB about it who in fact told me to watch for it to be published. Meanwhile I sat patiently waiting for the cache to be approved and published. It took a few days for it to be published, so Bob got impatient and took his friend out to find the cache before it was approved. His friend signed the cache as FTF and took the FTF prize. Then when the cache was finally published a few days later Bobs friend logged as FTF and wrote that they had waited for it to be published, which is just a blatant lie. Now I sat by waiting for it to be published so I could go try for a FTF, but in reality a FTF was never possible cause Bob and his friend already claimed it. Its stuff like this that takes the fun out of geocaching. If this was to happen all the time there would be no friendly competiton, just people finding caches before the general public has knowledge that there is a new cache. Some people arent worried about FTF's but its one of the reasons I love caching and it makes geocaching so much fun. When people are unfairly finding caches before they are published is that even fair... has anyone else come accross this... its really frustrating...

 

Your pain and frustration are evident in your post. I want to care, but I just don't.

 

You either enjoy being outdoors and hunting for caches, or you don't. When it stops being fun, it's time to find something else to occupy your time.

 

BTW, I hid a cache on Saturday and took my GF out to find it on Sunday, before I'd even submitted it to Groundspeak. I hope that doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, but it was really important to me that she find it first, and that it happened on Valentine's day. I hope that doesn't mess with anyone's sense of entitlement.

[GOF and Bacall]

To those of you who play the FTF game, have fun. Just don't expect everyone to play along. If I hide a cache and give the coordinates to a friend we are not cheating. We just aren't playing your game. For us it is about the cache and the location, not who finds it first.

 

Now if my friend logs online with "WOOHOO! FTF!" yeah, that would be rude.

[+rob3k]

I'm sure Markwell can come up with at least a dozen threads about it.

 

You will likely get a lot of heated posts on both sides of the argument. It tends to be a fairly emotionally charged topic.

 

Frustrating? Sure. Worth losing sleep over? Doubtful.

 

I dont understand how there can be posts on both sides of the argument... its almost like people have to be so unethical about everything in the world and geocaching is just another way for people to show their true colors... I am not going to lose sleep over this just going to be pissed for a really long time... and not do any of their caches either... there shouldn't have to be rules about everything it should be common sense to wait for it to be published... its rediculous and unethical... and people who are for this type of thing... they need to re evaluate what type of people they really are....

 

No going to lose sleep just wanted to know if this happens to other people... IM sorry there has to be so many dishonesy people in the world

 

There is nothing unethical or dishonest about it. This is only a listing site. The cache owner is free advertise his cache any way he pleases. If that means before he has it listed here he posts coordinates on his blog, emails them to friends, posts them on another geocaching site, places an ad in a newspaper, whatever, that is nobody's business but the cache owner's.

 

FTF is an unofficial side game played by a small segment of geocachers. The cache owner is under no obligation to cater to these people. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

Thanks for the advice. I will take the time to re-evaluate the kind of person I am.

 

I'd disagree, if (big if) the cache description mentions a FTF prize or is updated to congratulate a FTF. If you make yourself part of the game, you should do it fairly. Just my 2 cents.

[Clan Riffster]

Do it for yourself and be happy with your own results.

Jerry, that really needs to be on a T-shirt.

[+briansnat]

Yawn. There is more to caching than the FTF's

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's... travelbugs are always missing, and caches get lamer and lamer, at least there is the competition factor in a FTF... if its not FTF's its a numbers game... and ppl think the more the better... either way FTF's are fun, and at least friendly competition

There was a time, long, long ago, where there was no competition in geocaching. Competition was not the point of geocaching. No competition in FTFs (the term hadn't even been invented yet, much less the concept) and no competition in find counts. Just that easy, peaceful feeling of a walk in the woods with something to find at the end of it. But that was long, long ago.

 

It still is that way for many of us.

[+Ms.Scrabbler]

All caches are FTF for us "First Time Found by us"

 

Only twice we've headed out ASAP when we saw caches placed but that was only because they were very close to home and we have a FTF hound here that is rather smug about it. The 2 of us rushing out of the house was rather fun, it felt like we were co-conspirators on a secret mission - it was late evening after all

 

I'll admit to taking someone out before submitting one of our new caches, I needed to have coords double checked. However, she signed on the 2nd line and left the FTF line blank and didn't post until the FTF got it posted. It wouldn't have bothered me is she had posted FTF.

[+briansnat]

I'm sure Markwell can come up with at least a dozen threads about it.

 

You will likely get a lot of heated posts on both sides of the argument. It tends to be a fairly emotionally charged topic.

 

Frustrating? Sure. Worth losing sleep over? Doubtful.

 

I dont understand how there can be posts on both sides of the argument... its almost like people have to be so unethical about everything in the world and geocaching is just another way for people to show their true colors... I am not going to lose sleep over this just going to be pissed for a really long time... and not do any of their caches either... there shouldn't have to be rules about everything it should be common sense to wait for it to be published... its rediculous and unethical... and people who are for this type of thing... they need to re evaluate what type of people they really are....

 

No going to lose sleep just wanted to know if this happens to other people... IM sorry there has to be so many dishonesy people in the world

 

There is nothing unethical or dishonest about it. This is only a listing site. The cache owner is free advertise his cache any way he pleases. If that means before he has it listed here he posts coordinates on his blog, emails them to friends, posts them on another geocaching site, places an ad in a newspaper, whatever, that is nobody's business but the cache owner's.

 

FTF is an unofficial side game played by a small segment of geocachers. The cache owner is under no obligation to cater to these people. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

Thanks for the advice. I will take the time to re-evaluate the kind of person I am.

 

I'd disagree, if (big if) the cache description mentions a FTF prize or is updated to congratulate a FTF. If you make yourself part of the game, you should do it fairly. Just my 2 cents.

 

There is no rule that says the FTF has to be someone who learned of the cache through this website. Geocaching.com is nothing more than a convenient place for cache owners to advertise his caches. It's not the only place.

Edited February 15, 2010 by briansnat

[+ngrrfan]

I'll admit to taking someone out before submitting one of our new caches, I needed to have coords double checked. However, she signed on the 2nd line and left the FTF line blank and didn't post until the FTF got it posted. It wouldn't have bothered me is she had posted FTF.

I have a partner that has done the same for me. She's still waiting for the cache to be found so she can then log the find when I (we) hid it.

[CoyoteRed]

It's not "cheating" because this isn't a game.

That's why I cringe ever time I hear, "...the game, the sport, yes, the obsession..." when describing geocaching.

 

It's a hobby.

 

There aren't any real winners, only "players".

 

No winners or losers, only "hobbyists."

[+SgtSue]

Yawn. There is more to caching than the FTF's

 

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's... travelbugs are always missing, and caches get lamer and lamer, at least there is the competition factor in a FTF... if its not FTF's its a numbers game... and ppl think the more the better... either way FTF's are fun, and at least friendly competition

What more is there? Time away from all the responsibilities of being an adult. Visiting with my friends as we drive from one site to the other. Spotting some wildlife as we walk through the woods. Learning something new, be it a bit of local history or a geological lesson. Laughing, just because it's fun. Taking time to drive down that dirt road, just to see what is there. Being out in the sunshine and even in our little bit of southern snow. Making new friends. There is plenty more than TBs and FTFs. And while the "lame" cache count may increase so does the "enjoyable" caches - no matter what "enjoyable" is to you.

 

Yesterday a friend and I drove 50 miles round trip and picked up 14 caches / 5 were well stocked ammo cans with TBs and Geocoins. We found a llama / alpaca ranch and talked to the owners. Took the time to eat a sit down lunch. And visited a state park. It's all what you make of it. If you are in it for the fun, you'll find it.

[+DanOCan]

I dont understand how there can be posts on both sides of the argument...

 

There are posts on both sides of the argument because there are a large majority of cachers who could not care less about the FTF game or the drama it generates. If your only enjoyment from a cache comes from finding it first then it might not be a very good cache.

[knowschad]

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's... travelbugs are always missing, and caches get lamer and lamer, at least there is the competition factor in a FTF... if its not FTF's its a numbers game... and ppl think the more the better... either way FTF's are fun, and at least friendly competition

You live and cache in awesome British Columbia and all you can find are "lamer and lamer" caches? How can that be?

[+StarBrand]

FTF and 50 cents buys a can of pop at the local vending machine.

 

The first person to get to the cache and sign the log is FTF - by whatever means they have.

 

Was the cache in a cool spot? Did you have fun looking for it? You certainly came away with a story to along with it. All that should be enough.

[+secretagentbill]

1. Get to be good buddies with George.

2. Get inside info on his next cache hide.

3. Find it before it's published and claim FTF.

4. Stick out your tongue at Bob and say "neener, neener, neener".

 

There you go, retribution.

 

But seriously, what would you do if a cacher cross-lists a cache on two listing sites? OtherCachingSite.com lists it a day before Geocaching.com. There will be people that find it because of the other listing, before you even knew about it on GC .com.

 

Also, some people could stumble across a cache before it's published, just out of luck or something. It's OK. They're still first.

[+NeecesandNephews]

Angela I will weigh in with an opinion!!! JUST an opinion.

I sympathize with you. I think the situation you describe is a bummer. I can see your point of view, and understand completely how you feel. I guess I have higher expectations of other people. I will continue to feel that way no matter what happens.

I am way new here, and have asked a lot of questions, done a lot of reading, and been involved in some less than pleasant "discussions", all for the sake of trying to understand what we are playing here.

 

I have concluded the best description for Geocaching is "structured chaos"! It seems even the basic game is not agreed upon, and then there are the "subsets" of games going on.

 

Some cachers are in it for the view. Some cachers are in it for the numbers. Some cachers are in it for the mental challenge, some for the physical challenge, ect. ect.. ad nauseum.

 

The part I have found unsettling is the lack of concern, and the intolerance people show to others who might not be playing "their" game.

I love horseshoes. Tournaments will find a similar situation. Some people play "bust" where your winning score has to be exactly 21, not over. If you are on 19 and throw a 5 point ringer you don't win, you get knocked down to 11. Which is fine if that is the game you are playing.

I used Monopoly in an analogy a short time ago, and Toz correctly pointed out that it is a game that is frequently played by "house rules". I agree! The problem surfaces in the fact that even when joining a group playing by "house rules" and not the rules of the game designer, everyone agrees to those rules in advance. Such is not the case here.

Many here will be quick to point out, in their opinions, there are no rules, just guidelines. Personally I like to feel the game I am playing is fair and we all have an equal chance of winning. Optimistic viewpoint, and morally sound, but how do you handle it when there are different games being played??? Or different version, with different "house rules"?? What exactly do you consider a "win"??

FTF'rs are not interested in numbers other than #1.

Number chasers are not interested in the view.

Puzzle chasers dont give a whit for your Micro.

Outdoor adventure types think your LPC is mundane.

I realize it is "cliche'" but if you are not having fun, why are you playing? This is a seemingly harsh thing to ask. Its hard to tell if I was being "pissy" when I really wasn't. But the question is logical.

I have tried to decide what I want to play. In my location it's a "take it or leave it" situation. FTF is almost a flicker of a dream. Puzzles??? Not much to choose from. Breathtaking view??? Unless you consider "breathtaking" in the sense of the overpowering stench wafting from a dairy feedlot, not much to find there either. I think you get my drift.

Like I said, the situation you described sucks. Best advice I can give you??? Mental note!!! Remember the guys you spoke of are NOT playing the same game you are, or are not playing it fairly. While I will finish the round with a cheater, I wont play with them again. Not trying to be childish, just stating the facts.

I make a note of who is playing what game, and then, even in their responses on this forum, I take their responses from that standpoint.

I try to find someone who is playing the same game I am to converse with, and will go to those people with a question about the "game" we are playing, because I know they are playing the same game.

Like the horseshoe analogy above, we can all get together and have fun, but remember... some people are playing a different "version" of the game, and while I may not want to play "their" version, its unfair of me to expect them to play mine. Guilty as charged... I have tried to do this. Didn't work out!!!!

 

edit-spelling, sorry ,OCD

Edited February 15, 2010 by NeecesandNephews

[knowschad]

FTF and 50 cents buys a can of pop at the local vending machine.

I want to see a picture of one of those vending machines, with today's newspaper in the photo to prove that its recent.

[+secretagentbill]

Oh, I should add a story. Recently, in my area a cacher hid a couple of new caches in the area where I work. The first was published on a Friday, but I didn't have my GPS at work, so I didn't pick it up until Saturday, so I missed the FTF. The next was published on Sunday afternoon, so I ran over during my lunch break on Monday. I arrived at GZ while another cacher was searching and I managed to find it first (My first and only FTF). The next day, I was walking in the same area (a sprawling, scenic, engineering-industrial park) and I saw a set of footprints in the snow going off the sidewalk and leading over to the big sign at the entrance to the park. They trampled around the area and then back to the sidewalk. My mind quickly told me that it had to be the third cache in the series. I walked over and briefly looked over the sign. I found nothing and nothing was ever published, so it must not have been the cacher's tracks. But if it had been, I would have had FTF before it was published, with no inside info. So, it's not cheating or wrong. Just you win some and lose some. Even if you're not FTF, you can still enjoy finding the cache.

 

Edit: typo

Edited February 15, 2010 by secretagentbill

[+angelashley1018]

I'm sure Markwell can come up with at least a dozen threads about it.

 

You will likely get a lot of heated posts on both sides of the argument. It tends to be a fairly emotionally charged topic.

 

Frustrating? Sure. Worth losing sleep over? Doubtful.

 

I dont understand how there can be posts on both sides of the argument... its almost like people have to be so unethical about everything in the world and geocaching is just another way for people to show their true colors... I am not going to lose sleep over this just going to be pissed for a really long time... and not do any of their caches either... there shouldn't have to be rules about everything it should be common sense to wait for it to be published... its rediculous and unethical... and people who are for this type of thing... they need to re evaluate what type of people they really are....

 

No going to lose sleep just wanted to know if this happens to other people... IM sorry there has to be so many dishonesy people in the world

 

There is nothing unethical or dishonest about it. This is only a listing site. The cache owner is free advertise his cache any way he pleases. If that means before he has it listed here he posts coordinates on his blog, emails them to friends, posts them on another geocaching site, places an ad in a newspaper, whatever, that is nobody's business but the cache owner's.

 

FTF is an unofficial side game played by a small segment of geocachers. The cache owner is under no obligation to cater to these people. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

Thanks for the advice. I will take the time to re-evaluate the kind of person I am.

 

I'd disagree, if (big if) the cache description mentions a FTF prize or is updated to congratulate a FTF. If you make yourself part of the game, you should do it fairly. Just my 2 cents.

 

The cache page did advertise there was a FTF prize available.

[+StarBrand]

FTF and 50 cents buys a can of pop at the local vending machine.

I want to see a picture of one of those vending machines, with today's newspaper in the photo to prove that its recent.

OK

 

[knowschad]

FTF and 50 cents buys a can of pop at the local vending machine.

I want to see a picture of one of those vending machines, with today's newspaper in the photo to prove that its recent.

OK

 

LOL! Nice job on that 50 cent sign!!

[+Col. Flagg]

Yawn. There is more to caching than the FTF's

 

What more is there to geocaching than FTF's... travelbugs are always missing, and caches get lamer and lamer, at least there is the competition factor in a FTF... if its not FTF's its a numbers game... and ppl think the more the better... either way FTF's are fun, and at least friendly competition

 

You know, you could always hide some great caches yourself as an inspiration to others. I've found quite a few hides that I know I want to duplicate because they are awesome.

 

Or, you could keep whining. Your choice.

 

Edit: Just so you know this was actually written by Cpl. Klinger, not my Col. Flagg. Not that I disagree with him, but he forgot to log me out.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Col. Flagg

[+Castle Mischief]

FTF and 50 cents buys a can of pop at the local vending machine.

I want to see a picture of one of those vending machines, with today's newspaper in the photo to prove that its recent.

 

You forgot "with you holding your GPS".

[+NeecesandNephews]

He shoots... he scores!!!!!!!! OUCH!!! Sorry for the off topic. lol

 

(edit to add the above comment was in reference to Starbrands pic)

Edited February 15, 2010 by NeecesandNephews

[+briansnat]

Like I said, the situation you described sucks. Best advice I can give you??? Mental note!!! Remember the guys you spoke of are NOT playing the same game you are, or are not playing it fairly. While I will finish the round with a cheater, I wont play with them again. Not trying to be childish, just stating the facts.

 

Maybe the facts as you see them, but it shows a serious misunderstanding of the purpose of this website. It is merely a listing service for geocaches.

 

If others want to add to their fun by making up unsanctioned sub games, that is their business, but how dare they expect everybody else here to accommodate them. This website and its users are under no obligation to accommodate any of these made up sub games, nor should they be.

 

I place caches for geocachers to find. If some of them are playing the FTF game, or some numbers game, or some well rounded geocacher quest or any of a number of other sub games that are out there, it is of no consequence to me. I shouldn't be expected to cater to every sub game, or any, if I don't want to.

 

It isn't being unfair, it isn't cheating, it isn't dishonesty, it's geocaching.

Edited February 15, 2010 by briansnat

[+Opalblade]

I understand the logic behind a lot of the comments but in this situation (assuming I have the facts correct):

 

1/ The CO WAS intending to cater to the FTF game - he left a FTF prize even.

2/ Bob's friend X was dishonest about when they found the cache, saying it was after the publish instead of before.

3/ Why the dishonesty unless Bob knew that it wasn't the CO's intent for people to be able to FTF before publish?

4/ X took the FTF prize - probably not the way the CO intended his FTF prize to be earned.

5/ If Bob knew about the FTF prize and that a subgame was in play in his area that both the CO and the OP enjoyed, why take X out before the publish?

 

Whether or not you like the house rules, the CO presumably plays by them so all the ad nauseam comments about soda pop and it not being an official Groundspeak side game, and the CO could have shared the info or listed it wherever he wanted are irrelevant.

 

And while I'm talking about soda pop - who originally made this comment? B/c it no longer looks witty when spread over multiple posts by multiple posters for multiple arguments In Opalblade world only the original poster of the analogy would be able to say it from now on, and then only in moderation

Edited February 15, 2010 by Opalblade