Scout Troup Caches

[+NeecesandNephews]

Ok I am going to go out on limb and bring my dog back to this hunt!! I posted some comments related to the original topic. I expressed an opinion. In the subsequent train wreck this thread has turned into, I have read, and reread some comments in order to get a better grasp of the points being put forth.

 

Starting with recent ones, I understand the point GeoGeeBee is trying to make. I think. I believe what he is defending is the writing that says "follow the log online for thirty days, and share the results with your Counselor". If I am correct he is stating that this quote is strictly in reference to the Merit Badge. The context of the "30 days" is in reference to "sharing with your Counselor"and refers to qualifying for the Badge, not the cache in general.

 

I will state personal opinion that this quote is somewhat confusing, and could be worded with more clarity to prevent misinterpretation.

 

KC is putting forth the opinion, or asking for opinion, on the long term maintenance of Scout caches. Several leaders have posted replies. While I can understand the difficulties any Leader of any youth group encounters, these don't really go to the heart of the thread. It seems they only apply to the topic of the thread "Scout Caches... Do they get maintained?" in the context of answering "No... but let me explain why."

 

I will inch further out on the limb and state my additional opinionated observation that encouraging Scouts to place a cache for the sole purpose of earning a Merit Badge, goes into the irresponsible behavior/leadership area.

 

There are many ways to introduce Scouts to the hobby, the technical aspect, and skill development, by simply letting them "play" the game without placing caches. The skill of use of a GPS is easily demonstrated by their find log. (although some on this site would disagree, and claim we were teaching them numbers caching ) If the lesson, or part of it, is the "responsibility" of maintaining a cache I think 30 days, or even 90 days by the Guidelines definition of "permanence" hardly merits a Badge.

 

Introduce them to the game, and IF they show a continued interest in it, let them choose to hide a cache.If they are genuinely interested they will graduate to this point on their own.

 

And in defense of "why" Scouts are being singled out over any other youth, or group of any kind, I feel it is because they are being encouraged to participate in the "sport/hobby" by hiding a cache when they have not demonstrated that interest on their own, outside of the desire to earn the Merit Badge.

 

Had they chosen to continue in the "sport/hobby" on their own, then chosen to hide a cache, and later lost interest in it, letting it fall into the "death cycle', they would not be the focus of any more criticism than is extended to anyone who does this.

 

I think the question remains, whether or not they receive adequate maintenance. I only know the experience I have had with caches in my immediate area.

edit-typo

Edited March 30, 2010 by NeecesandNephews

[+modnar24]

 

c) Set up and hide a public geocache, following all the www.geocaching.com guidelines. With your parent’s permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.[/i]

 

My concern is that it conveys the idea that responsibility for the cache will end in one month.

 

I think you are right on here. The BSA organization seems to be ignoring the guidelines for cache placement when it comes to permanance.

 

As a merit badge counselor, I disagree with your conclusion. The requirement clearly states that the cache must be placed following the guidelines.

 

To earn any merit badge, the scout works with a counselor who is experienced in the field under study. In this case, the counselor would be an experienced geocacher. I believe the counselor will make sure the scout understands the permanence guidelines, and will encourage the scout to select one of the other three options for this requirement if he isn't able to commit to taking care of the cache.

 

The requirement is to have the scout share the logs with the counselor. 30 days is reasonable for that purpose. It shouldn't take six months to earn a merit badge.

 

I'll admit that I was wrong in saying that they were ignoring the guidelines. My mistake was in the reading of the requirement. I think it would be better written if the two sentences were different parts of the same requirement. Something like:

 

c) Set up and hide a public geocache.

1. follow all the www.geocaching.com guidelines.

2. With your parent’s permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

 

Simple edit, but it seperates the requirement of following the guidelines and following the logs for 30 days.

 

I had a lot more I wanted to say about this, but I feel like I already said it earlier when I posted about adults deciding what kids want to do. I think if a scout hides a cache because they want to; Then that is a great thing. If they hide it because a scout leader told them that it's a requirement; We might start getting unmaintained caches.

 

6 months might be a stretch but is not out of the question for a merit badge. I remember quite a few that had 90 day requirements. Since it is an optional requirement anyways, why not follow the logs for at least 90 days and not risk the appearence (or risk) of not following the guidelines.

 

M24

[knowschad]

Ok I am going to go out on limb and bring my dog back to this hunt!! I posted some comments related to the original topic. I expressed an opinion. In the subsequent train wreck this thread has turned into, I have read, and reread some comments in order to get a better grasp of the points being put forth.

 

Starting with recent ones, I understand the point GeoGeeBee is trying to make. I think. I believe what he is defending is the writing that says "follow the log online for thirty days, and share the results with your Counselor". If I am correct he is stating that this quote is strictly in reference to the Merit Badge. The context of the "30 days" is in reference to "sharing with your Counselor"and refers to qualifying for the Badge, not the cache in general.

 

I will state personal opinion that this quote is somewhat confusing, and could be worded with more clarity to prevent misinterpretation.

 

KC is putting forth the opinion, or asking for opinion, on the long term maintenance of Scout caches. Several leaders have posted replies. While I can understand the difficulties any Leader of any youth group encounters, these don't really go to the heart of the thread. It seems they only apply to the topic of the thread "Scout Caches... Do they get maintained?" in the context of answering "No... but let me explain why."

 

I will inch further out on the limb and state my additional opinionated observation that encouraging Scouts to place a cache for the sole purpose of earning a Merit Badge, goes into the irresponsible behavior/leadership area.

 

There are many ways to introduce Scouts to the hobby, the technical aspect, and skill development, by simply letting them "play" the game without placing caches. The skill of use of a GPS is easily demonstrated by their find log. (although some on this site would disagree, and claim we were teaching them numbers caching ) If the lesson, or part of it, is the "responsibility" of maintaining a cache I think 30 days, or even 90 days by the Guidelines definition of "permanence" hardly merits a Badge.

 

Introduce them to the game, and IF they show a continued interest in it, let them choose to hide a cache.If they are genuinely interested they will graduate to this point on their own.

 

And in defense of "why" Scouts are being singled out over any other youth, or group of any kind, I feel it is because they are being encouraged to participate in the "sport/hobby" by hiding a cache when they have not demonstrated that interest on their own, outside of the desire to earn the Merit Badge.

 

Had they chosen to continue in the "sport/hobby" on their own, then chosen to hide a cache, and later lost interest in it, letting it fall into the "death cycle', they would not be the focus of any more criticism than is extended to anyone who does this.

 

I think the question remains, whether or not they receive adequate maintenance. I only know the experience I have had with caches in my immediate area.

edit-typo

Thanks for the very well thought-out and clearly worded response!

[wdtsalindberg]

We have a scout troup here (333) that places many caches on there hikes. I have never encountered a maintenance problem with any.

 

Rather than condemn a class of people and assume that they are all alike based on one experience it seems more appropriate to deal with each as an individual.

 

I suppose if he discovered a couple of tall people were not maintaing their caches he want to put in a height limit to exculde them.

 

AMEN! I think most of you notice a bad scout listing because they are so specifically listed as scouts or troops. No one gets an account and calls themselves (tallguy1, tallguy2, etc) so other bad caches you see from other people can't get grouped into a set. Here where I am, so far the troop and 4H caches happen to be some of the better maintained ones. There are plenty having nothing to do with a troop that are in really sore condition.

 

Go by individual cases. you start to get a snobbish attitude about who is and isn't allowed to cache or place one and you start to deter others from becoming a part of this really neat opportunity to try this out. Caching is a neat way to spend time in nature, meet a whole "secret" community of people and have good, clean fun. Starting to deny this or that person or to discourage "newbies" from placing caches etc takes away from the experience.

 

We all come across crummy caches, that is part of the risk when you head out there... you also risk not finding it at all... isn't that part of what makes it fun? If you dont' want to run into a crummy cache, then read logs and be prepared for what you may find. If you think it is a badly maintained cache, then report/flag it. That is our responsibility as participants in this activity.

[wdtsalindberg]

I just don't see the BSA nor any subset thereof encouraging irresponsible caching. And I sort of resent the implication that Scouting-related caches are abandoned any more than any other subset of caches.

Well, I'm sorry that you feel at all resentful, but this thread contains much anecdotal evidence by other cachers that have independently noticed the same issues that I have. We've even heard from several that are directly involved with scouting that have agreed that the problems we are discussing are very real. Feeling resentment or defensiveness is not going to solve the problems, but discussing them openly just may lead to an awareness that leads to the necessary changes.

 

Now, I am a "newbie" and a scout leader. My scouts have placed a cache and it is being well maintained so far... but it helps that it is pretty much right under my steps in my back yard. Girlscouts doesn't have a geocaching badge unless you create one yourself. We placed it because I thought the girls would enjoy treasure hunting. of my four in my troop. two now actively geocache. (but we are all new to it)

 

So it seems like bringing my troop into the interest of geocaching has now led to an increase of participating members in caching.... that is a plus, right?

 

but with people placing something just to place it then not maintaining it, that happens with lots of people. others will move and no longer maintain, people will get sick of (hard to believe i know) caches and not maintain, people will (like I have seen recently... and i don't blame them, i am just pointing it out) deploy overseas and will be unable to maintain their caches.

 

promoting it just to earn a badge is dumb, but people will hide a cache just to do it for s&g with or without a scout troop too. so i guess it isn't that I am missing the point or not getting to the heart of it, I think it is that YOU all miss the point.

 

If you are going to single out a group of people, all other "groups" of people can also fall under the micrscope for observation and speculation also.

 

NO, not every scout group is going to maintain their cache. neither is every school group, 4H etc... but sometimes a lazy, deployed, moving, bored, whatever person won't maintain their cache either.

 

no one set of people can be singled out. creating a thread on it does single the troops and classes out.

 

Adults should know better and be active adn dedicated to maintaining a cache if they place it, but don't discourage kids from learning about this and becoming active in the sport because their leaders were dumb. just like you can't discourage others from caching just because they might not maintain their drop.

 

Maybe it is our job as responsible geocachers to educate. Maybe as a community of people out finding these hides it is our responsibility to report them, fix them etc. but just don't complain about them... it is silly

[+GeoGeeBee]

Two bullet-points later, it says "Also, be sure to MAINTAIN the caches." (Again, caps are in the original.)

 

Are they talking to the child (or the Scout leader)? Do they expect a 10 year old to maintain a cache and its listing? A "NM" gets posted....is the kid supposed to make arrangements to have someone take him out to the site with supplies to replace the cracked container and soaked logbook?

 

Again, you (and almost everyone else in this thread) is confusing two very different things:

 

1) the requirements for the geocaching merit badge. The bit you quoted has nothing to do with the badge, and placing a cache is not required to earn the badge.

 

2) the "Cache to Eagle" series, which encourages adults to place scouting-related caches. The above quote comes from the Cache to Eagle page.

 

And by the way, there are no 10-year-old Boy Scouts. (Well, maybe a few, there's a narrow exception to the age 11 minimum for becoming a Scout in the BSA, but they're only 10 for a maximum of six months after they join.) Half the "boys" in my troop shave every day and drive themselves to school. They can manage maintaining a cache.

[+GeoGeeBee]

 

NO, not every scout group is going to maintain their cache. neither is every school group, 4H etc... but sometimes a lazy, deployed, moving, bored, whatever person won't maintain their cache either.

 

 

I think this whole thread is an example of what statisticians call "observation bias."

 

I find five caches that haven't been maintained, placed by four different cachers, with no common theme; I barely notice. But if I find three caches that all have the word "Scout" somewhere on the page, I will notice that and conclude, "these scout caches don't get maintained."

 

Nothing that has been posted here shows that Scout (or other youth group) caches fall out of maintenance any more than any other caches. Given the respect for the outdoors instilled in members of the Scouting program, I would expect the opposite may be true. Of course, I have no evidence of that, either.

 

Actually, I just thought of an experiment... More to come!

[knowschad]

I just don't see the BSA nor any subset thereof encouraging irresponsible caching. And I sort of resent the implication that Scouting-related caches are abandoned any more than any other subset of caches.

Well, I'm sorry that you feel at all resentful, but this thread contains much anecdotal evidence by other cachers that have independently noticed the same issues that I have. We've even heard from several that are directly involved with scouting that have agreed that the problems we are discussing are very real. Feeling resentment or defensiveness is not going to solve the problems, but discussing them openly just may lead to an awareness that leads to the necessary changes.

 

Now, I am a "newbie" and a scout leader. My scouts have placed a cache and it is being well maintained so far... but it helps that it is pretty much right under my steps in my back yard. Girlscouts doesn't have a geocaching badge unless you create one yourself. We placed it because I thought the girls would enjoy treasure hunting. of my four in my troop. two now actively geocache. (but we are all new to it)

 

So it seems like bringing my troop into the interest of geocaching has now led to an increase of participating members in caching.... that is a plus, right?

 

but with people placing something just to place it then not maintaining it, that happens with lots of people. others will move and no longer maintain, people will get sick of (hard to believe i know) caches and not maintain, people will (like I have seen recently... and i don't blame them, i am just pointing it out) deploy overseas and will be unable to maintain their caches.

 

promoting it just to earn a badge is dumb, but people will hide a cache just to do it for s&g with or without a scout troop too. so i guess it isn't that I am missing the point or not getting to the heart of it, I think it is that YOU all miss the point.

 

If you are going to single out a group of people, all other "groups" of people can also fall under the micrscope for observation and speculation also.

 

NO, not every scout group is going to maintain their cache. neither is every school group, 4H etc... but sometimes a lazy, deployed, moving, bored, whatever person won't maintain their cache either.

 

no one set of people can be singled out. creating a thread on it does single the troops and classes out.

 

Adults should know better and be active adn dedicated to maintaining a cache if they place it, but don't discourage kids from learning about this and becoming active in the sport because their leaders were dumb. just like you can't discourage others from caching just because they might not maintain their drop.

 

Maybe it is our job as responsible geocachers to educate. Maybe as a community of people out finding these hides it is our responsibility to report them, fix them etc. but just don't complain about them... it is silly

As has already been said numerous times in this thread... Yes, this is a generalization. But it is one that many of us have encountered. Of COURSE there are other caches hidden by fly-by-night cachers. Not much we can do to identify them until after the fact, I guess. But all too many of us, including some scout masters, have noticed maintenance problems with scout caches, and the reason seems to be the transitory nature of scouts, and for that matter, of people in that age group. Their interests peak and wane in a matter of months. That is their nature. That seems to be encouraged by the desire to earn merit badges by hiding a cache, and furthermore (possibly) by the wording of the literature.

 

Once again, I would ask those that feel attacked by this thread to instead see it as a discussion of an apparent problem and an opportunity to discuss how the situation can be improved, rather than defending the status quo. Scouting is NOT a bad thing, nor is it inherently bad to geocaching. But if scouting is going to get involved in geocaching, there are some considerations that need to be looked at that apparently are not getting their due.

[knowschad]

 

NO, not every scout group is going to maintain their cache. neither is every school group, 4H etc... but sometimes a lazy, deployed, moving, bored, whatever person won't maintain their cache either.

 

 

I think this whole thread is an example of what statisticians call "observation bias."

 

I find five caches that haven't been maintained, placed by four different cachers, with no common theme; I barely notice. But if I find three caches that all have the word "Scout" somewhere on the page, I will notice that and conclude, "these scout caches don't get maintained."

 

Nothing that has been posted here shows that Scout (or other youth group) caches fall out of maintenance any more than any other caches. Given the respect for the outdoors instilled in members of the Scouting program, I would expect the opposite may be true. Of course, I have no evidence of that, either.

 

Actually, I just thought of an experiment... More to come!

 

This is not a scientific study. We are NOT attacking you. We are NOT attacking scouting. I wish that you would stop tearing your hair out about this and realize that there is a basic issue with the way that geocaching is being promoted in scouting and that the problems can be resolved, but only if they are seen for what they are.

 

Please do not take this in the wrong way... but you have only logged online fewer than 80 caches (perhaps you don't log online... I have no way of knowing that). But if that number is accurate, then you may well have a different perception of the situation than some of us that have several times that number of caches. I, and many others that have posted here, have found what we believe to be a pattern that seems to be related to many caches hidden by scouting groups. It has been repeated here many times that it is not the scouts themselves that are the problem, so I sure wish that you would relax your defensive posture a bit.

[mac367]

Hi all, short time cacher, about 9 months, Assistant Scoutmaster about 5 years. As stated a few times, sometimes the adults will be real excited about something and the boys not so much. Now that BSA is adding the merit badge it might create a few more long term cachers that will "do the right thing" by caching, but some will earn the badge and move on, hopefully not abandoning the cache, but I have to agree the possibility exists. The 30 day requirement for the badge is in line with other merit badge's requirements, with the exceptions being the 90 day ones for certain "Eagle Required" badges like Personal Fitness, Family Life and Personal Finance. The merit badge program as a whole is not designed to make the boys into experts in any particular subject, but to introduce them to things they might not have considered. Sometimes that leads to career ideas or long term hobbies, but many times just the accomplishment and the badge. That is why there are over 120 badges available but only 21 required for Eagle Scout, with only 12 of those "Eage Required." Back to the 30 day thing for a moment. One peeve of many involved in Scouting are the gray areas BSA allows to exist on subjects like this. For example I am a counselor for both Fishing and Fly Fishing. One of the requirements for both is to catch 2 species of fish and "release at least one of them unharmed. Clean and cook another fish." Not clean and cook the other fish, another fish. Theoretically a s scout can catch a bass and a blue gill, release both of them, go to the fish market, buy a whole fish, clean and cook that one to fulfill the requirement. Oh well. Still a great program with lots to offer. Just remember to treat scout caches no differently than others. Some will be good some will be bad, some will get maintained, others not. Happy caching.

[+brslk]

Two bullet-points later, it says "Also, be sure to MAINTAIN the caches." (Again, caps are in the original.)

 

Are they talking to the child (or the Scout leader)? Do they expect a 10 year old to maintain a cache and its listing? A "NM" gets posted....is the kid supposed to make arrangements to have someone take him out to the site with supplies to replace the cracked container and soaked logbook?

 

Again, you (and almost everyone else in this thread) is confusing two very different things:

 

1) the requirements for the geocaching merit badge. The bit you quoted has nothing to do with the badge, and placing a cache is not required to earn the badge.

 

2) the "Cache to Eagle" series, which encourages adults to place scouting-related caches. The above quote comes from the Cache to Eagle page.

 

And by the way, there are no 10-year-old Boy Scouts. (Well, maybe a few, there's a narrow exception to the age 11 minimum for becoming a Scout in the BSA, but they're only 10 for a maximum of six months after they join.) Half the "boys" in my troop shave every day and drive themselves to school. They can manage maintaining a cache.

 

Really? because half of the boys in your troop can drive and shave makes them responsible? is that really what you are saying? do you not remember being 16 at all?

 

What a teenage boy can do and should do are vastly different from what they will do.

Edited March 31, 2010 by brslk

[+BulldogBlitz]

i'm pleased to see this thread. i've thought for the longest, those VILE, EVIL Scouts.... how dare they put a film can out in the woods and not come back 3 to 4 years later to make sure the log is still viable.

 

while we are lambasting groups.... can i take a moment to blast the scourge of geocaching.... the retired.

 

[knowschad]

i'm pleased to see this thread. i've thought for the longest, those VILE, EVIL Scouts.... how dare they put a film can out in the woods and not come back 3 to 4 years later to make sure the log is still viable.

while we are lambasting groups.... can i take a moment to blast the scourge of geocaching.... the retired.

If you've read the thread carefully, it should be clear to you that this is not at all about lambasting a group. In fact, we have heard from many in scouting that have acknowleged the problems that arise from having scouts and other youth groups hide caches. There are inherent problems with it that are discussed in the posts preceeding this. It is those problems that this thread is discussing.

[+captnkirk17]

I teach geocaching merit badge, I encourage my scouts to go for one of the other optional requirments in #8 like releasing a scouting realated trackable and monitoring it for 30 days instead of hiding a cache.

 

I even have a slide entitled "what not to do when hiding a geocache" where I discuss two actual geocaching merit badge hides I have searched for. Placed on private property, published before the cache was in place, giving away your real name and address online, wrong ratings, wrong icons, etc., it was amazing they made just about every mistake you can make between just two hides.

 

P.S. If you would like a copy of my Geocaching merit badge Powerpoint slides just email me and ask.

Edited August 6, 2011 by captnkirk17

[knowschad]

I teach geocaching merit badge, I encourage my scouts to go for one of the other optional requirments in #8 like releasing a scouting realated trackable and monitoring it for 30 days instead of hiding a cache.

 

I even have a slide entitled "what not to do when hiding a geocache" where I discuss two actual geocaching merit badge hides I have searched for. Placed on private property, published before the cache was in place, giving away your real name and address online, wrong ratings, wrong icons, etc., it was amazing they made just about every mistake you can make between just two hides.

 

P.S. If you would like a copy of my Geocaching merit badge Powerpoint slides just email me and ask.

 

That is very commendable that you focus on owning and watching a trackable rather than owning and hiding a cache, and thanks a bunch for that offer of your Powerpoint presentation!

[+AmphibianTrackers]

Scout cache, like "school class project" caches, have a poor maintenance record in Texas. Once it's placed and monitored for a while, interest is lost and they've moved on to other things.

 

In my short time caching this has been my experience. The class caches, the scout caches (girl scouts, too) and even string of "teaching" caches have all been abandoned. Furthermore, the children know where the caches are and without adults to help them participate appropriately it all just gets messed up.

 

I am holding an event for my church youth and families and we will have 9 caches but they will just be a scavenger hunt and then picked up, not logged onto GC.

[+AmphibianTrackers]

I teach geocaching merit badge, I encourage my scouts to go for one of the other optional requirments in #8 like releasing a scouting realated trackable and monitoring it for 30 days instead of hiding a cache.

 

I even have a slide entitled "what not to do when hiding a geocache" where I discuss two actual geocaching merit badge hides I have searched for. Placed on private property, published before the cache was in place, giving away your real name and address online, wrong ratings, wrong icons, etc., it was amazing they made just about every mistake you can make between just two hides.

 

P.S. If you would like a copy of my Geocaching merit badge Powerpoint slides just email me and ask.

 

That is awesome! I picked up a BS TB today. Sounds like you are a wonderful leader!

[+Coldgears]

Every single Troop Cache near me says that they will remove it in 6 months. I hate having to rush, but sometimes I just have to go. One nearby Boy Scout cache is nearing the end of 6 months. Have to drive 12 miles to get it before it goes away forever.

[knowschad]

Every single Troop Cache near me says that they will remove it in 6 months. I hate having to rush, but sometimes I just have to go. One nearby Boy Scout cache is nearing the end of 6 months. Have to drive 12 miles to get it before it goes away forever.

You should check up on them to make sure they actually removed the container, and not simply archived the cache. It is so sad to have to say that sort of thing specifically about Scout caches, which should be exemplary, but sadly, that is the exception, not the rule.

[+sword fern]

One more point, all of the troop caches vie found are ammo cans.

[+grand-moff]

I have not read all this thread but i would like to say I am a scout leader and I have taken not only my troop but our cub pack and beaver colony out caching quite a few times. All sections seem to love it. I decided last year to hide a few for the group (all under my name as I haven't set up a group account yet) and so far so good. I think geocaching adds a new spin on traditional mapping ( which we still do and often plot where the cache was on an OS map)

 

Please see links for our group caches.

 

The 159th First Hide

 

The 159th Huish Adventure

 

The 159th Beavers First Hide

[+dbrierley]

A bookmark list of Scouting-related caches in southern New England:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/bookmarks/view.aspx?guid=3284ec97-6e83-4a1c-8749-35ac6136a333

[knowschad]

I have not read all this thread but i would like to say I am a scout leader and I have taken not only my troop but our cub pack and beaver colony out caching quite a few times. All sections seem to love it. I decided last year to hide a few for the group (all under my name as I haven't set up a group account yet) and so far so good. I think geocaching adds a new spin on traditional mapping ( which we still do and often plot where the cache was on an OS map)

 

Please see links for our group caches.

 

The 159th First Hide

 

The 159th Huish Adventure

 

The 159th Beavers First Hide

 

The jist of the thread, I think, is that there is nothing wrong with that, as long as YOU keep an interest and YOU make certain the necessary maintenance is done. That problems seem to arise when that is left up to the troop members themselves. Few of them keep an interest in geocaching for very long.

[+Vater_Araignee]

Cub Scout caches are different from Boy Scout caches are different from Eagle Scout caches.

The problem is leadership almost never stays the same. The maximum time a leader (any type) stays in a pack is 4 years 5 if the pack has Tiger Cubs. Adult involvement is 5 to 6 years.

If the Leaders neglect to inform the up and coming leadership then the cache is forgotten.

Think about it, new leadership doesn't know and can't be blamed and the kids believe that the cache belongs to the pack so have no stock once the become Boy Scouts.

 

I don't think that the opportunity should be taken away from them.

BSA needs to come up with pack and troop naming conventions for use on online sites.

Make it "Basic information" so that it is passed along.

Require all pack/troupe hides to be archived after one year.

Maybe GS could even approach BSA and work with them.

[+Markwell]

The maximum time a leader (any type) stays in a pack is 4 years 5 if the pack has Tiger Cubs. Adult involvement is 5 to 6 years.

Cubmaster, Pack 13 from 2003 to 2011, still Pack Trainer. You're forgetting multiple boys in the family and a desire to make sure that the program continues. I will say that adult leadership is 99% renewed after 6 years though. But I've seen that there's always that one outlying member that is there for a LONG time.

[+Vater_Araignee]

The maximum time a leader (any type) stays in a pack is 4 years 5 if the pack has Tiger Cubs. Adult involvement is 5 to 6 years.

Cubmaster, Pack 13 from 2003 to 2011, still Pack Trainer. You're forgetting multiple boys in the family and a desire to make sure that the program continues. I will say that adult leadership is 99% renewed after 6 years though. But I've seen that there's always that one outlying member that is there for a LONG time.

Yes I did neglect that small portion, but it isn't the norm.

Unless those rare long term members are activity teaching about caching then they will effect nothing like like a set curriculum would.

Fortunately the popularity of ScoutTrack.com is going to start a tradition of passing access id and passwords through the leadership and I see no reason why geocaching cant be the same.

Using geocaching to help teach stewardship is reason 3 or 4 why next year I done the uniform.

[+farrtom]

I am a scout leader and have taken the boys out caching a few times.

I also have a scout themed cache that my son and I hid but hasn't been visited very often. After reading this thread I wonder if people think it was hid by a troop not by and individual.

[+popokiiti]

The scout caches near us seem to be fine - the CO is an active cacher and scout leader. It would appear that the scouts place the cache, get the coords and write the description and hint, but he remains responsible for each cache placed.

[+Fianccetto]

 

(The thing in the middle is the log - side view to show it is soaking wet and retaining the water.)

 

This is one of the semi-local scout caches we have in our area. There are 5 local ones listed by the same scout group, and they have one 30 odd miles away. The lack of maintenance seemed to start from day one, as they are in those take away boxes which crack easily and even when not broken, they let the rain in. They were placed 3 years ago.

 

As well as the maintenance issue, I found it hard to know where to park for these caches. They are pretty much in a ring and would make a great walk, but there is no information on the cache page. I think it would be a great project for scouts to look at good parking spots and footpaths to their caches, suggestions of how to get from one to another on the cache pages, with maybe a hand drawn map, to clarify any misunderstandings. This would have stopped us from trespassing on private land while trying to follow the parking and vague instructions on another one of their caches.

 

I agree that geocaching is a great activity for scouts, but also their caches should be exemplary for what is good about geocaching, not what is bad about it.

 

So I have placed a Needs Maintenance log on the above cache. Is there any more I can do? I would be happy to work with them to improve things - provide appropriate containers, if they replace the contents and then maintain them; I'd research the area and draw up a map with suggested parking etc. (or even go in as a guest to help the scout group out with it all). How else can you turn these around? They are in good locations, as is reflected by the logs and the fact that some have been on the brink of being archived but the local geocaching population has not posted NA logs. I guess we all want scouts learning about geocaching, but not like this!

Edited August 14, 2011 by Fianccetto

[+PsychoPhil]

I've been reading this thread off and on for the past couple of weeks. The tone generally seems overwhelming negative and, unless I missed it, seems to be missing a very large positive... new people brought into the game as a result of this merit badge.

 

My son earned the geocaching badge at summer camp this year. We did the prerequisites together in the weeks leading up to him leaving for camp. As a result we both are now searching out caches on a regular basis. Many times the rest of the family comes along as well. We just got back from a vacation were we all spent some time hunting for caches.

 

I don't get the negatives being placed on scout caches. We have a very small number of finds (31 currently) but to be honest, a majority of those were pretty much junk caches that are wet/busted/empty and not maintained. We've found maybe 6-7 good caches (one of which just happened to be a three year old cub scout pack cache). Anyone at anytime can stop maintaining caches for pretty much any reason. To single out scouting seems a bit ridiculous.

[+Shebaz Jenkins]

I was reading this whole thread as well and have to agree with pgarrett.

 

While, the resulting cache may not be in the greatest shape and to be honest, maybe not even in the interest of the scout leader that placed it, it still brings new players to the game and exposes more people to the experience.

 

I can only think that these activities have positives that far out weigh the negatives. They get outside, it teaches navigation skills, determination, team work etc.

 

I do think that the better option for scout troops would be to locate caches as a group rather then hide one. Another option would be to hide one for the next years group to find. They would search for some and then create a cache (not posted on the site) that the next years group could locate. Almost like a time capsule. Another option would be for the scout troop in the area to create and hide a cache for the beavers and cubs (younger ages) to find. The leader could then remove it from the location after or post it if they are an avid player and wanted to do so.

 

Either way, it is up to the players in the area to attempt to educate the leaders of their city and get involved if possible. Make yourself available to the troop to demo and setup the activity. I loved progressing through scouts as a kid and each week we had a different speaker/presenter showing us a new skill or activity. We have the ability to make this experience more memorable and positive.

 

My small opinion and I guess a preach but I think Scouts are very rewarding and would look for ways to better their experience and educate instead of looking for solutions after the fact.

[+John in Valley Forge]

 

I don't get the negatives being placed on scout caches. We have a very small number of finds (31 currently) but to be honest, a majority of those were pretty much junk caches that are wet/busted/empty and not maintained. We've found maybe 6-7 good caches (one of which just happened to be a three year old cub scout pack cache). Anyone at anytime can stop maintaining caches for pretty much any reason. To single out scouting seems a bit ridiculous.

 

I suspect that it is because they can be labeled, much like smart-phone users can be "labeled". I have no way of knowing if caches placed by scouts are any better or worse than any other caches.

I especially don't know how they compare to caches placed by non-scout kids. I've found no scout related caches, but I've found plenty of crappy caches placed by grade school kids.

 

 

 

[+frogcooke]

There is a whole series of scout caches in my area(all labeled with eagle scout in the titles). I've only gotten to two of them. One was in the parking lot right next to a scout building. That one seemed to do fine and we even brought in a card to the scout place after finding it.

 

Another one we found on a rail trail near water, is less than good condition. It seem there are several notes going back a bit about it being damp. Our last check the beginning of the month found there is mold growing on some hats in the box. Everything is still damp and gross. Its a nice box too and its chained to a tree i think. But it DEF needs to be cleaned out and redone.

 

I think if they are maintained, its fine. I dont know the condition of the rest of the ones in the area, but at least one needs to be cleaned up.

Edited August 16, 2011 by frogcooke

[knowschad]

I was reading this whole thread as well and have to agree with pgarrett.

 

While, the resulting cache may not be in the greatest shape and to be honest, maybe not even in the interest of the scout leader that placed it, it still brings new players to the game and exposes more people to the experience.

New players can come to the game without hiding caches that they don't have a plan or means to maintain.

 

Also... what is so important about bringing new people into geocaching anyway? Those that are curious enough will seek it out on their own, and will probably be much more dedicated to it than somebody that had it handed to them.

[knowschad]

I've been reading this thread off and on for the past couple of weeks. The tone generally seems overwhelming negative and, unless I missed it, seems to be missing a very large positive... new people brought into the game as a result of this merit badge.

 

My son earned the geocaching badge at summer camp this year. We did the prerequisites together in the weeks leading up to him leaving for camp. As a result we both are now searching out caches on a regular basis. Many times the rest of the family comes along as well. We just got back from a vacation were we all spent some time hunting for caches.

 

I don't get the negatives being placed on scout caches. We have a very small number of finds (31 currently) but to be honest, a majority of those were pretty much junk caches that are wet/busted/empty and not maintained. We've found maybe 6-7 good caches (one of which just happened to be a three year old cub scout pack cache). Anyone at anytime can stop maintaining caches for pretty much any reason. To single out scouting seems a bit ridiculous.

You are absolutely right about that, of course. Scouting is being singled out because many of us have seen a pattern in that area. You will probably see that pattern as well, as your experience increases. There are exceptions to the "rule", but that "rule" was created by perception.

[Mr.Yuck]

I teach geocaching merit badge, I encourage my scouts to go for one of the other optional requirments in #8 like releasing a scouting realated trackable and monitoring it for 30 days instead of hiding a cache.

 

I even have a slide entitled "what not to do when hiding a geocache" where I discuss two actual geocaching merit badge hides I have searched for. Placed on private property, published before the cache was in place, giving away your real name and address online, wrong ratings, wrong icons, etc., it was amazing they made just about every mistake you can make between just two hides.

 

P.S. If you would like a copy of my Geocaching merit badge Powerpoint slides just email me and ask.

 

My very soon to be 12 yr. old is a Scout. I am not a leader, but yes, it doesn't get stressed enough that hiding a Geocache is an OPTION. The scouts can release a TB, and meet the requirements for the badge no problemo.

 

I was reading this whole thread as well and have to agree with pgarrett.

 

While, the resulting cache may not be in the greatest shape and to be honest, maybe not even in the interest of the scout leader that placed it, it still brings new players to the game and exposes more people to the experience.

New players can come to the game without hiding caches that they don't have a plan or means to maintain.

 

Also... what is so important about bringing new people into geocaching anyway? Those that are curious enough will seek it out on their own, and will probably be much more dedicated to it than somebody that had it handed to them.

 

Pretty well put by Knowschad. Believe me guys, the "bringing new people to the game" angle usually doesn't go over too well around here.

[+niraD]

Anyone at anytime can stop maintaining caches for pretty much any reason.

Yes. But people who choose to hide a cache because they are interested in maintaining it long term have historically done a better job than people who choose to hide a cache for some other reason. That is why Groundspeak doesn't allow challenges that require people to hide caches, and why they don't allow "curse of the FTF" caches and "breeder" caches that require people to hide caches.

 

Unfortunately, they can't do anything about a BSA merit badge that requires scouts to hide a geocache and list it at geocaching.com.

[+Fianccetto]

I've got absolutely no problem with scouts looking for geocaches and learning about coordinates, how to use a GPS, a map, and other skills. I really want to encourage that, learning how to read a map and to navigate in various ways is one of the things that makes scouting so great. It's expected. It's pretty much a standard right!

 

It is the hiding of poor cache containers and not maintaining them when the log book and swaps that people leave are getting damaged I object to. We don't have any rights to hide geocaches, just permission. If it is done badly by a significant number of people and draws attention of certain landowners, some of those permissions would be withdrawn, or refused in future! Bring more people into the game to hide more Chinese takeaway boxes and not making sure the contents are staying dry? No, please don't. This is why it is a concern if representatives of the Scouting movement in particular are doing a remarkably bad job of maintaining caches: they are passing their bad habits on to the next generation.

 

I am sure most Scout leaders around where we are know far more about map reading (and certainly where the good places to put geocaches are) than I do. Generally the coordinates are spot on as well. But that is not the only thing to consider when setting a cache. It needs a container that will stay dry inside (like a lock and lock) instead of something with no seal made of brittle plastic that will crack the first time it's dropped or even squeezed. I have a ton of great sew on Brownie/Guide and Scout badges I have bought for my children & collected over the years from family (some from my Dad's scouting days during WWII - while his brother was a navigator in Mosquitoes - you bet they could read a map when they were scouts!) I'd be all too happy to drop some in a Scout's dry geocache with a cheery log or note. If the cache I had found had been a lock and lock and had just got rain inside, I would have dried it out & traded the mouldy items for nice clean ones without even mentioning it unless someone else complained. If a good lock & lock is damaged, I might even replace it for a new one. But not when the container they use leaves the contents open to the elements.

 

If you don't want to replace the log often, a small Rite in the Rain log, or similar waterproof paper is better than a large log book made of ordinary paper that won't dry out if someone signs the log in the rain or water gets in some other way. Be prepared to keep an eye on the cache listing to monitor people's finds and see if it gets damaged or goes missing (or TBs in it go missing) and physically visit the cache and sort out any problems. If it is 30 miles from home, visit it when you are near the area even if there are no problems! (If you don't intend to visit it when you are in the area, don't hide one so far from home! Alternatively, hide it temporarily for the camp/training but don't have it listed on the geocaching.com site so TBs don't get lost. Other people's property gets put in geocaches, so respect the cache like your mother's handbag! )

 

Both my girls are scouts (yes, scouts in the green shirts and neckers, not Guides or girl scouts) precisely because scouts have more fun and spend less time talking about nail varnish and boys and do more outdoor activities! I don't want to take anything away from scouts, and I do appreciate that this is a small part of all the great things they do, but it won't take much more to do it really well, so why the reluctance to do something properly?

Edited August 16, 2011 by Fianccetto

[+Shebaz Jenkins]

I was reading this whole thread as well and have to agree with pgarrett.

 

While, the resulting cache may not be in the greatest shape and to be honest, maybe not even in the interest of the scout leader that placed it, it still brings new players to the game and exposes more people to the experience.

New players can come to the game without hiding caches that they don't have a plan or means to maintain.

 

Also... what is so important about bringing new people into geocaching anyway? Those that are curious enough will seek it out on their own, and will probably be much more dedicated to it than somebody that had it handed to them.

 

I am not disputing that it is wrong to place a cache with no intentions of maintaining. I would like to these maintained as well. If you quoted the rest of my post, it said that we also have the ability to seek out the leaders and educate them or offer our knowledge to help them demo proper techniques and procedures.

 

As for the second point, why wouldn't you want to bring new players to the game. New players are what keeps the game going for years and years instead of a short period of time. If we didn't introduce kids to soccer at age 5, soccer would eventually fade out. Besides, my point was that it exposes the game to new participants and shows geocaching as an option.. I for one can attest, I had zero interest in the game until a coworked said to come with him one day. Now I am hooked.

[knowschad]

I was reading this whole thread as well and have to agree with pgarrett.

 

While, the resulting cache may not be in the greatest shape and to be honest, maybe not even in the interest of the scout leader that placed it, it still brings new players to the game and exposes more people to the experience.

New players can come to the game without hiding caches that they don't have a plan or means to maintain.

 

Also... what is so important about bringing new people into geocaching anyway? Those that are curious enough will seek it out on their own, and will probably be much more dedicated to it than somebody that had it handed to them.

 

I am not disputing that it is wrong to place a cache with no intentions of maintaining. I would like to these maintained as well. If you quoted the rest of my post, it said that we also have the ability to seek out the leaders and educate them or offer our knowledge to help them demo proper techniques and procedures.

 

As for the second point, why wouldn't you want to bring new players to the game. New players are what keeps the game going for years and years instead of a short period of time. If we didn't introduce kids to soccer at age 5, soccer would eventually fade out. Besides, my point was that it exposes the game to new participants and shows geocaching as an option.. I for one can attest, I had zero interest in the game until a coworked said to come with him one day. Now I am hooked.

 

Sorry, I quoted your post because the first paragraph echoed the sentiments of the preceeding post. As for educating the scout leaders... you can't do that if they don't ask for help. But moreover, the biggest problem seems to be in the turnover time for scout leaters. Many of them don't stick around much longer than the kids do. All the education many of us had came right from this website.

 

I do not feel the need to prosthelytize geocaching. There will be plenty that learn about it and decide to persue it all by themselves without salesmen running around asking them to participate. Those that have to be spoonfed into geocaching are typically the ones that won't be doing it for long anyway. Until Geocaching, the compay, goes public and I own shares of their stock, at any rate.

[+Fianccetto]

 

I do not feel the need to prosthelytize geocaching. There will be plenty that learn about it and decide to persue it all by themselves without salesmen running around asking them to participate. Those that have to be spoonfed into geocaching are typically the ones that won't be doing it for long anyway. Until Geocaching, the company, goes public and I own shares of their stock, at any rate.

 

Good points there.

[+L0ne.R]

As for the second point, why wouldn't you want to bring new players to the game. New players are what keeps the game going for years and years instead of a short period of time. If we didn't introduce kids to soccer at age 5, soccer would eventually fade out. Besides, my point was that it exposes the game to new participants and shows geocaching as an option.. I for one can attest, I had zero interest in the game until a coworked said to come with him one day. Now I am hooked.

 

Right, you were a finder not a hider. New finders are coming into the game all the time, especially now that geocaching apps are available to anyone with a smartphone. I don't think we have to worry about this past time fading out. I've seen exponential growth since starting in 2001.

 

If anything maybe we need to curtail things a bit and focus on quality over quantity. Emphasize commitment, investment and responsibility on the part of cache owners. I personally prefer long-term adult-owned cache owners that have been around, played the game, have the means to create good quality caches and maintain them for years.

[+yoyoteacher]

I haven't come across too many scout caches, but I have seen a trackable or two which I thought was very neat. I am a lifetime member of GSUSA, and know many people who work within my local council. Because we cover a large area, they offer two geocaching 101 type events for the girls, one on each side of the state. I've discussed helping teach a third in my local area (it's about a 4 hour drive from here to either of the events; I feel that the drive will discourage girls and leaders from going to something they may be interested in...4 hours for a 2 hour event? And then 4 hours back?). The discussions I've had with both facilitators show me that it's more about learning how to use a GPS, how to read coordinates, and then at the end an actual cache that is nearby the meeting area is found to give the girls a true experience.

 

That all being said, Girl Scouts is releasing their new badge system in September. This includes a letterboxing badge for girls in 2nd and 3rd grade, and a geocaching badge for girls in 4th and 5th grade. No idea what these will entail; the general set up of all badges in the new system is a 5 step method with three or four options at each step. I'm hoping that those steps either don't include hiding or, if they do, include some kind of maintenance clause. I'll have to go and purchase these particular badge bundles to see what all is involved for future reference

[The_Hypnotoad]

As a cub scout leader myself, I've been contemplating placing a cache myself, but I can see how these caches can fall between the cracks. For me, there's a lot of pressure to come up with fun and interesting activities. I want the scouts to come back every week, and if they aren't having fun, they won't. If the boys lose interest in caching, then I can see the cache failing. Ultimately, it falls on the adults, not the kids. If the kids don't want to do it, the cache still needs to be maintained or archived in my opinion.

 

I think we should have a better attitude about scout caches. I also believe the geocaching merit badge is here to stay. Education is the key. When it comes down to it, the people that are responsible for educating these boy scouts doing the merit badge are our own. Merit badge counselors should also be geocachers. Some of us, including myself, should step up to the plate and become merit badge counselors. So that we can teach the correct way to geocache.

[+PsychoPhil]

Unfortunately, they can't do anything about a BSA merit badge that requires scouts to hide a geocache and list it at geocaching.com.

 

I believe it's been mentioned before in this thread but I'll mention it again. The Bout Scout Geocaching merit badge does not require that the Scout hide a cache.

 

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Geocaching

 

Checking section 8 you'll see that the scout must do one of four requirements. Placing a cache is one of these but is not a mandatory requirement for the badge. We've never had a scout chose to do 8a (Cache to Eagle... none in our area) or 8c (hide a public cache). Scouts usually pick 8b (tracking bug) and we've had a few choose 8d (CITO).

 

However, if a scout was to choose 8c they would have to submit a 6 month maintenance plan which, as referred to by requirements 2b and 2c, would include the dismantling and removal of the cache after those 6 months.

[+niraD]

Unfortunately, they can't do anything about a BSA merit badge that requires scouts to hide a geocache and list it at geocaching.com.

I believe it's been mentioned before in this thread but I'll mention it again. The Bout Scout Geocaching merit badge does not require that the Scout hide a cache.

 

http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Geocaching

 

Checking section 8 you'll see that the scout must do one of four requirements. Placing a cache is one of these but is not a mandatory requirement for the badge. We've never had a scout chose to do 8a (Cache to Eagle... none in our area) or 8c (hide a public cache). Scouts usually pick 8b (tracking bug) and we've had a few choose 8d (CITO).

 

However, if a scout was to choose 8c they would have to submit a 6 month maintenance plan which, as referred to by requirements 2b and 2c, would include the dismantling and removal of the cache after those 6 months.

Yes, hiding a geocache is one of several options. And it's good to hear that the scouts you've worked with have chosen other options, rather than hiding a cache. Unfortunately, I let the word "requires" distract from my point.

 

My main point is that the requirements for the merit badge may encourage scouts to hide caches before they're really ready to maintain them long term.

[+Hypnopaedia]

I was reading this whole thread as well and have to agree with pgarrett.

 

While, the resulting cache may not be in the greatest shape and to be honest, maybe not even in the interest of the scout leader that placed it, it still brings new players to the game and exposes more people to the experience.

New players can come to the game without hiding caches that they don't have a plan or means to maintain.

 

Also... what is so important about bringing new people into geocaching anyway? Those that are curious enough will seek it out on their own, and will probably be much more dedicated to it than somebody that had it handed to them.

 

I so agree with you. The way I got into Geocaching was that I randomly found a cache (Actually turned out to be a letterbox when I went back to find it) during a long hike in one of our Regional "parks". I had never heard of it before and when I got home and did some research I was hooked. Used my Palm phone for awhile and found my first 300 finds with it. The rest is history. I am always excited when someone gets that gleam in their eye realizing these things are right under their noses every day. I don't believe seeking out people is a good idea, let them come in on their own terms.

 

As for Scout caches I do believe they have a higher chance of being left unmaintained, but I don't know what the solution is.

[+L0ne.R]

Unfortunately, they can't do anything about a BSA merit badge that requires scouts to hide a geocache and list it at geocaching.com.

 

I believe it's been mentioned before in this thread but I'll mention it again. The Bout Scout Geocaching merit badge does not require that the Scout hide a cache.

 

http://meritbadge.or....php/Geocaching

 

Checking section 8 you'll see that the scout must do one of four requirements. Placing a cache is one of these but is not a mandatory requirement for the badge. We've never had a scout chose to do 8a (Cache to Eagle... none in our area) or 8c (hide a public cache). Scouts usually pick 8b (tracking bug) and we've had a few choose 8d (CITO).

 

However, if a scout was to choose 8c they would have to submit a 6 month maintenance plan which, as referred to by requirements 2b and 2c, would include the dismantling and removal of the cache after those 6 months.

 

Why have the hiding-a-cache option at all?

 

I agree with NiraD that the BSA encourages children to hide caches. BSA should also be aware that the Terms of Use for the geocaching site says:

By using the Site, you represent and warrant that you are 18 years of age or older. If we believe that you are under 18 years of age, please be advised that your account may be terminated without warning.

[+Vater_Araignee]

here is a positive for scout caches around me.

If I exclude micros (I haven't found a micro scout cache) an consider the maintenance to be average on all the small on up caches then on a scale of 0-10 the scout caches range between 5 and 7. So that is average to above average. This could be simply due to age of the cache when I found them but one was at least 2 years old and it is the one I give a 7 to.

Now if I add micros into the equation and re average the average then scout caches have to be 7-9.

 

If a person starts judging exclusively from the condition of the log then scout caches are insignificant compared to the scourge that is the Ron Popeil of geocaching called the micro. "Just set it and forget it!"

 

OK time to add to the geocaching lexicon. Ronco = micro

[Dinoprophet]

It seems to me the scouts are, at least on paper, doing far more to encourage understanding of the game and its methods than any other shmoe who comes here is going to hear. Read the rules, write out a maintenance plan. If we all had to do that, there'd be a monthly "Rules are killing geocaching" thread about it.

 

As a scout leader, I'm a little offended by the implication in this thread that scouts and their leaders require more education in this activity than everyone else does.

 

It's also worth mentioning that Boy Scouts begins in sixth grade, age 11 or 12, potential rare cases of 10 years. So this isn't encouraging 7 year olds to hide caches.