Scout Troup Caches

[+k_2]

Newbie here - I'm not sure I understand the desire for ALL caches to be permanent?

 

Permanent as defined by the Geocaching.com Listing Guidelines = 3 months ;-). And that's a reasonable goal for Scout owned caches. A season, and then they can be pulled and the listing archived. No problem.

 

But many group placed caches are just abandoned, and often immediately after publication. Nobody home. This is true of boy and girl scouts, class projects, 4-H...

 

Gotcha. 3 months = permanent. Not exactly the common definition.

[+edscott]

Newbie here - I'm not sure I understand the desire for ALL caches to be permanent?

 

Permanent as defined by the Geocaching.com Listing Guidelines = 3 months ;-). And that's a reasonable goal for Scout owned caches. A season, and then they can be pulled and the listing archived. No problem.

 

But many group placed caches are just abandoned, and often immediately after publication. Nobody home. This is true of boy and girl scouts, class projects, 4-H...

 

It is also true of lots of new cachers. What makes youth groups your specific target?

[knowschad]

Newbie here - I'm not sure I understand the desire for ALL caches to be permanent?

Permanent as defined by the Geocaching.com Listing Guidelines = 3 months ;-). And that's a reasonable goal for Scout owned caches. A season, and then they can be pulled and the listing archived. No problem.

But many group placed caches are just abandoned, and often immediately after publication. Nobody home. This is true of boy and girl scouts, class projects, 4-H...

It is also true of lots of new cachers. What makes youth groups your specific target?

That has been explained several times up above, Ed.

First of all, we don't make policy here. We just discuss issues. That's all that is going on here, so relax. Second, sure bad caches are put out all the time. Short term cachers sign up, hide a cache, then leave. We know that. But we don't have any way to identify those people. We have, however, found that there is frequently a lack of skill in hiding, and a definite lack of maintenance common to group caches, of which I perhaps unfortunately called "scout caches" in the subject and OP.

 

The problem here is the annual (or less) rotation of the members of the group, along with the basic motive for hiding the cache in the first place. That motive is generally to get a merit badge or get a grade. Those rewards come from the merit badge or grade that resulted from placing the cache, not from the cache itself and the responsibilities that come from maintaining it. The short-term reward is collected, and the cache is forgotten about.

Edited February 9, 2010 by knowschad

[+edscott]

Newbie here - I'm not sure I understand the desire for ALL caches to be permanent?

Permanent as defined by the Geocaching.com Listing Guidelines = 3 months ;-). And that's a reasonable goal for Scout owned caches. A season, and then they can be pulled and the listing archived. No problem.

But many group placed caches are just abandoned, and often immediately after publication. Nobody home. This is true of boy and girl scouts, class projects, 4-H...

It is also true of lots of new cachers. What makes youth groups your specific target?

That has been explained several times up above, Ed.

First of all, we don't make policy here. We just discuss issues. That's all that is going on here, so relax. Second, sure bad caches are put out all the time. Short term cachers sign up, hide a cache, then leave. We know that. But we don't have any way to identify those people. We have, however, found that there is frequently a lack of skill in hiding, and a definite lack of maintenance common to group caches, of which I perhaps unfortunately called "scout caches" in the subject and OP.

 

The problem here is the annual (or less) rotation of the members of the group, along with the basic motive for hiding the cache in the first place. That motive is generally to get a merit badge or get a grade. Those rewards come from the merit badge or grade that resulted from placing the cache, not from the cache itself and the responsibilities that come from maintaining it. The short-term reward is collected, and the cache is forgotten about.

 

Geez... I can identify them easily. Look at the cache page. The owner is listed. Education is the key not a witch hunt. There is a way to weed them out.. use the SBA option.

Edited February 9, 2010 by edscott

[knowschad]

Newbie here - I'm not sure I understand the desire for ALL caches to be permanent?

Permanent as defined by the Geocaching.com Listing Guidelines = 3 months ;-). And that's a reasonable goal for Scout owned caches. A season, and then they can be pulled and the listing archived. No problem.

But many group placed caches are just abandoned, and often immediately after publication. Nobody home. This is true of boy and girl scouts, class projects, 4-H...

It is also true of lots of new cachers. What makes youth groups your specific target?

That has been explained several times up above, Ed.

First of all, we don't make policy here. We just discuss issues. That's all that is going on here, so relax. Second, sure bad caches are put out all the time. Short term cachers sign up, hide a cache, then leave. We know that. But we don't have any way to identify those people. We have, however, found that there is frequently a lack of skill in hiding, and a definite lack of maintenance common to group caches, of which I perhaps unfortunately called "scout caches" in the subject and OP.

 

The problem here is the annual (or less) rotation of the members of the group, along with the basic motive for hiding the cache in the first place. That motive is generally to get a merit badge or get a grade. Those rewards come from the merit badge or grade that resulted from placing the cache, not from the cache itself and the responsibilities that come from maintaining it. The short-term reward is collected, and the cache is forgotten about.

Geez... I can identify them easily. Look at the cache page. The owner is listed. Education is the key not a witch hunt. There is a way to weed them out.. use the SBA option.

Let me clarify... we don't have a way to identify them ahead of time (prior to publication). OK? Edited February 9, 2010 by knowschad

[+edscott]

Newbie here - I'm not sure I understand the desire for ALL caches to be permanent?

Permanent as defined by the Geocaching.com Listing Guidelines = 3 months ;-). And that's a reasonable goal for Scout owned caches. A season, and then they can be pulled and the listing archived. No problem.

But many group placed caches are just abandoned, and often immediately after publication. Nobody home. This is true of boy and girl scouts, class projects, 4-H...

It is also true of lots of new cachers. What makes youth groups your specific target?

That has been explained several times up above, Ed.

First of all, we don't make policy here. We just discuss issues. That's all that is going on here, so relax. Second, sure bad caches are put out all the time. Short term cachers sign up, hide a cache, then leave. We know that. But we don't have any way to identify those people. We have, however, found that there is frequently a lack of skill in hiding, and a definite lack of maintenance common to group caches, of which I perhaps unfortunately called "scout caches" in the subject and OP.

 

The problem here is the annual (or less) rotation of the members of the group, along with the basic motive for hiding the cache in the first place. That motive is generally to get a merit badge or get a grade. Those rewards come from the merit badge or grade that resulted from placing the cache, not from the cache itself and the responsibilities that come from maintaining it. The short-term reward is collected, and the cache is forgotten about.

Geez... I can identify them easily. Look at the cache page. The owner is listed. Education is the key not a witch hunt. There is a way to weed them out.. use the SBA option.

Let me clarify... we don't have a way to identify them ahead of time (prior to publication). OK?

 

Good we agree.. There's no way to know if a scout troop will not maintain a cache until they do.. or don't do it... just like anyone else.... so again, treat them like everyone else and use the SBA option if it becomes an appropriate action.

[knowschad]

Good we agree.. There's no way to know if a scout troop will not maintain a cache until they do.. or don't do it... just like anyone else.... so again, treat them like everyone else and use the SBA option if it becomes an appropriate action.

No, we do not agree.

The TENDENCY of these groups seems to be to put out temporary caches. The TENDENCY of individuals is undeniably to put out permanent caches. Many in this thread have agreed with this observation. There are exceptions to everything, of course.

 

Let me add to that by stating that, as you well know, we do not write geocaching policy here in the forums. We are merely discussing a situation. I see by your profile that you are a retired teacher, and I can understand that you may feel a bit on the defense here. But if you have read everything here, you will see that I by no means have said (and really, nobody has said) that these groups should not hide caches.

I have proposed above that instead of each year's group feeling that they need to hide a new cache in order to understand geocaching, that instead perhaps they should maintain the caches put out by previous years as a means to that same end.

Edited February 9, 2010 by knowschad

[+edscott]

I have proposed above that instead of each year's group feeling that they need to hide a new cache in order to understand geocaching, that instead perhaps they should maintain the caches put out by previous years as a means to that same end.

 

Is this different from the basic attitude that any cache hider should have? ... Don't put out more unless you can maintain what you already have? I don't think this idea should only apply to youth groups.

[knowschad]

I have proposed above that instead of each year's group feeling that they need to hide a new cache in order to understand geocaching, that instead perhaps they should maintain the caches put out by previous years as a means to that same end.

Is this different from the basic attitude that any cache hider should have? ... Don't put out more unless you can maintain what you already have? I don't think this idea should only apply to youth groups.

It seems that you are deliberately misreading and twisting everything I say, Ed. Please try to stop that... it is getting frustrating! I am saying that it

should ALSO apply to youth groups! It does not seem to in far too many situations, based on the experiences of many of us.

Edited February 9, 2010 by knowschad

[+The Zachalope]

I'd love to hear other's experiences, both positive and negative regarding caches placed by Scout Troups (and I think we can safely group school classes in with this). I'd especially love to hear from some scout leaders that have successfully managed to hide and maintain caches.

 

I suspect that I've found considerably less than a dozen Scout group caches, which makes up a drop in the bucket of my total finds, but those that I have found were exclusively very badly executed, apparently abandoned caches.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm pulling experience here as a Scoutmaster, Geocaching Chairman for our local Boy Scout Council, and an avid geocacher.

 

Pros: As it's said many times in Scout training, 3/4 of "Scouting" is "Outing". It gets Scouts/Families/Friends away from the Playstation and into nature.

 

Cons: Agreeing with what I've read throughout this thread, many Cub Scout Packs and Boy Scout Troops put out caches with the best intentions, but many times they are not maintained.

 

Fixes: I feel that if Scouts want to be involved with geocaching, they should go out and find existing caches, especially if their local council has placed caches that are being maintained or are placed at a BSA Camp. If they want to be more involved, it should be suggested that they release a few travel bugs or host a CITO event.

[knowschad]

Thanks, Zach... that is exactly the way I hope this thread is seen by those involved in youth groups!

[+Roland_oso]

As a Scoutmaster and Geocacher, I have made integrating Geocaching into Scout Activities a crusade of mine for several years and I know first hand the obstacles encountered with “Groups” getting in the game. I often visit with Scout Packs, Troops and Crews and give a basic Geocaching course complete with finding a few temp caches I have set up for the day. I have made it a point to not discuss the hiding aspect, because IMHO hiding caches is much more work than finding them. I have hidden several Scout caches and even one with my Troop, but I hid it under my personal account and maintain as one of my own.

 

The requirements for the soon to be released Geocaching Merit Badge have not been published, but I hope that Hiding a cache is not a requirement. I hope that it is not even an option of a requirement as many merit badges have “do 3 of the following 6” type requirements. I’m sure to be heavily involved with Geocaching activities in my Council and plan on stressing to leaders that I will come across to really think about the responsibility that comes along with hiding a cache.

 

Geocaching is a great way to get kids excited about getting outdoors. If you tell a group of “Generation Video Game” kids that you are going to go on a 5 mile hike, you are going to hear a bunch of moaning and groaning. You tell them that you are going to go Treasure Hunting with what amounts to a handheld video game, you will be the one begging them to call it a day 10 miles later. The beauty of it is the true treasure is getting them outdoors and after a few trips the boys realize that themselves.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Fixes: I feel that if Scouts want to be involved with geocaching, they should go out and find existing caches, especially if their local council has placed caches that are being maintained or are placed at a BSA Camp. If they want to be more involved, it should be suggested that they release a few travel bugs or host a CITO event.

 

I don't think you can hide a cache at a BSA camp and have it listed on gc.com. It has to be available to everyone.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Thoughts?

 

The ones I found were on scout lands. As I was there by invite, it's not really any of my business or concern how they maintain the caches on their own land. However the few that I have found were in good shape.

 

The concept of successive packs of scouts maintaining a cache isn't broken as a concept. It's the passing of the torch that doesn't always happen.

[+Renegade Knight]

I have proposed above that instead of each year's group feeling that they need to hide a new cache in order to understand geocaching, that instead perhaps they should maintain the caches put out by previous years as a means to that same end.

Is this different from the basic attitude that any cache hider should have? ... Don't put out more unless you can maintain what you already have? I don't think this idea should only apply to youth groups.

It seems that you are deliberately misreading and twisting everything I say, Ed. Please try to stop that... it is getting frustrating! I am saying that it

should ALSO apply to youth groups! It does not seem to in far too many situations, based on the experiences of many of us.

 

It would be easy enough to create a series of 10 caches. Each year they check up on the old ones (and read the logs) and place one new one. When they hit 10 they retire the oldest and place 1 new one. Eache generation places 1, checks 9 (some finding for the first time) and gets good experience. The concept of cache permanence is covered with a cycle of 2. You can have as large of a number in your cycle as you have trail, and hike ability in your group.

[knowschad]

It would be easy enough to create a series of 10 caches. Each year they check up on the old ones (and read the logs) and place one new one. When they hit 10 they retire the oldest and place 1 new one. Eache generation places 1, checks 9 (some finding for the first time) and gets good experience. The concept of cache permanence is covered with a cycle of 2. You can have as large of a number in your cycle as you have trail, and hike ability in your group.

That is an excellent idea!!

[knowschad]

The concept of successive packs of scouts maintaining a cache isn't broken as a concept. It's the passing of the torch that doesn't always happen.

Yup. Exactly!

[+modnar24]

I am a "retired" Boy Scout. I think it is a great program that influenced my life in many ways. I received my Eagle in 1998 at the age of 16 and remained active with the program until 2002. I see a few flaws with geocaching as it relates to the Boy scouts and cache placement. The biggest problem I see:

 

I don't think the issue is an annual rotation as some have suggested. I was involved with the same Boy Scout Troop for 9 years. Another local troop had had the same Scoutmaster for 35 years. The biggest reason we would not have maintained a cache would have been lack of interest. I can remember so many times that scouting adults brought us these "great ideas" that all of the youth hated. It was pushed on us with little enthusiasm. Are these group placing caches because it's something the kids want to do; Or the adults think the kids might enjoy it? I remember one time the adult leadership spending a bunch of money buying poles and ropes to use for pioneering projects. We built a tower once; and then the hundreds of dollars worth of poles rotted away. We would have been much happier going on a free hike.

 

Maybe the winning result is to introduce the youth to the hunt. Let them experience it once. If they are into it they'll get an account (it's free!) and hide caches on their own. These caches will be maintained because the owner is doing something they enjoy.

[knowschad]

I am a "retired" Boy Scout. I think it is a great program that influenced my life in many ways. I received my Eagle in 1998 at the age of 16 and remained active with the program until 2002. I see a few flaws with geocaching as it relates to the Boy scouts and cache placement. The biggest problem I see:

 

I don't think the issue is an annual rotation as some have suggested. I was involved with the same Boy Scout Troop for 9 years. Another local troop had had the same Scoutmaster for 35 years. The biggest reason we would not have maintained a cache would have been lack of interest. I can remember so many times that scouting adults brought us these "great ideas" that all of the youth hated. It was pushed on us with little enthusiasm. Are these group placing caches because it's something the kids want to do; Or the adults think the kids might enjoy it? I remember one time the adult leadership spending a bunch of money buying poles and ropes to use for pioneering projects. We built a tower once; and then the hundreds of dollars worth of poles rotted away. We would have been much happier going on a free hike.

 

Maybe the winning result is to introduce the youth to the hunt. Let them experience it once. If they are into it they'll get an account (it's free!) and hide caches on their own. These caches will be maintained because the owner is doing something they enjoy.

Thanks, Modnar!! This is just the sort of dialog I was hoping this thread would generate! So, based on your experience, would the best approach have been for the scout masters to ask the scouts what they wanted to do (giving them an "experience" they already were familiar with), instead of forcing them to do something they didn't want to do (showing them something new, and possibly character-building)? That isn't a loaded question, even if it seems like it. I'd really like to know.

[+Coqui572]

As a Scout leader myself, the idea of mixing Geocaching and Scouting sounds great, but it should be done with educating the Scouts first and then working with those that show an interest in the activity. Lasdt year I did two caches created by Scout groubs (one Cub Pack and one Girl Scout troop) and a couple of months after being published both have been archived due to lack of maintenance. But the again, I see local geocachers that have over 40 hides and half of them are pending archive due to lack of maintenance as well.

 

We introduced our Troop to geocaching last week, and we did an activity in which we solved a puzzle cache that is very close to our meeting place. We have already located an area where we are going to do a hide. Even though its a hide for the group, it will be maintained by a couple of adult leaders (myself included) that will treat it like one of our one (because it will be under our account).

 

With the new Geocaching Merit Badge coming in, I must say our biggest concern is, like a post before said, that a requirement will be to hide a cache. Hopefully this will not be the case, as this will see an increase in caches done by Scouts with good intentions, but with low potential of maintaining the cache for an extended period of time.

[+modnar24]

Thanks, Modnar!! This is just the sort of dialog I was hoping this thread would generate! So, based on your experience, would the best approach have been for the scout masters to ask the scouts what they wanted to do (giving them an "experience" they already were familiar with), instead of forcing them to do something they didn't want to do (showing them something new, and possibly character-building)? That isn't a loaded question, even if it seems like it. I'd really like to know.

 

I think this is the challenge for adults that involve themselves in Scouting. Part of being a teenager is wanting to do your own thing. The part that makes the Boy Scouts so successful is that it is designed to be a youth led program. I think the best activities that we did were the ones we planned. Plenty of opportunities exsist. I can't remember how many half hour presentations we saw. Many of them I glazed over; some stick with me to this day. Just because I glazed over one, doesn't mean that all 45 kids in the room did.

 

I guess my answer is I don't know. I can tell you this. If a cache is placed because someone is assigned to do it. It's not gonna get maintained. If a cache is maintained because someone is assigned to maintain it, it's gonna get maintained to a minimum standered. If you show 45 kids something; Maybe 1 will like what they see. If that one person places a cache on their own, it will be a lot better maintained then any assignment. Are those other 44 kids missing out? I think so. But what about the other one kid that likes the presentation on first aid and becomes a doctor...

 

M24

 

(P.S. Is there a spell checker here that I'm missing?)

[+edscott]

I have proposed above that instead of each year's group feeling that they need to hide a new cache in order to understand geocaching, that instead perhaps they should maintain the caches put out by previous years as a means to that same end.

Is this different from the basic attitude that any cache hider should have? ... Don't put out more unless you can maintain what you already have? I don't think this idea should only apply to youth groups.

It seems that you are deliberately misreading and twisting everything I say, Ed. Please try to stop that... it is getting frustrating! I am saying that it

should ALSO apply to youth groups! It does not seem to in far too many situations, based on the experiences of many of us.

 

Fine, I'll not comment again until I can find a Minnesotan to English translator.

[Andronicus]

I just found a cache yesturday that was found over 2 month ago by a scout troop. They reported that they took a travel bug, but they had not logged it online. Coupled to that, that was their first cache find, and they have not found one since. The bug is likely lost for good.

 

Anyway, I e-mailed the cacher (using the link on geocaching.com), with a quick tutorial on proper travel bug logging. We will see what happens, if anything?

 

PS, after a bit more resurche, I found that the scout dude "Discovered" it, not retrieved it. GS should think about making the terms less confusing.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Andronicus

[+The Zachalope]

I don't think you can hide a cache at a BSA camp and have it listed on gc.com. It has to be available to everyone.

 

Yeah, I should have been more clear. There are several Boy Scout camps that offer Geocaching within the camp to units visiting the camp. Yes, they're not going to be placed on gc.com, but it still offers a maintained geocaching program to the Scouts.

[+Ducky]

It all depends on the leadership. I have been maintaining a cache for my troop which went defunct about 3 years ago. First the Beavers went followed by the Scouts(I only had 2 scouts the last year) then I found out the Cubs were about to go because of a leadership problem, so I stepped in but only managed to keep it going for another 2 years. Now the entire Group has gone the way of the dodo bird. I'll keep maintaining it till I can find another troop to take it over.

 

Be Prepared

Edited February 17, 2010 by Ducky

[+ChasingPahls]

OK guys hold on here before you pass judgment!!

 

1. All of you started off as muggles!

2. Boy Scouts are taught to Preserve the outdoors AKA Look up their OUTDOOR CODE

3. Private Boy Scout Camps ARE open to the public, just call the Council who owns it and get permission to go on a hunt if a cache is hid there

4. The joy of Geocaching is in the hunt NOT the broken Happy Meal toy!

5. All of you have a Troop nearby, contact them and volunteer to be their Merit Badge Counciler

(Training to be a councilor is just a couple hours!)

6. You all know enough information to throw together a Summer Camp training, so Volunteer ahead of time and tell the Camp Leader you WILL be ready for the requirements! See #5

7. I would rather call it Geocaching not GPS/GIS <==the latter sounds boring

8. I always carry extra containers, tape, logs, etc to help maintain caches that may need it on my hunt....I encourage all of you to do so!

9. Are all of your DNFs Cub Scout or Boy Scout ones? I have come across missing private caches too! Suck it up, its part of the game! Post maintenance requests, after a couple, report it, then it will be archived. That is the procedure, if I am not mistaken!

 

I have been to several Scout Geocaches and found them interesting and super well maintained. Heck even one of them mailed me a patch just for visiting. I, Cubmaster of my Pack, have taken my boys geocaching on three instances, all had no swag, but had a great time finding them. I currently am planning 6 multicaches that are Cub Scout focused and will have them up and running this summer! (they will be mine) Just getting kids outdoors allows for magic to happen! I will now step down off my soap box, happy hunting all!!

[knowschad]

OK guys hold on here before you pass judgment!!

We are not passing judgement, we are discussing our experiences

 

1. All of you started off as muggles!

Sorry, but I don't understand the relevance to the topic at hand.

 

2. Boy Scouts are taught to Preserve the outdoors AKA Look up their OUTDOOR CODE

I'm sure that is true. The point in this thread is that, due to the particular makeup of these groups, all too often, they are abandoning caches in the outdoors despite what their outdoor code may say. Many people have posted similar experiences to this thread.

 

3. Private Boy Scout Camps ARE open to the public, just call the Council who owns it and get permission to go on a hunt if a cache is hid there

Yup I have found some myself in a Scout camp that were placed by permission. I think it was only one person in this entire thread that claimed otherwise, and anyway, caches on Scout property is not what this thread is about.

 

4. The joy of Geocaching is in the hunt NOT the broken Happy Meal toy!

You're right. But the thread is about cache maintenance, not joy of geocaching. I don't believe there has been any mention here of broken Happy Meal toys.

 

5. All of you have a Troop nearby, contact them and volunteer to be their Merit Badge Counciler(Training to be a councilor is just a couple hours!)

I, for one, am not interested in doing that. You would not want an uninterested person being a counceller, I'm sure. Maybe the fact the brief training time is part of the problem... I dunno.

 

6. You all know enough information to throw together a Summer Camp training, so Volunteer ahead of time and tell the Camp Leader you WILL be ready for the requirements! See #5

That would not help the fact that 1) They should know the guidelines regarding maintenance before they ever hide a cache, and 2) The annual turnover of the troup and lack of continuity between those sessions is what seems to be causing problems.

 

7. I would rather call it Geocaching not GPS/GIS <==the latter sounds boring

Works for me.

 

8. I always carry extra containers, tape, logs, etc to help maintain caches that may need it on my hunt....I encourage all of you to do so!

Again... that is not the point. Many of us do. But the guidelines clearly state that the cache maintenance is up to the cache owner. What we do to help them along is strictly voluntary.

 

9. Are all of your DNFs Cub Scout or Boy Scout ones? I have come across missing private caches too! Suck it up, its part of the game! Post maintenance requests, after a couple, report it, then it will be archived. That is the procedure, if I am not mistaken!

Of COURSE other caches sometimes need maintenance. It happens to my caches, as well. That's when I go out and maintain them. Again, the point here has to do with the nature of these groups inherently causing maintenance issues. Please understand that this is NOT about the boys or girls themselves.

 

I have been to several Scout Geocaches and found them interesting and super well maintained. Heck even one of them mailed me a patch just for visiting.

Great! I'm very glad to hear that. Obviously, many of us have had contrary experiences. I'm curious about how many years had those caches been out at the time you visited it? I'd venture to guess, less than one year. Same troup that put it out mailed you the patch, most likely.

[+L0ne.R]

9. Are all of your DNFs Cub Scout or Boy Scout ones? I have come across missing private caches too! Suck it up, its part of the game! Post maintenance requests, after a couple, report it, then it will be archived. That is the procedure, if I am not mistaken!

Of COURSE other caches sometimes need maintenance. It happens to my caches, as well. That's when I go out and maintain them. Again, the point here has to do with the nature of these groups inherently causing maintenance issues. Please understand that this is NOT about the boys or girls themselves.

 

That's the crux of it - the maintenance issue. The idea behind "Needs Maintenance" is that an owner goes out and maintains the cache in a timely fashion. Often with group projects, no one is assigned to take care of the cache and after the project is over, the cache is abandoned. Eventually the "Needs Maintenance" becomes "Needs Archiving". Then the cache is archived by the reviewer and the damaged box remains as litter in the woods. That's not a good example of environmental stewardship.

 

From the BSA Outdoor Code:

OUTDOOR CODE

As an American I will do my best to:

 

Be clean in my outdoor manners,

I will treat the outdoors as a heritage. I will take care of it for myself and others. I will keep my trash and garbage out of lakes, streams, fields, woods, and roadways.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Lone R

[knowschad]

Newspaper article, "Geocaching puts 'outing' in Scouting" (a rather odd headline for an article about the BSA, I thought )

[Andronicus]

Then the cache is archived by the reviewer and the damaged box remains as litter in the woods. That's not a good example of environmental stewardship.

 

To avoid the Geo-litter, maybe after a cache is archived due to poor maintanence/CO unresponsivness, there should be a special catagory of find for whoever cleans up the geo-litter. It could be kind of like a FTF (LTF or something).

 

Newspaper article, "Geocaching puts 'outing' in Scouting" (a rather odd headline for an article about the BSA, I thought )

 

Isn't the word "outing" usualy in reference to revieling, without permission, someones sexual orientation?

[+GeoGeeBee]

Newspaper article, "Geocaching puts 'outing' in Scouting" (a rather odd headline for an article about the BSA, I thought )

 

Isn't the word "outing" usualy in reference to revieling, without permission, someones sexual orientation?

 

I hope I got the quote attributions right!

 

The word "outing," in the BSA, is a reference to going outdoors. "Scouting is 75% 'outing'" is something one hears frequently in the training classes for adult Scouters.

[knowschad]

Newspaper article, "Geocaching puts 'outing' in Scouting" (a rather odd headline for an article about the BSA, I thought )

 

Isn't the word "outing" usualy in reference to revieling, without permission, someones sexual orientation?

The word "outing," in the BSA, is a reference to going outdoors. "Scouting is 75% 'outing'" is something one hears frequently in the training classes for adult Scouters.

Wouldn't that be 87.5%?

[+edscott]

6/8 =.75 = 75%

[+eagsc7]

Actually GPS usage is illegal in Orienteering. They need to be kept separate.

 

In Fact, GPS usage is not illegal. What IS, is the director giving the participants the GPS coords. IF a participant wants to use their knowledge of the map, scale, and compass headings, they CAN come upon a set of coordinates that are going to be CLOSE to where the marker is, therefore being able to use a GPS.

 

The Steaks

[+edscott]

Actually GPS usage is illegal in Orienteering. They need to be kept separate.

 

In Fact, GPS usage is not illegal. What IS, is the director giving the participants the GPS coords. IF a participant wants to use their knowledge of the map, scale, and compass headings, they CAN come upon a set of coordinates that are going to be CLOSE to where the marker is, therefore being able to use a GPS.

 

The Steaks

 

I'm referring to competitive orienteering by USOF rules as copied below. see 4.2

 

4. Conduct of Competitors

 

4.1 Competitors shall not enter the course, after obtaining map and checkpoint information, until the official start is signaled.

4.2 The only navigational aids that may be carried on the course are magnetic compasses, watches and copies of the competition map. The possession of other navigational aids, including pedometers, altimeters and GPS receivers on the course is prohibited. The use of relevant maps other than those expressly sanctioned by the organizers is prohibited.

4.3 Computers may not be used by competitors for planning their strategy.

4.4 Competitors shall travel only on foot unless otherwise specified by the organizers.

4.5 Members of a team shall remain within unaided verbal contact of one another at all times while on the course. A team shall demonstrate compliance with this requirement to any event official or other team on request.

4.6 A team shall surrender its score card to any event official, and shall advise their team number to any event official or other team, on request.

4.7 A team shall not accept assistance from, nor collaborate with, other people, nor deliberately follow another team.

4.8 No food nor equipment shall be left on the course before the event for a team's use, and any food or equipment cached on the course by the team during the event must be brought back by the team with them to the finish.

4.9 Each competitor shall carry a whistle at all times on the course.

 

In case you're planning on international competition here's the IOF's position:

 

Background

The IOF’s motive for implementing the amended wording of rule 21.3 is to preserve the basic values of the sport of orienteering, namely to navigate using map and compass only. The development in the area of small, hand-held positioning and navigation devices is very rapid and the IOF believes it would be impossible to maintain the sport’s basic values while allowing free the use of such devices. It follows, as a consequence, that the carrying of such devices during a competition must be prohbited. Hence the IOF Council’s decision to clarify rule 21.3 to take validity from June 1, 2009 at all IOF events, meaning The World Games, the World Championships, the World Cup, World Ranking Events, the Junior World Championships and the World Masters Orienteering Championships.

 

What is allowed?

The IOF is aware of the increasing popularity of GPS-based position recording devices over the last years as a tool for post-race analysis of performance and to share route-choice information etc. This is welcomed, and it is not the intention to prohibit such usage. The IOF, therefore, wants to make it clear that any position recording device that is not capable of informing the athlete about position or navigation during the race, is allowed. In practice this means that GPS data-logger devices without a display or sound communication may be used in all the above mentioned IOF events.

Edited March 10, 2010 by edscott

[+burtsbodgers]

Hi

I have not got the time to read through the entire thread so if i am going over old ground i appologise.

 

Geocaching as a sport, hobby or activity is great. But it is not really part of scouting, but is an excellent tool for teaching the use of GPSr devices alongside other navigational techniques.

 

However if a cache is not maintained it will spoil the find for those is hunting it, so any cache should be hidden with the aim by the cache "owner" to keep the cache in good shape.

 

So Group caches which do not have a clear "owner" are always going to struggle.

 

As a Scout leader I have hidden Scout Caches, themed around Scouting. But these are My caches and i "own" them and do the maintenance. If My group hide a cache then either it will be hidden under my account and i would maintain it or one of the other leaders.

 

But i would not allow or recommend that the group set up their own account and hide under that! because there would not necessarily be a coherent owner.

 

I would recommend the use of a group travel bug, which in its own way portrays geocaching in a better way, with a world wide community sharing in a single goal.

 

Although i do have to say Scout Caches do seem popular with cachers in general with my hides recieving good feedback via the logs and plenty of visits.

[jschultz64]

Maybe the winning result is to introduce the youth to the hunt. Let them experience it once. If they are into it they'll get an account (it's free!) and hide caches on their own. These caches will be maintained because the owner is doing something they enjoy.

As a newbie and a Scoutmaster, I read this thread and others to try to figure out the best way to incorporate geocaching with our troop's program.

 

The geocaching merit badge is something that individual Boy Scouts work on. If done correctly, any work on the merit badge would be outside of this discussion about "groups" not maintaining caches because the boy is personally responsible for it. The boy works with a merit badge counselor to earn the badge. If the boy does hide a cache, the counselor should be monitoring the placement and maintenance.

 

The merit badge requirements are available at http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Geocaching. Hiding a cache is one option out of four that a boy can use to fulfill requirement 8.

 

So...the BSA has put out some material targeted to leaders which encourages using geocaching in the units. These are primarily "marketing aids." The only "official" requirements are in the geocaching merit badge.

 

IMO, seeking caches is a fun activity for all ages, but Cub Scout packs and Boy Scout troops should NOT be placing caches as a unit. There is nothing in the BSA program that requires units to so. Modnar hit the nail on the head with his post about leaders doing things the kids aren't interested in. Scouting should open doors and provide an introduction to new things, but too often, the leaders make commitments on behalf of the youth that the youth have no interest in following up. I see this a lot from other Scoutmasters.

 

NeecesandNephews expressed disappointment at what Scouts "seems" to have become. All I can say is that we work with what we have. When I try to work with an 11-year old boy on cooking and he tells me that his mother won't let him use the stove, I start to realize how far back we need to start with some of these kids. I will say that almost every boy that has dropped out of my unit has been unable to deal with the level of responsibility I expect. This is something that comes from the home and there's not much I can do. It makes you have a little sympathy for former Kansas football couch Mark Mangino. It doesn't excuse his actions, but I certainly understand his frustration.

[knowschad]

Excellent posts by jschultz64 and burtsbodgers... thanks for your insight!

Edited March 28, 2010 by knowschad

[knowschad]

Maybe the winning result is to introduce the youth to the hunt. Let them experience it once. If they are into it they'll get an account (it's free!) and hide caches on their own. These caches will be maintained because the owner is doing something they enjoy.

As a newbie and a Scoutmaster, I read this thread and others to try to figure out the best way to incorporate geocaching with our troop's program.

 

The geocaching merit badge is something that individual Boy Scouts work on. If done correctly, any work on the merit badge would be outside of this discussion about "groups" not maintaining caches because the boy is personally responsible for it. The boy works with a merit badge counselor to earn the badge. If the boy does hide a cache, the counselor should be monitoring the placement and maintenance.

 

The merit badge requirements are available at http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Geocaching. Hiding a cache is one option out of four that a boy can use to fulfill requirement 8.

 

So...the BSA has put out some material targeted to leaders which encourages using geocaching in the units. These are primarily "marketing aids." The only "official" requirements are in the geocaching merit badge.

 

IMO, seeking caches is a fun activity for all ages, but Cub Scout packs and Boy Scout troops should NOT be placing caches as a unit. There is nothing in the BSA program that requires units to so. Modnar hit the nail on the head with his post about leaders doing things the kids aren't interested in. Scouting should open doors and provide an introduction to new things, but too often, the leaders make commitments on behalf of the youth that the youth have no interest in following up. I see this a lot from other Scoutmasters.

 

NeecesandNephews expressed disappointment at what Scouts "seems" to have become. All I can say is that we work with what we have. When I try to work with an 11-year old boy on cooking and he tells me that his mother won't let him use the stove, I start to realize how far back we need to start with some of these kids. I will say that almost every boy that has dropped out of my unit has been unable to deal with the level of responsibility I expect. This is something that comes from the home and there's not much I can do. It makes you have a little sympathy for former Kansas football couch Mark Mangino. It doesn't excuse his actions, but I certainly understand his frustration.

 

I just got around to reading the link that you posted. I came back to this thread because three Scout-related caches were just published in my area this afternoon. These were placed by the Scout Master himself, so I assume that he is accepting all responsibility for maintenance in this case, so I think (hope?) we're good there. The cache owner posted a link to the Get In The Game! With Geocaching page, which itself contains a link to the Cache To Eagle page (which references a geocaching guidelines document.

 

(the above is all just FYI information... I'm not trying to make a point or take a stand by writing that)

 

However, in the Merit Badge requirements that you posted, the one that did concern me a bit was:

 

c) Set up and hide a public geocache, following all the www.geocaching.com guidelines. With your parent’s permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

 

My concern is that it conveys the idea that responsibility for the cache will end in one month.

[+modnar24]

I just got around to reading the link that you posted. I came back to this thread because three Scout-related caches were just published in my area this afternoon. These were placed by the Scout Master himself, so I assume that he is accepting all responsibility for maintenance in this case, so I think (hope?) we're good there. The cache owner posted a link to the Get In The Game! With Geocaching page, which itself contains a link to the Cache To Eagle page (which references a geocaching guidelines document.

 

(the above is all just FYI information... I'm not trying to make a point or take a stand by writing that)

 

However, in the Merit Badge requirements that you posted, the one that did concern me a bit was:

 

c) Set up and hide a public geocache, following all the www.geocaching.com guidelines. With your parent’s permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.

 

My concern is that it conveys the idea that responsibility for the cache will end in one month.

 

I think you are right on here. The BSA organization seems to be ignoring the guidelines for cache placement when it comes to permanance. It seems rather "unscoutlike". They give you the rules and then tell you they don't expect you to follow them. 30 days does not seem long enough to qualify a permanant cache. Maybe I'm missing something. I'll have to read the link when I get home.

 

M24

[+modnar24]

Another thought. Doesn't posting a link to the "get in the game" page constitute promoting an agenda? I'm sure the Boy Scouts and Groundspeak got together on the program, but is there now an exception for this agenda or are we to expect the individual cache owner took a cache through the appeals process to get the cache approved.

 

M24

Edited March 28, 2010 by modnar24

[+bittsen]

Perhaps there could be a geocaching merit badge requirement that a scout has to go find a random geocache and perform some maintenance on it. Double points if it's a scouts geocache.

[+NeecesandNephews]

Maybe the winning result is to introduce the youth to the hunt. Let them experience it once. If they are into it they'll get an account (it's free!) and hide caches on their own. These caches will be maintained because the owner is doing something they enjoy.

 

NeecesandNephews expressed disappointment at what Scouts "seems" to have become. All I can say is that we work with what we have. When I try to work with an 11-year old boy on cooking and he tells me that his mother won't let him use the stove, I start to realize how far back we need to start with some of these kids. I will say that almost every boy that has dropped out of my unit has been unable to deal with the level of responsibility I expect. This is something that comes from the home and there's not much I can do. It makes you have a little sympathy for former Kansas football couch Mark Mangino. It doesn't excuse his actions, but I certainly understand his frustration.

 

 

snipped a bit

 

jshultz64 I did not mean for my post to seem like it was placing blame on those who volunteer to lead Scouts. As a part time volunteer with our Church's youth outreach, I fully understand what you are going through.

 

I have the greatest respect for anyone who works with todays youth. And even more respect for those employed as Educators.

 

Perhaps I should have worded it differently. Not being involved in Scouting myself I may have judged unfairly.

 

It seems society as a whole is gravitating toward "instant gratification" type involvement, without enough emphasis on duration, and longevity. My Grandpa used to tell me "start out like you can hold out". Which I interpreted to mean "don't be just a flash in the pan".

 

I feel the opportunity exists for Scouts to learn not just the technical aspect of Geochaching, but the responsibility part of it also.

 

I would hope this would be part of the "core curriculum" of Geocaching for Scouts. Making a commitment to the continued upkeep of a placement is a valuable lesson in responsible behavior.

 

I realize that the attention span of kids seems to be getting shorter and shorter, and the means of getting their attention in the first place is becoming more complicated.

 

I believe reading these forums, and encouraging the Scouts to read some of them, would be a valuable experience, and might impress upon them the serious commitment that has been made to the sport/hobby by the participants.

 

While there is a lot of angst displayed, and sometimes heated debates erupt, I believe the people on this forum have the interests of the game at heart for the most part.

 

I learned a lot in Scouts and wish I could tell my Scoutmaster today, how much I appreciated what he did for me. I am sure I tried his patience to the breaking point!!

[+GeoGeeBee]

 

c) Set up and hide a public geocache, following all the www.geocaching.com guidelines. With your parent’s permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.[/i]

 

My concern is that it conveys the idea that responsibility for the cache will end in one month.

 

I think you are right on here. The BSA organization seems to be ignoring the guidelines for cache placement when it comes to permanance.

 

As a merit badge counselor, I disagree with your conclusion. The requirement clearly states that the cache must be placed following the guidelines.

 

To earn any merit badge, the scout works with a counselor who is experienced in the field under study. In this case, the counselor would be an experienced geocacher. I believe the counselor will make sure the scout understands the permanence guidelines, and will encourage the scout to select one of the other three options for this requirement if he isn't able to commit to taking care of the cache.

 

The requirement is to have the scout share the logs with the counselor. 30 days is reasonable for that purpose. It shouldn't take six months to earn a merit badge.

[knowschad]

 

c) Set up and hide a public geocache, following all the www.geocaching.com guidelines. With your parent's permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.[/i]

 

My concern is that it conveys the idea that responsibility for the cache will end in one month.

 

I think you are right on here. The BSA organization seems to be ignoring the guidelines for cache placement when it comes to permanance.

 

As a merit badge counselor, I disagree with your conclusion. The requirement clearly states that the cache must be placed following the guidelines.

 

To earn any merit badge, the scout works with a counselor who is experienced in the field under study. In this case, the counselor would be an experienced geocacher. I believe the counselor will make sure the scout understands the permanence guidelines, and will encourage the scout to select one of the other three options for this requirement if he isn't able to commit to taking care of the cache.

 

The requirement is to have the scout share the logs with the counselor. 30 days is reasonable for that purpose. It shouldn't take six months to earn a merit badge.

 

Regarding guidelines, From the Cache to Eagle page:

 

Starting a Cache to Eagle Series

If you’re a BSA staff member or volunteer, start your own Cache to Eagle series! Read through the guidelines in the Get in the Game! toolkit on YourSource (Scouting.org/100years). YourSource is a password protected site. A user ID and password are provided to all members of the 100th Anniversary National Leadership Team.

I don't know what those guidelines state. Perhaps they are the geocaching.com guidelines, perhaps not. I can't see them.

 

But regardless, the point I/we are making in the last couple of posts is that the wording implies no more than a 30 day involvement. That does not mean that there won't be exceptions, or that the counselor won't make it clear that the involvement is of a longer duration. I read nothing whatsoever in any of these documents that states loud and clear that there is a long term responsibility involved in hiding a cache, and that bothers me.

[+GeoGeeBee]

 

c) Set up and hide a public geocache, following all the www.geocaching.com guidelines. With your parent's permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.[/i]

 

My concern is that it conveys the idea that responsibility for the cache will end in one month.

 

I think you are right on here. The BSA organization seems to be ignoring the guidelines for cache placement when it comes to permanance.

 

As a merit badge counselor, I disagree with your conclusion. The requirement clearly states that the cache must be placed following the guidelines.

 

To earn any merit badge, the scout works with a counselor who is experienced in the field under study. In this case, the counselor would be an experienced geocacher. I believe the counselor will make sure the scout understands the permanence guidelines, and will encourage the scout to select one of the other three options for this requirement if he isn't able to commit to taking care of the cache.

 

The requirement is to have the scout share the logs with the counselor. 30 days is reasonable for that purpose. It shouldn't take six months to earn a merit badge.

 

Regarding guidelines, From the Cache to Eagle page:

 

Starting a Cache to Eagle Series

If you’re a BSA staff member or volunteer, start your own Cache to Eagle series! Read through the guidelines in the Get in the Game! toolkit on YourSource (Scouting.org/100years). YourSource is a password protected site. A user ID and password are provided to all members of the 100th Anniversary National Leadership Team.

I don't know what those guidelines state. Perhaps they are the geocaching.com guidelines, perhaps not. I can't see them.

 

But regardless, the point I/we are making in the last couple of posts is that the wording implies no more than a 30 day involvement. That does not mean that there won't be exceptions, or that the counselor won't make it clear that the involvement is of a longer duration. I read nothing whatsoever in any of these documents that states loud and clear that there is a long term responsibility involved in hiding a cache, and that bothers me.

 

You're conflating two very different things.

 

The Cache to Eagle has NOTHING at all to do with the requirements for the merit badge. The Cache to Eagle series is encouraging cache placement by adult scout leaders, not scouts.

 

The merit badge is an award that a youth member of the scouts must earn, and he MUST be guided by a merit badge counselor who is an experienced geocacher. And, as I have highlighted above, the merit badge requirements refer directly to the geocaching.com guidelines.

[knowschad]

 

c) Set up and hide a public geocache, following all the www.geocaching.com guidelines. With your parent's permission, follow the logs online for 30 days and share them with your counselor.[/i]

 

My concern is that it conveys the idea that responsibility for the cache will end in one month.

 

I think you are right on here. The BSA organization seems to be ignoring the guidelines for cache placement when it comes to permanance.

 

As a merit badge counselor, I disagree with your conclusion. The requirement clearly states that the cache must be placed following the guidelines.

 

To earn any merit badge, the scout works with a counselor who is experienced in the field under study. In this case, the counselor would be an experienced geocacher. I believe the counselor will make sure the scout understands the permanence guidelines, and will encourage the scout to select one of the other three options for this requirement if he isn't able to commit to taking care of the cache.

 

The requirement is to have the scout share the logs with the counselor. 30 days is reasonable for that purpose. It shouldn't take six months to earn a merit badge.

 

Regarding guidelines, From the Cache to Eagle page:

 

Starting a Cache to Eagle Series

If you're a BSA staff member or volunteer, start your own Cache to Eagle series! Read through the guidelines in the Get in the Game! toolkit on YourSource (Scouting.org/100years). YourSource is a password protected site. A user ID and password are provided to all members of the 100th Anniversary National Leadership Team.

I don't know what those guidelines state. Perhaps they are the geocaching.com guidelines, perhaps not. I can't see them.

 

But regardless, the point I/we are making in the last couple of posts is that the wording implies no more than a 30 day involvement. That does not mean that there won't be exceptions, or that the counselor won't make it clear that the involvement is of a longer duration. I read nothing whatsoever in any of these documents that states loud and clear that there is a long term responsibility involved in hiding a cache, and that bothers me.

 

You're conflating two very different things.

 

The Cache to Eagle has NOTHING at all to do with the requirements for the merit badge. The Cache to Eagle series is encouraging cache placement by adult scout leaders, not scouts.

 

The merit badge is an award that a youth member of the scouts must earn, and he MUST be guided by a merit badge counselor who is an experienced geocacher. And, as I have highlighted above, the merit badge requirements refer directly to the geocaching.com guidelines.

 

Geeze... could you possibly make that a little bolder and a little larger? No need to get into a shouting match here.

 

I never said nor, I think, implied that one has to do with the other. I merely pointed out that the Cache to Eagle site references a different guideline document (that may or may not be an identical copy of Groundspeak's guidelines).

[+GeoGeeBee]

Geeze... could you possibly make that a little bolder and a little larger? No need to get into a shouting match here.

 

I never said nor, I think, implied that one has to do with the other. I merely pointed out that the Cache to Eagle site references a different guideline document (that may or may not be an identical copy of Groundspeak's guidelines).

 

I apologize for "shouting." I made a comment about the merit badge requirements, and then you came back with a comment about Cache to Eagle... but looking back over the thread, I see that your comment was relevant and that there is active discussion on both subjects going on.

 

The Cache to Eagle guidelines include this:

 

"ALL GUIDELINES FOR CACHE PLACEMENT MUST BE FOLLOWED. See geocaching.com for

details"

 

(I'm not shouting, the all-caps bit appears that way in the .pdf file.)

 

Two bullet-points later, it says "Also, be sure to MAINTAIN the caches." (Again, caps are in the original.)

 

I just don't see the BSA nor any subset thereof encouraging irresponsible caching. And I sort of resent the implication that Scouting-related caches are abandoned any more than any other subset of caches.

[+L0ne.R]

Two bullet-points later, it says "Also, be sure to MAINTAIN the caches." (Again, caps are in the original.)

 

Are they talking to the child (or the Scout leader)? Do they expect a 10 year old to maintain a cache and its listing? A "NM" gets posted....is the kid supposed to make arrangements to have someone take him out to the site with supplies to replace the cracked container and soaked logbook?

[knowschad]

I just don't see the BSA nor any subset thereof encouraging irresponsible caching. And I sort of resent the implication that Scouting-related caches are abandoned any more than any other subset of caches.

Well, I'm sorry that you feel at all resentful, but this thread contains much anecdotal evidence by other cachers that have independently noticed the same issues that I have. We've even heard from several that are directly involved with scouting that have agreed that the problems we are discussing are very real. Feeling resentment or defensiveness is not going to solve the problems, but discussing them openly just may lead to an awareness that leads to the necessary changes.