Hider's challenge?

9.3k · January 31, 2010

I was perusing a few challenge caches the other day, (a Fizzy challenge, a Delorme challenge, a county challenge and a busy day challenge), when it dawned on me that there was a challenge type that I haven't seen before. Those four types of challenges all focus on what the seeker has found prior to logging the respective cache. Has there ever been a cache where the challenge is what the seeker has hidden prior to logging the cache? For instance, "Prior to logging a find on this cache, you must have hidden at least one multi, one puzzle, one letterbox hybrid and one Wherigo cache, and you must have hosted at least one event and one CITO."

I'm not seriously contemplating creating one of these, as I'm not a huge fan of challenge caches, but it did pique my curiosity. Presumably if someone were to submit such a cache they'd need to demonstrate that meeting the challenge was possible by owning one of each of the required types. I can't find anything in the guidelines prohibiting it. Wadda ya think? Would TPTB allow such a critter? Have you ever seen one?

6.7k · January 31, 2010

I seem to recall a similar idea being discussed in the past. The details are kind of fuzzy though. I think that TPTB said it was something that would be approved. But I am not sure.

I think it is a bad idea. There are enough caches out there with owners who don't maintain them. How many would be added to that list if people were hiding them just so they could log a cache?

8.6k · January 31, 2010

Hmmmmmm...

Sounds like an ALR, to me.

4.8k · January 31, 2010

Hmmmmmm...

Sounds like an ALR, to me.

It IS Geocaching related, so strictly speaking I wouldn't interpret it as an ALR. Although.....

Prior to logging a find on this cache, you must have hidden at least one multi, one puzzle, one letterbox hybrid and one Wherigo cache, and you must have hosted at least one event and one CITO.

I also seem to recall that there was some discussion somewhere that forbids this kind of requirement.

You might want to check with your Local Reviewer before you spend the time and expense of putting it together.

Good luck!

Edit spelling....darn keyboard.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Touchstone

6.7k · January 31, 2010

Hmmmmmm...

Sounds like an ALR, to me.

Well that is part of the question. Where does a geocaching related challenge end and an ALR begin?

14k · January 31, 2010

I was perusing a few challenge caches the other day, (a Fizzy challenge, a Delorme challenge, a county challenge and a busy day challenge), when it dawned on me that there was a challenge type that I haven't seen before. Those four types of challenges all focus on what the seeker has found prior to logging the respective cache. Has there ever been a cache where the challenge is what the seeker has hidden prior to logging the cache? For instance, "Prior to logging a find on this cache, you must have hidden at least one multi, one puzzle, one letterbox hybrid and one Wherigo cache, and you must have hosted at least one event and one CITO."

I'd exclude the Wherigo cache, as it would prevent anyone that didn't have one of the limited number of devices which support Wherigo caches from completing the challenge. It would be like saying, you can only log this cache if you own a Delorme GPS.

4.8k · January 31, 2010

I'd exclude the Wherigo cache, as it would prevent anyone that didn't have one of the limited number of devices which support Wherigo caches from completing the challenge. It would be like saying, you can only log this cache if you own a Delorme GPS.

Strictly speaking, there's nothing preventing anyone from creating a Wherigo Cache that doesn't have the hardware to run it. Someone could test the Cartridge in the Emulator, they just wouldn't be able to field test it.

38.2k · January 31, 2010

I doubt it would be published. Caches that require any hiding of caches to log a find are not allowed.

4.2k · January 31, 2010

I doubt it would be published. Caches that require any hiding of caches to log a find are not allowed.

i wish that there were stricter requirements for publishing "challenge caches"

i realize that some could take months or even years to complete but having nearly impossible requirements doesn't seem to be fair, yes yes the CO has discretion over what to ask for

also the "grandfathered" caches should be part of the requirements in challenge caches published after the date those types where grandfathered

just my opinion

here is an example

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...94-54e82deb3db0

6.5k · January 31, 2010

They are supposed to be challenging. To a certain extent the degree of challenge is up to the owner. Sometimes the ignore button can be your best friend.

As to the OP's proposed challenge-once again Briansnat is da man with da answer.

6k · January 31, 2010

Sounds like an ALR, to me.

I don't think the ALR rule applies except to traditional caches. If what you say were true then challenges would not exist at all.

5.7k · January 31, 2010

Hmmmmmm...

Sounds like an ALR, to me.

...which are permitted in the form of challenge caches. Whether a placed vs. found challenge would be accepted by the local admin is another question. Edited January 31, 2010 by ecanderson

3.1k · January 31, 2010

I'd exclude the Wherigo cache, as it would prevent anyone that didn't have one of the limited number of devices which support Wherigo caches from completing the challenge. It would be like saying, you can only log this cache if you own a Delorme GPS.

Strictly speaking, there's nothing preventing anyone from creating a Wherigo Cache that doesn't have the hardware to run it. Someone could test the Cartridge in the Emulator, they just wouldn't be able to field test it.

Very true. In fact, I created the cartridge for a friend so she could have a Wherigo in her portfolio.

3.1k · January 31, 2010

I doubt it would be published. Caches that require any hiding of caches to log a find are not allowed.

i wish that there were stricter requirements for publishing "challenge caches"

i realize that some could take months or even years to complete but having nearly impossible requirements doesn't seem to be fair, yes yes the CO has discretion over what to ask for

also the "grandfathered" caches should be part of the requirements in challenge caches published after the date those types where grandfathered

just my opinion

here is an example

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...94-54e82deb3db0

In our area, you have to demonstrate that you have completed the requirement or there is a reasonable expectation a significant number of cachers can complete the challenge. For example, I have a challenge that requires 100 Earth cache finds. There are 500 EC's within 200 km of the posted coordinates. So it is achievable by anyone who puts their mind to it

Edited January 31, 2010 by Tequila

4.2k · January 31, 2010

In our area, you have to demonstrate that you have completed the requirement or there is a reasonable expectation a significant number of cachers can complete the challenge. For example, I have a challenge that requires 100 Earth cache finds. There are 500 EC's within 200 km of the posted coordinates. So it is achievable by anyone who puts their mind to it

i am familiar with your Tequila: 81 Proof

that is a very achievable challenge, working on it

Edited January 31, 2010 by t4e

8k · January 31, 2010

I doubt it would be published. Caches that require any hiding of caches to log a find are not allowed.

Not exactly. Breeder caches that had an ALR of hiding a new cache in order to log a find were not allowed. I'm not sure whether CRs idea would fall into the same category.

22k · January 31, 2010

I doubt it would be published. Caches that require any hiding of caches to log a find are not allowed.

Not exactly. Breeder caches that had an ALR of hiding a new cache in order to log a find were not allowed. I'm not sure whether CRs idea would fall into the same category.

One is not selected as "Geocacher of the Decade" without good cause.

14k · January 31, 2010

I doubt it would be published. Caches that require any hiding of caches to log a find are not allowed.

i wish that there were stricter requirements for publishing "challenge caches"

i realize that some could take months or even years to complete but having nearly impossible requirements doesn't seem to be fair, yes yes the CO has discretion over what to ask for

also the "grandfathered" caches should be part of the requirements in challenge caches published after the date those types where grandfathered

just my opinion

here is an example

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...94-54e82deb3db0

In our area, you have to demonstrate that you have completed the requirement or there is a reasonable expectation a significant number of cachers can complete the challenge. For example, I have a challenge that requires 100 Earth cache finds. There are 500 EC's within 200 km of the posted coordinates. So it is achievable by anyone who puts their mind to it

Although there may be 200km earth caches within the posted coordinates of your challenge, that just means that those that actually live within a close proximity of the challenge cache have a reasonable opportunity to meet the requirements. For someone that lives outside the area, where earth caches are few and far between, that cache might not be achievable, even if they happened to be visiting your area. It's sort of like creating a puzzle cache that can only be solved if one is privy to local knowledge.

January 31, 2010

100 Earthcaches in an area wouldn't be impossible, it may take you many trips to complete the challenge and that may take several years but it is still a very completable challenge.

i think this one would be an interesting as long as those that went for it planned on maintaining what they hide..

14k · January 31, 2010

100 Earthcaches in an area wouldn't be impossible, it may take you many trips to complete the challenge and that may take several years but it is still a very completable challenge.

i think this one would be an interesting as long as those that went for it planned on maintaining what they hide..

As I indicated in a previous post how "completable" the challenge is depends a lot on the area. The OP indicated that there are 500 earth caches within 200km. A pocket query for earth caches within 200km of where I live shows 98 available (199 for Fort Wayne). When I picked an earth cache in South Dakota as a center point there were only 36 others within 200km.

Although I often check for, and try to find earth caches whenever I travel, even after three years in the game, I still have only 13 earth cache finds to my credit. At that rate, assuming I find earth caches at the same rate (just over 4 a year) , even if I increase my pace to 5 a year it's still would take me another 16 years to complete the challenge.

When people write about getting 8 FTFs in a day, or finding over 100 caches in a day, or finding 5000 caches, or many of the other numbers thrown out here, I often wonder if they realize that in many places where this game is played cache densities are significantly lower than where they may be coming from. 8 FTFs in a day? There have been fewer than 8 caches published within 20 miles of me in the past three months.

4.2k · January 31, 2010

I doubt it would be published. Caches that require any hiding of caches to log a find are not allowed.

Not exactly. Breeder caches that had an ALR of hiding a new cache in order to log a find were not allowed. I'm not sure whether CRs idea would fall into the same category.

what you mean "not exactly"? you're saying the same thing as briansnat lol

February 1, 2010

Well, I just placed out a cache that has a challenge to it, but not to complete before logging the cache. This challenge is to see if we can get the cache to a certain number of finds in the shortest time. I posted it as a challenge to all cachers to see if we can get 1000 finds on this cache.

GC23GTM

10.2k · February 1, 2010

Well, I just placed out a cache that has a challenge to it, but not to complete before logging the cache. This challenge is to see if we can get the cache to a certain number of finds in the shortest time. I posted it as a challenge to all cachers to see if we can get 1000 finds on this cache.

GC23GTM

Well, it's near HersheyPark and all, but I think you'll be waiting about 15 years before you see that counter hit 1,000 I imagine I'll be back in Hershey before then to find it and sign the log (it's been about 5 years).

Yeah, I've seen some "hider challenge" type caches back in the ALR days, but I'll agree with the Geocacher of the decade on this one.

8k · February 1, 2010

I doubt it would be published. Caches that require any hiding of caches to log a find are not allowed.

Not exactly. Breeder caches that had an ALR of hiding a new cache in order to log a find were not allowed. I'm not sure whether CRs idea would fall into the same category.

what you mean "not exactly"? you're saying the same thing as briansnat lol

You're right. I wrote this in the morning just before heading out for a day of caching. I was trying to make a distinction between caches that had an ALR of hiding a new cache in order to log a find and challenge cache that rewarded a geocacher for accomplishing something in the past that involved hiding caches. I forgot the obvious - if a cacher hasn't accomplished the challenge already they could hide additional caches in order to meet the challenge. While I still think there is a subtle difference between this and asking some to hide a new cache to claim a find, it would be difficult to describe. As Keystone pointed out perhaps there is a reason briansnat is cacher of the decade.

9.3k · February 1, 2010

I'm still not warming up to the idea. I think it would lead to folks placing caches simply to comply with the challenge, and that could result in some pretty lame hides. However, just to play Devil's Advocate, I don't think the ALR rules would apply here. As I understand it, ALRs are things that folks are required to do after they find a cache, such as wearing a silly hat and barking at the moon. In this case, just as with the Fizzy challenges and the Delorme challenges, the work would need to be done prior to logging a find. I think...

As for the cacher of the decade thing? I think Brian mugged Auntie Weasel and stole the trophy.

Just sayin...

4.8k · February 1, 2010

I don't think the ALR rules would apply here.

I completely agree. As stated in the Guidelines:

Typically they require the seeker to have previously met a reasonable geocaching-related qualification (Waymarking and Wherigo qualify too, of course)...

And certainly Hiding a Geocache is undeniably a "geocaching-related" activity.

I think it would lead to folks placing caches simply to comply with the challenge, and that could result in some pretty lame hides.

The earliest discussion around this issue that I can remember was back when the original Delorme in Northern California was Published. Back then there were maybe 2 or 3 pages that didn't have caches on them, and the Challenge outlined various ways to meet the requirements, which included placing caches (presumably to fill in the blank pages).

I believe that the issue came to a head during one of those Coin Challenges that was hosted by an offsite vendor, which required hiding a cache in order to qualify for the coin.

At any rate, that's kind of the background of the issue that I seem to recall.

20.7k · February 1, 2010

Sounds like an ALR, to me.

I don't think the ALR rule applies except to traditional caches. If what you say were true then challenges would not exist at all.

The ALR guideline applies to all physical caches, not just all traditional caches.

7.2k · February 1, 2010

I think if (the other) CR's challenge cache was not allowed then it would highlight a glaring inconsistency in the application of the guidelines. The argument of the possibility of hiding trache, or even only a temporary cache, is little different than someone bogus logging a cache in order to fill in that last criteria on finding challenges.

That's not to mention the trache that is placed simply to provide the opportunity for others to grab another smilie.

I personally don't like challenge caches. I wouldn't be for it, but saying that a hiding challenge is somehow different than a finding challenge considering everything else that goes on is a little, umm, off.

3.8k · February 1, 2010

I was perusing a few challenge caches the other day, (a Fizzy challenge, a Delorme challenge, a county challenge and a busy day challenge), when it dawned on me that there was a challenge type that I haven't seen before. Those four types of challenges all focus on what the seeker has found prior to logging the respective cache. Has there ever been a cache where the challenge is what the seeker has hidden prior to logging the cache? For instance, "Prior to logging a find on this cache, you must have hidden at least one multi, one puzzle, one letterbox hybrid and one Wherigo cache, and you must have hosted at least one event and one CITO."

I'm not seriously contemplating creating one of these, as I'm not a huge fan of challenge caches, but it did pique my curiosity. Presumably if someone were to submit such a cache they'd need to demonstrate that meeting the challenge was possible by owning one of each of the required types. I can't find anything in the guidelines prohibiting it. Wadda ya think? Would TPTB allow such a critter? Have you ever seen one?

Great, you just gave King Boreas several new ideas.. what were you thinking.

February 1, 2010

Great, you just gave King Boreas several new ideas.. what were you thinking.

Speaking of a new idea, has anyone seen a cache (mystery / puzzle) where you need to find a video and follow the video to reach the final coords? I'm working on one where you need to find a video hidden in the profile, then watch the video and follow it to the final location. I don't actually show you the hide spot, just the location. You still need to search for the container.

(it's not released yet, but has the okay)

Odie

4.8k · February 1, 2010

Great, you just gave King Boreas several new ideas.. what were you thinking.

Speaking of a new idea, has anyone seen a cache (mystery / puzzle) where you need to find a video and follow the video to reach the final coords? I'm working on one where you need to find a video hidden in the profile, then watch the video and follow it to the final location. I don't actually show you the hide spot, just the location. You still need to search for the container.

(it's not released yet, but has the okay)

Odie

And where is the GPS usage in this idea?

Nonetheless, I've seen a couple of Listings like that, but both used some creative use of scenes to briefly show numbers or items to count, that would help derive the Final coordinates, and therefore have the requisite GPS usage as suggested in the Guidelines. There has also been a somewhat similar idea that used Google Street View, which uses house addresses in kind of the same manner.

Sorry, a bit off topic, but good luck with the cache concept.

6.5k · February 1, 2010

Straying down this tangential line for one more post-I seem to recall one that gave you starting coords for where the video began,the video took you on a drive through a neighborhood bu was played at high speed on youtube or somewhere else. Then there were some other hoops to jump through at the ending location. That setup could provide adequate GPS usage for a cache listing.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of a challenge that doesn't comply with the guidelines and will not get published at geocaching.com.

24.7k · February 1, 2010

...Has there ever been a cache where the challenge is what the seeker has hidden prior to logging the cache? For instance, "Prior to logging a find on this cache, you must have hidden at least one multi, one puzzle, one letterbox hybrid and one Wherigo cache, and you must have hosted at least one event and one CITO."...

That's a variation of a breeder cache and they used to be not unheard of. I had a locationless that required you to "fill in the blanks" by putting a cache at the namsake of a quad map before you could log the find. Those were normally named after a key (if not interesting) geological feature of the quad.

Other themes used to exist. In time breeder cachers became disallowed and remaining such thoughts about doing one would be killed by the anti ALR rule. Though you did ponder the challenge exception to the ALR rules. The past ban would remain.

9.3k · February 1, 2010

That's a variation of a breeder cache

Wouldn't a breeder cache be distinguished by actions required after the find? Something along the lines of, "You must hide a cache in order to claim a find"? In this case, the required actions would all occur prior to the find, which I thought was the primary characteristic of a challenge cache.

February 2, 2010

Great, you just gave King Boreas several new ideas.. what were you thinking.

Speaking of a new idea, has anyone seen a cache (mystery / puzzle) where you need to find a video and follow the video to reach the final coords? I'm working on one where you need to find a video hidden in the profile, then watch the video and follow it to the final location. I don't actually show you the hide spot, just the location. You still need to search for the container.

(it's not released yet, but has the okay)

Odie

And where is the GPS usage in this idea?

Nonetheless, I've seen a couple of Listings like that, but both used some creative use of scenes to briefly show numbers or items to count, that would help derive the Final coordinates, and therefore have the requisite GPS usage as suggested in the Guidelines. There has also been a somewhat similar idea that used Google Street View, which uses house addresses in kind of the same manner.

Sorry, a bit off topic, but good luck with the cache concept.

Oh, the starting coords are there and then the final's coords are listed also somewhere in the video.

1.7k · February 2, 2010

A cacher here in England tried to set a challenge cache last year requiring finder to have hidden a number of different types and was told that Groundspeak does not allow caches where cache-setting is any part of the logging requirement

Hider's challenge?

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