Logging caches but not signing the logbook.

[+The George's]

Hi one of my caches involves using a phillips screwdriver to access the actual cache and logbook. I have clearly stated in the description that a screwdriver is needed. People have been logging it as found although they have not signed the book. I posted a note saying that please dont log as found unless you sign, but then it happens again. Should I remove the log or let it go? Advice please.

 

The cache is GC1XQN6

 

dont know how to link it!

[team tisri]

Technically speaking as I understand it you'd be within your rights to delete the logs if the people claiming it hadn't signed the book. Personally I only claim a "find" if I didn't sign the book if I was unable to (usually due to lack of working pen/cil) and on those rare occasions do something else to prove I was there, and send the reviewer a detailed description of the cache so they know I found it.

 

In this specific case to be honest I'd be a little wary of anything that said "needs a screwdriver". I tend to cache on foot or by bicycle and would be concerned that a screwdriver could be considered an offensive weapon if I was unlucky enough to get caught in any kind of bother.

 

Does the requirement to open the box with a screwdriver add anything to the cache? If it's something that's fundamental to the find by all means keep it, but if the cache would not be degraded by not needing the screwdriver I'd consider taking that feature off it.

[+Delta68]

I think I'd almost have been tempted to set it as a Mystery/Puzzle just to draw attention to the fact it's not a straight-forward as it may seem...

 

 

Mark

[+purple_pineapple]

Hi one of my caches involves using a phillips screwdriver to access the actual cache and logbook. I have clearly stated in the description that a screwdriver is needed. People have been logging it as found although they have not signed the book. I posted a note saying that please dont log as found unless you sign, but then it happens again. Should I remove the log or let it go? Advice please.

 

The cache is GC1XQN6

 

dont know how to link it!

 

I have caches like this, requiring screwdrivers or socket sets, and I also say the log book MUST be signed. Although I don't check very often, I would delete a log if the book wasn't signed.

 

Note that the basic requirement of finding a cache is to sign a log book. If you haven't signed it, you haven't found it! the next step would be to 'see' the cache and therefore log it, despite it being halfway up a cliff!

 

Having said that, its your cache to with as yo please (within the guidelines). However if you don't check on these things, then folks that do it properly might feel a little aggrieved!

 

Just my thoughts!

 

dave

 

edit to say to delta, that can be a good idea, but I'm not sure if GC guidelines state that if the cache is at the top coords, then it is a trad. Someone else can answer that! My own caches were specifically put out NOT to be puzzles, and is part of the theme.

Edited January 29, 2010 by purple_pineapple

[+Teacosies]

I've found that providing info on the cache page can be quite often ignored as lots of people don't take a print out of the cache page with them to the cache and so cant follow the obvious instructions or clues they need.

 

I would think that "offensive weapon" would be lessened by a print out as you would be "tooled up" for a specific purpose that would be reasonably confirmed with the GPS and written instructions concerning what you were doing which can be confirmed via the associated web page.

Would this give you a reasonable excuse.

 

I await the above being used as an cover story by the local scum

[GermanSailor]

Should I remove the log or let it go? Advice please.

 

The cache is GC1XQN6

I only once deleted a found-it log. The person logged online that he didn't find the cache but posted a photo of the location.

 

Writing online that you didn't read the listing AND didn't sign the logbook is impudent and asks for a delete by the owner. I never cross check the paper with the online log. But in such an obvious case, I would definitely delete the log.

 

GermanSailor

[lakeuk]

Another vote for making it a puzzle so it's clear it's something out of the ordinary.

 

I have logged finds on caches I've not sign but always taken a photo to prove why I can't sign the paper log

 

Undecided on whether to delete the logs, I'd probable leave it be, change to puzzle then delete any new unsigned logs

 

In the summer I found a hard cache which the previous 'finders' hadn't signed, it was obvious reading their posts that they hadn't found, just sent the owner a photo of the log and left him to decide what to do. Sometimes the game is taken too seriously

[+t4e]

 

In this specific case to be honest I'd be a little wary of anything that said "needs a screwdriver". I tend to cache on foot or by bicycle and would be concerned that a screwdriver could be considered an offensive weapon if I was unlucky enough to get caught in any kind of bother.

 

 

why would a screwdriver be seen as an "offensive weapon"?

 

i carry a pen than that could be considered an offensive weapon, if you go by bike i sure hope you carry tools to fix it if something should happen, those can be considered a weapon

 

most cachers will have "tools" in their backpacks when going hiking in the woods

 

now being in some public place trying to unscrew something would certainly look suspicious

 

as for the OP's question, afaic you don't sign the log you didn't find it...of course as mentioned before there are few circumstances where i would accept a "find" log without signing...if cache is frozen in place and can't be removed without damaging it, contents are soaked etc...even when i didn't have a pen i took a picture of the logbook with the latest signatures and posted that

 

 

ooh and i don't agree with making it a "puzzle" because its NOT

Edited January 29, 2010 by t4e

[team tisri]

 

In this specific case to be honest I'd be a little wary of anything that said "needs a screwdriver". I tend to cache on foot or by bicycle and would be concerned that a screwdriver could be considered an offensive weapon if I was unlucky enough to get caught in any kind of bother.

 

 

why would a screwdriver be seen as an "offensive weapon"?

 

i carry a pen than that could be considered an offensive weapon, if you go by bike i sure hope you carry tools to fix it if something should happen, those can be considered a weapon

 

most cachers will have "tools" in their backpacks when going hiking in the woods

 

now being in some public place trying to unscrew something would certainly look suspicious

 

When the laws on offensive weapons seem to be arbitrary at best (e.g. as I understand it a 1-inch pocket knife with a locking blade is classed as offensive while a 3-inch pocket knife with a non-locking blade is not) I'd rather not take the chance with something that not only could be used to stab someone but has been used in a number of assaults.

 

I don't carry screwdrivers etc to fix the bike - if anything serious enough to require major repair happened I'd be on the bus/train/taxi home with it. My (small, folding) Swiss Army knife has a small flat-head screwdriver which has always been enough for anything I've needed to tweak.

 

That said a screwdriver handle (with a blunt end) and a collection of screwdriver bits should be safe enough. It's just a question of carrying them as a matter of routine.

[+Fuchsiamagic]

I'm still puzzling over why you need to keep the lid screwed on. It's not going to deter any muggles who would take the entire box! If you're worrying about people not signing the log, just put a number inside the lid and ask the finder to email it to you otherwise their log will be deleted. It all seems a bit unnecessary to me...

[+t4e]

 

In this specific case to be honest I'd be a little wary of anything that said "needs a screwdriver". I tend to cache on foot or by bicycle and would be concerned that a screwdriver could be considered an offensive weapon if I was unlucky enough to get caught in any kind of bother.

 

 

why would a screwdriver be seen as an "offensive weapon"?

 

i carry a pen than that could be considered an offensive weapon, if you go by bike i sure hope you carry tools to fix it if something should happen, those can be considered a weapon

 

most cachers will have "tools" in their backpacks when going hiking in the woods

 

now being in some public place trying to unscrew something would certainly look suspicious

 

When the laws on offensive weapons seem to be arbitrary at best (e.g. as I understand it a 1-inch pocket knife with a locking blade is classed as offensive while a 3-inch pocket knife with a non-locking blade is not) I'd rather not take the chance with something that not only could be used to stab someone but has been used in a number of assaults.

 

I don't carry screwdrivers etc to fix the bike - if anything serious enough to require major repair happened I'd be on the bus/train/taxi home with it. My (small, folding) Swiss Army knife has a small flat-head screwdriver which has always been enough for anything I've needed to tweak.

 

That said a screwdriver handle (with a blunt end) and a collection of screwdriver bits should be safe enough. It's just a question of carrying them as a matter of routine.

 

maybe laws are different in UK, but not here in Canada...we're a Peacekeeping Nation, we only have a "Knife Legislation"

 

as i said, i carry various tools in my backpack

 

as for taking public transport if your bike needs major repairs, well that's fine if you go around town and stay close to civilization, but we go in the woods with the bikes and if it needs major repair 10KM away from civilization than i wanna be able to at least temporarily fix it so i can ride it back instead of walking

[+JeremyR]

Aaaaanyway, somewhere back on topic, the golden rules of the game are this:

Sign the logbook.

Take and leave something if you want.

Write about it online.

 

If they don't do the first and most important of the three, then delete the log. Simple as that. It could be argued that you're required to delete the log as part of your cache maintenance duties:

The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

I also agree that you need to take some action on your listing to make it clear there's something extra. Either make it a puzzle/unknown (reviewer help required to do that) or up the difficulty rating. People could justifiably expect to walk up to a 2-star diff rated cache, find it and sign it without any problem. If people seek a 4-star diff rated cache expecting to be able to just walk up and sign it, that's their own silly fault if they get there and find they can't

[+*mouse*]

Given that you've made it perfectly clear on the cache page that a screwdriver is needed and that you expect the log to be signed, I would say delete delete delete!

 

I have a cache that suffers in the same way. It's 10 ft up a tree and many people log it as found without signing the log but claim it as they can see it.

That's not the point of the cache - I want to make the cache a challenge and the attributes and D/T ratings make it perfectly clear that this cache requires more effort than most, so I always delete these logs, but I also email the finder and explain why I've done it and invite them to visit again and log it properly. So far nobody has complained and nearly all have gone back and logged it properly.

[+*mouse*]

Oh and I think people are being silly worrying about carrying something like a screwdriver. Ok, so in theory and under certain circumstances it could be seen as an offensive weapon or you could be accused of 'going equiped', but this sort of legislation is what the police usually only use when the need a reason to pull someone in - trust me they don't go out targeting random geocachers!!! I have a multi tool I carry all the time (even in my handbag at work) and it's a great thing to have when you're out caching.

[+Moote]

Maybe the Difficulty requires pushing up a little, as you require specialist equipment.

 

As for the argument of a screwdriver being an offensive weapon, I find that had to believe, as you have a reason for carrying it, and if you are on a bike 2 reasons. I think your local Plod would find it difficult to stop and search you unless you have previous

[+Andy33]

I don’t see a problem in needing tools to retrieve or open a cache but the cache page needs to be clear as to what is required.

 

This cache leaves you in no doubt that tools will be needed GC1V4XQ

 

As to signing the log, yes this is a requirement unless for some reason it is wet, missing etc but then I would expect the finder to explain in their log why it was not signed.

[+Happy Humphrey]

I think that the screwdriver requirement should be made a bit more prominent, and perhaps the difficulty increased to 3 to reflect the fact that you might need to check the cache listing. I wouldn't feel too bad about putting a (carefully worded) warning on the page that logs without signatures will be deleted too; it's meant to be a game, with signing the log the target, so people should regard these rules sympathetically.

 

Pity the cache wasn't there last time I was in the area; I think I went quite close by...

[+MartyBartfast]

I don't see a problem with you deleting the logs if you wish, just gently explain about not signing the log and invite them to relog it once they've signed the log.

 

I would probably have created it as a mystery/puzzle, this will encourage people to read the cach page before heading off for it. I would also upthe difficulty a bit to cover "requires special equipment", and make the screwdriver requirement more prominent on the web page, maybe add a picture of a screwdriver, which is going to make the requirement obvious even at a cursory glance. E.G.

 

You will need one of these

 

[+Bear and Ragged]

Delete!

 

Up the cache rating.

"Screwdriver needed" in a more prominent position on the page.

 

GCM80G All Tooled Up

[+Munkeh]

I think that the screwdriver requirement should be made a bit more prominent, and perhaps the difficulty increased to 3 to reflect the fact that you might need to check the cache listing. I wouldn't feel too bad about putting a (carefully worded) warning on the page that logs without signatures will be deleted too; it's meant to be a game, with signing the log the target, so people should regard these rules sympathetically.

 

Pity the cache wasn't there last time I was in the area; I think I went quite close by...

 

I didn't know you went caching with Mrs Blorenge

[+natterjacktoad]

No question. Delete the logs. Otherwise it's unfair on cachers who have bothered to adhere to the cache requirements. Otherwise, I can't see any difference between this and trolling along to a 5/5* extreme cache and logging it as a find without bringing the equipment and undertaking the challenge.

I've been to a couple of caches where a screwdriver was required. First one I had forgotten to bring one but improvised with a key. I now carry a double-ended keyring screwdriver - £1 from Halfords and not an offensive weapon by any stretch of the imagination!

 

Cache owners design these 'special' caches to offer a challenge which is completely devalued if cachers don't bother to do it properly.

 

One of my caches was logged by someone who hadn't signed the log book. It was a very distinctive cache and I would have at least expected an email explaining why they hadn't logged and describing the cache to prove they had been there. I put a lot of time and effort into designing some of my caches and they aren't for people to log without trying.

[+currykev]

Posting a note to say you'll delete such logs doesn't seem sufficient.

Put it on the cache page... IN BOLD

 

Be careful carrying a screwdriver around.

You should be safe unless you happen to be in London with a camera around your neck.

[team tisri]

One of my caches was logged by someone who hadn't signed the log book. It was a very distinctive cache and I would have at least expected an email explaining why they hadn't logged and describing the cache to prove they had been there. I put a lot of time and effort into designing some of my caches and they aren't for people to log without trying.

 

Indeed... I logged a Find without signing the log book on a cache in Virginia - the reason I couldn't sign the book was because we were on our way back to the airport and all the pens were in the depths of suitcases somewhere. The owners contacted me almost immediately to ask me to describe the cache (theirs was also a very unusual one) and when I gave them enough detail to confirm I had found it (as well as the decoy!) they posted a note to confirm they were satisfied with my find.

 

If there's a genuine reason why you can't sign the log having retrieved the cache I don't see any reason why you shouldn't claim it - if the pen doesn't work or the log is too wet to sign or some such. But it may need to be accompanied with evidence that you retrieved the cache - even for a 5x5 cache I'd be inclined to regard a photograph of yourself in position, holding the cache with the contents clearly visible as proof you'd met the challenge and retrieved it.

[team tisri]

Posting a note to say you'll delete such logs doesn't seem sufficient.

Put it on the cache page... IN BOLD

 

Exactly - within five logs a posted note will disappear and if people didn't see it they have the perfect excuse not to have complied.

 

Be careful carrying a screwdriver around.

You should be safe unless you happen to be in London with a camera around your neck.

 

Er... yes, officer, you see I need the screwdriver to fix my camera...

[+reddeeps]

I have caches that need a screwdriver. I state it clearly on the cache page and so far have not had any problems.

[+Gooner]

Hi one of my caches involves using a phillips screwdriver to access the actual cache and logbook. I have clearly stated in the description that a screwdriver is needed. People have been logging it as found although they have not signed the book. I posted a note saying that please dont log as found unless you sign, but then it happens again. Should I remove the log or let it go? Advice please.

 

The cache is GC1XQN6

 

dont know how to link it!

 

I have completed this cache, and totally missed the instructions to take a phillips screwdriver to get into the cache! I was fortunate that I went to the cache in my work van so had a screwdriver on board so it wasn't a wasted journey, however if i didn't have a screwdriver then in my opinion I would have had no right to log it as a find and would have recorded a note to say I had visited but been unsuccessful and then returned another time to fully complete!

 

I think that your best option would be to highlight the need for the screwdriver (CAPS AND BOLD) and possibly even include the above picture just to be on the safe side!

 

And I agree with deleting the logs of those that haven't fully completed the requirements and signed the log!

[+NickandAliandEliza]

Hi one of my caches involves using a phillips screwdriver to access the actual cache and logbook. I have clearly stated in the description that a screwdriver is needed. People have been logging it as found although they have not signed the book. I posted a note saying that please dont log as found unless you sign, but then it happens again. Should I remove the log or let it go? Advice please.

 

The cache is GC1XQN6

 

dont know how to link it!

 

I have completed this cache, and totally missed the instructions to take a phillips screwdriver to get into the cache! I was fortunate that I went to the cache in my work van so had a screwdriver on board so it wasn't a wasted journey, however if i didn't have a screwdriver then in my opinion I would have had no right to log it as a find and would have recorded a note to say I had visited but been unsuccessful and then returned another time to fully complete!

 

I think that your best option would be to highlight the need for the screwdriver (CAPS AND BOLD) and possibly even include the above picture just to be on the safe side!

 

And I agree with deleting the logs of those that haven't fully completed the requirements and signed the log!

 

I can think of someone else who says, 'Errr......I deed nout szee it'. You're obviously infected. I'd suggest moving back to Woolwich!

[+sTeamTraen]

Posting a note to say you'll delete such logs doesn't seem sufficient.

Put it on the cache page... IN BOLD

Two words: paperless caching

 

A lot of people don't always read the cache page of a Trad *raises hand*, and with devices like the GeomateJr, a lot more people are going to be caching paperless without even the experience typically associated (yes, I know...) with a Premium Membership, which used to be fairly essential for going paperless.

 

There's no formal requirement to make this a Mystery/Puzzle cache, but it will save the cache owner a lot of agonising decisions about deleting logs.

Edited January 30, 2010 by sTeamTraen

[+Delta68]

Two words: paperless caching

 

A lot of people don't always read the cache page of a Trad *raises hand*...

 

Yup! We often don't read the pages for Trads either.

This sometimes leads to surprises (GC1PPT3 UK Mega Series 2 051 springs to mind )

 

If the Cache has an unusual/interesting name we'd be more likely to read the page description.

We found one today called 'The Leper's Well' (GC236HX) It's a drive by micro but the name alone made us read more...

 

 

 

Mark

[+Squiffs]

...

Edited January 30, 2010 by Squiffs

[+zurichuk]

...

 

Blimey, 4 years to make first post and still most people missed it

[+currykev]

I usually have a screwdriver after a days caching.

Double vodka please love!

[+richard701]

There has been times when I have logged caches where I didn't sign the log, but there has always been a reason, log too wet, log full or even no pen. In such cases I have always taken a photo of the log book and posted it to actually prove that I had retrieved the cache and log properly. If I don't get the cache and logbook in my hand, then to me it's not a find.

 

This weekend I visited a cache where the cache was up a tree. I could see it but given the temperature was sub-zero I wasn't prepared to climb the tree and get the cache in hand. To me that's not a find, if I want to log that cache then I'll need to go back and actually retrieve it.

 

I think you are well within your rights to delete the online find as the cacher hasn't given you evidence of actually finding and retrieving the cache.

[+purple_pineapple]

This weekend I visited a cache where the cache was up a tree. I could see it but given the temperature was sub-zero I wasn't prepared to climb the tree and get the cache in hand. To me that's not a find, if I want to log that cache then I'll need to go back and actually retrieve it.

 

you certainly will!

[+third-degree-witch]

If it were my cache i would delete the 'find' as void...simple as

[+The George's]

ok thanks for the advice.i was trying to make the cache a bit more interesting than your standard tupperware pot. The hide is not an actual hide but is nicely disguised(i think).I will add the wording SCREWDRIVER NEEDED in bold on the cache page and mention that any person who does not sign log will have there find removed. Just didnt want to appear too bolshy.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[+Original A1]

This weekend I visited a cache where the cache was up a tree. I could see it but given the temperature was sub-zero I wasn't prepared to climb the tree and get the cache in hand. To me that's not a find, if I want to log that cache then I'll need to go back and actually retrieve it.

I had a similar situation, but I was not physically able to reach up and get the cache as I literally wasn't tall enough, even when climbing the bits that needed to be climbed (would have needed a step ladder for the last foot or so). I e-mailed the owners and described what I'd found/seen and they were kind enough to let me log it.

 

[+Renegade Knight]

Hi one of my caches involves using a phillips screwdriver to access the actual cache and logbook. I have clearly stated in the description that a screwdriver is needed. People have been logging it as found although they have not signed the book. I posted a note saying that please dont log as found unless you sign, but then it happens again. Should I remove the log or let it go? Advice please.

 

The cache is GC1XQN6

 

dont know how to link it!

 

You own it. Your call. It's work to check logs and delete finds that aren't noted. However it's perfectly valid and allowed on this site.

[+maxkim]

We paperless cache as well and I would be pretty p****d off at getting to GZ and being thwarted at the last... but it happens. Swiss Army knives don't sort everything... LOL. But I wouldn't claim a find if I hadn't got the log... But I have also seen caches like this that have got broken and need maintenance.... Which makes the point of making it clear on the cache page,,, Just a thought. Cheers MaxKim.

[+Hampk]

I followed a cacher round a trail in Cheshire some while back - something like 40 caches in total, and he never signed a single log.. Given that he's now recorded something like 1800 finds, who is he trying to kid?

 

DELETE!!