Before I Become Jaded and Cynical

[+NeecesandNephews]

My Wife and I just started Geocaching. Story of our introduction to the hobby is posted on another thread so I won't go into it again.

 

Here is a question I have and I am looking for opinions. (hope I don't regret this).

 

There is a cache right behind our property. We signed the log and it was sort of our first. I don't really consider it our first real find as we muggled another couple who showed it to us. That couple introduced us to Geocaching and signed right ahead of us. This has been the experience we have had on every cache (all 8 of them lol) we have found. We found their name on the log ahead of us.

Because it is right behind us, I clicked on the option to "watch this cache". I recieved email notification another person logged online that they had found it. I left some swag and wanted to see what they chose to take, if anything. Nothing was mentioned in the online log.

Upon checking the cache, there was no name under ours on the log. Everything I put in the cache was still there. So... I began to wonder if the person who logged online," found it" actually DID.

I sent him an friendly email reminding him he did not sign the log, and was very upbeat and pleasant in the way I said it.

Received a response that " he signed the log with another name"!!!! See above. No name on the log after ours. He posted his "find" several days after ours.

So... my question to others is... do you actually lay your hands on the cache... sign the log... and then post online that you found it??? Or do you just log a "found it" when all you actually did was a driveby???

I guess I dont understand ( and probably shouldnt care) why someone would post a "found it" when they really did not.

My wife and I posted a DNF on one of ours, and after the owner giving us a hint, we went back the next day and found it and signed the log in the cache. We posted both online.

I guess it took some of the enjoyment of that find away when this goober posts "found it" and his name is not on the log. He posted this on the online logs of three different caches, and his name did not appear on any of the logs we found and signed, supposedly after he did. So my wife says "well if thats how it works, I don't think I care to play... whats the point?"

I suppose what I am asking is... how do others feel about this sort of practice???

[+sseegars]

You will hear everything from that's just wrong to people play the game the way they want too. Don't let someone else's way that they play the game deter you from a great sport. This isn't, for me, about the smilies or "points". I've met cachers with 10 finds that have a better grasp of the sport than one cacher that I know that has over 10000 finds.

 

It's like anything else in life, you get what you want out of it. Welcome to geocaching though!

[+NatureGuy360]

Welcome to geocaching, and congratulations on opening your first can of worms!

 

I am sure other geocachers will chime in with their own thoughts, and opinions. However, here is an entire forum full of examples of what you just described.

 

Find It = Didn't Find It

[+Opalblade]

I've been geocaching for three months and the only time I've ever seen a discrepancy is the other way around - some people write on the physical log and then don't enter it on the online log. They may have forgotten or been trying it out for the first time with a friend.

 

Given from what I've read on the forums, it does happen from time to time that someone cheats, gets all excited about their numbers and fake online logs some finds. I just picture a young guy somewhere getting into a bit of an adrenaline rush one day and logging tons of find its until they have some nice round number. My impression is that it is a rare, isolated incident. Because it possibly happening to this cache that is special to you is bugging you, you could send an email to the cache owner to let them know of your suspicions and he/she may follow up with the person and delete their online log if they feel it's warranted.

 

If the bad behavior of one person is enough to deter your wife from geocaching, my thought would be that maybe she isn't enjoying it very much and is (subconsciously maybe) looking for a reason to stop doing it. The vast majority of geocachers play fair and have a wonderful sense of community in my experience

 

Do keep in mind there are some situations where you might not see a name in a written log after yours. They may have changed their caching name (I did that after my first few wks). They might not have had a pen on them that day. They might have written higher up amongst older signatures because they were in a hurry or just missed the last page. They might have gotten mixed up about which cache they were really at - I just did this yesterday. There were two very similarly named caches right by each other and I posted a found it on the wrong one. I know the cache owner so I just emailed her to let her know what I did, and deleted it of course

[+leitko4]

If you were the cache owner, by all means, delete the log if you know it's fake.

 

Otherwise, just play the game according to your own integrity. These other folks are just cheating themselves and missing out on the real fun. Don't let their shenanigans spoil what you take away from the experience.

[+buttaskotch]

There are cheaters in every game.

Don't let them bother you, I am sure you can find a lot of people that play the way you do at an event. Focus on building those relationships and let this go.

[+sbell111]

Is it possible that he found the cache previously and merely logged it with the wrong date? Either way, by emailing people about finds made to caches that you do not own, you aren't going to make friends.

[+ArcherDragoon]

I don't mean this to sound that way it does...so don't take it the way it sounds...

 

If they are not your caches...I wouldn't worry about them in I were you...

 

ok...with that done...

 

When you were looking at the log...did you look through the entire log...many people will just sign where ever there is room...not in an particular order...

 

And yes...there are those out there that will just go about posting "Found It" on caches...mostly just to mess with people...don't worry about it and have fun...

[4wheelin_fool]

The logbook originally was intended as communication to other cachers and the cache owner.

 

Eventually it turned into a sign-in sheet that very rarely is audited or checked.

 

Send a note to the cache owner and tell them about it. Someone could be cheating on their spouse and creating a false alibi.

[+SgtSue]

He may have signed before you and didn't adjust the dates when he logged in. He may have signed somewhere else in the log book instead of right after you. Probably a million explainations for him signing and you not seeing it. That is why it the cache owner's responsiblity to monitor those who log a find. But it does make you wonder. As for my friends and myself, if we do not sign the log ourselves it's not a find. Doesn't matter if it was in my hands and couldn't get it open or any other reason. For us that makes things very straight forward and simple.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

<snip>

I guess I dont understand ( and probably shouldnt care) why someone would post a "found it" when they really did not.

<snip>

 

While we agree with you in your posting, the portion highlighted is really what matters.

 

Each cacher has their own opinion, and they are going to go about their caching hobby as they see fit.

 

If it were your cache, you would have the option if you so desire, to delete their find. Many CO's wouldn't do it even then. As it is not your cache, you really shouldn't let it bother you, there are better things to worry about.

 

It might be nice if everybody did it your way (or my way, for that matter), but it ain't gonna happen. Based upon that, work at keeping the jading and cynicism in check. You'll be a better person for it!

 

Now, get out there, do cache the way you see fit, and have fun!

 

EDIT: BTW, there is no requirement to log online at all!

Edited January 28, 2010 by Gitchee-Gummee

[+BlueDeuce]

I guess I dont understand ( and probably shouldnt care) why someone would post a "found it" when they really did not.

 

It's okay to care but it's best to leave such verification to the cache owner.

 

Know that most cachers do find the cache and sign the log, just shake your head at those who don't and know they are missing out on the best part of caching - finding the cache.

[jholly]

He posted this on the online logs of three different caches, and his name did not appear on any of the logs we found and signed, supposedly after he did. So my wife says "well if thats how it works, I don't think I care to play... whats the point?"

 

Here is the thing you really need to think about. Just what do you think is the point of geocaching? Is it to get the most smileys or have fun? If you think the point is found counts, you might as well quit right now because 100's if not 1000's of people have you beat and there is no hope of "wining", Alamogul has over 37,000 and still going. If it is to have fun and see neat places then I don't understand why this practice should bother you. It should in no way have an impact on your fun.

 

Another thing that will probably get your knickers in a bunch is that there are people that find the caches and maybe sign the logbook but don't log on line. They really don't care about found counts.

 

Also if you put neat swag in a cache and then rush out to see what I took your going to be very disappointed and confused. I don't swap swag, I just sign the logbook and move travelers. If some one claims a find on the cache but did not sign the logbook I really don't care because it does not change my game one iota.

[knowschad]

To answer your question about "drive-by" caching... no. That is not done. If you claim the find online, you must sign the log. There are rare exceptions, such as when a cache is frozen in ice, and can't be retrieved without breaking it, (etc.) but these are claimed with the blessing of the cache owner, who can also disallow them.

[+PokerLuck]

A problem with falsely logging a find is that it creates the impression that the cache is still there. When I have a hard time finding a cache, I check the online logs to see if someone else found it recently. False logs ruin the ability to trust the information.

[+tozainamboku]

I guess I dont understand ( and probably shouldnt care) why someone would post a "found it" when they really did not.

My wife and I posted a DNF on one of ours, and after the owner giving us a hint, we went back the next day and found it and signed the log in the cache. We posted both online.

I guess it took some of the enjoyment of that find away when this goober posts "found it" and his name is not on the log. He posted this on the online logs of three different caches, and his name did not appear on any of the logs we found and signed, supposedly after he did. So my wife says "well if thats how it works, I don't think I care to play... whats the point?"

I suppose what I am asking is... how do others feel about this sort of practice???

The point is to have fun. If you're having fun going out and finding caches, signing the logs, and sharing your experiences online by logging found or DNF for the caches you've looked for then you'll be fine. You might from time to time come across somebody who, for whatever reason, finds a need to post Found It logs for caches they never looked for. You will sit and wonder why anyone would do such a thing - after all how much fun could it be to sit at home at a computer post false logs on caches when you could be out and actually finding them. And because this is the case you will find that such cases are rare and that the people who do this will general get tired and stop doing after a few days. In fact you wil find that there are far more people who will find caches and sign their names in the physical log and then never go online to post a Found It log. For them the fun is finding the caches and online logging is unneccessary.

 

Part of the guidelines for cache owners say that the cache owner is responsible for the quality control of posts to the cache page. This includes deleting any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements. Rather than sending email to the person who claims the find, you might instead email the cache owner to let them know you think a log is bogus. It is up to the cache owner to decide whether to delete the log or not.

 

There are many reasons why a cacher's name might not be in the physical log. They may have signed with a different name (often a group caching together will sign with a group name to save time and space in the log). They may have forgotten a pen or pencil and none was in the cache. The log sheet may have been wet and they couldn't write on it. They may have found the cache a long time ago and are just getting around to logging it now (sometimes people will get a new account for some reason - caching teams breaking up for example - and go back to relog all their old finds under the new account). They may just have forgotten to sign. Some individuals would not claim a find in these situations. They believe that you must sign to claim a find. I disagree with this view and I think most cache owners do as well. A signature is proof that a cacher actually found the cache, but a cache owner is certainly allowed to accept a cacher's word that he found the cache with an explanation of why he or she didn't sign the physical log.

[+DragonsWest]

A couple of geocachers with thousands of finds came through my area and I was stunned to see them both log finds on a cache I know was missing during that time. I think they just rubberstamp and count the caches, whether they really did find and sign log or not.

 

The other side of the geocoin is people who visit and take trackables, such as travel bugs, geocoins, etc and never log them. I expect some fall into the hands of hoarders, who think this kind of antisocial behavior is justified as long as they have something shiny to look at in their binder or toy box, while others are held by people who don't take the time to learn how trackables work or hold them, but cache infrequently or never again.

 

To their credit, however, by far the majority of cachers are good people and intend no wrong and do their best to fairly log their visits, trade swag evenly (or leave better), maintain a cache in need (an extra log, some tape on container, improve cover, etc.) and move trackables about.

 

OP may wish to find an organisation of cachers in his/her neck of the woods. It's always good to connect here, but improves the fun and community of cachers by joining with other cachers.

[+NeecesandNephews]

Just for the record... I was simply asking out or curiosity if this was a common practice. I am VERY new to the hobby.

Myself... I find the thrill of the hunt as much fun as the actual find. I live my life trying to keep a positive outlook. We have enough negativity in this world for all of us.

My wife is very supportive of anything that brings me happiness, although she does not hunt game with me. I am including her in this hobby to encourage her to participate with me in any outdoor activity, and at the same time enjoying some quality time together.

I realize people have different ways of approaching things, and what others accept as "ok" does not and should not influence my opinion.

I wasn't as much criticizing someone elses opinion on how they should play, as I was just asking if this is how its done.

Thanks for all the replies!!! I am not playing for the "numbers" or anything besides a sense of accomplishment in achieving the "find".

To me...(and I do NOT mean to offend anyone) its a question of character. If you cheat at something so simple as a game... do you excercise this same mindset in your entire life??? Not trying to start a philosophical discussion here... it was a rhetorical question.

Its not my cache... I don't really care... just curious about the unknown aspects of the game.

Like I said... I am new... and have spent hours pouring over all the Guidelines, forum posts, and logs on the caches near us.

Guess I just want to learn the " common practices" in playing.

I have already concluded that this is a hobby I can thoroughly enjoy , and plan on playing regardless. I just wanted to get others "take" on this subject.

I hope I wasn't misunderstood on the reason I posted this question. I don't want to appear too serious in my attitude towards Geocaching... its a game!!! And I play for the fun of it!!!

Like I said.... I was just curious. That and I find myself with a lot of free time today since we are having an ice storm. LOL Thought I would pose the questions... thats all.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

OP may wish to find an organisation of cachers in his/her neck of the woods. It's always good to connect here, but improves the fun and community of cachers by joining with other cachers.

 

Excellent suggestion. Meet up with others that do love the game!

[+NeecesandNephews]

I guess I dont understand ( and probably shouldnt care) why someone would post a "found it" when they really did not.

My wife and I posted a DNF on one of ours, and after the owner giving us a hint, we went back the next day and found it and signed the log in the cache. We posted both online.

I guess it took some of the enjoyment of that find away when this goober posts "found it" and his name is not on the log. He posted this on the online logs of three different caches, and his name did not appear on any of the logs we found and signed, supposedly after he did. So my wife says "well if thats how it works, I don't think I care to play... whats the point?"

I suppose what I am asking is... how do others feel about this sort of practice???

The point is to have fun. If you're having fun going out and finding caches, signing the logs, and sharing your experiences online by logging found or DNF for the caches you've looked for then you'll be fine. You might from time to time come across somebody who, for whatever reason, finds a need to post Found It logs for caches they never looked for. You will sit and wonder why anyone would do such a thing - after all how much fun could it be to sit at home at a computer post false logs on caches when you could be out and actually finding them. And because this is the case you will find that such cases are rare and that the people who do this will general get tired and stop doing after a few days. In fact you wil find that there are far more people who will find caches and sign their names in the physical log and then never go online to post a Found It log. For them the fun is finding the caches and online logging is unneccessary.

 

Part of the guidelines for cache owners say that the cache owner is responsible for the quality control of posts to the cache page. This includes deleting any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements. Rather than sending email to the person who claims the find, you might instead email the cache owner to let them know you think a log is bogus. It is up to the cache owner to decide whether to delete the log or not.

 

There are many reasons why a cacher's name might not be in the physical log. They may have signed with a different name (often a group caching together will sign with a group name to save time and space in the log). They may have forgotten a pen or pencil and none was in the cache. The log sheet may have been wet and they couldn't write on it. They may have found the cache a long time ago and are just getting around to logging it now (sometimes people will get a new account for some reason - caching teams breaking up for example - and go back to relog all their old finds under the new account). They may just have forgotten to sign. Some individuals would not claim a find in these situations. They believe that you must sign to claim a find. I disagree with this view and I think most cache owners do as well. A signature is proof that a cacher actually found the cache, but a cache owner is certainly allowed to accept a cacher's word that he found the cache with an explanation of why he or she didn't sign the physical log.

Thank you!!!! I believe you understood the basis for my question!!! I agree with you in that I don't understand why someone would just sit and log finds from home, without ever going outside, (not that that is what I am implying happened in this instance) But what would be the point of that???

Thank you for the positive reinforcement!!!!!!

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Is it possible that he found the cache previously and merely logged it with the wrong date? Either way, by emailing people about finds made to caches that you do not own, you aren't going to make friends.

 

Sbell makes a good point. There can often be a significant amount of time between when someone finds a cache until they log it. That could explain why there was a entry on the log sheet after the OPs log.

 

I hope that NeesesAndNephews doesn't become discouraged that there are some that might be playing the game a bit different, but, as Sbell wrote confronting another geocacher about a cache that you do not own is a no-win situation. NeesesAndNephews does have the opportunity, however, to contact the cache owner (CO) , let them know that they live very close and offer to keep their eyes on the cache. Mentioning a disparity between the physical and online logs puts the issue in the cache owners court, but it's up to the CO as to what they want to do with that information.

[+fatboy52]

If you were the cache owner, by all means, delete the log if you know it's fake.

 

Otherwise, just play the game according to your own integrity. These other folks are just cheating themselves and missing out on the real fun. Don't let their shenanigans spoil what you take away from the experience.

its like playing solitaire ,you can only cheat yourself who cares how other people play.

[+StarBrand]

....

,you can only cheat yourself who cares how other people play.

I care. I don't really wished to be lumped into any group that finds such a practice acceptable.

 

I'd let the CO know what you found out - then let it go.

[+ecanderson]

A problem with falsely logging a find is that it creates the impression that the cache is still there. When I have a hard time finding a cache, I check the online logs to see if someone else found it recently. False logs ruin the ability to trust the information.

... and creates exactly the same potential problem for the owner who, in the absence of any information to the contrary, will most likely assume all is well whether it is or not.

[+hukilaulau]

So my wife says "well if thats how it works, I don't think I care to play... whats the point?"

I suppose what I am asking is... how do others feel about this sort of practice???

For me the point is this: I've found geocaches in more than 20 states and found way cool trails and parks I couldn't possibly have found if not for geocaching.

As for the other part of the question: When someone logs a cache they didn't find, I don't like it but I usually don't do anything about it. The exception is when I know the cache isn't there I'll leave a note or a "needs archived" to try to prevent misleading others.

[+BrrrMo]

Enjoy Cacheing and don't worry about being the "LOG POLICE", and I don't mean that to be snippey.

Edited January 28, 2010 by BrrrMo

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Let's try not to characterize anyone for posting their concerns. Thanks.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Enjoy Cacheing and don't worry about being the "LOG POLICE", and I don't mean that to be snippey.

 

I don't either. "Cache Police" is frequently used in the forums in a derogatory manner, but there are cases where being a "Cache Cop" is very much justified. If there a cache that has been discovered, that due to where or how it's hidden, jeopardizes the game, and the cache owner won't address the issue I think it's perfectly acceptable to put on a badge and report it. Caches that are on private property, when it's known that the property owner/land manager doesn't want it there is one reason. A cache hidden in a sensitive area (for example old rock walls) or basically any cache that gives the game a bad name is, IMHO, worthy of a visit by a cache cop. That said, like the recent thread where some contended that real cops overstepped their authority that are many instances where a cache should be left as is, and if there are minor issues they may eventually come up between the local reviewer and the cacher owner without any other involvement.

[+briansnat]

If you were the cache owner, by all means, delete the log if you know it's fake.

 

Otherwise, just play the game according to your own integrity. These other folks are just cheating themselves and missing out on the real fun. Don't let their shenanigans spoil what you take away from the experience.

its like playing solitaire ,you can only cheat yourself who cares how other people play.

 

Because bogus logs can affect others. Cheat at solitaire you are only cheating yourself. Log bogus finds and you are potentially screwing with the cache owner and other geocahcers.

Edited January 29, 2010 by briansnat

[+leejas72]

He posted this on the online logs of three different caches, and his name did not appear on any of the logs we found and signed, supposedly after he did. So my wife says "well if thats how it works, I don't think I care to play... whats the point?"

 

Here is the thing you really need to think about. Just what do you think is the point of geocaching? Is it to get the most smileys or have fun? If you think the point is found counts, you might as well quit right now because 100's if not 1000's of people have you beat and there is no hope of "wining", Alamogul has over 37,000 and still going. If it is to have fun and see neat places then I don't understand why this practice should bother you. It should in no way have an impact on your fun.

 

Another thing that will probably get your knickers in a bunch is that there are people that find the caches and maybe sign the logbook but don't log on line. They really don't care about found counts.

 

Also if you put neat swag in a cache and then rush out to see what I took your going to be very disappointed and confused. I don't swap swag, I just sign the logbook and move travelers. If some one claims a find on the cache but did not sign the logbook I really don't care because it does not change my game one iota.

 

Oh how true all of this is. I go Geocaching for me. It's the thrill of the hunt, the excitement of the find, and the hope that I'll find the DNF on the next try. I don't care how others log their finds. I do this with my kids and we just love it!

Welcome to the Geocaching world and I hope you get all the enjoyment out of caching that it has to offer.

[+tozainamboku]

A problem with falsely logging a find is that it creates the impression that the cache is still there. When I have a hard time finding a cache, I check the online logs to see if someone else found it recently. False logs ruin the ability to trust the information.

... and creates exactly the same potential problem for the owner who, in the absence of any information to the contrary, will most likely assume all is well whether it is or not.

 

its like playing solitaire ,you can only cheat yourself who cares how other people play.

 

Because bogus logs can affect others. Cheat at solitaire you are only cheating yourself. Log bogus finds and you are potentially screwing with the cache owner and other geocahcers.

 

I won't deny that its possible for a bogus log to cause problems with a cache owner or other geocacher thinking a cache is there when it might in fact be missing, but I'd have to think this is going to be very rare.

First of all, as has been stated already, outright bogus logs are pretty rare. It just isn't that much fun to sit at home a log caches when you could be out actually finding caches, so most people don't do it and those that do get bored quickly and stop. Next, the log would have to be on a cache that is actually missing. A bogus find on an cache that is actually there isn't going to cause a cache to not check on a missing cache, and if it causes some other cacher to spend more time looking that only means its more likely they will find the cache too. Finally, the log had to not be suspicious. Most bogus logs are suspicious to begin with. They are usually cut and paste logs that say little. Nobody logs one bogus log, they log a bunch of caches the same day and sometimes these are located in different states or countries. Often when someone sees a suspicious log they will let other owners whose caches were logged the same day. Hopefully this results in many bogus logs getting deleted, but even the ones that are left might have evidence (a note on the cache page or something) to show they are suspect. We had one logger who came through with a cut and paste log explaining why they never sign the physical log. It was fairly obvious that these were bogus finds. My guess is that if a cache owner or another cacher was suspecting that a cache was missing, a single Found It log would be checked out to see if it appears to be bogus or not before making a special trip to find the cache. Of course if you're in the area you might check for the cache without checking the veracity of the log. In my case, if I'm in the area and there is a cache with several DNFs that a cache owner hasn't disabled, I'm likely to look anyhow just in case. A bogus found it log would probably have no effect on my decision to search for a cache or not. The only difference is that I may search longer thinking the cache has recently been found.

[+briansnat]

I won't deny that its possible for a bogus log to cause problems with a cache owner or other geocacher thinking a cache is there when it might in fact be missing, but I'd have to think this is going to be very rare.

 

They've affected me several times. Once when I was encouraged to go after a long missing cache after a bogus find. Several times when they either affected my decision to do maintenance, or caused me to take time out of my day to check paper logs.

 

How about if instead of shrugging our shoulders and using the flawed "cheating at solitaire" analogy, we discourage dishonesty?

 

Besides, phony logs are not nearly as rare as you suggest.

[+cerberus1]

Okay, again I'll have to agree with Brian.

I also don't think the practice of false logs acceptable.

This has affected us personally a number of times...

 

One, because we're honest, DIDN'T get us on the "Found It, Didn't..." section on the forums

- as almost everyone else did on a cache.

A number of times, we've headed out to caches and found MANY examples of cachers who "found it" on site, but no sigs in the log. It's not that we were playing "cache police", but certain people were showing a pattern ("forgot my pen. I'll be back", "quick and easy cache"- on a 5+ mile hike, etc.) and while there we looked.

Heck, TWO times we were logging in to find that another logged FTF, when we were the ONLY one's to hit the cache that day. Who knows WHAT they were thinking ?

Can't tell you the number of times we've gone for a hide to find it hasn't been there (for some time), yet logged in by a few AFTER the 5-6 DNFs. We thought it was replaced (and yes, we checked with a pic of GZ, with the CO) to find they were "liers' logs."

Gas is now high enough to make us cost-conscious in our hunts. Our free time is also pretty limited.

If you don't find it, stop lying.

Edited January 29, 2010 by cerberus1

[+sbell111]

I won't deny that its possible for a bogus log to cause problems with a cache owner or other geocacher thinking a cache is there when it might in fact be missing, but I'd have to think this is going to be very rare.

They've affected me several times. Once when I was encouraged to go after a long missing cache after a bogus find. Several times when they either affected my decision to do maintenance, or caused me to take time out of my day to check paper logs.

How many times have DNFs on caches that were not missing 'affected' you? How many times have actual found logs on caches that you could not find (regardless of whether or not the cache was missing) 'affected' you?

How about if instead of shrugging our shoulders and using the flawed "cheating at solitaire" analogy, we discourage dishonesty?

That's already being handled, thank you very much. Of course, no one has shown that the referenced cacher was dishonest about anything.

Besides, phony logs are not nearly as rare as you suggest.

Given that the referenced thread is six years old and mostly just a bunch of guys patting themselves on the back, I fail to see how you've proven your point.

 

How many caches were logged yesterday?

Edited January 29, 2010 by sbell111

[+briansnat]

How many times have DNFs on caches that were not missing 'affected' you? How many times have actual found logs on caches that you could not find (regardless of whether or not the cache was missing) 'affected' you?

 

Probably a few. The difference is that these are honest logs written by people who are using this site's tools as

designed and are part of the sport. Bogus logs deliberately mislead other geocachers are a misuse of this website's features. There is no place for them in this sport.

 

I don't get why the same actors support dishonesty and misuse of this website's features every time this subject comes up.

[+sbell111]

How many times have DNFs on caches that were not missing 'affected' you? How many times have actual found logs on caches that you could not find (regardless of whether or not the cache was missing) 'affected' you?

 

Probably a few. The difference is that these are honest logs written by people who are using this site's tools as

designed and are part of the sport. Bogus logs deliberately mislead other geocachers are a misuse of this website's features. There is no place for them in this sport.

 

I don't get why the same actors support dishonesty and misuse of this website's features every time this subject comes up.

I am amused at how you twist the positions of those 'same actors'. I have yet to see any post that actually supported these actions.

 

Those that you claim do so are not exactly in support. They merely explain that they are not bothered by this issue. They further explain that they feel that it is an issue that is between a cache owner and a cache logger.

 

You appear to be taking the unreasonable stance that everyone that isn't with you is against you. That position further separates you from the center causing more disagreement from those 'same actors'.

 

Beyond this, I merely find your behavior in threads like this one to be amusing and just a bit pitiable.

Edited January 29, 2010 by sbell111

[+tozainamboku]

How many times have DNFs on caches that were not missing 'affected' you? How many times have actual found logs on caches that you could not find (regardless of whether or not the cache was missing) 'affected' you?

 

Probably a few. The difference is that these are honest logs written by people who are using this site's tools as

designed and are part of the sport. Bogus logs deliberately mislead other geocachers are a misuse of this website's features. There is no place for them in this sport.

 

I don't get why the same actors support dishonesty and misuse of this website's features every time this subject comes up.

I don't think anyone is supporting dishonesty. Both sbell and I are on the record as saying the cache owners should delete bogus logs.

 

I have issues with exaggerating the problem caused by these logs and failing to make a distinction between these dishonest logs and someone who post a find online because they genuinely believe they have found the cache despite not having signed the log.

 

The Not Found = Found thread is mostly a bunch logs where the person has clearly indicated that they didn't sign the log but are claiming a find. They range from people who simply picked the wrong log type, to ones who didn't bring a pen or found the log to wet to write in, to claiming a find on missing cache because the cache owner told them to. Many of the examples are of logging practices that the majority of geocachers (not just puritans) might not consider a find, but there are clearly not lying per se as the cachers will describe right in the log their reason for claiming a find. I don't see bogus loggers write "I didn't find the cached but I'm claiming a find on it anyhow because I would have looked for it if I wasn't busy at home trying to inflate my find count". There may be a few case in that long thread where someone reports of someone logging finds on hundreds of caches in multiple states in one day where it would not be possible to visit all those caches in that one day, or where someone reports a new cacher suddenly claiming many finds and yet no one has seen his signature in any of the cache he claims to have found. But these cases are rare even in that thread.

 

If you are deciding to look for a cache, because someone posted "The cache was missing but the owner said I could log it anyhow", don't blame anyone but yourself if you don't find the cache. Personally, I might look in hopes of finding the cache so I could post that owner was too quick in giving out free smileys. In fact, I see a "Found It" log saying "I dropped a replacement" I'll spend a little more time looking in hopes of finding the original.

[+briansnat]

Beyond this, I merely find your behavior in threads like this one to be amusing and just a bit pitiable.

 

Glad that I can entertain you and thank you for having pity on me.

Edited January 29, 2010 by briansnat

[+BrrrMo]

I think that TPTB should fix the Forums so you are only allowed to post one time for each Cache found. ;>]

[+Car54]

To the OP - I understand the urge to see if the swag you left was taken. When we were new, I would watch every cache we found just to see if people liked what we were leaving. It always made me happy to see a mention of something we left in a cache brightening someone else's day. While I wouldn't call us jaded or cynical, that first "newbie rush", for lack of better words, has passed. Thanks for bringing the memory back to mind. It's a good reminder to me that when we *do* swap swag, I should include that info in our log, just in case the "dropper" is watching.

 

Enjoy your new hobby!

 

(Edit - typo)

Edited January 29, 2010 by Car54

[+P4nD0r4]

Just to let you know since you haven't been doing it long, that some people have multiple accounts, so they might "find" it and log it under a different name. Like if they are part of a larger group of cachers they might log it twice, once under the group name, and once under their individual name. Also, they might have waited a while to log it. Some people go a month without logging a find, like if they go on a big trip, and then log all their finds at once. Some people (like me!) find a cache then can't log it until the next day and forget to change the date on the log to reflect when they found the cache.

 

But if none of this is the case, then that means the person "cheated". I believe you have to lay hands on the cache and you MUST sign your name in order to claim the find. If there is no log book in the cache, then the cache technically cannot be "found" until there is proof of finding it. I have found myself without a pen numerous times when caching and had to go on mad searches to find one in order to log my find. Just because someone doesn't have a pen but found the cache, doesn't give them the excuse to log it as a Find. But that's just my opinion.

[+Too Tall John]

I am amused at how you twist the positions of those 'same actors'. I have yet to see any post that actually supported these actions.

 

Those that you claim do so are not exactly in support. They merely explain that they are not bothered by this issue. They further explain that they feel that it is an issue that is between a cache owner and a cache logger.

So, in the rest of your response you are "merely explaining" that you aren't bothered by the issue when you call his view "unreasonable" and find him "pitiable"?

 

Sounds like there's a bit of bother in there somewhere.

You appear to be taking the unreasonable stance that everyone that isn't with you is against you. That position further separates you from the center causing more disagreement from those 'same actors'.

 

Beyond this, I merely find your behavior in threads like this one to be amusing and just a bit pitiable.

Let's not forget the following post. You aren't "merely explaining" your lack of caring. You are arguing.

I won't deny that its possible for a bogus log to cause problems with a cache owner or other geocacher thinking a cache is there when it might in fact be missing, but I'd have to think this is going to be very rare.

They've affected me several times. Once when I was encouraged to go after a long missing cache after a bogus find. Several times when they either affected my decision to do maintenance, or caused me to take time out of my day to check paper logs.

How many times have DNFs on caches that were not missing 'affected' you? How many times have actual found logs on caches that you could not find (regardless of whether or not the cache was missing) 'affected' you?

How about if instead of shrugging our shoulders and using the flawed "cheating at solitaire" analogy, we discourage dishonesty?

That's already being handled, thank you very much. Of course, no one has shown that the referenced cacher was dishonest about anything.

Besides, phony logs are not nearly as rare as you suggest.

Given that the referenced thread is six years old and mostly just a bunch of guys patting themselves on the back, I fail to see how you've proven your point.

 

How many caches were logged yesterday?

Being contrary, telling him his concern isn't necessary (thank you very much) and dismissing the point he makes as a failure are not the actions of someone who "is not bothered by the issue." Someone who "is not bothered by the issue" and truly thinks that Brian failed to make his point would merely dismiss the thread with a passing "Meh!" Something you did not do.

 

Get your story straight.

[Mr.Yuck]

Gee. this issue again? Actually, the OP has only 8 finds. This is very easy to figure out. By the way, someone really dropped a cache behind your back yard in a residential neighborhood? The "phony logger" just joined 11 days ago, and has logged 22 finds, I believe it was. Perhaps they don't even know they have to sign the logbook! Or maybe they just didn't have a pen that day.

[+NeecesandNephews]

As the OP on this thread I would like to make some comments if my "noobie" status allows me to.

 

Part of the purpose of posting to begin with, was to gather other players opinions on this topic. I wanted to know how others felt. Another purpose was to guage the "feel" of the forum. I belong to several different forums on Hunting, Hotrodding, Antique Vehicles, Firearms, ect... probably 12 total. I post comments and read posts when I have the time, so I am not a frequent poster on ANY of them. (even though I have been a member of a couple of them going on ten years)

I have found many of the forums I belong to, to be hostile and dismissive to anyone who doesn't have hundreds of posts.

NOT YET being jaded and cynical... I hoped this one would be different.

I would like to thank everyone for their responses. (you ask for opinion, you can't expect to agree with all of them)

Several posters have sent personal emails that were very encouraging. One told me to "mind my own business". lol

I have taken them all in stride!!!

EXCEPT the last. I can tolerate light criticism, instruction, chastisement, advice, ect... But when you dismiss me as some sort of dumba** because I have only eight finds... that crossed the line. I have probably spent as much , if not more time, staring at a GPS than you have. I checked your "history"

I have hunted, hiked, and camped in every state in a line from the tip of Texas to the Canadian border, and one or two states along side that line. I don't know what exactly you were trying to insinuate. If you want to try and find this cache in question ...look up my profile...get the cords... come find it and feel free to knock on my door. You almost came right out and said I made the whole thing up. At least thats the way I read it. CORRECT me if I was wrong.

If YOU had read what I wrote and absorbed it instead of thinking what you were going to respond before you even finished, you might have a little better grasp on the situation I was asking about.

The hunter in question sent me a response to my email... he said he signed with a different name... he gave me THAT name he allegedly signed with. IT IS NOT ON THE LOG. So are we clear on this????

He told the world he found it and his name wasn't on it. He told me he found it and gave me the name he said he signed, which ISN'T there either.

Nobody who responded with all the possible excuses for his name not being on the log, took into consideration that HE TOLD ME he signed it. Thats a lot different than telling me "I didnt have a pen/cil with me"

It is NOT my cache... I am just trying to figure out the reasoning behind this sort of action... and determine if this is widely accepted.

Is it going to change the way I cache hunt???? No. Point being I was just curious... I didn't post to be insulted or dismissed.

And to everyone who replied... I am amazed nobody pointed out the written words of Groundspeak themselves.

Geocaching> Getting Started With Geocaching> Cache Listing Requirements/ Guidelines

subheading: Logging of All Physical Caches

..." Geocaches can be logged online as found once the physical logbook has been signed."...

I think this sums it all up. At least it does for me.

Thank you all for your participation, and especially the ones who would like to get together with us.

And feel free to try and convince me that this line from the Guidelines really means "after the logbook has been signed ONCE, after that you can log it as a driveby if you feel like it"

And I am being sincere when I thank all of you for voicing your thoughts. I am not going to let one reply ruin my experience with this forum.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Everyone please take a deep breath. This is just caching.

 

And again, let's not characterize people who post concerns on the forums.

 

Thanks.

[+NeecesandNephews]

MM thank you for Moderating, most Moderators are un appreciated, and often resented.

 

I reread the post I just put up and it does come off as being written by a red-faced, vein- popping, frothing and spitting typer.

Rest assured this is not the case. I was taught to speak my words quietly and clearly, years ago, and I try to do this today.

I thank those who I feel need it, and if someone offends me, I try to make them aware of it, as they might not have intended to. If they assume something about me, I correct them if their assumption is wrong.

I have not made many comments on this thread as I was asking for opinions, not looking to broadcast my own.

I don't like the inference I am a "troll".

I found the line in the Guidelines after moving on to the idea of hiding some caches. Had I seen it earlier I might have posted it sooner.

I am new, but plan to continue this hobby, and hope to meet others who might be local, or just passing through, who might want to get together.

With all the "clues" I don't think I am hard to find!!!!

I apologize if my words seemed rude or written in anger. I seldom let anything anger me.

[+briansnat]

MM thank you for Moderating, most Moderators are un appreciated, and often resented.

 

I reread the post I just put up and it does come off as being written by a red-faced, vein- popping, frothing and spitting typer.

Rest assured this is not the case. I was taught to speak my words quietly and clearly, years ago, and I try to do this today.

I thank those who I feel need it, and if someone offends me, I try to make them aware of it, as they might not have intended to. If they assume something about me, I correct them if their assumption is wrong.

I have not made many comments on this thread as I was asking for opinions, not looking to broadcast my own.

I don't like the inference I am a "troll".

I found the line in the Guidelines after moving on to the idea of hiding some caches. Had I seen it earlier I might have posted it sooner.

I am new, but plan to continue this hobby, and hope to meet others who might be local, or just passing through, who might want to get together.

With all the "clues" I don't think I am hard to find!!!!

I apologize if my words seemed rude or written in anger. I seldom let anything anger me.

 

You're no troll. You just ran into the some of the usual suspects who think that the louder they proclaim their indifference to bogus logs, the more it shows their superiority to us pitiable folk who think that bogus logs should be discouraged.

[+bflentje]

As the OP on this thread I would like to make some comments if my "noobie" status allows me to.

 

Part of the purpose of posting to begin with, was to gather other players opinions on this topic. I wanted to know how others felt. Another purpose was to guage the "feel" of the forum. I belong to several different forums on Hunting, Hotrodding, Antique Vehicles, Firearms, ect... probably 12 total. I post comments and read posts when I have the time, so I am not a frequent poster on ANY of them. (even though I have been a member of a couple of them going on ten years)

 

I have to be honest, I also frequent many other forums and the forum here is BY FAR the most hostile forum I've ever participated in, outside of politics. If I were a noob coming in here for the first time I would probably just cower and never come back.

[knowschad]

MM thank you for Moderating, most Moderators are un appreciated, and often resented.

 

I reread the post I just put up and it does come off as being written by a red-faced, vein- popping, frothing and spitting typer.

Rest assured this is not the case. I was taught to speak my words quietly and clearly, years ago, and I try to do this today.

I thank those who I feel need it, and if someone offends me, I try to make them aware of it, as they might not have intended to. If they assume something about me, I correct them if their assumption is wrong.

I have not made many comments on this thread as I was asking for opinions, not looking to broadcast my own.

I don't like the inference I am a "troll".

I found the line in the Guidelines after moving on to the idea of hiding some caches. Had I seen it earlier I might have posted it sooner.

I am new, but plan to continue this hobby, and hope to meet others who might be local, or just passing through, who might want to get together.

With all the "clues" I don't think I am hard to find!!!!

I apologize if my words seemed rude or written in anger. I seldom let anything anger me.

You have the perfect avatar, that's for sure!

 

By the way, in this forum, even those with hundreds or thousands of posts often have to put up with hostile and dismissive posts from others with hundreds or thousands of posts. At least we are an equal opportunity bunch of snarks.

[+BlueDeuce]

By the way, in this forum, even those with hundreds or thousands of posts often have to put up with hostile and dismissive posts from others with hundreds or thousands of posts. At least we are an equal opportunity bunch of snarks.

 

Nothing that a good dose of bacon wouldn't cure.

 

Get it?

 

Bacon? Cure?

 

eh, nevermind.