SC Laws and Cache Placement

[+TOW Vehicle]

What constitutes having permission to come onto private property in the absence of the owner?

 

Cache Owners say they have permission to place a cache but is there really any proof of that if, and when you are confronted by Law Enforcement? Many of the local caches aren’t even marked or, have any thing inside that describe what they are.

 

Trespass laws aside, there are other laws as well that require the person to notify the owner in different situations as to his presence.

 

In my experience so far, not many local cache owners are actually getting the owners permission to place caches. Much more, they are not clearly marking the caches as such. This puts a heavy burden of proof on the cacher should they get cited for trespass or just questioned during an investigation of their presence.

 

Should a cacher question the cache owner out-right before attempting the find and report it if permission has not been granted?

 

Maybe a letter of intent from the cache owner to the property owner notifying them and asking for a signature would suffice?

[+carolnbarney]

Don't know about SC, but here in NC a person has to have been told not to be on someone's property before they can be charged with trespassing. Unless, t's "posted" which opens up a whole other all of wax. That involves filing certain papers with the Clerk of Court's office and actually putting signs up. Unless again, the property has been so arranged as it beng obvious the property owner doesn't want you there as in a fence or such.

 

In NC, there are "degrees" of trespass... In one county, there is a charge specific to that county of 4th degree trespass which requires you to actually have written permission on your person if you are on that property. That law was passed to address a specific problem of people with 4 wheelers and trucks "mudding" or driving through river beds when the water was down and "coming out" over someone's land making a mess, but it's been extended to all types of activities. Geocaching would fit those other uses.

 

Find a friendly, local law enforcement officer and ask what is generally accepted.

[+llatnek]

 

...when you are confronted by Law Enforcement?

 

 

That's why I carry my "Get Out of Jail Free" card (the Let's Go Geocaching pamphlet from Geocaching Univ.)

It's come in very handy quite a few times.

[CoyoteRed]

First, INAL, but I am a police officer and this comes from my understanding of trespass laws in SC and being a geocacher. If that said...

 

What constitutes having permission to come onto private property in the absence of the owner?

There really isn't permission to go onto land, but there are limitations from going onto lands. The land being posted or being told to leave, or not come onto, any property is indication you can't be there. Otherwise the opposite is true.

 

Cache Owners say they have permission to place a cache but is there really any proof of that if, and when you are confronted by Law Enforcement? Many of the local caches aren’t even marked or, have any thing inside that describe what they are.

It's going to depend on why the LEO is there. If it's a call of a suspicious person, then you're probably going to get questioned a little bit more than if they simply come upon you. Also, if the cache is in an area where there have been certain criminal activity then you're going to get more intensely questioned than otherwise.

 

For instance, urban caches in areas where there have been break ins, either home or auto, then you're more likely to get questioned why you're there. Considering most cops don't know what geocaching is then you'll have to get past the education part of the encounter. It also depends on how you look, too.

 

Trespass laws aside, there are other laws as well that require the person to notify the owner in different situations as to his presence.

Not that I'm aware of.

 

In my experience so far, not many local cache owners are actually getting the owners permission to place caches. Much more, they are not clearly marking the caches as such.

The standard is "adequate permission." In many instances you're not going to get "explicit permission," because the land steward doesn't want to open himself up to possible lawsuits. They, essentially and officially, turn a blind eye. For this reason you can't put on the cache page you have explicit permission.

 

Now, if every cache with explicit permission put that fact on the cache page that would leave those caches with implied permission lumped into the group with no permission. You won't be able to tell the two apart. Clearly not a good idea.

 

Should a cacher question the cache owner out-right before attempting the find and report it if permission has not been granted?

No. Not unless you have good reason to believe the cache is placed against land steward permission. Examples would be in an area marked for no entry like behind No Trespassing signs.

 

Maybe a letter of intent from the cache owner to the property owner notifying them and asking for a signature would suffice?

Most land stewards would balk at this, especially those on the fence of allowing it or not. It would simply be easier to say "no" and be done with it. Even folks that originally have a positive feel for it might balk at signing something.

 

Think about it. You approach someone about placing a cache on their land. They get positive vibes on the idea and say, "Sure! Go right ahead!"

 

You then whip out some form and say, "Here, sign this."

 

"Um... Why?"

 

"Permission," you respond.

 

"I just gave you permission."

 

"I need proof you gave me permission. A signature."

 

"Why?"

 

"Because some cachers have placed caches on land without getting permission. Some geocachers have gotten into trouble with the law and some property owners have had a hard time getting caches removed from their property. We now have to prove to other cachers that we have proof we get permission so no one gets in trouble."

 

"Geocachers don't respect property owner wishes? Well, I'm not so sure I want that kind of people on my land. I'll pass, thankyouverymuch."

 

You just turned what should be a fun, silly, harmless little hobby into a legalistic activity with property owner concerns.

 

So, in conclusion: don't worry about whether there is permission to place a cache. Only worry about whether you should be there or not. Even if the cache is there concern yourself with whether you should be there. You see an obvious problem privately contact the reviewer and turn it over to them. (Believe me, that's the best way unless you want to start a feud.) If confronted with LEO, be honest--and use a brochure. Most cop encounters, in my experience, ends with a glazed look and a "they're calling me, I gotta go" and then they speed off. You can be a bit more evasive with other folks. I generally use, "A bunch of friends of mine and I are into these handheld GPSes. One of them hid a small box and gave the rest of us the coordinates to it. I'm here trying to find it." If I'm not getting a good vibe and become concerned with these folks coming back to find the cache after I leave, I might follow up with "Well, it looks like someone else got here first" and leave. These makes them believe there wasn't anything there to find. I like this because it is, oh, about 90% the truth. Easy to keep straight and provides the opportunity to leave without jeopardizing the integrity of the cache.

 

Hope this helps.

[+TOW Vehicle]

First, INAL, ...

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

Took me awhile to figure out INAL, that's funny. "I'm not a lawyer"

 

I'm sure this conversation has come up at the local meeting here. I know many people that own propertys around town because of my work relation with these folks.

 

My position in all of this is to help protect their property from vandals to ensure geocachers don't get caught up in the fray around vacant commerical property they really had no business there.

 

I'll not inform any others and let the chips fall were they may.