The new UK Earthcache Rules

[+martlakes]

Below is the text I received from GeoawareUK in response to my submitted Earthcache. I think it would be useful for UK cachers to know what the UK Earthcache rules are under the new system.

There is, however, nowhere that I know of that this policy has been published so to help end the confusion about the new system I'm sharing it here.

 

My personal view is that in certain circumstances it's rather excessive. It's also a shame there was no opportunity to discuss it beforehand with whoever decided on it. I'm currently seeking permission for my EC.

Anyway, I hope it helps prospective EC creators know what the rules are in the UK.

 

I'm not commenting about GeoawareUK by the way, he/she has been helpful and encouraging.

 

As per the guidelines; (Link)

 

* All EarthCache submissions (whether on public or private land) must have prior approval of the landowner or the relevant public body, and the text of your listing must also be approved by the landowner.

The reason you are required to confirm landowner permission is not necessarily one of access, but one of use. The idea is for you to confirm with the owner/manager of a piece of property that they have no objections to your using their property to teach an Earth science lesson.

 

The effect of this within the United Kingdom is that;

 

If an EarthCache is being placed on a public road, no permission is required. However, if an EarthCache is being placed on a road in a national, county or local park, then permission is required. If an EarthCache is "off-road" in any sort of park, forest or private land, permission is required and the submitter is required to provide the name, position and phone number of the person to whom they spoke.

[+Graculus]

There is an Earthcache forum in the main GC forum page http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showforum=67

There are many discussions there inlcuding this one from November 2009 which does discuss the new process.

 

Chris

Graculus - Volunteer UK Reviewer for geocaching.com

Resource website www.follow-the-arrow.co.uk

[+The Blorenges]

There has been quite a lot of discussion about the new rules for Earth Caches in the Earth cache forum which includes a very active topic about the changes to the Submittal Process.

 

It has been quite heated at times, with a few fumaroles in evidence.

 

MrsB

[+rutson]

MrsB, meet Graculus, I think you'll get on just famously

[+martlakes]

Yes, I think I've read most of them, but not seen any interpretation of how it works in the UK.

 

The Guidelines actually say:

All EarthCache sites developed must have prior approval of the landowners before submission (depending on local country laws and customs). When applicable you must have written approval with the appropriate owner or land-managing agency.

 

So what does that mean for the UK? - see first post.

 

As for the fumeroles about pictures and people claiming a visit when they haven't - phew! There's strange folk out there.

[+Happy Humphrey]

I had a look through some of the rules and discussions. I have mixed feelings about Earthcaches anyway; I found two in October in Greece, but only 'found' one (the other was just too tedious to bother although it was an interesting site, so I just posted a note).

 

I'm now of a mind to use them to locate any interesting natural sights in an area, with a bit of introductory text, but I'm not going to even consider logging them as 'found'. Life's too short! Why would you have to "prove" that you'd visited?I'll just post a 'note' so that I have a record that I visited.

 

I certainly won't be considering setting up an earthcache, although I know of a really good site nearby. All the requirements about site safety (which is why "vacation" earthcaches aren't allowed), permission (in most cases - silly; does a Wikipedia entry about a geological feature need permission?), educational questions, "no plagiarism", proximity, proof of visit and so on are also firmly in the "life's too short" category from my point of view. I really don't know why they're regarded as geocaches at all, TBH. It just seems to have led to them becoming bogged down in formalities.

 

But, of course, that's also just my personal view! Thanks for pointing out the changes, which may well have gone unnoticed to most UK geocachers.

[+Happy Humphrey]

Yes, I think I've read most of them, but not seen any interpretation of how it works in the UK.

 

The Guidelines actually say:

All EarthCache sites developed must have prior approval of the landowners before submission (depending on local country laws and customs). When applicable you must have written approval with the appropriate owner or land-managing agency.

 

So what does that mean for the UK? - see first post.

 

As for the fumeroles about pictures and people claiming a visit when they haven't - phew! There's strange folk out there.

I agree with what you say, but I think that this Earthcache site and its guidelines is applicable only to the USA. There's no attempt to localise information; for instance, in the FAQs there's;

 

many EarthCaches are being developed in places where it is against the law to leave a container, such as in National Parks and at Geological Monuments

...which is quite wrong except in certain parks in the US.

 

Also, you have to submit an English version of the text, which would be a bit bizarre in some parts of the world and quite difficult to arrange. There are plenty of other examples which suggest that this is really all meant for US-based geology enthusiasts only, rather than the international geocaching population.

[+Moote]

As the law opens up more countryside in England, Geocaching appears to be closing it down!

[+keehotee]

Below is the text I received from GeoawareUK in response to my submitted Earthcache. I think it would be useful for UK cachers to know what the UK Earthcache rules are under the new system.

There is, however, nowhere that I know of that this policy has been published so to help end the confusion about the new system I'm sharing it here.

 

My personal view is that in certain circumstances it's rather excessive. It's also a shame there was no opportunity to discuss it beforehand with whoever decided on it. I'm currently seeking permission for my EC.

Anyway, I hope it helps prospective EC creators know what the rules are in the UK.

 

I'm not commenting about GeoawareUK by the way, he/she has been helpful and encouraging.

 

As per the guidelines; (Link)

 

* All EarthCache submissions (whether on public or private land) must have prior approval of the landowner or the relevant public body, and the text of your listing must also be approved by the landowner.

The reason you are required to confirm landowner permission is not necessarily one of access, but one of use. The idea is for you to confirm with the owner/manager of a piece of property that they have no objections to your using their property to teach an Earth science lesson.

 

The effect of this within the United Kingdom is that;

 

If an EarthCache is being placed on a public road, no permission is required. However, if an EarthCache is being placed on a road in a national, county or local park, then permission is required. If an EarthCache is "off-road" in any sort of park, forest or private land, permission is required and the submitter is required to provide the name, position and phone number of the person to whom they spoke.

 

Confused....

 

I thought you always had to get permission from the landowner for an earthcache in this country....or at least tick the box to say you had and provide the landowners contact details???

I've had a couple on hold for at least a year because I've been unable to find anybody prepared to claim ownership (or stewardship) of the places in question - including the local authority that provided the info boards at both sites

[Deceangi]

As the law opens up more countryside in England, Geocaching appears to be closing it down!

 

Sorry please show me the relevant UK Law which states people have a Legal Right to place caches. So I can point this out when a Landowner makes a Official Complaint about a geocache placed without permission. Besides the number of geocaches published in the UK is rising year after year. 2009 alone saw a huge increase in numbers published in the UK, a large % in locations classified as being Countryside.

 

There is a big difference between being required to provide proof of permission. And being refused a cache submission due to Land Issues. In the Second case, it's usually due to the Landowner Banning Geocaching. Several Bans being created by people placing a geocache without permission!

 

And whilst Groundspeak are responsible for setting the Guidelines for Geocaches listed on this site.

 

GSA are responcible for setting the Guidelines for Earthcaches, not Groundspeak.

 

Deci

[+Happy Humphrey]

Sorry please show me the relevant UK Law which states people have a Legal Right to place caches.

I don't think that's a good answer; we don't always need laws to allow us to "do" things, just to prevent us doing (wrong) things. It's like saying, show me the law that states that we can wear clothes. There isn't one because it's not needed.

Anyway, the thread is about earthcaches which don't have a container and often (usually?) are at sites where it is clear that the public visits already.

[+geoawareUK]

 

I thought you always had to get permission from the landowner for an earthcache in this country...

 

Yes - You always did.

 

There has been no change in the permission requirement from that under the 'old' system to that under the 'new' one.

 

And no, the "local laws and customs" exclusion doesn't, never did and was never intended to apply to the United Kingdom.

 

 

If anyone has any questions about seeking landowner permission for an EarthCache they are thinking of placing , please feel free to contact me through my profile.

 

 

geoawareUK

[+Pharisee]

I wonder how long it will be before 'Earth caches' are hived off onto another website the same way 'Locationless caches' were turned into 'Waymarks'?

Actually, I think that would be a grand idea as Earth caches have nothing what-so-ever to do with the original concept of geocaching, anyway.

[+Happy Humphrey]

I wonder how long it will be before 'Earth caches' are hived off onto another website the same way 'Locationless caches' were turned into 'Waymarks'?

Actually, I think that would be a grand idea as Earth caches have nothing what-so-ever to do with the original concept of geocaching, anyway.

Earthcaches were waymarks for some time, before the surprise decision to bring them back into geocaching. I agree that they'd be better off elsewhere, and they did seem to fit well as a Waymarking category.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Happy Humphrey

[+Happy Humphrey]

Yes - You always did.

Just to clarify: you mean that full details of permission have always had to be specified on the earthcache details, to indicate that written permission was obtained? Not just a tick box like a geocache? (I haven't set one up, so I don't know).

 

Clearly, there's no LEGAL requirement for permission for any earthcache (assuming that it's in an area where the public are not forbidden to enter). I gather that the reason for the permission insistence is to do with the earthcaching body wishing to have these details for their own purposes, rather than any requirement from geocaching.com directly.

[+Simply Paul]

As I have an Earth Cache pending review, I'm not going to get involved in this. Good luck everybody!

[+Moote]

As the law opens up more countryside in England, Geocaching appears to be closing it down!

 

Sorry please show me the relevant UK Law which states people have a Legal Right to place caches. So I can point this out when a Landowner makes a Official Complaint about a geocache placed without permission. Besides the number of geocaches published in the UK is rising year after year. 2009 alone saw a huge increase in numbers published in the UK, a large % in locations classified as being Countryside.

 

There is a big difference between being required to provide proof of permission. And being refused a cache submission due to Land Issues. In the Second case, it's usually due to the Landowner Banning Geocaching. Several Bans being created by people placing a geocache without permission!

 

And whilst Groundspeak are responsible for setting the Guidelines for Geocaches listed on this site.

 

GSA are responcible for setting the Guidelines for Earthcaches, not Groundspeak.

 

Deci

 

Decangi, as an Earthcache are virtual nothing is actually placed, and they usually are on sites accessible to any member of the public. I was referring to Right to Roam, we do not require permission to photograph, read information boards, or research the topic of an Earthcache, so why is permission required to visit what are usually publicly accessible places to participate in this part of caching?

[+Haggis Hunter]

MrsB, meet Graculus, I think you'll get on just famously

 

Sorry please show me the relevant UK Law which states people have a Legal Right to place caches.

I don't think that's a good answer; we don't always need laws to allow us to "do" things, just to prevent us doing (wrong) things. It's like saying, show me the law that states that we can wear clothes. There isn't one because it's not needed.

Anyway, the thread is about earthcaches which don't have a container and often (usually?) are at sites where it is clear that the public visits already.

Obviously IT IS needed, otherwise a judge wouldn't have been able to tell the Naked Rambler that he could spend the rest of his life in prison if he refused to wear clothes. I know he has been charged with Breach of the Piece and Contempt of Court, but obviously the judge wouldn't have been able to give a sentence if it wasn't law to wear clothes in public.

[+Happy Humphrey]

Decangi, as an Earthcache are virtual nothing is actually placed, and they usually are on sites accessible to any member of the public. I was referring to Right to Roam, we do not require permission to photograph, read information boards, or research the topic of an Earthcache, so why is permission required to visit what are usually publicly accessible places to participate in this part of caching?

I think that Deci answered that above. The Geological Society of America is in charge of earthcaches, and (rightly or wrongly) they insist on permission. People in the US have had trouble even explaining to land managers what it is they're asking for, and in some cases cannot get anything in writing.

 

If you asked a visitor centre manager for permission for a few people to occasionally visit it, you'd probably come across the same problem ("So, what exactly do you want from me?)".

 

But if the GSA require it, then Groundspeak can't overrule it.

[Deceangi]

As the law opens up more countryside in England, Geocaching appears to be closing it down!

 

Sorry please show me the relevant UK Law which states people have a Legal Right to place caches. So I can point this out when a Landowner makes a Official Complaint about a geocache placed without permission. Besides the number of geocaches published in the UK is rising year after year. 2009 alone saw a huge increase in numbers published in the UK, a large % in locations classified as being Countryside.

 

There is a big difference between being required to provide proof of permission. And being refused a cache submission due to Land Issues. In the Second case, it's usually due to the Landowner Banning Geocaching. Several Bans being created by people placing a geocache without permission!

 

And whilst Groundspeak are responsible for setting the Guidelines for Geocaches listed on this site.

 

GSA are responcible for setting the Guidelines for Earthcaches, not Groundspeak.

 

Deci

 

Decangi, as an Earthcache are virtual nothing is actually placed, and they usually are on sites accessible to any member of the public. I was referring to Right to Roam, we do not require permission to photograph, read information boards, or research the topic of an Earthcache, so why is permission required to visit what are usually publicly accessible places to participate in this part of caching?

 

Sorry you referred to Geocaching closing down the countryside, Earthcaches are a GSA project which is hosted by Groundspeak. GSA set the Guidelines for Earthcaches. And oversee the Earthcache Reviewers. So Geocaching is not closing down the countryside as you put it. The Proof of Permission for Earthcaches, even on CRoW 200 Act Land is a decision made under GSA Guidelines.

 

The situation regarding Geocaches placed on CRoW 200 Act Land, provided that there is not a Landowner Agreement or the Location is not Designated remains the same.

 

Geocaches and Earthcaches are not the same thing, even if they are Listed on the same site . One is the Host sites Project, and one is a GSA Project. Which is why I don't review Earthcaches, as I'm a Geocache Reviewer, I handle the reviewing of physical containers , mostly

 

Deci

[+Moote]

Decangi, as an Earthcache are virtual nothing is actually placed, and they usually are on sites accessible to any member of the public. I was referring to Right to Roam, we do not require permission to photograph, read information boards, or research the topic of an Earthcache, so why is permission required to visit what are usually publicly accessible places to participate in this part of caching?

I think that Deci answered that above. The Geological Society of America is in charge of earthcaches, and (rightly or wrongly) they insist on permission. People in the US have had trouble even explaining to land managers what it is they're asking for, and in some cases cannot get anything in writing.

 

If you asked a visitor centre manager for permission for a few people to occasionally visit it, you'd probably come across the same problem ("So, what exactly do you want from me?)".

 

But if the GSA require it, then Groundspeak can't overrule it.

I understand what you are saying, but it's ludicrous that US rules are used in the UK, we are an independent country, and as such have our own legal system. I see no issues of people visiting a public place to view, photograph and research something, which they can do freely outside of Geocaching; what is the difference?

 

My Earthcache is in a publicly accessible area, and requires no more intervention than the average day tripper. Under right to roam a landowner can't prevent me doing this, it is educational, if I was out with a metal detector or something possible intrusive to the environment I could understand.

[+Happy Humphrey]

I think that a project run by the Geological Society of America is always going to sit uncomfortably in a host site designed (supposedly) for international use. That's why it would have been better elsewhere (but I guess it's too late to change that now). So I agree with Moote that the rules appear ludicrous (they seem ludicrous to a lot of US geocachers as well).

But rules are rules, in this case.

 

IMHO the GSA didn't give enough consideration to the international community when drafting their rules, or perhaps they weren't aware of how big a number that represents.

[+Moote]

I think that a project run by the Geological Society of America is always going to sit uncomfortably in a host site designed (supposedly) for international use. That's why it would have been better elsewhere (but I guess it's too late to change that now). So I agree with Moote that the rules appear ludicrous (they seem ludicrous to a lot of US geocachers as well).

But rules are rules, in this case.

 

IMHO the GSA didn't give enough consideration to the international community when drafting their rules, or perhaps they weren't aware of how big a number that represents.

Surely geoawareUK has local knowledge, and should pass that onto the GSA,

[Neath Worthies]

Could someone "offical" please explain to me WHY permission is required for a Virtual Earthcache? As has been repeatedly pointed out, nothing actually happens at an Earthcache site aprt from people visiting it.

 

I understand why in UK law there is a requirement for a landowner to give permission for someone else to disturb their property (i.e. by leaving a small box there) but when nobody actually does anything apart from visiting why does an internet site listing a description of the location (and nothing else) need permission?

 

Im pretty sure Geograph for instance doesn't need permission and I see Virtual Earthcaches as being very similar. And what about sites listing tourist attractions, do they need permission before listing places people can visit?

 

This all seems a bit "over the top" to me.

[+Moote]

Could someone "offical" please explain to me WHY permission is required for a Virtual Earthcache? As has been repeatedly pointed out, nothing actually happens at an Earthcache site aprt from people visiting it.

 

I understand why in UK law there is a requirement for a landowner to give permission for someone else to disturb their property (i.e. by leaving a small box there) but when nobody actually does anything apart from visiting why does an internet site listing a description of the location (and nothing else) need permission?

 

Im pretty sure Geograph for instance doesn't need permission and I see Virtual Earthcaches as being very similar. And what about sites listing tourist attractions, do they need permission before listing places people can visit?

 

This all seems a bit "over the top" to me.

I see it as some American Institution, not understanding other Country's laws / legal requirements. I myself don't know the US requirements for permissions of a virtual Earthcache, but I fully understand the English law behind land access.

 

The way I see it, in England you have the Right to Roam in many areas, and that is expanding year on year, that right give you access to the land as long as you are responsible in your activity; now I do not see how taking a few photos (Geograph as you have pointed out a prime example of this), or reading information boards (why else would they be there). The whole of this is laughable, all we should have to do is prove that it is a public access area under RTR or other local / national rules.

 

What I can't understand, is what geoawareUK position, is he/she UK based? Or is he/she a US person placed in charge of UK listings?

 

It's a silly situation, and really should never have come this far.

[+Happy Humphrey]

...obviously the judge wouldn't have been able to give a sentence if it wasn't law to wear clothes in public.

Not at all obvious. It's actually not illegal to be nude in public in the UK! That's why I used that analogy.

[+Simply Paul]

Happy Humphrey is quite right. It's only if your naked bits are likely to cause offence that they become of interest to the police. While I'm here...

 

Off topic, but there's a new Earth Cache- the most remote (possible?) in Britain. I wonder who'll be the first to visit and claim the prize*?

 

*The prize being a warm FTF feeling and nowt else

Edited January 27, 2010 by Simply Paul

[+martlakes]

Confused....

 

I thought you always had to get permission from the landowner for an earthcache in this country....or at least tick the box to say you had and provide the landowners contact details???

 

Well, I know several folk who had ECs published last year before the new system, which didn't have permission from anyone specific as they were on CROW access land, normally frequented by people. As well as from others, I know this from my first EC on Coniston, which was accepted with a simple note explaining the legal right of access, and the thousands of folk who walk up there every year. It's a normal open fell walking area.

 

It appears that this is no longer acceptable. The point seems to be -

The reason you are required to confirm landowner permission is not necessarily one of access, but one of use. The idea is for you to confirm with the owner/manager of a piece of property that they have no objections to your using their property to teach an Earth science lesson.

 

"teach an Earth science lesson" does seem to me to make the whole thing sound like something bigger than the reality of a few people walking around looking at some rocks, which they have a legal right to do on CROW access land or RofW.

 

Given that the landowner doesn't have the right to stop anyone from accessing an EC since there is a legal right of access, the only permission you're asking for is to actually create the listing, pointing people to the rocks. Anyone could set up an EC listing website and a landowner would not have any legal way of preventing anyone from listing an EC if it doesn't involve trespassing, ie. CROW land. The same with walk listing sites, great country pub walks, or waterfall walks lists etc. It appears that GSA wish to grant landowners the option of objecting to a listing, even without any access issues. Perhaps this is a good thing for public relations, and if thousands of folk were going to visit as a consequence I could see the point. But given a dozen or two extra visitors a year will result, it hardly seems like a major impact.

 

It's also odd to require roads in National Parks to need permission when it's nothing to do with the NP but the highway authority, therefore why just in the NP? "Is it dangerous to pull up there to look at rocks might be a valid safety question?", but what's that got to do with a NP? Don't understand that one at all.

 

I've had a couple on hold for at least a year because I've been unable to find anybody prepared to claim ownership (or stewardship) of the places in question - including the local authority that provided the info boards at both sites

 

Shame. Trying to identify landowners is often very difficult.

[+Happy Humphrey]

Anyone could set up an EC listing website and a landowner would not have any legal way of preventing anyone from listing an EC if it doesn't involve trespassing, ie. CROW land. The same with walk listing sites, great country pub walks, or waterfall walks lists etc.

In fact, the trespass law is very different in the US. There, it's more of an offence. In England you could only be escorted off the land (assuming it's not Access Land), and that's the most that's likely to happen if there's no sign of any damage being caused. In Scotland it's different again (more freedom).

 

It's also odd to require roads in National Parks to need permission when it's nothing to do with the NP but the highway authority, therefore why just in the NP? "Is it dangerous to pull up there to look at rocks might be a valid safety question?", but what's that got to do with a NP? Don't understand that one at all.

I might have lost it a bit here as it's getting complicated, but I think that the National Parks restrictions are based on the assumption that all NPs are as in the USA. The NP system in the US is based on a totally different concept to that in the UK; they're areas of preservation in the States, whereas ours, although managed to some extent, are basically fully exploited for agriculture, industry and tourism.

[+tsiolkovsky]

Happy Humphrey is quite right. It's only if your naked bits are likely to cause offence that they become of interest to the police. While I'm here...

 

Actually that's an interesting point. I wonder if now 'll be able to submit 'The Rude man of Cerne Abbas' as an earth cache? The last time I tried it, and despite getting written permission from the NT landowners, I was turned down because it was a lude and unsavory subject for an earthcache...

[+Bear and Ragged]

Happy Humphrey is quite right. It's only if your naked bits are likely to cause offence that they become of interest to the police. While I'm here...

 

Actually that's an interesting point. I wonder if now 'll be able to submit 'The Rude man of Cerne Abbas' as an earth cache? The last time I tried it, and despite getting written permission from the NT landowners, I was turned down because it was a lude and unsavory subject for an earthcache...

Slighly OT. I believe Earth Caches are supposed to be natural features. The Cerne Giant is a man made feature.

(But it doesn't offend me.)

[+keehotee]

Happy Humphrey is quite right. It's only if your naked bits are likely to cause offence that they become of interest to the police. While I'm here...

 

Actually that's an interesting point. I wonder if now 'll be able to submit 'The Rude man of Cerne Abbas' as an earth cache? The last time I tried it, and despite getting written permission from the NT landowners, I was turned down because it was a lude and unsavory subject for an earthcache...

 

That'll explain why they wouldn't let me put one in Sandy Balls then..

 

 

(cue another rude place names thread - ooooh, there's a good idea for a (non-micro) cache series)

[+Moote]

Happy Humphrey is quite right. It's only if your naked bits are likely to cause offence that they become of interest to the police. While I'm here...

 

Actually that's an interesting point. I wonder if now 'll be able to submit 'The Rude man of Cerne Abbas' as an earth cache? The last time I tried it, and despite getting written permission from the NT landowners, I was turned down because it was a lude and unsavory subject for an earthcache...

 

That'll explain why they wouldn't let me put one in Sandy Balls then..

 

 

(cue another rude place names thread - ooooh, there's a good idea for a (non-micro) cache series)

DO NOT FEED THE SIMPLY PAUL. You know that the above is a cue for him to post many "rude" placenames

[Neath Worthies]

To drag this back on topic could a passing reviewer/lackey please answer my original question.

 

Thanks.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Neath Worthies

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I was looking at earth caches a little while ago and now I know why there are not many available.

 

This is the wierdest thing I have ever read on these forums yet. Let me get this straight, ECs are like virtual caches - arrive at a publicly accessible/open site, take a photo/answer some questions then log as found. But permission is required to list an EC for this?

 

If that's right I think I just wandered into Bizarro world. Yeah, I know it's not Groundspeak who are responsible.

 

I'm having trouble reconciling the fact that I can, as a UK subject, visit someplace, take photo's and study it freely, even write up about it online (eg. in my personal blog) and encourage people to do the same. But express 'permission' must be gained in order list on geocaching.com, so that other people, who are completely entitled to do the same thing, can read the listing and do it?

 

Once again, I know it's not GS, but whoever wrote these rules must have a really institutionalised mindset.

Edited January 28, 2010 by _TeamFitz_

[+Moote]

To drag this back on topic could a passing reviewer/lackey please answer my original question.

 

Thanks.

 

I think they can't answer without opening a huge can of worms, so that is why they are no longer answering, because as of yet, they have been proved incorrect with their present answer, with the sole exception that GSA applying rules which are only be applicable in the US, to Earthcaches in the UK.

[Deceangi]

How about GSA as a Non Government, Private Education Organisation, prefer not to alienate landowners in any way. So require Permission off Landowners as a sign of respect towards them.

 

On a side note a Landowner whose Land is CRoW 200 Act, can still request a person to leave their land at any time. So even though you feel that there is no requirement for permission to set a EC on Open Access land, the Landowner could still require someone attempting to log it, to leave their land.

 

Now compare that to the situation in France, there are no trespass laws. And you even have a legal right to go hunting on someone's land, provided you are not within 50m of any dwelling.

 

Whilst the above is not a official answer for Neath Worthies, as I'm not a employee or Volunteer for GSA. I hope it does go towards explaining things. If not the best place to obtain a answer would be to post the question in the EC forums, asking Geoaware [who is a GSA Employee] for a reply.

 

Deci

Geocache Only Reviewer

[+Happy Humphrey]

To drag this back on topic could a passing reviewer/lackey please answer my original question.

 

Thanks.

What was it? That link takes me to Martlakes' post which doesn't ask a question.

[+Happy Humphrey]

How about GSA as a Non Government, Private Education Organisation, prefer not to alienate landowners in any way. So require Permission off Landowners as a sign of respect towards them.

Nice try, but I don't think it's worth trying to defend the indefensible.

No-one is saying that there might not be a few locations where access is restricted and the co-operation of the landowner could be necessary. It's the blanket application of the rule that causes incredulity.

 

On a side note a Landowner whose Land is CRoW 200 Act, can still request a person to leave their land at any time. So even though you feel that there is no requirement for permission to set a EC on Open Access land, the Landowner could still require someone attempting to log it, to leave their land.

I've read the Act several times (as I take an interest in public land access), and I don't recall anything like that. AFAIK a landowner can't just arbitrarily throw people off the land without good reason. Particularly in Scotland. Although they can place certain restrictions on access, they are only allowed to do this under particular circumstances with various conditions attached.

 

Most earthcache sites will have some sort of public footpath or road access anyway, hence the bafflement. It's asking for permission to do something than is commonly done without permission.

[+keehotee]

It's asking for permission to do something than is commonly done without permission.

 

No, it's not.

 

It's setting a condition for listing your Earthcache on Groundspeak's site.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

You are still allowed to set your earthcache wherever you want, with permission, without permission, in fancy dress and including ALRs too if you want.

Where you then list it is up to you

Edited January 28, 2010 by keehotee

[+Moote]

 

On a side note a Landowner whose Land is CRoW 200 Act, can still request a person to leave their land at any time. So even though you feel that there is no requirement for permission to set a EC on Open Access land, the Landowner could still require someone attempting to log it, to leave their land.

 

 

Not entirely true, they can only do this with good reason, examples of this are when the land is being used for am activity such as a grouse shoot, or if there is a government restriction placed on the land, such as Foot and Mouth. Other than that the landowner would have to prove that they were in their rights to request you leave their land.

[+Happy Humphrey]

It's setting a condition for listing your Earthcache on Groundspeak's site.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

You are still allowed to set your earthcache wherever you want, with permission, without permission, in fancy dress and including ALRs too if you want.

Where you then list it is up to you

That's a bit academic. You can call a location an "earthcache" and publish details in a leaflet if you like, but that's not what we're talking about.

It's not really an "earthcache" in this context unless it's an official one, and to be official it has to obey the GSA rules.

 

So if you submit an earthcache for review and it's at a site where the public commonly visits in droves, but you don't give formal permission details; you don't end up with an earthcache. The same as if you'd submitted an earthcache with a location a hundred miles from home, or with coordinates 100 metres from a micro on a railing.

[+keehotee]

It's setting a condition for listing your Earthcache on Groundspeak's site.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

You are still allowed to set your earthcache wherever you want, with permission, without permission, in fancy dress and including ALRs too if you want.

Where you then list it is up to you

That's a bit academic. You can call a location an "earthcache" and publish details in a leaflet if you like, but that's not what we're talking about.

It's not really an "earthcache" in this context unless it's an official one, and to be official it has to obey the GSA rules.

 

So if you submit an earthcache for review and it's at a site where the public commonly visits in droves, but you don't give formal permission details; you don't end up with an earthcache. The same as if you'd submitted an earthcache with a location a hundred miles from home, or with coordinates 100 metres from a micro on a railing.

 

That'll be why I called one an Earthcache, and the other an earthcache then.....

 

Perhaps these posts would be better off posted in the Earthcache forum where they belong?

[Neath Worthies]

How about GSA as a Non Government, Private Education Organisation, prefer not to alienate landowners in any way. So require Permission off Landowners as a sign of respect towards them.

 

<snip>

 

Whilst the above is not a official answer for Neath Worthies, as I'm not a employee or Volunteer for GSA. I hope it does go towards explaining things. If not the best place to obtain a answer would be to post the question in the EC forums, asking Geoaware [who is a GSA Employee] for a reply.

 

Deci

Geocache Only Reviewer

Thank you for your attempt to answer Deci even though I am still unconvinced (maybe that's MY problem in understanding). However I still feel it more appropriate to ask it here as this is a UK forum, discussing the application of a guideline in the UK by GeoawareUK which results in what many (some? me?) feel is an unwarranted imposition given the UK's legal position, being quite different to that normally encountered by the Geological Society of America.

 

Perhaps these posts would be better off posted in the Earthcache forum where they belong?

I disagree for the reasons stated above. In any case, I can't see too many Americans being particularly interested in rights of access in the UK. I know the main forums are described as being open to anybody, in practice they are vastly dominated by American geocachers. That's why Country groups have been separated off.

[+Happy Humphrey]

I disagree for the reasons stated above.

Absolutely. We're discussing the application of US Earthcache rules to the UK situation and how well they work (or not). So the thread belongs here.

[+keehotee]

I disagree for the reasons stated above.

Absolutely. We're discussing the application of US Earthcache rules to the UK situation and how well they work (or not). So the thread belongs here.

 

Then perhaps you should also be discussing the establishment of UK Earthcaches - rather than earthcaches administered by the Geological Society of America.

Has anybody spoken to the BGS???

[Neath Worthies]

Then perhaps you should also be discussing the establishment of UK Earthcaches

They already exist, but not on GC. I can't provide a link here for fear of breaching a guideline but a more general kind of cache, known as an "Educache", exists which encompasses all the elements of an Earthcache and is already in place.

[+Happy Humphrey]

Then perhaps you should also be discussing the establishment of UK Earthcaches - rather than earthcaches administered by the Geological Society of America.

Has anybody spoken to the BGS???

The only earthcaches (or Earthcaches) currently in existence are the ones listed on geocaching.com and Waymarking.com. They have to follow the rules on these sites, however inappropriate for locations outside the US.

 

But you're right that there should perhaps be some UK Earthcaches separate from these, that also take local laws and customs into account and of interest to the BGS. If you're keen, start a new thread (although it might not be welcomed by Groundspeak as their GSA earthcaches are meant to be worldwide).

 

But we'd probably end up with even worse rules and regulations anyway ("health and safety" and "liability" concerns would make it almost impossible to submit one!). It might be easier to get the GSA to amend their rules and make them less US-centric, or at least more flexible.

[+SidAndBob]

So, you may not need written permission to place a physical cache, but if you want to place a virtual EC in the same location you must provide written permission.

That makes sense!

 

If you defend this rule then logically ALL physical caches must evidence written permission too.

[+geoawareUK]

So, you may not need written permission to place a physical cache, but if you want to place a virtual EC in the same location you must provide written permission.

 

No. As with ay other cache in the UK where permission is required (such as a traditional in an SSSI) you need to confirm in a 'note to reviewer' that you have obtained permission and give the contact details of the individual who gave that permission. If you wish to add the text of the email or letter that's great.

 

Written permission is ony needed "when applicable". To be honest, the only circumstances where I can think that might occur would be if an EC were to be located in an area covered by a GAGB Landowner Agreement that required written proof.

 

geoawareUK