Mac + DeLorme geocachers

[+user13371]

For a while there, it looked like DeLorme was moving in the direction of delivering some good cross-platform tools -- at least for geocaching. Cache Register was available for both PC and Mac and offered pretty much the same feature set.

 

Now looking forwad to their next firmwre update, I'm a little concerend. In the DeLorme blog, there are these comments:

* We will continue to support all of the PN-Series devices and will release a 2.8 firmware update for the 30 and 40.

* The 2.8 firmware update will deliver waypoint and track file management on the SD card.

* The 2.8 firmware update is available only with Topo USA 9.0

—PN-40s and 30s with the 2.8 firmware update will not work with Topo USA 8.0 and earlier versions.

So... what about Mac users, particularly those using Cache Register?

 

If I have a 2.8-updated PN-40, will I need a new version of Cache Register?

If there's a new version fo Cache Register that works with firmware 2.8, will there be a way to get it without buying T9?

 

It might make sense for DeLorme to bundle Cache Register, both Mac & PC versions, in the T9 package. And while I would probably buy that just for the firmware update and newer pre-cut maps, I'm sure it will irk a lot of Mac users to think they have to buy a pretty big/expensive PC software package just to get a firmware update and a geocaching widget.

[robertlipe]

—PN-40s and 30s with the 2.8 firmware update will not work with Topo USA 8.0 and earlier versions.

 

I wonder if that's "just" a map incompatibility or an incompatible implementation of delbin. As just this weekend, I saw a second application had implemented it, that would be most unfortunate if that's indeed the case.

[+dakboy]

—PN-40s and 30s with the 2.8 firmware update will not work with Topo USA 8.0 and earlier versions.

 

I wonder if that's "just" a map incompatibility or an incompatible implementation of delbin. As just this weekend, I saw a second application had implemented it, that would be most unfortunate if that's indeed the case.

From what Chip has said, it sounds like protocol, not map data. The PN-60 is supposed to be faster than the '40 for transferring data to the host PC (but it's unclear as to whether the speed boost is due to protocol changes or hardware), and the firmware will only talk to T9. Also from the blog post:

*Improvements have been made increasing processor speed and USB transfer rates.

* This update will allow PN-30/40 owners to use the new Sync dialog.

* There are no data format changes in Topo USA 9.0 or the new GPS device; maps created with Topo USA 8.0 are still compatible with the new PN-60 and 60w.

Edited January 25, 2010 by dakboy

[+user13371]

Yes, but if firmware 2.8 "will only talk to T9" I expect the protocol difference will break the current version Cache Register also. I just haven't seen word of an updated Cache Register yet.

 

I hope there WILL be one -- or even better, that D. will decide to include it (both PC and Mac versions) in the box with T9.

[+Klemmer]

Hi Lee:

From what I've read about T9, it will contain a "SYNC" function, which sounds a lot like the Cache Register Widget. So rather than bundling CR with T9, it sounds to me like T9 will functionally include the CR capability. Just my interpretation.

 

I know this doesn't solve your Mac interface situation. Even as a PC, I sure wish Delorme would support Mac better. I think it's shortsighted on their part.

 

I know several cachers / BM'ers that swear by MacCaching. If you could twist their arm into supporting Delorme PN's for direct downloading (including full cache pages / datasheets), you might really have a good route. It took Clyde at GSAK (no Mac version) quite a while to support Delorme, but now that he does, it works very nicely (with PN-40SE firmware ver 2.7). Worth a shot.

 

Hmmm.... Did Robert Lipe (Chief Babel-Head) work with Clyde on the Delorme interface (GSAK runs a lot of GPSBabel "under the hood")? Babel runs on OSX. Maybe you've got something there... Robert?

 

-- Klemmer

(PC trying to help Mac. Possible future Mac user?)

[+user13371]

Klemmer - Robert's GPSBabel (which is also GSAK/Clyde's hook into DeLorme and other GPS hardware) has a reverse-engineered implementation of DeLorme's protocol.

 

As far as I know, DeLorme did not support that effort.

[+dakboy]

From what I've read about T9, it will contain a "SYNC" function, which sounds a lot like the Cache Register Widget. So rather than bundling CR with T9, it sounds to me like T9 will functionally include the CR capability. Just my interpretation.

I get and understand that. It makes total sense.

 

However, I don't like the prospect of having to load up all of TopoUSA just to sync a PQ. Maybe there'll be a "lightweight" version included, or T9 will just call a component which can run on its own outside T9 to do these tasks.

 

And still leaves open the question of "what about CR on the Mac?" Have we been abandoned?

 

I know several cachers / BM'ers that swear by MacCaching. If you could twist their arm into supporting Delorme PN's for direct downloading (including full cache pages / datasheets), you might really have a good route. It took Clyde at GSAK (no Mac version) quite a while to support Delorme, but now that he does, it works very nicely (with PN-40SE firmware ver 2.7). Worth a shot.

 

Hmmm.... Did Robert Lipe (Chief Babel-Head) work with Clyde on the Delorme interface (GSAK runs a lot of GPSBabel "under the hood")? Babel runs on OSX. Maybe you've got something there... Robert?

MacCaching I think (but don't quote me) uses GPSBabel behind the scenes as well.

 

The catch with the above (and setting aside my disappointment with the capabilities of MacCaching) is that if the DeLorme protocol is changing, as seems to be implied by what we've been told thus far, everyone has to wait for GPSBabel to catch up with the changes.

Edited January 25, 2010 by dakboy

[robertlipe]

everyone has to wait for GPSBabel to catch up with the changes.

 

GPSBabel is open source. Delorme is welcome and encouraged to send me patches if it is indeed incompatible.

 

I don't miss the days when no two Garmins in a row would use the same protocol.

 

Then again, maybe they scrapped their protocol completely (it was clearly a serial protocol bolted onto USB) and went whole-hog with an open, file-based staard such as GPX, as Garmin did.

[+user13371]

Then again, maybe they scrapped (delbin) completely

One can always hope.

 

If DeLorme would let us load caches (or other waypoints, tracks, routes, etc) just by dropping a GPX onto its filesystem, that'd really be great. And I'd happily pay for that firmware update!

Edited January 25, 2010 by lee_rimar

[+dakboy]

Then again, maybe they scrapped (delbin) completely

One can always hope.

 

If DeLorme would let us load caches (or other waypoints, tracks, routes, etc) just by dropping a GPX onto its filesystem, that'd really be great. And I'd happily pay for that firmware update!

That's exactly what's going to happen with 2.8, unless I misread something along the way. But then we're back to the origins of this thread - if you're using 2.8 but can't use Topo9, what happens?

 

You already can do some of it w/ 2.7, using the device itself as an intermediary. Load caches the way you normally do, save to a GPX file on the SD card, lather, rinse, repeat.

[+user13371]

That's exactly what's going to happen with 2.8, unless I misread something along the way. But then we're back to the origins of this thread - if you're using 2.8 but can't use Topo9, what happens?

As it reads now, you'll have to buy the update -- even if that means the PC software part of it sits on a shelf gathering dust. But that's just how I read it, I doubt it's cast in stone.

 

You already can do some of it w/ 2.7, using the device itself as an intermediary. Load caches the way you normally do, save to a GPX file on the SD card, lather, rinse, repeat.

That's one direction only, doesn't support real bi-directional syncing, and doesn't let you load other kinds of data (like tracks) from the card back to memory. Those are the 2.8 features I want.

 

Nah, what I really want is feature parity -- if DeLorme offers capability X on PC, I want to be able to do X on the Mac with DeLorme-supported native software. Not by knocking on Robert's door or running through some subsetted web portal.

 

But I'll take what I can get.

[+humboldt flier]

To borrow from urban speak:

We are the redheaded fatherless children of the universe, however with DeLorme there is some movement in acknowledging us. LOL, LOL, tongue in cheek

 

O.K. redheads, vent your wrath and void your rhuem

[+dakboy]

Cache Register (Mac & PC) will be updated to support FW 2.8.

[+user13371]

I noticed Chip answered that last night:

 

http://blog.delorme.com/2010/01/19/pn-60w-...r/#comment-2304

 

But he didn't say Mac users would be able to GET firmware 2.8 short of buying Topo 9.

[+dakboy]

I noticed Chip answered that last night:

 

http://blog.delorme.com/2010/01/19/pn-60w-...r/#comment-2304

 

But he didn't say Mac users would be able to GET firmware 2.8 short of buying Topo 9.

I know, I'm still scratching my head on that one.

 

I can think of a few ways it could all happen, all of which leave lots of room for people to get confused & upset. I'm just taking a wait & see approach at this point; At the moment, I'm not planning on purchasing the T9 upgrade w/o getting a PN-60 anyway.

Edited January 26, 2010 by dakboy

[+user13371]

I won't be buying a PN-60 but will probably buy T9. I skipped the T8 upgrade, so I'd like new precut maps anyhow.

[+Team DeLorme]

We'll be pushing an updated Cache Register version to existing Cache Register customers and it will include the 2.8 firmware. We'll add the 2.8 firmware to the install that is being sold to new Cache Register customers. That will let all existing and new users of Cache Register get the latest firmware for their PN-30/40. This new firmware will allow people to drop GPX files onto the SD card for their PN-30/40 devices and open them in the Geocaches page to take advantage of paperless caching and GPX file management for waypoints, geocaches, and tracks.

 

To get the latest detailed maps including our paper Atlas & Gazetteer descriptions you will need to pay the upgrade price for Topo USA 9.0. There are lots of good road and trail updates so I think it will be worth it, even for those that can't use the Sync feature.

 

We're aware that there are many useful 3rd party applications out there for GPS data management. We'll be reaching out to help development using our new PN exchange protocol. We're excited to see several programs supporting the DeLorme PN-Series devices and want to help our users that are looking for options like the Mac support mentioned here.

 

Check out our blog for more details on what we're working on.

 

http://blog.delorme.com/2010/01/06/delorme...-communication/

 

There are lots of questions out there so I've tried to bring some of the answers into one location. I'll have to link this thread back in... the geocaching community definitely pushes our products with great questions, suggestions, and critical feedback. It's very much appreciated.

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

[robertlipe]

We'll be reaching out to help development using our new PN exchange protocol.

I look forward to your patch submission.