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DyverDown

The Great Garmin Rip-Off

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Open Street Maps offers 100% free routable maps of the entire planet. Their data updates updates often, and I have found it to be just as reliable as CityNav NT.

 

garmin.na1400.info/routable.php

But no POIs.

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Garmin continues to support (and offer map updates) after discontinuing older units.

 

Actually they have stopped releasing upgrades for non-NT maps, so any older models that do not support NT, can no longer get upgrades.

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I expect to be treated fairly and in MY opinion this is not. I completely offer, that this is entirely MY opinion and yours may vary, but to comment that I have an air of entitlement is a little lofty itself sir.

 

I believe (again opinion) that in this situation it would not be difficult, costly nor and other words to that effect for Garmin to offer the upgrade. I completely understand that they have to draw a line somewhere and I would expect this to be at the 60 day interval, or even the 30 day interval they offer the one free upgrade for.

 

I'm not sure where you think you are being treated unfairly. Garmin gives you one free upgrade. You used it. Now you want to pitch a fit because a new upgrade came out two days after you used your freebie and Garmin won't just give you another for free. Is that about the gist of it? You may take offense to someone claiming you have a sense of entitlement, but that is exactly what this sounds like. If you feel you're getting "ripped off" by Garmin, perhaps you should return the unit and buy from a competitor.

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...I guess I am just venting here and looking for a sounding board... am I being obtuse or is Garmin giving me the shaft?

 

Haven't read the entire thread so I may repeat what some say.

 

About a year a go I got my wife a high end Nuvi GPS for her job. We turned it on and the very first road we tried didn't exist on the GPS. So I looked and figured out there was a map update available. Garmin said "that will be 69.00 please" and I said "No freaking way (more nicely)" since I had also read that Garmin will give you a free update if your Nuvi is out of date when you get it home and turn it on.

 

Seems that what had happned was the GPS had reported to Garmin via the software interface for updating maps that it's first start up date was several months before and not a couple of days before. By that date I no longer qualified for a free map upgrade. However after going round and round a bit I got the right person who said they can base my free upgrade based on the purchase date. We got it squared away once I gave them a copy of my receipt so they could comfirm there was no monkey business on my part.

 

Reading the last post: Your timing sucked on when you got your free upgrade, but it's a known thing. One free map upgrade within a certain timeframe from buying your GPS. Meaning update it when you get it out of the box and that's all she wrote.

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Remember when claiming airs of entitlement, there are other ways the situation can be viewed.

 

One is the favourite tactic of software vendors and Internet providers. The 12 page EULA that mentions a restriction somewhere around the bottom of page 10. 95% of people on the planet don't read that and get shafted by the vendor for something or another.

 

But another thing we've all gotten used to - the idea of an upgrade to the current product when we buy something. I liken this to buying a computer - your (modern) GPS is hardware (Colorado / Nuvi / eXplorist / whatever) and doesn't do much with out software - City Navigator / Topo Canada / whatever.

 

When I buy a computer a month before the next version of Windows appears, there is an 'upgrade certificate' in the box that gives me one upgrade say to Windows 7, and that may be what the OP is used to. Of course you don't get a free upgrade to Windows 8, Microsoft wants their money for that. The difference here is the update frequency - Nuvimaps update every three months while Windows updates every 3 years.

 

What's underhanded here is that the Nuvimaps are on a schedule, and that schedule should be disclosed to the updating customer a little better. I doubt the OP would have hit the 'update' button if a messagebox or web page involved in the process indicated an update was scheduled to occur in the next two days.

 

The next point I'm sure I'll hear is that it was up to the OP to research Garmin's release schedules before updating. While a lot of us are constantly monitoring the GPS review and blog sites, and crawling around the Garmin updates page there is a large segment of the population that simply buys a GPS and wants it to work - and that's the market Garmin is chasing.

 

--

 

Entitled? No, technically he spent his money and got exactly what was promised, to the letter.

 

But, as a previous Magellan eXplorist customer I can see the other side of the fence:

 

When I bought my eXplorist I was one of the first people in Canada to own one. I called up Magellan to ask them about map product support - and was directed to DirectRoute 2.0. That product never did properly support my GPS unit at all, and I was plagued with problems with waypoint names and routing. The product cost me as much as my GPS did, and didn't support it. 6 Months later, they finally released DirectRoute 3.0 which fully supported my eXplorist. The 'upgrade' price Magellan offered me to get maps that actually worked for my unit was -- full retail again. The choice I was given with my eXplorist was to buy my maps twice, at full retail - or buy a GPS and wait 6 months before loading a single map on it.

 

So I put that money into a Garmin Colorado.

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Northern Penguin, I still think the OP is upset over a very minor, perhaps non-existent problem.

 

If he had waited a few days to buy the update, he would have gotten maps that are at best, a few months newer. Unless he frequently travels in areas that have been built-up a lot very recently, the update probably contain changes he would never see. Maybe, maybe not.

 

Whether he got last month's or this month's maps for free, a few months from now he'll be facing the exact same situation: Garmin wants $ again if he wants updated maps, and it would be his choice whether or not they were worth it.

 

This is unavoidable. Whether you buy maps on paper or electronically, they're eventually out of date. Garmin's pricing and policies are a very reasonable way for customers to keep up with changes.

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If he had waited a few days to buy the update, he would have gotten maps that are at best, a few months newer. Unless he frequently travels in areas that have been built-up a lot very recently, the update probably contain changes he would never see. Maybe, maybe not.

 

I'm in DyverDown's area, and the major thing I'll bet he's looking for is the expressway extensions that have been occurring around here. Mind you, they seem to have missed the 410 extension on the last three updates (including 2010.4) Our government has basically reacted to the economy by building out everything they can.

 

This is unavoidable. Whether you buy maps on paper or electronically, they're eventually out of date. Garmin's pricing and policies are a very reasonable way for customers to keep up with changes.

 

Totally, 100% agree with this. Garmin has been a dream with regards to map (and GPS firmware) updates compared to certain other companies I've dealt with ... *cough*Magellan*cough*.

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Like a moth to the flame, I cannot resist a comment...

 

It seems to me that Garmin could avoid engendering customer ill will with an explicit statement of an update schedule on the relevant download page. It doesn't seem to me that they would lose any sales by letting customers decide whether to do the currently available update or wait for the next one down the road. Maybe I'm missing a reason why Garmin wouldn't want to do that, but it seems like a small cost to provide the data to allow users to feel they have made an informed choice.

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Like a moth to the flame, I cannot resist a comment...

 

It seems to me that Garmin could avoid engendering customer ill will with an explicit statement of an update schedule on the relevant download page. It doesn't seem to me that they would lose any sales by letting customers decide whether to do the currently available update or wait for the next one down the road. Maybe I'm missing a reason why Garmin wouldn't want to do that, but it seems like a small cost to provide the data to allow users to feel they have made an informed choice.

 

Could be they don't know exactly when NavTeq will make the update available and the processing time to get the update ready for distribution.

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I'm really rather surprised that anyone would defend Garmin on this one. By the "only one update" way of thinking, it would be financially foolish to do any updates prior to the 60 day mark since waiting for the last day would be the only way to ensure that you got the most recent update possible for the device. In other words, the policy strongly encourages people to use the device for two full months WITHOUT the latest update, which is a ridiculous proposition for a mapping device.

 

The logical way to handle this would be to let people update the map as many times as there are updates for 60 days after purchase. The only thing that Garmin would possibly lose by doing this would be a few extra sales to the people who made the mistake of updating too early after getting the device -- in other words, the people who got stung by the incredibly unfriendly rule.

 

Companies should be held to higher customer service policies. I would have absolutely NO problem returing the device in this situation and getting a new one that could be updated. I wouldn't even be dishonest about it -- I would come right out and say that a new map update was available, but that due to the unreasonable Garmin rule I was not able to get it, which reduces the functionality of the device. If you're within your return/exchange window, I don't see any reason to deny this.

 

Larry

I read this as make it free and let them not make a profit. I could be wrong but developing and providing updates takes effort and resources which must be paid for somehow. Generally speaking, I think some geocachers are beginning to have the air of entitlement about them. :)

 

i agree 100% on this one. did garmin deceive in any way? no. did they not give you something they said they would? no. it was just bad timing, get over it.

 

I've ran into this issue in the software world and it is rather irritating. But there's nothing you can really do about it. What is Garmin supposed to do, go around to a couple million GPS users and find out of everyone's ready for an update? They have to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

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I've ran into this issue in the software world and it is rather irritating. But there's nothing you can really do about it. What is Garmin supposed to do, go around to a couple million GPS users and find out of everyone's ready for an update? They have to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

 

Nuvimaps are a quarterly subscription - Garmin knows when they're publishing the maps - typically every three months. Have the device or web link display the date of the next update right near that "I AGREE" button should suffice, rather than trying to contact millions of devices.

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Entitlement? Obtuse? Are you kidding? This is poor customer service from Garmin any way you cut it. The OP should have been informed that another update was coming so he could make an informed decision as to upgrade immediately or wait. That Garmin chooses not to do this is their problem, not the customer's.

 

All Garmin is doing by not taking care of this is pissing off a customer. It's completely pointless since he can just go and return the unit and get another one, which is exactly what he should do.

 

Companies that have black and white interpretations of their policies are not focusing on customer service. It's shortsighted and foolish. With navigation popping up on phones left and right, plus Google muscling in with free navigation, Garmin should be bending over backwards to take care of their customers, not screwing them.

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Entitlement? Obtuse? Are you kidding? This is poor customer service from Garmin any way you cut it. The OP should have been informed that another update was coming so he could make an informed decision as to upgrade immediately or wait. That Garmin chooses not to do this is their problem, not the customer's.

 

All Garmin is doing by not taking care of this is pissing off a customer. It's completely pointless since he can just go and return the unit and get another one, which is exactly what he should do.

 

Companies that have black and white interpretations of their policies are not focusing on customer service. It's shortsighted and foolish. With navigation popping up on phones left and right, plus Google muscling in with free navigation, Garmin should be bending over backwards to take care of their customers, not screwing them.

 

You think Garmin is screwing the customers - you should see what they appear to be up to when it comes to third party map authors ... particularly the ones selling locked maps of their own. They may be reacting in a protectionist way rather than an openness way to preserve the status quo / their jobs.

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There are updates every three months. Who really cares if you have three month old maps. Now if there were yearly updates and you updated the day before the update, you might have a reason to complain, but this is rediculous.

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Entitlement? Obtuse? Are you kidding? This is poor customer service from Garmin any way you cut it. The OP should have been informed that another update was coming so he could make an informed decision as to upgrade immediately or wait. That Garmin chooses not to do this is their problem, not the customer's.

 

All Garmin is doing by not taking care of this is pissing off a customer. It's completely pointless since he can just go and return the unit and get another one, which is exactly what he should do.

 

Companies that have black and white interpretations of their policies are not focusing on customer service. It's shortsighted and foolish. With navigation popping up on phones left and right, plus Google muscling in with free navigation, Garmin should be bending over backwards to take care of their customers, not screwing them.

 

IT'S CALLED A CONTRACT! Even if the OP reads none of or only parts of the Garmin agreement, the moment he goes onto Garmin's website to update his Nuvi, he has entered into a CONTRACT with Garmin. Part of that contract states that there shall be only "1 FREE UPDATE" during the first 60 days after the unit is registered on Garmin's website. The OP contracted for "1 FREE UPDATE", and that's exactly what he got. Garmin isn't screwing anyone; the OP is trying to get more than he's entitled to, as per the agreement.

Edited by rocketsteve

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Actually, it's called misleading and poor customer service. A contract with your customer is only good as long as you have customers. What's more important? Taking care of a customer or making sure you stick to the letter of the contract?

 

The absolute kicker is that Garmin is causing themselves considerable trouble for no reason since they have no way to enforce the contract. The customer just bought his unit and can simply go return it. Then their dealer will show additional returns, have the expense of dealing with it, and Garmin will ultimately as well.

 

Now, if the updates come out every three months it's not a huge deal (at least to me). However, it doesn't change the fact that customers should be informed a new update is expected or of the update schedule so that they can make an informed decision.

 

Many things can be enforced by a contract. That doesn't mean they are ethically correct. Customers know the difference and will show their preferences with their wallets.

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Actually, it's called misleading and poor customer service.

 

[...]

 

Many things can be enforced by a contract. That doesn't mean they are ethically correct. Customers know the difference and will show their preferences with their wallets.

 

Baloney.

 

They are doing you a favor by letting you update the maps once for free. They didn't have to do that.

 

A 'suggestion' that they publish when map updates will be coming out is a fine idea. Please make it to Garmin so the next folks might someday be able to make a more informed decistion.

 

But save the "but we're entitled to..." whining because you are not entitled to any such thing.

 

And yes you can vote with your feet and shop elsewhere. That is always an option.

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Since Garmin is the largest manufacturer of GPS devices in the world, I don't see them having a problem maintaining market share or a solid, not to mention growing, customer base.

 

How can you call an agreement, printed in English and stating that customers get "1 FREE UPDATE" during the first 60 days after registration, MISLEADING?

 

I challenge you to show where Garmin has been "ethically" questionable in their customer agreement or their customer service practices.

 

Quote OpenTrackRacer:

 

"Customers know the difference and will show their preferences with their wallets."

 

As I stated earlier, Garmin is #1 in the GPS market, so it would seem customers HAVE been showing their preferences with their wallets.

Edited by rocketsteve

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Well, as they say, there's a sucker born every minute.

 

Garmin isn't doing anyone a favor but themselves by offering the free map upgrade. They did it because customers wouldn't stand for expensive map upgrades on products they just purchased that had outdated maps. The obvious fact that it takes time from when a GPS receiver is loaded with software and maps until it's available on store shelves for purchase seems to escape you guys.

 

I never said anyone was entitled to anything. I said that Garmin should have done the right thing and given the OP the second map upgrade. I also said the customer should do the right thing and his return the unit. Garmin has no power to enforce it's contact in this case. The customer has all the power here and Garmin should recognize that.

 

I don't want to burst your bubble rocketsteve but Garmin has plenty to worry about with regard to market share for road navigation units. Phone and Smartphone based navigation products are a significant impediment to Garmin and Google's introduction of free turn by turn directions on Android sent their stock plummeting recently. It's likely that Google's navigation software will be coming to other platforms such as the iPhone and WebOS in the future so Garmin's problems are going to get worse, not better.

 

GM used to be #1 in their market as well so what point are you trying to make with your statement about Garmin?

 

Garmin ethics are questionable because they allowed customers to use their one free map upgrade without telling them that a new version of the map would be available in just a few days. It's certainly not illegal, but it's absolutely unethical.

 

Other than that, keep chugging the Kool-Aid. You guys are a business's wet dream.

Edited by OpenTrackRacer

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Is the OP actually injured by this? The maps (and POI listings) on his Nuvi are at most 3 months out of date. He still has maps and POI listings, but he might not know which gas stations and donut shops might have gone out of business in the last few months. Or which ones have opened up.

 

If he had downloaded his free update the day after the new release (instead of 2 days before), where would he be three months from now? In EXACTLY the same situation -- with a device a few months out of date, unless he's willing to pay up for a one-time update or a long-term subscription. And even if he buys the subscription, at the end of each quarter there's still a chance that he might not know about the latest donut shops.

 

I joke about gas stations and donut shops because these are likely to come and go. But really important landmarks -- like roads, Tim Hortons, and so on -- usually don't change much from one quarter to the next.

 

The flip side of this is: What would it cost Garmin? To give a on freebie just to the OP? Probably not much. But a freebie to everyone who calls up and says "I updated my maps two days ago (or last week, or last month) but I want the newest update now for free?" Make no sense.

Edited by lee_rimar

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GM used to be #1 in their market as well so what point are you trying to make with your statement about Garmin?

 

Could you have used a worse example? GM got into trouble because they agreed to union wage and benefit packages that were absolutely insane. They priced themselves almost to the point of oblivion, and if it hadn't been for the federal government coming in and wiping their butt, GM would have gone the way of the dinosaur. Please compare apples to apples if you want to make a point. :)

 

Quote OpenTrackRacer:

 

"I also said the customer should do the right thing and his return the unit."

 

DO THE RIGHT THING??!! The right thing would be for the OP to suck it up and get on with life. The right thing would be to NOT return the Nuvi because you didn't get the very latest Garmin update. The right thing is accepting the fact that things don't always go your way and, rather than complain about how unfair life is, get over it and move on.

Edited by rocketsteve

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GM failed for a myriad of reasons, not just labor issues. It doesn't matter though... just because a company is #1 doesn't mean they're doing things correctly at the present time or that they will continue to be #1 in the future. If you want a more relevant example that may be easier for you to understand just take a look at Magellan's history.

 

Back to the point at hand... the OP obviously feels he's been injured. If Garmin does indeed update the maps every three months then it wouldn't be a big deal to me but it is to him and he's the customer. None of that changes the fact that Garmin should publish an update schedule so their customers can be better informed so they can decide when in their 60 day window to upgrade. It would also prevent situations like this from happening in the first place. There is simply no good reason not to. There is also no good reason not to take care of the customer in a situation like this. Garmin is in business to sell things and keeping customers happy makes that happen. The OP could very will be so pissed off that instead of exchanging the unit he just returns it and moves on.

 

Companies shouldn't be asking their customers to "Suck it up and get on with life". The OP shouldn't have to and indeed doesn't have to. That's what makes Garmin's refusal to grant a second upgrade so pointless.

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Baloney.

 

They are doing you a favor by letting you update the maps once for free. They didn't have to do that.

Actually, they do, or they'd have a MAJOR mess with dead inventory being returned from distributors in a massive FIFO rotation (worse than it usually is, anyway). Would you buy that bottle of milk IF you thought it was probably already over the hill? No way to tell on a GPS until you fire it up and observe the map version that is installed. People would only want to buy "fresh stock" since it's entirely possible a GPS unit on a shelf is a year old. Garmin would be taking disty returns and reflashing them constantly.

 

No - they really don't have a good choice apart from allowing the original buyer to update his unit - at least once.

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Back to the point at hand... the OP obviously feels he's been injured.
But HAS he been? I'm all in favor of the principle that the customer is always right. Except when they're not :)

 

DyverDown, we haven't heard from you for a little while. Could you come back and give some insight on how this has actually harmed you, or impaired your use & enjoyment of the nuvi? What damages were caused by having maps and POI listings that are "three months minus two days" short of being the absolute most up to date available?

Edited by lee_rimar

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For those that have the snivel meter stuck on heavy whine, it really does not matter where in the 60 day cycle you update the maps, your going to come out "screwed" that you didn't get the latest update. Take the current update and get on with life. If you want the latest and greatest, spend the $69-$89 and get the lifetime update. Then you can have a new one every 3 months and don't have to whine that you didn't get the latest one. It's a given today that when you buy electronics your always buying the out of date, soon to be out of production gadget.

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GM failed for a myriad of reasons, not just labor issues. It doesn't matter though... just because a company is #1 doesn't mean they're doing things correctly at the present time or that they will continue to be #1 in the future. If you want a more relevant example that may be easier for you to understand just take a look at Magellan's history.

 

Back to the point at hand... the OP obviously feels he's been injured. If Garmin does indeed update the maps every three months then it wouldn't be a big deal to me but it is to him and he's the customer. None of that changes the fact that Garmin should publish an update schedule so their customers can be better informed so they can decide when in their 60 day window to upgrade. It would also prevent situations like this from happening in the first place. There is simply no good reason not to. There is also no good reason not to take care of the customer in a situation like this. Garmin is in business to sell things and keeping customers happy makes that happen. The OP could very will be so pissed off that instead of exchanging the unit he just returns it and moves on.

 

Companies shouldn't be asking their customers to "Suck it up and get on with life". The OP shouldn't have to and indeed doesn't have to. That's what makes Garmin's refusal to grant a second upgrade so pointless.

 

Since you like using GM, if you go and buy a car from one of their dealerships, do they owe you a new set of tires when they come out with a better performing tire for your model of car? Do they owe you oil changes every 3000 miles? Do they owe you a tune-up every few months? Do they owe you any or all of these things as long as you own that car? According to you, that would be good customer service. But, the answer is NO! You have to pay for those extra services, so why is a Nuvi GPSr any different. You buy the GPS with all the bells and whistles, and then Garmin "gives" you the opportunity for "1 FREE Download", which they don't have to do, and yet, you still have a problem with Garmin.

 

Are you standing in front of your local GM dealership demanding your new tires, free oil changes, and free tune-ups? I think not. :)

Edited by rocketsteve

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I used GM as an example in response to:

 

Since Garmin is the largest manufacturer of GPS devices in the world, I don't see them having a problem maintaining market share or a solid, not to mention growing, customer base.

Your example makes no sense and has no parallel to the issue (ie: it's pointless). So, let's say you bought a piece of software. The EULA includes one upgrade within the first 60 days. The software in the box is v5.0 and they have v5.3 available for download as your upgrade on the web site. You get it and two days later they come out with v6.0. They knew the new version was coming but didn't tell their customers. You used your upgrade and there is nothing they can do about it, so sorry. Are you happy? Are you going to "Suck it up" and deal with it? Let's say you bought it somewhere that accepts unconditional returns. Are you going to keep the outdated software when you can return it and get the new version? If you say "yes" you're either lying or crazy.

 

As I (and ecanderson) already said, they do indeed have to offer the upgrade to keep their customers happy. GPS receivers don't have a sticker on the box declaring the date on the maps. They could have been on the shelf for a week or six months (or longer). Customers are not going to accept buying a new GPSr with old maps so Garmin offers the upgrade. They're doing it to satisfy customer demand and increase sales so yes, they do have to do it.

 

Since you like using GM, if you go and buy a car from one of their dealerships, do they owe you a new set of tires when they come out with a better performing tire for your model of car? Do they owe you oil changes every 3000 miles? Do they owe you a tune-up every few months? Do they owe you any or all of these things as long as you own that car? According to you, that would be good customer service. But, the answer is NO! You have to pay for those extra services, so why is a Nuvi GPSr any different. You buy the GPS with all the bells and whistles, and then Garmin "gives" you the opportunity for "1 FREE Download", which they don't have to do, and yet, you still have a problem with Garmin.

 

Are you standing in front of your local GM dealership demanding your new tires, free oil changes, and free tune-ups? I think not. :)

Edited by OpenTrackRacer

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Bad analogy, OTR. You're implying by the jump in version numbers that 6.0 is a big change over 5.3, and that it was a surprise.

 

Garmin's updates are minor changes and the frequnecy - four times a year - is known. There should be no surprise or angst about taking the free update - or even a paid one - and seeing it become outdated in some time between 1 and 89 days later.

Edited by lee_rimar

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I used those version numbers to exaggerate the point. However, even it it was v5.3 and they came out with v5.4 two days later most people would feel the same way as the OP. Something else worth noting... you knew that Garmin updates their maps four times a year. I didn't know that until I read it here and I'm guessing the OP (and most other people) didn't know that either. I found it on the "Lifetime" map upgrade page but people looking for the free upgrade might not see that or think those upgrades were updated on the same schedule.

 

Look, I don't think being three months out of date on maps is a big deal. However, the OP does and he has a valid point about Garmin being bullheaded for what is essentially no reason. I agree with that sentiment. If it matters to the OP it should matter to Garmin. Once again, since he can just go return the unit, Garmin's stance is foolish since it hurts them and their dealer more if he goes that route. Now they have a new customer (unless he returns it and gives up on Garmin) with a bad taste in his mouth and that's a bad way to do business.

 

Bad analogy, OTR. Your implying by the jump in version numbers that 6.0 is a big change over 5.3, and that it was a surprise.

 

Garmin's updates are minor changes and the frequnecy - four times a year - is known. There should be no surprise or angst about taking the free update - or even a paid one - and seeing it become outdated in some time between 1 and 89 days later.

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As requested I will "chime in"

 

My complaint, is simply this: I paid for a product who's only function is to display up-to-date maps in my car. I updated the maps and 2 days later a newer version came out... now some may argue this is not a big deal... BUT I feel that I should be allowed the newest version of the maps... There is NO way Garmin is going to get GPS's on the shelves that are less than 2 days old in updates, they offer the updates to bring the maps up-to-date, they even say I have 60 days to update it... so, why would I purchase a product and purposely NOT update it for 59 days for fear that a new map set will be issued??? I wouldn't! So, if there is a newer upgrade in those 60 days, why can I not download it? I understand and respect the argument that they state 1 upgrade... but it seems (again to me) rather silly, to then place a time limit on it... why not just offer 1 upgrade and no time limit? The upgrades are tied to serial number - so tracking is not a factor...

 

As for the doughnut shop analogy... well to be honest... I do not frequent them, as those who have cached with me can attest to... but I do want to have 2 - 3 year old roads displayed on the mapping device I purchased (again for the sole purpose of showing those same roads in my car...) They are NOT on the current update I have and I was hoping to find them on the .04 update.

 

I am glad to see that this debate is stimulating so much conversation, but would ask that we keep person opinion to just that as well... insulting (or attempting to insinuate that I am am spoiled, gadget collecting whiner, etc are really not pertinent to the issue) If you'd like to discuss sociological issues we can do that in email.

 

I hope this helps to clarify my true feelings - again they reflect only MY opinion...

 

DD

Edited by DyverDown

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Fair enough DyverDown, you feel you have been harmed - somehow - by having maps that are a few months out of date. But I don't think you ever replied to an earlier question, and it's one I've raised more than once:

 

If you had gotten the LATEST update for free -- when the next one comes out 61 or 89 days later, and Garmin says you have to pay if you want it -- would you feel similarly aggrieved?

Edited by lee_rimar

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I joke about gas stations and donut shops because these are likely to come and go. But really important landmarks -- like roads, Tim Hortons, and so on -- usually don't change much from one quarter to the next.

 

 

Actually, Tim Horton's locations around southern Ontario are like mushrooms. There's always a new one (or ten) popping up where you least expect them.

 

But we have POIFriends for managing that data :)

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As requested I will "chime in"

 

My complaint, is simply this: I paid for a product who's only function is to display up-to-date maps in my car.

No, you didn't. You bought a product that will display whatever maps are installed in it. If you want them to always be up-to-date, you need to get a NuMaps subscription. What you have is are the latest maps available at the time you purchased the product, which is all anyone should expect. The mechanism used to make sure you have the latest maps available at the time of purchase is the 1-free upgrade option. It's intent is to make sure you have the most current map at the time of purchase, not to simply give you a free upgrade. That's the point of the 60 day time limit.

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So, if there is a newer upgrade in those 60 days, why can I not download it? I understand and respect the argument that they state 1 upgrade... but it seems (again to me) rather silly, to then place a time limit on it... why not just offer 1 upgrade and no time limit? The upgrades are tied to serial number - so tracking is not a factor...

 

The update you are entitled to is based on the date of first GPS acquisision, not when you register it or when you visit the website for the update. As soon as you turn the unit on, that date is set and cannot be undone.

 

The maps are 2 to 3 years out of date WHEN released. 3 months here or there is not going to affect anything.

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...The maps are 2 to 3 years out of date WHEN released....
An interesting assertion. I know it USED to be true -- but I thought that was the reason Navteq & Garmin came up w/ these more frequent update deals. Is it still true across the board, or are you basing this on a few anecdotal experiences of your own and other folks?

 

Maybe DyverDown or NorthernPenguin could check for the most recently opened (or closed) Tim Horton's on their GPS. Like archeologist dating a site by what artifacts are found in which layers of strata :)

Edited by lee_rimar

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Fair enough DyverDown, you feel you have been harmed - somehow - by having maps that are a few months out of date. But I don't think you ever replied to an earlier question, and it's one I've raised more than once:

 

If you had gotten the LATEST update for free -- when the next one comes out 61 or 89 days later, and Garmin says you have to pay if you want it -- would you feel similarly aggrieved?

And if your answer is YES, don't ever buy a car with a factory installed, OEM, in-dash GPS/NAV system.

The next map/POI DVD for my Jeep will cost me $100. :)

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...The maps are 2 to 3 years out of date WHEN released....
An interesting assertion. I know it USED to be true -- but I thought that was the reason Navteq & Garmin came up w/ these more frequent update deals. Is it still true across the board, or are you basing this on a few anecdotal experiences of your own and other folks?

 

Maybe DyverDown or NorthernPenguin could check for the most recently opened (or closed) Tim Horton's on their GPS. Like archeologist dating a site by what artifacts are found in which layers of strata <_<

 

Well they're missing a few 12 month old expressway extensions around these parts so they're at LEAST 12 months behind in Ontario. And yes, I drive past Tim Horton's that aren't on the map all the time, and half of the Town of Milton is missing too, but the maps are a lot better than they were on my Magellan.

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Fair enough DyverDown, you feel you have been harmed - somehow - by having maps that are a few months out of date. But I don't think you ever replied to an earlier question, and it's one I've raised more than once:

 

If you had gotten the LATEST update for free -- when the next one comes out 61 or 89 days later, and Garmin says you have to pay if you want it -- would you feel similarly aggrieved?

And if your answer is YES, don't ever buy a car with a factory installed, OEM, in-dash GPS/NAV system.

The next map/POI DVD for my Jeep will cost me $100. <_<

$100? That's a great deal. I was just over at NavTeq's site and they are showing U0032-0070-910 @ NAVTEQ Direct Price: $ 199.00

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So, if there is a newer upgrade in those 60 days, why can I not download it? I understand and respect the argument that they state 1 upgrade... but it seems (again to me) rather silly, to then place a time limit on it... why not just offer 1 upgrade and no time limit? The upgrades are tied to serial number - so tracking is not a factor...

 

The update you are entitled to is based on ...

 

Please STOP using this assertion. No one who purchases a GPSr is "ENTITLED" to anything that isn't contained in the manufacturer's packaging. In the spirit of good customer relations, Garmin has seen fit to "GIVE" their customers "1 FREE DOWNLOAD" during the first 60 days after registration, to insure that the newly-purchased unit is up-to-date, but nothing, either morally or ethically, mandates that Garmin must do this! Garmin is in the business to make money; not to give away their intellectual property to everyone who feels Garmin's policies aren't fair.

 

DyverDown, I'm sorry that the timing of your Nuvi update was so bad, but that's what happens in life. We don't always get what we want, but we have to get over it and move on. And after all, we are talking about a car GPSr, and your maps will be, at the most, 90 days out-of date.

Edited by rocketsteve

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Well, there's always Plan B: Use someone else's mapset, like, say OpenStreetMap (hope your area's covered though). You can get ready made maps for Garmin devices over at CloudMade. The bad news? Navteq is gonna have way more, and way more accurate coverage. The good news? That highway near your house is missing? Just add it to the map yourself and wait for next week's refresh.

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Absolutely not... If the next update came outside of the allowable 60 day upgrade I would not have any complaint at all....

 

As requested I will "chime in"

 

My complaint, is simply this: I paid for a product who's only function is to display up-to-date maps in my car. I updated the maps and 2 days later a newer version came out... now some may argue this is not a big deal... BUT I feel that I should be allowed the newest version of the maps... There is NO way Garmin is going to get GPS's on the shelves that are less than 2 days old in updates, they offer the updates to bring the maps up-to-date, they even say I have 60 days to update it... so, why would I purchase a product and purposely NOT update it for 59 days for fear that a new map set will be issued??? I wouldn't! So, if there is a newer upgrade in those 60 days, why can I not download it? I understand and respect the argument that they state 1 upgrade... but it seems (again to me) rather silly, to then place a time limit on it... why not just offer 1 upgrade and no time limit? The upgrades are tied to serial number - so tracking is not a factor...

 

As for the doughnut shop analogy... well to be honest... I do not frequent them, as those who have cached with me can attest to... but I do want to have 2 - 3 year old roads displayed on the mapping device I purchased (again for the sole purpose of showing those same roads in my car...) They are NOT on the current update I have and I was hoping to find them on the .04 update.

 

I am glad to see that this debate is stimulating so much conversation, but would ask that we keep person opinion to just that as well... insulting (or attempting to insinuate that I am am spoiled, gadget collecting whiner, etc are really not pertinent to the issue) If you'd like to discuss sociological issues we can do that in email.

 

I hope this helps to clarify my true feelings - again they reflect only MY opinion...

 

DD

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LOL.. now that is funny!!!

 

Trekking back through the cups of time... as it were...

 

<_<

 

...The maps are 2 to 3 years out of date WHEN released....
An interesting assertion. I know it USED to be true -- but I thought that was the reason Navteq & Garmin came up w/ these more frequent update deals. Is it still true across the board, or are you basing this on a few anecdotal experiences of your own and other folks?

 

Maybe DyverDown or NorthernPenguin could check for the most recently opened (or closed) Tim Horton's on their GPS. Like archeologist dating a site by what artifacts are found in which layers of strata :D

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You still don't get it do you? Garmin isn't offering the free update out of the goodness of their angelic hearts. They're doing it because customers demand it and they want to make their customers happy so they can sell more product. That's the only reason it's offered.

 

Please STOP using this assertion. No one who purchases a GPSr is "ENTITLED" to anything that isn't contained in the manufacturer's packaging. In the spirit of good customer relations, Garmin has seen fit to "GIVE" their customers "1 FREE DOWNLOAD" during the first 60 days after registration, to insure that the newly-purchased unit is up-to-date, but nothing, either morally or ethically, mandates that Garmin must do this! Garmin is in the business to make money; not to give away their intellectual property to everyone who feels Garmin's policies aren't fair.

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You still don't get it do you? Garmin isn't offering the free update out of the goodness of their angelic hearts. They're doing it because customers demand it and they want to make their customers happy so they can sell more product. That's the only reason it's offered.

 

Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up. Where in marketing at Garmin do you work?

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You still don't get it do you? Garmin isn't offering the free update out of the goodness of their angelic hearts. They're doing it because customers demand it and they want to make their customers happy so they can sell more product. That's the only reason it's offered.

 

Please STOP using this assertion. No one who purchases a GPSr is "ENTITLED" to anything that isn't contained in the manufacturer's packaging. In the spirit of good customer relations, Garmin has seen fit to "GIVE" their customers "1 FREE DOWNLOAD" during the first 60 days after registration, to insure that the newly-purchased unit is up-to-date, but nothing, either morally or ethically, mandates that Garmin must do this! Garmin is in the business to make money; not to give away their intellectual property to everyone who feels Garmin's policies aren't fair.

 

Do you have a problem with Garmin wanting to sell more product?

 

Your posts have had a noticeably negative tone in this thread and you've implied that Garmin's policies are wrong, so I'm wondering if you've had some bad history with Garmin.

 

Do you have a problem with "Capitalism"?

Do you believe in the "Free Market System"?

Edited by rocketsteve

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Huh? Why would you think I have any problem with Garmin or with Garmin wanting to sell more products or make money? You seem to be the one who doesn't understand the principals of capitalism and what motivates companies to do the things they do.

 

For the record, I have no beef with Garmin. I've owned plenty of their products in the past and likely will own more in the future. However, I feel they are being shortsighted in this particular case. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose and they're fighting a battle with the customer that they can't win. That's a stupid way to do business.

 

jholly, if you feel my statement is in error that you have a fundamental lack of knowledge about how and why businesses function that I have no time or interest in correcting.

 

I've been a businessman for a long time. I understand how business works, I understand marketing and I certainly understand good customer service. I certainly believe in capitalism and the free market... they've made me a fine living.

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What's more important? Taking care of a customer or making sure you stick to the letter of the contract?

 

I agree. This, in my opinion, should be the core of this discussion.

 

People keep arguing about "rights" and "entitlement" without considering the concept of giving customers the highest level of service possible.

 

Just to reiterate, I don't think it's necessary to "inform" anyone of the update schedule. All Garmin would have to do is give customers a 60 window within which to update. Countless other software applications use a "time window" update paradigm, so it's clearly workable. The customer would be able to update during this period as many times as there were updates available, which by my understanding would likely be either one or two times. Garmin loses NOTHING by doing this since the customer ends up with EXACTLY what they would have ended up with simply by waiting for the end of the 60 day period.

 

Given some of the earlier comments, I think this needs to be restated: Garmin is NOT losing any money on the deal since the update the customer ends up with is not any newer than what they are currently entitled to in the current system. The only differences are that the customer isn't punished for updating "too early," and the customer gets to use the latest maps immediately. The "end result" of giving the customers a flat 60 day window to update is EXACTLY the same as a customer waiting for 60 days before updating.

 

Downloading the latest maps twice instead of once costs Garmin nothing, but the customer absolutely GAINS since they don't have to wait in order to get the newest maps. Depending on how long the unit has been on the shelf, the maps could be several months old, which can make a big difference if you happen to live or work in an area that is being developed. The customer gets immediate use of current maps. so they don't have to use potentially outdated maps for 60 days just to ensure that they get the most value for their purchase..

 

The one situation where Garmin would lose a sale in an "update for 60 days" scenario would be with customers who updated right away, then wanted to update AGAIN 60 days later AND were willing to pay for it even though their GPS was less than 60 days old. Being realistic, how many people would this actually apply to? My guess is that nobody does this -- i.e. Garmin would most likely lose zero sales.

 

I don't see this as being about "rights" or "entitlement" or even "ethics." It's not about whether or not Garmin has contract law on their side. This is about providing top notch customer service, which seems to get lower and lower priority these days. The questions to ask in this situation are: 1) which way would the customer prefer this to work, 2) what would Garmin actually lose under the new system, and 3) what does Garmin potentially GAIN under the new system. The answers to 1 and 2 are already answered. The answer to 3 is "better customer satisfaction."

 

I just don't see a valid argument supporting the current paradigm.

 

Larry

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In my opinion, if their policy keeps a brand new unit from having the latest maps, you shouldn't feel at all bad about returning it so you can have new maps. If they can stick to the letter of their update policy, you can stick to the letter of the retailers return policy, right.

 

I personally would go with a TomTom though.

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In my opinion, if their policy keeps a brand new unit from having the latest maps, you shouldn't feel at all bad about returning it so you can have new maps. If they can stick to the letter of their update policy, you can stick to the letter of the retailers return policy, right.

 

I personally would go with a TomTom though.

Except it doesn't do that. The policy does give you the latest maps available at the time you bought the unit. You don't have a right to expect anything more than that.

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