Cacher did not log a DNF

January 20, 2010

I was contacted by a cacher looking for my cache. He asked for a hint because he "hates to log DNFs." He left the area after searching for 45 minutes but did not log a DNF.

My question is....why do people cheat the system because they have a DNF. This guys profile has 0 DNFs but 111 finds. We all know that a person is going to have some DNFs, so why try to look better than you really are?

I'll never understand some people. They must win at all costs. Isn't it more important to play the game with integrity?

9.3k · January 20, 2010

I'm curious as to how you were able to discern that he had never logged a DNF?

I wasn't aware that these were visible to other players. :lol:

To get back to your topic: While logging DNFs is a great idea, for so many reasons, not doing so hardly qualifies as cheating.

While I can't understand the logic behind not logging DNFs, I can't get worked up over it either.

Perhaps you could tell them that you'll happily provide a hint once they post a DNF?

Once they do so, maybe they'll realize that posting DNFs is not the digital equivalent of a thumb/forefinger "L" on his forehead? :lol:

18.9k · January 20, 2010

Some folks just won't log DNFs as they somehow got the idea that it equates to some kind of Geocaching demerit.

January 20, 2010

I happily log DNF's - they not only let CO's know how hard their cache is and whether there might be an issue with the cache, but they make for great reading!

9.3k · January 20, 2010

This guys profile has 0 DNFs but 111 finds.

I just checked. Your publicly viewable profile also shows 0 DNFs. :lol:

1.9k · January 20, 2010

I'm curious as to how you were able to discern that he had never logged a DNF?

I wasn't aware that these were visible to other players.

They aren't. The only way I know of to make them visible, is to post a public bookmark of DNF'ed caches.

January 20, 2010

This guys profile has 0 DNFs but 111 finds.

I just checked. Your publicly viewable profile also shows 0 DNFs.

Where do you see that?

8.6k · January 20, 2010

The OP probably wants verification that the cacher actually looked for the cache before asking for additional hints. Not totally unreasonable.

He went through the trouble of emailing the CO, but couldn't log a DNF. Hmmmmmm

I probably wouldn't go so far as to conclude the cacher was "cheating". And I have yet to find out just what the winning score would be, anyway. :lol:

So, I guess it drops back into the lap of the OP, his/her choice -- be hardline, a softy, or something-in-da-middle. :lol:

8k · January 20, 2010

Not only is it OK for a cacher to not log a DNF, it is OK for a cacher to not log a Found It. In spite of what Geocaching.com may want you to do ("Log your experience at www.geocaching.com"), there is no way for them to enforce this rule. Anyone who wants to can participate in Geocaching and never log a thing online.

That said, if someone asks you as a cache owner for a hint you can reply that you won't give a hint until that person logs a DNF on your cache. This will appear to some people as you being a control freak who is forcing someone to do something they are not required to do normally. I wouldn't call this an Additional Logging Requirement (ALR) - but is comes close to the reason that ALRs are no longer allowed. You can decide if you want to require the person to log a DNF to get a hint or not. Be prepared for someone else to find fault which ever way you decide.

2.2k · January 20, 2010

I tend to log my DNFs. I wish others did the same.

I personally don't see the failure to log a DNF as "cheating the system", however.

9.3k · January 20, 2010

Where do you see that?

Their profile. Just like yours. It shows 0 DNFs.

The key word here is "Shows".

The OP was expressing some discord because the person asking for hints showed 0 DNFs on their profile page.

I was simply pointing out that everybody's profile page "shows" 0 DNFs.

19k · January 20, 2010

This guys profile has 0 DNFs but 111 finds.

I just checked. Your publicly viewable profile also shows 0 DNFs.

Would you mind checking mine, too? Thanks.

19k · January 20, 2010

In the few situations that I've run into that are like your experience, I have done just what Toz suggested... I reply that I would be glad to help them out once they log a DNF. I also explain why I feel that, as a cache owner and as a cacher, it is important that we all long our DNFs.

January 20, 2010

If I spend time searching I'll log a DNF. I try to include some interesting or amusing thing to make it worth reading, but the main reason is to give the CO a heads up that there might be a problem with their cache.

Occasionally I don't log a DNF however. If I get to the cache site and my gps is having a bad day, I usually move on after a cursory search and don't log anything. Who wants to read that I couldn't find the cache because my gps was pointing all over?

January 20, 2010

If I do not find a cache I tend to email the owner explaining I could not find the cache and asking for an extra hint. I prefer to do that it can be very annoying as a cache owner to have a DNF logged when you know the cache is there . I find the owners are usually happy to email an extra hint which enables me to find the cache. I found that more satisfactory than logging a DNF and it helps me find the cache.

9.3k · January 20, 2010

Would you mind checking mine, too? Thanks.

No problem! Stand by... :lol:

Done!

The pooch who has a passing acquaintance to Chad shows 0 DNFs in his/her profile. :lol:

January 20, 2010

I will post a DNF if I make a decent attempt at a cache. If I just quickly look without much effort I will not.

As a cache owner I like seeing DNFs as I like to see people looking as I have a few "clever" hides.

January 20, 2010

since no one else has found the cach yet...

I wouldnt give any more hints

wait until after there is a ftf

or several other people that log dnf

5.8k · January 20, 2010

This guys profile has 0 DNFs but 111 finds.

I just checked. Your publicly viewable profile also shows 0 DNFs.

Where do you see that?

Yeah, That's the point.

January 20, 2010

I log my DNF's but not usually on the first go round. Sometimes I will venture back that way and try again. If after the second try I still can't find the cache I will log it DNF. Once when I really was stumped I reached out to my local group lifeline. In the email he left me he left a very large space so that I had the choice whether I wanted the hint or not.

It's not about the numbers it's about the hunt. And I enjoy every aspect of it. The numbers just keep track of how much excersize I'm getting and how much time I'm spending with my family. Something that was LONG overdue!

I got off topic didn't I?

Sorry

3.5k · January 20, 2010

Perhaps you could tell them that you'll happily provide a hint once they post a DNF?

That's my general rule as a cache owner. I ask "where's the DNF? how do I know you were even looking?"

January 20, 2010

it can be very annoying as a cache owner to have a DNF logged when you know the cache is there .

Say...whaaat? LOL. DNF doesn't mean "it's not there"; it means "i didn't find it". People search for my cache. Some find it; some don't. I don't find it annoying when they honestly report back their experiences.

8k · January 20, 2010

This guys profile has 0 DNFs but 111 finds.

I just checked. Your publicly viewable profile also shows 0 DNFs.

Where do you see that?

Yeah, That's the point.

I've considered modifying the FindStats GSAK macro (or suggesting a modification) to put some DNF statistics (assuming you have all your DNF logs in GSAK). These could include

Number of DNF logs
Number of individual caches I've DNF
Percentage of caches I DNF that I later found
Cache that I DNF the most times
Geocaching percentages (#finds/#searches) where a search is any find or DNF
Compute number of caching days base on days I searched whether or not I found anything

9.3k · January 20, 2010

I've considered modifying the FindStats GSAK macro...

When I was browsing Chad's buddy's profile, I was amazed at the sheer volume of data presented through their use of FindStats.

It kinda surprised me to not see DNFs included, as I feel they are in integral part of how I play this game.

I would think that any statistic compiling software would include all possible results, not just "Found It" logs.

19k · January 20, 2010

Would you mind checking mine, too? Thanks.

No problem! Stand by...

Done!

The pooch who has a passing acquaintance to Chad shows 0 DNFs in his/her profile.

Whew! Thanks much!! Let me know if you ever want me to return the favor.

1.1k · January 20, 2010

I will post a DNF if I make a decent attempt at a cache. If I just quickly look without much effort I will not.

As a cache owner I like seeing DNFs as I like to see people looking as I have a few "clever" hides.

Ditto here. I looked for one cache three times, I only logged the first DNF, to many DNFs on a cache page will keep some people from looking for it as they think it is missing , no sense cluttering up a cache page with a lot of DNFs. If I look and think it might be missing I'll log DNF.

19k · January 20, 2010

I log my DNF's but not usually on the first go round. Sometimes I will venture back that way and try again.

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!! :lol:

Seriously, though... please don't do that. Log a DNF when you DNF. DNFs are not just for your benefit. They are for the cache owner, and for other cachers.

For me, it's not about the numbers it's about the hunt.

I suspect that (bolded) is what you meant to say, right?

19k · January 20, 2010

This guys profile has 0 DNFs but 111 finds.

I just checked. Your publicly viewable profile also shows 0 DNFs.

Where do you see that?

Yeah, That's the point.

I've considered modifying the FindStats GSAK macro (or suggesting a modification) to put some DNF statistics (assuming you have all your DNF logs in GSAK). These could include

Number of DNF logs

Number of individual caches I've DNF

Percentage of caches I DNF that I later found

Cache that I DNF the most times

Geocaching percentages (#finds/#searches) where a search is any find or DNF

Compute number of caching days base on days I searched whether or not I found anything

7. Caches that I did not find but also did not log a DNF on

January 20, 2010

I log my DNF's but not usually on the first go round. Sometimes I will venture back that way and try again.

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!

Seriously, though... please don't do that. Log a DNF when you DNF. DNFs are not just for your benefit. They are for the cache owner, and for other cachers.

For me, it's not about the numbers it's about the hunt.

I suspect that (bolded) is what you meant to say, right?

I see your point Chad. I'll make sure to log my DNF's on the first go round.

For me...yeah. I love to go geocaching with my kids. I love getting out in the Montana air even in the winter. I finally found a "sport" that we can do as a family and doesn't leave anyone out.

7.4k · January 20, 2010

Not wanting to log DNFs is kind of lame, but if he contacted you to mention it, then not logging the DNF isn't that big a deal. It's cachers who say nothing at all, to anyone, who cause trouble by not alerting cache owners and fellow cachers to potential problems.

4.8k · January 20, 2010

This guys profile has 0 DNFs but 111 finds.

I just checked. Your publicly viewable profile also shows 0 DNFs.

Would you mind checking mine, too? Thanks.

Using the backdoor method, you have 127 DNFs

January 20, 2010

I was contacted by a cacher looking for my cache. He asked for a hint because he "hates to log DNFs." He left the area after searching for 45 minutes but did not log a DNF.

My question is....why do people cheat the system because they have a DNF. This guys profile has 0 DNFs but 111 finds. We all know that a person is going to have some DNFs, so why try to look better than you really are?

I'll never understand some people. They must win at all costs. Isn't it more important to play the game with integrity?

Bottom lines is that you don't have to give him an extra hint if you don't wish to do so. In the same situation, I wouldn't unless someone had already found the cache. Then again, that's totally up to you. I don't think he's cheating ... he just plays the game different.

19k · January 20, 2010

This guys profile has 0 DNFs but 111 finds.

I just checked. Your publicly viewable profile also shows 0 DNFs.

Would you mind checking mine, too? Thanks.

Using the backdoor method, you have 127 DNFs

You're way too kind!

(did I really say that?!?)

4.8k · January 20, 2010

Using the backdoor method, you have 127 DNFs
You're way too kind!

(did I really say that?!?)

I didn't want to say the ACTUAL number. But you did have 127 of them.

Edited January 20, 2010 by bittsen

3.6k · January 21, 2010

They aren't. The only way I know of to make them visible, is to post a public bookmark of DNF'ed caches.

Or look at every cache placed and see if said person posted a DNF to any of them.

10.1k · January 21, 2010

DNFs are a demerit to the cache! Lots of people bypass looking for a cache because the family of five ran for the rest room instead, and logged five DNFs! :smile:

There is certaily no requirement to log DNFs, and there is nothing to stop someone from logging a DNF on a cache s/he never looked for, just to get a hint from the CO.

And it is certainly not an ALR! Unless you require a DNF before permitting a Found It.

But, if you want an additional hint from me, log the DNF, whether you searched for the cache or not.

January 21, 2010

OK I get it - you can't see any DNFs but that doesn't mean that the person hasn't actually posted any DNFs - I myself have posted about 7 DNFs - I think one of them I still haven't found - I think the cache has been muggled.

January 21, 2010

Sorry to venture my opinion, I'm just a beginner. All I'd like to say is that it would be great if CO's would try to help/contact/give a hint to people logging DNFs. I've seen in this thread a few CO's saying they have helped people logging DNFs but in reality my experience is different.

I logged a few DNFs until now and with one exception (when the CO promptly let me know he will check the cache and next day he actually archived it) nobody else ever said anything. It would help everyone especially newbies if the CO would try to help in some way.

Just my 2c

Edited January 21, 2010 by pezeke13

5.6k · January 21, 2010

Sorry to venture my opinion, I'm just a beginner. All I'd like to say is that it would be great if CO's would try to help/contact/give a hint to people logging DNFs. I've seen in this thread a few CO's saying they have helped people logging DNFs but in reality my experience is different.

I logged a few DNFs until now and with one exception (when the CO promptly let me know he will check the cache and next day he actually archived it) nobody else ever said anything. It would help everyone especially newbies if the CO would try to help in some way.

Just my 2c

I can see where it might be nice for some people, but others may not want help until they ask for it (me, for example). And as a cache owner, that means I have to investigate every person who logs a DNF on one of my caches, and then determine if they are enough of a newbie (what's the cut off date/find count to graduate from newbie status?) to be given a hint.

Here's a penny change

2k · January 21, 2010

Please please please please ALWAYS log your DNF's. Logging a DNF is a very important and productive tool that benefits cache owners and other cache seekers. Unfortunately, logging a DNF currently carries very negative connotations, such as failure. This is highly unfortunate and the geocaching community pays the price because of it.

Go here for more info:

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=1610203

6.7k · January 21, 2010

Sorry to venture my opinion, I'm just a beginner. All I'd like to say is that it would be great if CO's would try to help/contact/give a hint to people logging DNFs. I've seen in this thread a few CO's saying they have helped people logging DNFs but in reality my experience is different.

I logged a few DNFs until now and with one exception (when the CO promptly let me know he will check the cache and next day he actually archived it) nobody else ever said anything. It would help everyone especially newbies if the CO would try to help in some way.

Just my 2c

I can see where it might be nice for some people, but others may not want help until they ask for it (me, for example). And as a cache owner, that means I have to investigate every person who logs a DNF on one of my caches, and then determine if they are enough of a newbie (what's the cut off date/find count to graduate from newbie status?) to be given a hint.

Here's a penny change

I'll toss in another two cents. Now you've made a profit. Have you asked one of those COs for a hint? DNF stands for Did Not Find. Not Can't find. Not cache is missing. I don't automatically give a hint or pointer to a cacher who logs a DNF. I don't think I ever turned one down when they asked though.

January 21, 2010

I can see where it might be nice for some people, but others may not want help until they ask for it (me, for example). And as a cache owner, that means I have to investigate every person who logs a DNF on one of my caches, and then determine if they are enough of a newbie (what's the cut off date/find count to graduate from newbie status?) to be given a hint.

Yeah, I guess you're right, it's hard to know who wants help and who doesn't. Personally I am like you, I ask for help if I need it. But other people don't, they just give up - I know a couple like that.

On the other hand the log can tell a lot. If someone logs a DNF like "didn't find, I'll come back someday" I guess they don't expect any help. But if the DNF log is like "tried 3 times, no luck, I may be missing something, is it really under all those rocks?" I think the CO could offer a little hint.

My last penny left

January 21, 2010

I'll toss in another two cents. Now you've made a profit. Have you asked one of those COs for a hint? DNF stands for Did Not Find. Not Can't find. Not cache is missing. I don't automatically give a hint or pointer to a cacher who logs a DNF. I don't think I ever turned one down when they asked though.

This is what I usually do: log the DNF and ask for a hint. A couple times I admit asked for a hint and then I logged the DNF if I couldn't find it. But from my experience I can say that some COs are not happy to be bothered. Some don't even answer.

Sometimes I don't even think there is a point in asking. I logged a DNF recently on a cache that hasn't been found since July of last year and has 6 DNFs logged since then. If the owner didn't check on the cache in all this time, I assume he is busy - I won't bother him with my question in this case.

Cool idea for a trackable and awesome notes, simpjkee...

4.8k · January 21, 2010

I logged a DNF on a cache and then asked the CO for a little help. His reply was "All you need to know is on the cache page". I thought to myself, "Thanks for nothin" and decided I would ignore that cache.

The cache owner didn't even hint that the cache might be gone, nor that I was missing something, or anything.

GZ is wide open with ONE possible place for it. Of course it's supposed to be a challenging hide, but, still...

I want mine to be found. Any DNF gets an automatic offer for an extra hint.

9.3k · January 21, 2010

Unfortunately, logging a DNF currently carries very negative connotations, such as failure.

Only for a fraction of players. The vast majority recognize that it is not a self proclaimed demerit.

January 21, 2010

My children spend a lot of time tattling on each for doing things like cheating at Solitaire, too.

20.7k · January 21, 2010

My children spend a lot of time tattling on each for doing things like cheating at Solitaire, too.

Agreed.

I log most of my DNFs. I'm sure that some don't get logged out of pure laziness. While having people log DNFs is somewhat helpful to me in certain circumstances, I could really care less if individual cachers choose to log their DNFs, or not. I certainly do not care if DNF means something different to them than it does to me.

5.7k · January 21, 2010

Intentionally not logging a dnf, is not ok. It is unhelpful to both the CO and your fellow cache hunters.

20.7k · January 21, 2010

Intentionally not logging a dnf, is not ok. It is unhelpful to both the CO and your fellow cache hunters.

In geocaching as in life, 'helpful' is a bonus, not a requirement.

2.1k · January 21, 2010

it can be very annoying as a cache owner to have a DNF logged when you know the cache is there .

Why would you find that annoying? "DNF" means "I didn't find it." It doesn't mean "It's gone, go check on it."

Cacher did not log a DNF

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