Language issue

[cezanne]

This new Earth cache is an example for an Earth cache where the English version is very bad (most probably the result of an automatic translation) and even some of the questions (e.g. the fourth) are incomprehensible

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ae-007cada21c5e

 

Another example is this cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...67-25ab4a4dc8ea

Take for example the first logging question: who would guess that the meaning of

"What is the standing of the two birds that you read in the National Park "Welcome"?"

should be

"There are two birds welcoming you in the national park. What's the name of the standing bird?

 

As I am mentioned earlier in another topic I am concerned that the introduction of a separate reviewer for the German speaking countries will lead to an increase of the number of Earth caches with such a miserable English version.

 

I would appreciate it if for the review of Earth caches the English version is taken into account. Additional language version can be provided, but the English version needs to be understandable. Since the reviewers will not have the time to read more than one version, it should be the English one.

 

Cezanne

Edited January 18, 2010 by cezanne

[+narcissa]

This new Earth cache is an example for an Earth cache where the English version is very bad (most probably the result of an automatic translation) and even some of the questions (e.g. the fourth) are incomprehensible

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ae-007cada21c5e

 

Another example is this cache

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...67-25ab4a4dc8ea

Take for example the first logging question: who would guess that the meaning of

"What is the standing of the two birds that you read in the National Park "Welcome"?"

should be

"There are two birds welcoming you in the national park. What's the name of the standing bird?

 

As I am mentioned earlier in another topic I am concerned that the introduction of a separate reviewer for the German speaking countries will lead to an increase of the number of Earth caches with such a miserable English version.

 

I would appreciate it if for the review of Earth caches the English version is taken into account. Additional language version can be provided, but the English version needs to be understandable. Since the reviewers will not have the time to read more than one version, it should be the English one.

 

Cezanne

 

Either the guidelines should be changed so that Earthcaches are to be published in an official language of the jurisdiction they are in, or they should be published based on the English version.

[cezanne]

I recently had a look at further new Earth caches from Germany. The result is very depressing. In more than 50% of the cases I looked at the formulation of the logging tasks in the English version is done in a way that it is not possible to guess what the creator of the Earth cache asks for. (It is not even possible for me although German is my native language and so I am better off in guessing what some strange translations from German into English could possibly mean than cachers with no knowledge of German.)

 

It is quite apparent that the current review process of Earth caches in German speaking countries mainly relies on the German version if one is available (in particular as the logging questions are regarded). I even can understand that this is done in this way as the German version will be easier and faster to read for geoawareDE who is overloaded with review work from my point of view.

 

I do not think that the situation will change considerably (of course, there will be a time when the first phase of enthusiastic use of the new system will calm down a bit, but I think that there still will be a high rate of submitted new Earth caches). I believe that the improved accessability of the Earth cache submission form (via the gc.com site which is easier accessible for cachers with a bad command of English than the old submission process) and the fact that the creators of Earth caches in German speaking countries now receive feedback with respect to their submissions in German, will lead to a considerable increase in Earth caches which cannot be visited successfully on basis of the English version.

 

Please note that my intent is neither to criticize the work of geoawareDE (the reviewer in charge of the Earth cache submissions in Austria, Germany and Switzerland) nor to criticize the new submission system for Earth caches. I admire the volunteer work of geoawareDE and I think that the new submission system is a step forward for all involved sides (GSA, geoaware, Groundspeak, cachers). Note also that I am not talking about single cases where a description with questions which are not understandable slipped through. This happens for a large number of descriptions.

 

I think that by bringing up this issue I am raising a valid concern concerning the quality of Earth caches and their accessibility to an international audience - not just to German speaking cachers. If someone wants to publish Earth caches which are only accessible to cachers who understand German, they should create a new platform for such caches in Germany. I am aware of the enormous popularity of Earth caches in Germany, but that should not mean that Earth caches should not be subject to the same rules in German speaking countries than everywhere else. I really would appreciate to receive a response by geoaware on that topic. If for whatever reason, he ignores to reply here, I will respect this decision as well and do hope that my comments will at least be read and maybe taken into account in some internal discussion process.

 

I am aware of the fact that not everyone is able to write up an Earth cache description in English.

Those who are not, need to ask for help. This also holds true for cachers with other native languages than English and German. I do not think that it is a good idea to have a separate system not following the same rules just for German speaking countries. (Apart from the language issue, I also came across new Earth caches which require a mandatory photograph where the cacher is recognizable, and many Earth caches with questions which all can be answered by using the Internet.)

 

I am not sure whether the GSA has been prepared to the effect that moving the submission process of Earth caches to the gc.com would enormously increase the rate of submitted Earth caches in some countries. I like Earth caches, but I feel that not every single spot on earth where one might construct some geological background should be turned into an Earth cache.

 

In previous times I had the feeling that the review process for Earth caches has been stricter than it appears to be at the moment. That's of course just a personal feeling. I might be wrong, and I am not complaining about any current reviewer, but just reporting how I perceive the current situation.

 

Cezanne

Edited January 19, 2010 by cezanne

[+DerkleineHasi]

I guess it's not approved that the review process is based on the german version only.

 

The cache:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...=y&decrypt=

was recently published with english description only, the german description was added later. Well, the english description seems okay to me in this case, but this is an example where review was not based on the non-english version. (Oooops, doubled negation, should mean review was made on the english description).

 

As discussed earlier anywhere else I share your concerns of non-understandable translations and I have my own experiences in regard to this issue that are similar to yours.

 

Frank

[+Cav Scout]

Why not write up and submit a earthcache and show the world what "right" looks like. You seem to be the subject matter expert. Show us how its done .

 

I recently had a look at further new Earth caches from Germany. The result is very depressing.

 

Please note that my intent is neither to criticize the work of geoawareDE (the reviewer in charge of the Earth cache submissions in Austria, Germany and Switzerland) nor to criticize the new submission system for Earth caches.

 

I really would appreciate to receive a response by geoaware on that topic. If for whatever reason, he ignores to reply here, I will respect this decision as well and do hope that my comments will at least be read and maybe taken into account in some internal discussion process.

 

I am aware of the fact that not everyone is able to write up an Earth cache description in English.

Those who are not, need to ask for help.

 

I like Earth caches, but I feel that not every single spot on earth where one might construct some geological background should be turned into an Earth cache.

 

In previous times I had the feeling that the review process for Earth caches has been stricter than it appears to be at the moment. That's of course just a personal feeling. I might be wrong, and I am not complaining about any current reviewer, but just reporting how I perceive the current situation.

 

Cezanne

[cezanne]

Why not write up and submit a earthcache and show the world what "right" looks like. You seem to be the subject matter expert. Show us how its done .

 

It appears to me that you did not get my point at all. I did not refer to the contents of Earth cache descriptions, but to the fact that in many cases of recently published Earth caches in Germany the English version is incomprehensible. The German version looks ok in the cases I looked at (of course, some of the Earth caches deal with more fascinating locations that others, but that's the case all over the world and is not related to the language issue) .

 

By the way, I am neither a geologist nor is English my native language. I am making a lot of mistakes and I do not regard my English is good (though it is still better than my knowledge about geology). For me English is just a means of communication and not an object of beauty. As a consequence thereof, it took me quite some time to produce English translations of some Earth cache texts I have produced for other cachers. I had to look up many technical terms and invested quite some spare time. I also know from fellow cachers that it was also not easy for them to come up with reasonable English versions. That's also one of the reasons why I feel that it is quite unfair that automatic translations that are not useful at all and which can be produced within a few seconds by everyone by himself are apparently accepted now in the German-speaking area. So those who invest their time, effort and energy to provide an internationally understandable Earth cache page are the silly ones. Whoever submits Earth caches with reasonable English descriptions (whether it is me or someone else - e.g. all 3 Earthcaches that showed up in my province, Styria, do have excellent English descriptions), will not change this situation. So your request is not related to my concern, and does neither contribute to keeping up fairness (not offering some special treatment to some cachers from Germany - something some of them ask for repeatedly) nor to ensuring that Earth caches stay open to an international audience and not just to the local community.

 

Maybe you will get a better understanding of what I am trying to talk about if you look at the following example of logging requirements:

 

Locally is no information board!

 

Make a recognizable picture of you and your GPS device at the specified coordinates.

 

What is the height shows your GPS at the specified coordinates?

 

What are the visible columns of basalt?

 

Give a Nebenvulkan the Vogelsberg, except the women's mountain.

 

Logs without pictures upload, or without the answers

were sent to my email will be deleted!

 

There must be equal to being logged, when problems do I sign up already.

 

Would you please be so kind and explain me for example what you are asked for in the second and third question? (For the second question it will be impossible for you with using the English version, in the case of the third one, it will require a big deal of guess work.) The challenge is also open for everyone else (except those who understand German and are able to look up the German version.) Note that this is not a rare example - similar problems occur for a considerable fraction of the Earth cache descriptions where the main version is the German one.

 

Moreover, note that a photo is required where the cachers are recognizable which is not mandatory - something which geoaware claimed is not possible within the new guidelines.

 

Cezanne

Edited January 21, 2010 by cezanne

[+geoaware]

Thank you Cezanne for your concern and comments on this issue. The whole EarthCache review team are looking into this.

 

However, restating your case over and over again in the forums - in multiple threads - will not resolve or speed up our process.

 

Thanks.

[+Touchstone]

I can certainly appreciate your pain, but perhaps this is something that goes beyond the authority or ability of the Earthcache Reviewing Team. Perhaps a helpful email to the EC Owner with some firm but gentle guidance would be in order?

 

As far as:

 

Moreover, note that a photo is required where the cachers are recognizable which is not mandatory - something which geoaware claimed is not possible within the new guidelines.

 

I would give the benefit of the doubt, email my answers along with a helpful link to the appropriate Forum Thread with geoaware's guidance on this issue. If the EC Owner still persisted on enforcing the photo requirement, I would merely post a Needs Archived Note to alert one of the Reviewers that the Listing is not in compliance with the spirit of the Guidelines.

[cezanne]

Thank you Cezanne for your concern and comments on this issue. The whole EarthCache review team are looking into this.

 

However, restating your case over and over again in the forums - in multiple threads - will not resolve or speed up our process.

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply and in particular for taking a look into the matter - regardless of what will be the outcome and how long it will take. It is not a matter of days.

 

From now on I will not comment any further on the topic. I would have stopped much earlier if I had got any sort of reply telling me that what I wrote has been taken notice of by the Earth cache team or if I had any received any suggestion in which other way I should establish contact to voice my concern. I had just continued to post on the language issue because the major feedback I got consisted in accusing me of wrong things and I felt the need to defend myself and to explain that my concern is not a complaint (about whoever). I am sorry for any inconveniences caused by that. Thank you for all your Earth cache related work.

 

Cezanne

[+Pete39]

The debate here is about bad translations of Earthcache descriptions. What is your opinion in the following case? GC1J9A4 .

[+t4e]

The debate here is about bad translations of Earthcache descriptions. What is your opinion in the following case? GC1J9A4 .

 

has the english description been a requirement all the time, or something introduced recently?

 

the one you pointing to its been around since 2008

[+narcissa]

The debate here is about bad translations of Earthcache descriptions. What is your opinion in the following case? GC1J9A4 .

 

has the english description been a requirement all the time, or something introduced recently?

 

the one you pointing to its been around since 2008

 

The requirement that Earthcache pages be written in English existed before then.

[+geoaware]

It has ALWAYS been a requirement that EarthCaches be in English as the reviewers in the past did not speak other languages. It was assumed that once the text was approved, the EarthCache would also be put in the native language of the country in which it was located. Asking for the text in English was not a requirement so English speaking people could visit the EarthCache, however this ended up being a secondary benefit.

 

With more than one reviewer currently working on reviewing EarthCaches in Germany (for example) the requirement remains the same as stated in the guidelines :

 

"All notes can be submitted in the local language but must also be in English"

 

Not doing so will only result in reviewers asking for you to provide the text in English, slowing the process down for your EarthCache submission to be reviewed. As we are working hard to keep the review time short, helping us out by following the guidelines would be a HUGE help.

 

Thanks

[cezanne]

It has ALWAYS been a requirement that EarthCaches be in English as the reviewers in the past did not speak other languages.

 

I know that the guidelines have always asked for an English description. Your reply does not explain, however, how it could have happened that there exists an Earth cache from 2008 with a text which is only available in Norwegian. Someone must have reviewed the cache. Is there any chance to urge the creator(s) of the Earth cache to come up with an English version? In the current situation you cannot even check whether the cache fulfills the current guidelines.

 

Cezanne

[+camino8]

By Abacho translated

 

Hello,

 

as a 71 year-old who has never learned a foreign language, I completely disagree with the opinion of cezanne what languages concerns. Here English. Who by chance, younger, and was fortunate enough to speak the English language for our hobby can count themselves lucky.

 

But let us only once imagine, that our platform would be Japanese, would cezanne and all English speaking, accept it without a word of protest and also always do their Listing into Japanese?

 

Microsoft is cleverer there!

 

My opinion is that we can expect as a premium member with our contribution to work in our hobby in our native language. From the practice I just see no reason at all to attach an English version on the EC, At Tradis, Multis, etc. we do not do it either.

 

At all my ECs I only one can remember to a single English log, what's the point? The English listing is totally unnecessary.

 

There are two more important points that should be preserved.

 

1.

The photographic evidence must be preserved. Regard! Where it is required. It cannot be that it is a voluntary part.

 

2.

The approval of the land owner must be on hand. The consent must be by the reviewer actually reviewed.

 

camino8

[+geoaware]

It has ALWAYS been a requirement that EarthCaches be in English as the reviewers in the past did not speak other languages.

 

I know that the guidelines have always asked for an English description. Your reply does not explain, however, how it could have happened that there exists an Earth cache from 2008 with a text which is only available in Norwegian. Someone must have reviewed the cache. Is there any chance to urge the creator(s) of the Earth cache to come up with an English version? In the current situation you cannot even check whether the cache fulfills the current guidelines.

 

Cezanne

 

Once the EarthCache is reviewed, there is no obligation for the text to be kept in any language other than the native language of the location.

[cezanne]

Once the EarthCache is reviewed, there is no obligation for the text to be kept in any language other than the native language of the location.

 

I'm sorry, but I do not believe that such an obligation exists. There exists no guideline whatsoever that forces a cacher to use the local language. This is true for physical caches and it is true for Earth caches as well.

 

Moreover, I feel that it is not the best idea to do not care about the permanent existence of an English description as this way it becomes quite easy to get Earth caches approved that do not follow the guidelines. Simply submit a fake English version and then come up with something completely different in the local language version. (I am not claiming that this is the case in the Norwegian cache mentioned above - it is just a general comment.)

 

Cezanne

[+Thoto]

Once the EarthCache is reviewed, there is no obligation for the text to be kept in any language other than the native language of the location.

Interesting clarification. I did not know that . Thanks!

[cezanne]

Once the EarthCache is reviewed, there is no obligation for the text to be kept in any language other than the native language of the location.

Interesting clarification. I did not know that . Thanks!

 

The last part of geoaware's statement is, however, definitely wrong and will never be executed that way on gc.com.

 

Next time I will submit an Earthcache in Austria with an English version and will later on replace the English version for example by a Slovenian or an Italian version just for the fun of it (NB: I'm supporting English versions). If the requirement for an English version after the review process gets dropped, I am perfectly free to do so which would not make much sense however.

 

Cezanne

[+cincol]

I am now totally confused as to how my next EarthCache should be written.

 

I submit it in English for approval and then translate it into Arabic. I can then change whatever I wish in the logging requirements as there are very few cachers [and even less reviewers / moderators] who can read Arabic and will not worry about the "new" content. Does not make any sense whatsoever, but OTOH I might just be having a blonde moment though. Perhaps the sun has got to me after spending too much time in the desert looking for suitable EarthCache sites! ::

Edited March 17, 2010 by cincol

[+terratin]

I submit it in English for approval and then translate it into Arabic.

It appears to me you indeed are slightly confused. Write the EC in english for approval and then change the language to Herero....

 

Seriously though, it boils down to the single 'problem' of a lack of reviewers who -other than english and now german- are proficient in or native speakers of other languages.

 

As it stands now, the english guideline imo is just there because earthcaches historically have been initiated and reviewed by the USGS.

 

Geocaching is a global game (to state the obvious!), with loads of cache placed all around the world, using descriptions only in the local language. For most caches this is not a problem, as with the coords you could (try to) find them anyway and you are at most missing out on some interesting stuff pointed out in the description. However, when it comes to Mysteries, it's already a different story: For example in Copenhagen, Denmark (where we're moving soon) there are a lot of Mystery caches, most of them only in danish. Some of those i did manage to solve using online translators and common sense. Others i simply don't get at all, which i therefore will not 'find'. So be it.

 

As for earthcaches: I don't see why these should be handled -language wise- differently than other types of caches (apart from a lack of reviewers). Actually, i think the english language requirement at the moment is holding back the publication of earthcaches because potential CO's only speak the local (not english) language.

 

Going back to the initial post by cezanne: I do wholeheartidly agree with the poor english translations being a bad development. But I'd suggest to omit english translations completely; I think i would understand the point of the cache and the geological lessons to be learned much better if i take the effort of translating the cache myself. And if it turns out i am not able to answer the EC questions correctly because i cannot manage to understand the language used (either as is or through translators), well, then it's a DNF and still a visit to a nice/interesting place.

 

If a CO decides to put a (english) translation with his cache, then i think this translation should be reviewed seperately by the reviewer for that langauge, thus approval needed for each langauge used.

 

Given the new german EC reviewer i do have hopes this is an 'experiment' and we will see more other-than-english reviewers soon and therefore more other-than-english earthcaches. Give the large number of non-english-speaking cachers, finding EC reviewers for at least the big cache languages (spanish, french, protugese, maybe also dutch, norwegian, danish, swedish etc) should not be very difficult (i hope!).

 

Mr. Terratin

[cezanne]

I submit it in English for approval and then translate it into Arabic.

It appears to me you indeed are slightly confused. Write the EC in english for approval and then change the language to Herero....

 

The dangerous aspect with this type of approach is that it opens the door for Earthcaches which do not follow the guidelines. Submit an acceptable English version and then change it to something which will have negative effects on the image of Earthcaches (for example, require leaving the trails in a nature protection area).

 

For most caches this is not a problem, as with the coords you could (try to) find them anyway and you are at most missing out on some interesting stuff pointed out in the description.

 

I do not agree at all. First, there are countries where 50% of the caches are multi caches or mystery caches.

Second, for many traditional caches it is very important to read the description. It is quite unfortunate that more and more cachers feel that it suffices to go to the coordinates and switch off their brain and just care about finding the cache. I am not concerned about cachers who miss interesting background material about a cache location (though for myself this is more important than finding a container and thus an indispensable part of my own caching experience), but I am concerned about those who visit a cache without being informed about opening times, recommended times to visit the cache, rules to be taken care of at the location (e.g. sticking to trails etc). The key issue is not about finding a cache, it is about behaving in a proper and acceptable way.

 

 

As for earthcaches: I don't see why these should be handled -language wise- differently than other types of caches (apart from a lack of reviewers). Actually, i think the english language requirement at the moment is holding back the publication of earthcaches because potential CO's only speak the local (not english) language.

 

I do not agree at all. I see various reasons for which Earth caches should be treated differently than other caches.

 

One reason is that the Earth cache program has been set up for educational purposes. The loss if someone cannot visit a certain multi cache due to language reasons is not that high - there are typically other caches around. The loss if Earth caches at the most important geological highlights in a certain country are not available to the international public is much higher and contradicts somehow the targets of the Earth cache program. The Earth cache master program (though I am not a fan of it) supports visits to Earth caches in many countries. This is only possible if a common language is used and English is the only available option.

 

Earth caches are more easily placed than physical caches and can also be set up e.g. at vacation places. There needs to be a reasonable barrier such that only those with sufficient motivation are undergoing the effort for setting up an Earth cache. Motivated cachers can ask other cachers for help with the translation to English. There are not infinitely many interesting locations for Earth caches and not infinitely many geocachers who are really interested into geology and not just in a certain type of icon on the right side of their profile.

 

Another reason for sticking to the requirement for English descriptions is that this is the only way the GSA can keep control over the published caches and can react quickly if complaints about an Earth cache arrive.

 

 

If a CO decides to put a (english) translation with his cache, then i think this translation should be reviewed seperately by the reviewer for that langauge,

 

That would be fine with me, but does not correspond at all to the current practice. My Earth cache submissions would automatically be directed to geoaware.de although I would only submit an English version and the same would happen with a French version coming from Switzerland and a Slovenian version coming from Austria. It will never be possible to handle all languages within the Earth cache team. Note that there are still many countries where also the reviewing of physical caches is not based on the local language. Sticking to the requirement for an English version for Earth caches also keeps the level of fairness at a sufficiently reasonable level as it treats all non native speakers of English in the same way.

 

Given the new german EC reviewer i do have hopes this is an 'experiment' and we will see more other-than-english reviewers soon and therefore more other-than-english earthcaches. Give the large number of non-english-speaking cachers, finding EC reviewers for at least the big cache languages (spanish, french, protugese, maybe also dutch, norwegian, danish, swedish etc) should not be very difficult (i hope!).

 

In my opinion, it is more important for a prospective Earth cache reviewer to have a sound knowledge of geology than a knowledge of certain languages and this limits the number of eligible candidates considerably. Personally, I think moreover that having too many Earth cache reviewers increases the diversity too much and the same problems will show up than for physical caches. Caches that are published on a regular basis in country A are rejected on a regular basis in country B just because the reviewers in charge use a different interpretation of the guidelines. I would not like to see the same development for Earth caches. Earth caches need to stay something special and under close control of the GSA - otherwise they will end up in the same way as the former virtual caches at gc.com which had to be abolished years ago.

 

Cezanne