xhozt Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 +6 this is not a war you can win Groundspeak , work with us ... Quote Link to comment
Andronicus Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 +6 this is not a war you can win Groundspeak , work with us ... Sadly, Groundspeak can win this 'war'. They are the gate keeper, and since all the other listing services are lame, there realy is no competition. And, there are no good apps for any of those other listing services, so no matter how bad you think geocaching is, it is still the best out there. That said, I am still urging Groundspeak to allow others to use the API. PS as for Live.geocaching.com, I just tried it today. It looks like it has some potential, but currently it is realy bad, and super slow. Using an API is supposed to (among other things) speed up the access to data, not slow it down. What is up with that? Quote Link to comment
xhozt Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 +6 this is not a war you can win Groundspeak , work with us ... Sadly, Groundspeak can win this 'war'. They are the gate keeper, and since all the other listing services are lame, there realy is no competition. And, there are no good apps for any of those other listing services, so no matter how bad you think geocaching is, it is still the best out there. That said, I am still urging Groundspeak to allow others to use the API. PS as for Live.geocaching.com, I just tried it today. It looks like it has some potential, but currently it is realy bad, and super slow. Using an API is supposed to (among other things) speed up the access to data, not slow it down. What is up with that? im going to call and email them untill i am told how to get or "purchace" api access . it was given to the iphone devs some how .. Quote Link to comment
+obrynild Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 I'm a Premium GC-member. I'm not happy how GC is handling the situation with the Windows-Mobile-Platform. I can't understand that only IPhone and Nokia phones are supported. I have no idea why GC would ban a programm and is not offering any alternatives. I believe that caching with smartphones is the future. I confess that I used the program of "you know who" and I admit that I liked it. I don't feel ashamed for what I did and I probably would do it again. I believe in the freedom of speech. I don't know why GC can't make a deal with Tom Hiro to make the whole thing legal. I'm hoping that GC will act a bit more tolerant and listen to their members, who -so far- paid their yearly membership-fee, because they thought they supported a great sport/hobby and an organization "of Geocachers for Geocachers". Agreed.... Add me to the list! Quote Link to comment
+northernpenguin Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 +6 this is not a war you can win Groundspeak , work with us ... Sadly, Groundspeak can win this 'war'. They are the gate keeper, and since all the other listing services are lame, there realy is no competition. And, there are no good apps for any of those other listing services, so no matter how bad you think geocaching is, it is still the best out there. There's an interesting point - one way to spur mobile development on Geocaching.Com would be to develop decent mobile apps for the competition's sites. I'll bet they would be THRILLED to see someone scraping the site for an app on those other sites. For Live.Geocaching.Com - come on, I posted that back in post #2 and post #7. Read the thread before replying comes to mind but I'm sure that stick will be used against me as well. Live.Geocaching.Com was updated 10/2/2009 - 0.98.16. Right. Now click through to the Windows Mobile application download - it's at [v. 0.98.14]. Hmmm, why isn't that up to date with the Java version? Also note the Windows Mobile app wasn't updated after I discovered it in EARLY 2009. Now let's look at the release notes describing this version: - Contains major bugs and compatibility problems. Recommended currently only for development purposes That sure sounds like the Wherigo Player. I have tried using the live.geocaching.com app. It is REALLY not ready for prime time yet, although I do like the use of OpenStreetMap for the data - as I maintain a Trails Mapping project, I can actually contribute DIRECTLY to Geocaching.com and their membership with occasional updates to the OpenStreetMap trails in this area. But, try as I might to use this tool it is very cumbersome to use - really difficult to search for cache listings, and return to that list after seeking a cache. The app is not really designed for use in North America yet so I have to request a search for an area, then wait an hour or so for Groundspeak's servers to populate the cache data before I ask for it again and actually get results. The menus are about as intuitive as a FORTRAN compiler, and I sure as heck am not going to try to use that program to introduce Grandma to geocaching. Application XXXX had an interface similar to GS's iPhone interface and yes, I would put it in the hands of a 'non technology' person to seek a cache with. If I saw an update to live.geocaching.com, for Windows Mobile, I would likely shut my trap about this lack of Windows Mobile, as I'd have some sign from the silent monolith with the caching logo on it that, yes, it is in the works. -- I still maintain though that Groundspeak's main target to keep all of us happy - iPhone, WinMo, Android, Palm Pre, Blackberry Curve/Pearl/Tour/Storm/Storm2/whatever, Symbian, etc etc etc: MAKE A MOBILE VERSION OF THE GEOCACHING SITE.... IN FACT MAKE A MOBILE VERSION OF ALL THE Groundspeak SITES. Including the forums. Sure, no "caches near me" but heck, I can gleam my co-ordinates from some other app/tool and punch them into a search form. At least I could log in the field, and track trackables, all without touching the precious API. If Groundspeak wants to be clever, GPS co-ordinates can be gleamed off Google Gears which is available on most Mobile platforms. Quote Link to comment
xti90 Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Geez I didn't realize Win-mo users were so snobby.. Sorry to be so blunt but, wow! You do realize there are countless smartphones on the marketplace, running on one of nearly a dozen different operating systems.. Just because Groundspeak doesn’t work on your precious O/S first (or next..) you’re going to pout, pick up you crayons and take them to another playground? Oh well, it was nice knowing you, send a postcard Personally I’m an enthusiastic user of Palm webOS, and if some day GS decides to release an official app for it then that’ll be a great day! Until that time comes I will still happily support this fine sport/hobby. The funny thing is, I’d be willing to bet that some of the most vocal Win-mo fanatics in this thread won’t even be Geocaching 6 months from now.. Wow, thanks for your self righteous smug post...... Quote Link to comment
Motorcycle_Mama Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 ... snip then I read the link that the MOD provided. Even though that post was over a year old, I take it that that is still the policy today? ... snip I truly don't understand the "Trusted Partners" approach, when they have added the iPhone app to the list but not allowing other developers... I take it "Trusted" means "Paying". ... snip Of course, it means paying. Why wouldn't it? Groundspeak is a business. And the post (despite being a year old) was from Jeremy who is the owner of the site. And nothing (to my knowledge) has been posted to the contrary by Groundspeak since then. Quote Link to comment
xhozt Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 may need to be updated soon ... very soon ;-( Quote Link to comment
+fastcatcher Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 ... snip then I read the link that the MOD provided. Even though that post was over a year old, I take it that that is still the policy today? ... snip I truly don't understand the "Trusted Partners" approach, when they have added the iPhone app to the list but not allowing other developers... I take it "Trusted" means "Paying". ... snip Of course, it means paying. Why wouldn't it? Groundspeak is a business. Now we are getting somewhere!!! Can we take this as an official statement from GC? If yes, than thank you for this clear message! I prefer to know what I'm dealing with - rumours just produce misunderstandings! But wouldn't it be clearer when you say "Paying Distributor" (instead of "Trusted Partner") for Third-Party-Companies like "Trimble" right from the beginning? And why is GC not cooperating with a developer like TH, who has a brilliant Geocaching-software and a lot of WinMo-Geocachers who are even willing to pay for this app? I understand that GC is using my yearly fee ($ 30) as a premium member to run this site and to provide the Internet-service for the Geocache community. I understand and support this. But how many premium members does GC has? Multiply that by $30 - and I'm sure you find a good base to run a business. But at the end of the day business always depends on its customers (=members). And the key for a successful business is a good customer orientation. If you want to keep your business alive you gotta listen what your customers want. If your business-plan looks different, to what your customers want (or if you think, it's just a minority of your customers who ask for things that you don't want to deliver) you have to be honest and explain this in a honest way and you better present some good alternatives. Otherwise you are risking to loose your customers. It only starts with a few... But the word spreads around! I really think that Geocaching is a great hobby and I appreciate what GC did to build up this site in the Internet. But you need to move on! You need to watch, what happens around you. You need to be flexible and you need to be able for finding solutions. Otherwise you are nothing like a Dinosaur and you shouldn't wonder if your members (maybe just a few in the beginning) follow the principle "Love it, change it or leave it". Quote Link to comment
Motorcycle_Mama Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 If you are asking if my opinion is an official statement of Groundspeak, the answer is of course, no. I'm not employed by Groundspeak. If you are asking if Jeremy's statement is an official statement of Groundspeak, then the answer is yes. But again I would ask why it should be surprising that Groundspeak is a business and makes decisions for business reasons? And there have been many discussions that I have read discussing how much and/or how little money people think it takes to run the business. I don't know. Again, I don't work for them, but I suspect that our Premium Member fees are a very small percentage of what it costs to run Groundspeak. People who are have paid for services seem to think that they are in fact shareholders in the company and should be able to direct the business efforts and practices of the business. But this typically isn't the case with ANY business from which you purchase services. As to their official status and position regarding developing a Windows Mobile application, you would need to direct that question to contact@geocaching.com. Again, these are my personal opinions and not those of Groundspeak. Quote Link to comment
+northernpenguin Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 As to their official status and position regarding developing a Windows Mobile application, you would need to direct that question to contact@geocaching.com. Again, these are my personal opinions and not those of Groundspeak. Well put, Motorcycle_Mama. We do need to remember that we are customers, not shareholders. We can certainly make our requests known, but Groundspeak will act in the best interest of, well, Groundspeak. Quote Link to comment
+northernpenguin Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Just noticed that Groundspeak is very much into the iPhone --- they've also leveraged the Waymarking site to an app for it -- Historic Places Application (Waymarking) If you think the Geocaching site is painful on Pocket Internet explorer, try the Waymarking site. I pretty much stopped Waymarking due to the pain involved performing online searches using Pocket browsers on Windows Mobile, and there's no such thing as a Pocket Query on that site. Well there is, but it's the very definition of painful downloads. Quote Link to comment
+Pteropus Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) mention of unauthorized application removed by moderator I'm a Premium GC-member. I'm not happy how GC is handling the situation with the Windows-Mobile-Platform. I can't understand that only IPhone and Nokia phones are supported. I have no idea why GC would ban a programm and is not offering any alternatives. I believe that caching with smartphones is the future. I confess that I used the program of "you know who" and I admit that I liked it. I don't feel ashamed for what I did and I probably would do it again. I believe in the freedom of speech. I don't know why GC can't make a deal with Tom Hiro to make the whole thing legal. I'm hoping that GC will act a bit more tolerant and listen to their members, who -so far- paid their yearly membership-fee, because they thought they supported a great sport/hobby and an organization "of Geocachers for Geocachers". 100% agree. xxxxxx made me buy Premium Membership.. now anytime anyone writes about this app, they just delete the post.. I am from Slovakia, which was a totalitarian communist country for many years but this Groundspeak attitude towards us-geocachers (who they live of) very much resembles it.. I am very sad about this and am not going to renew the PM. Edited January 20, 2010 by Brad_W Quote Link to comment
Andronicus Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 ... snip then I read the link that the MOD provided. Even though that post was over a year old, I take it that that is still the policy today? ... snip I truly don't understand the "Trusted Partners" approach, when they have added the iPhone app to the list but not allowing other developers... I take it "Trusted" means "Paying". ... snip Of course, it means paying. Why wouldn't it? Groundspeak is a business. And the post (despite being a year old) was from Jeremy who is the owner of the site. And nothing (to my knowledge) has been posted to the contrary by Groundspeak since then. This is where GS needs to be more flexible in their buisness practeses. There is always more ways to make a proffit than one. Many members have already stated that they would pay, in addition to the primium membership fees, a access to the API fee. From the conversations I have had with the designer of BasicGPS, and reading what Tom has said, it appears that money and profit are not the issue. from what I can tell, it appears that these guys have essentialy been stonewalled on access to the API. Quote Link to comment
+Pteropus Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 BTW - all this censorship is really pathetic.. and dangerous! Crossing out or deleting certain names of applications?! My God, this is what they do in China!!! Quote Link to comment
+northernpenguin Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 BTW - all this censorship is really pathetic.. and dangerous! Crossing out or deleting certain names of applications?! My God, this is what they do in China!!! xxxxxxx! xxxxxx, xxxxx xxx x xxx xxxx xxx xx xxxx xx xx . xxxxxxxx yyyyyyyyy xxxxxx xx x xxx xxxxx xx. xxxxxxx xxx x xxxx xxxxx xx x xx xxxxxxxxxxx!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment
+CapeDoc Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I used xxxx for quite some time. Tom is amazing in his response to feature requests. He churns out updates in response to requests at a staggering rate. GS could learn a thing or two from him. I have switched from WM to an iPhone. Not for geocaching purposes (I was very happy caching with xxxxx on WM). All the feature requests I make in the iPhone forums are based on the features already available in xxxx. For every 1 signature added to this petition I know there are hundreds of people who would add their signature if they knew about the thread. This coming from a small country at the tip of Africa, where xxxx has a huge user group. +7 (and a few hundred others). .....from an iPhone user. Quote Link to comment
+ifco Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) Dear people at Groundspeak. I asking you to return my money for premium membership, since i can't use my Windows phone and [edited] for Geocaching and i don't have any other GPS device Thank you Edited January 20, 2010 by Keystone Quote Link to comment
+obrynild Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) BTW - all this censorship is really pathetic.. and dangerous! Crossing out or deleting certain names of applications?! My God, this is what they do in China!!! It can't be true? Lets try: I love x x x x x x ! or xxxxxx? xxxxxx? If these names are deleted, its true. In 2010 U can be censored by naming an application? Is this historical? Have they tought about how this could be headline news? I know a few medias that would be interested. Seriously: please join the debate, explain your views, but do not delete ours! Edited January 20, 2010 by Brad_W Quote Link to comment
+northernpenguin Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) BTW - all this censorship is really pathetic.. and dangerous! Crossing out or deleting certain names of applications?! My God, this is what they do in China!!! It can't be true? Lets try: I love x x x x x ! or xxxxxx? xxxxxx? If these names are deleted, its true. In 2010 U can be censored by naming an application? Is this historical? Have they tought about how this could be headline news? I know a few medias that would be interested. Seriously: please join the debate, explain your views, but do not delete ours! Thread locked by moderator in 3... 2.... 1.... Edited January 20, 2010 by Brad_W Quote Link to comment
+user13371 Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) For the most part, I'm entirely on GC.com's side of this debate and find a lot of the WinMo folks here to be off-base -- some bordering on the ridiculous. BUT ... I'm really surprised and puzzled that individual mods are selectively editing users' posts. There's just no sense to that, is there? Wouldn't it just make more sense to delete complete threads that mention it? Or just lock the threads, maybe with a standard boilerplate explaining the policy and why the thread was locked? That's be WAY faster than spot-editting posts here. They'll have a lot more work to do; google still shows over 700 mentions scattered about these forums... http://tinyurl.com/y012010 Edited January 20, 2010 by lee_rimar Quote Link to comment
Brad_W Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I hope this will be helpful. It has already been observed that a partnership between the application / developer and Groundspeak is not in place. I don't know that there will be or won't be a partnership arranged, but clearly the interest has been heard. Now for an analogy: In the US there are two major home improvement big box stores; one dressed in orange and one dressed in blue. Each of them has a house brand of hand tools. Now if I were to walk into either of these stores with a sign saying "Buy Craftsman Tools at Sears" I would be escorted off the premises immediately. And perhaps vigorously. We have no interest in escorting anyone out of the forums, or at least we would prefer not to. Almost everyone who has posted here brings helpful information in many areas. So please feel free to stay - and please lose the "Buy Craftsman Tools at Sears" signs. Thank you. Quote Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Dear people at Groundspeak. I asking you to return my money for premium membership, since i can't use my Windows phone and [edited] for Geocaching and i don't have any other GPS device Thank you Before you go - you might try: http://www.basicgps.co.uk/ Quote Link to comment
Andronicus Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Dear people at Groundspeak. I asking you to return my money for premium membership, since i can't use my Windows phone and [edited] for Geocaching and i don't have any other GPS device Thank you Before you go - you might try: http://www.basicgps.co.uk/ BasicGPS is a functionable app for Windows Mobile. Problem is that you will have to download your PQs, or bring printed sheets, or bring a note pad to copy coordinates from the wap.geocaching.com site. The reason we all love Tom's software is because it is the appitomy of spontanious caching. No paper, no wires, no downloads, and it is not a high bandwidth applicaiton. When we see an app like that, we think "If Tom can make this in his spair time, why can't GS sell us an app (from themselves or from a 3rd party) that can do this that won't have to breat the TOS?" I think that that is the real question Windows Mobile users have. PS Tom's software is better than any of the for pay software out there including the iPhone app. Quote Link to comment
+tsolt Posted January 20, 2010 Author Share Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) Before you go - you might try: http://www.basicgps.co.uk/ tried it, but if I have to downlaod and install PQ's, why should I use my phone, and not one of my GPSRs? The thing is, the legal winmo-app I so dearly want, is for instant caching when I have 15-30min spare time, like between meetings, and for FTF-hunts (the FTFhunt-part could have been covered by a direct download link to the GPX-file in the alert-mails, btw (yes, I have pushmail for the sole purpose of FTF's)). For all my other caching, I use my Oregon 550, or my 60CSX. ok, so I could use my internet browser on my HTC HD2, but I'm sorry to say that the GS-wap-pages has such horrible GUI, an a total lack of feature, that it's defacto useless. Then the last option is the HTML-version, but that option makes my wallet hurt (1mb download instead of a typical 45kb with the "unspeakable"app, and no free data plan), so I don't use it (and its not really easy to read on a small screen either). Because my employer basically says that iphone is a toy, and winmo is for work, I carry a winmo device. The lack of a winmo app makes me use groundspeaks services a lot less, because I can't carry a GPSR around all day, and old gpx's on my phone doesnt really encourage me to spontaneous geocahcing. And, when I don't cache regularly, geocaching tends to be farther and farther in the back of my head, and I use, and visits groundspeaks sites less often. Catch my drift? Is it to much to ask, that GS can make an effort to give their customers with a winmo phone a user friendly app with online access? I hope not, but I'm not holding my breath... BTW, Spot on Andronicus (in post #74) Edited January 20, 2010 by tsolt Quote Link to comment
+dreamfalcon Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) ... but clearly the interest has been heard. ... Almost everyone who has posted here brings helpful information in many areas. So please feel free to stay ... I agree Edited January 20, 2010 by dreamfalcon Quote Link to comment
Andronicus Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 BTW, Spot on Andronicus (in post #74) Rather than fighting with Tom and other WM app developers who are making exelent software, why doesn't GS partner with them, and quit wasting money with live.geocaching.com (which needs a lot of further development before it is good (I do like the Map with geocaches marked on it as the default screen though)). PS Apperantly the developer of BasicGPS wants to be able to get the cache info directly into the software, but he is unwilling to break the TOS after his last run in with GS. If BasicGPS could automaticaly download cache info, it would also be a realy good little app. Quote Link to comment
xhozt Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I hope this will be helpful. It has already been observed that a partnership between the application / developer and Groundspeak is not in place. I don't know that there will be or won't be a partnership arranged, but clearly the interest has been heard. Now for an analogy: In the US there are two major home improvement big box stores; one dressed in orange and one dressed in blue. Each of them has a house brand of hand tools. Now if I were to walk into either of these stores with a sign saying "Buy Craftsman Tools at Sears" I would be escorted off the premises immediately. And perhaps vigorously. We have no interest in escorting anyone out of the forums, or at least we would prefer not to. Almost everyone who has posted here brings helpful information in many areas. So please feel free to stay - and please lose the "Buy Craftsman Tools at Sears" signs. Thank you. your analogy holds no water bud ... there are no big competitors to GS/GC .. for a better analogy i bring you MA-BELL we are the only phone company out there so play by our rules or we will take away your phone. and we are the only ones with phones ... thats more like whats going on . : Quote Link to comment
jholly Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 your analogy holds no water bud ... there are no big competitors to GS/GC .. for a better analogy i bring you MA-BELL we are the only phone company out there so play by our rules or we will take away your phone. and we are the only ones with phones ... thats more like whats going on . : Oh? my cell phone does not depend on Ma. Quote Link to comment
NordicMan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 BTW, Spot on Andronicus (in post #74) Rather than fighting with Tom and other WM app developers who are making exelent software, why doesn't GS partner with them, and quit wasting money with live.geocaching.com (which needs a lot of further development before it is good (I do like the Map with geocaches marked on it as the default screen though)). PS Apperantly the developer of BasicGPS wants to be able to get the cache info directly into the software, but he is unwilling to break the TOS after his last run in with GS. If BasicGPS could automaticaly download cache info, it would also be a realy good little app. It seems one of the best "current" solution is to use something like that BasicGPS software, and can't you have your pocket queries emailed directly to your PDA? Isn't that a workable solution for the time being? The one obvious limitation to that setup is it's not optimal for "FTF enthusiasts".. but for most other aspects of Geocaching with a smartphone, isn't it a pretty good compromise? Like Brad said, an interactive API for Win-mo devices is within relm of possibility, "someday".. but not today. So use what's available Quote Link to comment
+northernpenguin Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 your analogy holds no water bud ... there are no big competitors to GS/GC .. for a better analogy i bring you MA-BELL we are the only phone company out there so play by our rules or we will take away your phone. and we are the only ones with phones ... thats more like whats going on . : Oh? my cell phone does not depend on Ma. Good point. That extends the analogy nicely. I have a Windows Phone because Apple said "No iPhones for Canada, and we're the only ones with iPhones!". Granted, a few months after I got my Windows Phone, Apple relented and released the thing in Canada... on Rogers. My Telus contract was still in full swing, and Apple said "Rogers and Fido! No Telus or Bell" so I'm still on the Windows Phone. That situation changed two months ago in Canada and now all carriers have the iPhone. So, there are millions of Canadians that cannot have this "Geocaching App for iPhone" because they're locked into contracts - the choice last year when the Geocaching App came out was: Go without a cell phone, or wait until the big boys let you have a toy. Groundspeak in this case is Apple. They decide who, and what markets (hint: mainly USA) get access to mobile tools for Geocaching. Your other option is to go without. It would be the same thing as if the Orange box store bought out all hardware chains, and then decided screwdrivers would be available only in the Northwest USA. All other places would have to use other fasteners. If you were caught making a makeshift screwdriver, it would be removed from your person and you'd be banned from ever shopping at the Orange box store again. What's even more Apple like is you get to watch Groundspeak release multiple upgrades for that other platform while you're still building walls with duct tape. Quote Link to comment
+user13371 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 for a better analogy i bring you MA-BELLwe are the only phone company out there so play by our rules or we will take away your phone. and we are the only ones with phones ... No, that's a much poorer analogy. There are LOTS of options* for geocaching, with and without paper, with and without a cellphone. What GC has "taken away" (or more accurately, "declined to support") are applications that violate the GC terms of use. To make your phone company analogy work, you'd have to compare those apps to the blue-boxes that early hackers used (decades ago) to steal service from the phone company. --- * Options: A stand-alone GPS, with or without a cheap PDA. An iPhone. An Android phone. Any WinMo or other smart phone using one of the available applications that DOESN'T break GC's rules. I would wager that over 99.99999% of all cache finds were made by means other than using a WinMo smartphone, regrdless of app software. Quote Link to comment
jholly Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 your analogy holds no water bud ... there are no big competitors to GS/GC .. for a better analogy i bring you MA-BELL we are the only phone company out there so play by our rules or we will take away your phone. and we are the only ones with phones ... thats more like whats going on . : Oh? my cell phone does not depend on Ma. Good point. That extends the analogy nicely. I have a Windows Phone because Apple said "No iPhones for Canada, and we're the only ones with iPhones!". Granted, a few months after I got my Windows Phone, Apple relented and released the thing in Canada... on Rogers. My Telus contract was still in full swing, and Apple said "Rogers and Fido! No Telus or Bell" so I'm still on the Windows Phone. That situation changed two months ago in Canada and now all carriers have the iPhone. So, there are millions of Canadians that cannot have this "Geocaching App for iPhone" because they're locked into contracts - the choice last year when the Geocaching App came out was: Go without a cell phone, or wait until the big boys let you have a toy. Groundspeak in this case is Apple. They decide who, and what markets (hint: mainly USA) get access to mobile tools for Geocaching. Your other option is to go without. It would be the same thing as if the Orange box store bought out all hardware chains, and then decided screwdrivers would be available only in the Northwest USA. All other places would have to use other fasteners. If you were caught making a makeshift screwdriver, it would be removed from your person and you'd be banned from ever shopping at the Orange box store again. What's even more Apple like is you get to watch Groundspeak release multiple upgrades for that other platform while you're still building walls with duct tape. I didn't realize Trimble Navagator was not available in Canada. Jim Quote Link to comment
+user13371 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) I didn't realize Trimble Navagator was not available in Canada.It is - if you have a supported phone.If you have a BlackBerry or Nokia phone, the application is carrier agnostic on those devices. In fact, for many GPS enabled Nokia devices like the N95, you can download and use Geocache Navigator for free. You can go to http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/SupportedPhones/ for some more information on supported phones and wireless carriers.Source http://www.geocachenavigator.com/Forums/ta...ts/Default.aspx Edited January 21, 2010 by lee_rimar Quote Link to comment
+Pteropus Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) I hope this will be helpful. It has already been observed that a partnership between the application / developer and Groundspeak is not in place. I don't know that there will be or won't be a partnership arranged, but clearly the interest has been heard. Now for an analogy: In the US there are two major home improvement big box stores; one dressed in orange and one dressed in blue. Each of them has a house brand of hand tools. Now if I were to walk into either of these stores with a sign saying "Buy Craftsman Tools at Sears" I would be escorted off the premises immediately. And perhaps vigorously. We have no interest in escorting anyone out of the forums, or at least we would prefer not to. Almost everyone who has posted here brings helpful information in many areas. So please feel free to stay - and please lose the "Buy Craftsman Tools at Sears" signs. Thank you. Now this is what they call demagogism! Unbelievable! And totally not true. How can you write such lies? I repeat, once again (after you deleted 5 of my posts): That unauthorized software made me BUY Premium Memebership at GC.com! That "XXX" software brought me to YOUR store and pumped up my interest in YOUR store! That software you don´t allow any mention of has brought YOU money! Now explain to me, how is this similar to coming to an orange store screaming "buy blue"?! Because in my opinion, what it does, is as if coming to any store and saying "buy at Groundspeak! God, I don´t believe my eyes. As I already wrote - I come from a communist country but this is much worse than anything I´ve ever experienced there.. And the worst part - still absolutely no explanation, what is wrong with it, why this war and why you´ve been acting so arrogantly towards us - the people you live of.. Edited January 21, 2010 by Pteropus Quote Link to comment
jholly Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 What is wrong with the application is that it scraps the site. When you signed up for an account you agreed to the terms of use, one of which says you will not scrape the site. By using this application you are violating the terms you agreed to. Since this application blatantly violates the terms of use I see no reason Groundspeak should condone, ignore or in any way allow mention or discussion of this application. It is unfortunate the author of the application was not fully honest with his users and point out that using the application is a violation of the terms. But then I understand it is free so I guess you got what you paid for. Quote Link to comment
Silvia&Juraj Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 What is wrong with the application is that it scraps the site. When you signed up for an account you agreed to the terms of use, one of which says you will not scrape the site. By using this application you are violating the terms you agreed to. Since this application blatantly violates the terms of use I see no reason Groundspeak should condone, ignore or in any way allow mention or discussion of this application. It is unfortunate the author of the application was not fully honest with his users and point out that using the application is a violation of the terms. But then I understand it is free so I guess you got what you paid for. Yes, there is sentence "You agree that you will not use any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means to access the Site for any purpose without our express written permission." in TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT. But can you tell me, what is scraper? When I use Firefox with advert blocking add-on, is it scraper? Am I violating the rules? And when I add some Greasemonky script to Firefox, which alternates the rendering of the page from gc.com, is it violation of the rules? What if I wrote my own script, which will automatically do copy-paste of the coordinates from listing to my navigation software. Am I violating the rules? And what if I use another browser to render html pages from gc.com. Is it forbidden? Is not the "forbidden application" just another kind of browser? Is there any "written permission" of allowed browsers? Don't we all violate this rule just using the "wrong" browser? Is not Pocket Internet Explorer in my PDA scraper? Can I use it or do I have to wait for "written permission" from Graundspeak to use it? Besides, mentioned sentence was not in terms of use, when I registered to this site. It was added later. Juraj from Silvia&Juraj Quote Link to comment
+ifco Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) BasicGPS isnt good like [reference to unauthorized application removed by moderator]. I often used list of caches near me. BasicGPS doesn't have this. And obscure live.geocaching.com? Let's have a look how application for Windows Mobile looks on WVGA screen: Controls are so small, that i can't use stylus nor fingers (i choose BIG screen controls in menu!)! Application is in beta and crashing. So, i want money back for my premium membership. Edited January 21, 2010 by Keystone Quote Link to comment
Hercule.Poirot Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 What is wrong with the application is that it scraps the site. When you signed up for an account you agreed to the terms of use, one of which says you will not scrape the site. By using this application you are violating the terms you agreed to. Since this application blatantly violates the terms of use I see no reason Groundspeak should condone, ignore or in any way allow mention or discussion of this application. It is unfortunate the author of the application was not fully honest with his users and point out that using the application is a violation of the terms. But then I understand it is free so I guess you got what you paid for. THERE IS ONE THING Groundspeak KEEPS A FORGETTING - IT IS US WHO CREATE THE CONTENT OF GEOCACHING. WE CREATE LISTINGS, WE CREATE CACHES.. THEY MERELY PROVIDE THE GROUNDS ON WHICH WE COMMUNICATE. SO THIS CRAP ABOUT DATA-MINING, SITE-SCRAPING - THAT´S RIDICULOUS. BASICALLY THEY SELL OUR PRODUCTS AND GET ALL THE MONEY AND NOW ARE FIGHTING AGAINST US - IS THIS CRAZY OR WHAT?! IF THEY´RE SO SERIOUS ABOUT BUSSINESS, THEN Groundspeak SHOULD BE PAYING EACH CACHER FOR EACH CACHE HE CREATES, BECAUSE IT THEN BRINGS PEOPLE TO Groundspeak TO TALK ABOUT IT AND THUS PROVIDES INCOME THROUGH ADVERTISEMENTS AND PMs! BUT NO, THEY FIGHT AGAINST US, CACHERS.. CRAZY, CRAZY WORLD.. Quote Link to comment
+fastcatcher Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Folks - let's try to stay constructive. We all share the same hobby and it should be our goal to find a solution that suits hopefully everyone. I can understand the frustration of the WinMo-user (I'm using a WinMo-phone myself) how GC is handling this subject. I can't understand the censorship-policy of Groundspeak (even if I read what they call their "reasons" why they are acting, like they do). From my personal point of view, this is very close to a restrictive "China-behaviour". But accusations, cynical comments AND censorship will just lead to the point, where both positions will become more rigid and we will withdraw from the chance to find a solution. For me there is some silver lining at the horizon when Brad says (in his definetly not easy function as a GC-Mod): It has already been observed that a partnership between the application / developer and Groundspeak is not in place. I don't know that there will be or won't be a partnership arranged, but clearly the interest has been heard. We have no interest in escorting anyone out of the forums, or at least we would prefer not to. Almost everyone who has posted here brings helpful information in many areas. I believe him and I'm really really hoping that GC is still able to listen to their members. I think meanwhile it's clear, that we are not a small bunch of outlaws, who have nothing better to do, then to fill this forum with our comments - just for the fun of it. I'm hoping that GC can still react like a modern business and moves into a dialogue with their members/customers and taking their wishes and needs seriously. To act like a dictatorship won't push them forward to a better business. I will very attentive watch how GC will react and I'm hoping that Brad is right, when he says, that our posts "brought helpful information in many areas" and "that our interest has been heard". Hopefully we will hear a positive echo to our calls. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm still believing in the good in people. I still believe that we all want to find ways to support the hobby we share together. It's really not that difficult to find a solution!!! So let us WinMo-users stay constructive and PLEASE GC give us a sign that you still care! Quote Link to comment
+Jake Bullit Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I have been a premium member for over 5 years,and have used different programmes on my WM devices. XXx is by far the best ,and has been developed by a fellow cacher just like us,for the benefit of other cachers.He has never asked for any payment ,for what must have been hours and hours of hard work,honing and fine tuning what must be the best software available. I regularly find myself in areas with no PQ loaded ,and XXx has helped me find a lot of caches I would not have found otherwise.It gives me up to date logs ,and all the help I could want for finding and logging caches and trackables. I know a lot of other cachers in my area who also use this program ,and I for one hope things are sorted out very soon. Quote Link to comment
Andronicus Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 ... But then I understand it is free so I guess you got what you paid for. Wow... You must have never seen how Tom's app works. For free you get the best geocaching app available. You are getting a lot more than you pay for. Not only is it free, but Tom refuses to accept donations. There is literaly no way to give Tom money unless you happen to bump into him while geocaching in Japan. I would wager that over 99.99999% of all cache finds were made by means other than using a WinMo smartphone, regrdless of app software. Well, every one of my finds were using my Windows Mobile HTC Vogue. My 220ish finds is likely less than 0.00001% of the total finds, but there are other people like me. Yes, there is sentence "You agree that you will not use any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means to access the Site for any purpose without our express written permission." in TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT. But can you tell me, what is scraper? When I use Firefox with advert blocking add-on, is it scraper? Am I violating the rules? And when I add some Greasemonky script to Firefox, which alternates the rendering of the page from gc.com, is it violation of the rules? What if I wrote my own script, which will automatically do copy-paste of the coordinates from listing to my navigation software. Am I violating the rules? And what if I use another browser to render html pages from gc.com. Is it forbidden? Is not the "forbidden application" just another kind of browser? Is there any "written permission" of allowed browsers? Don't we all violate this rule just using the "wrong" browser? Is not Pocket Internet Explorer in my PDA scraper? Can I use it or do I have to wait for "written permission" from Graundspeak to use it? This is a realy good point. When I studied this rule last summer when I first realized that Tom's software may be in violaiton, I interpreted this as AUTOMATED robots, spiders, or scrapers. The rational that has been presented for this rule is that someone had built an automated spider that was scraping the pages, and was chewing up massive bandwidth. Well, Tom's software is not automated (every quary is user initiated), and it is less bandwith intensive than just using the web page. As for Trimble Navagator, not only is it not available in Canada (unless you have one of those Nokia phones), it is not available for the number one manufacture of Windows Mobile phones (HTC). Quote Link to comment
+northernpenguin Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Trimble Navigator is available in Canada, on Rogers Blackberries. The Trimble site actually states outright that their software is not compatible with Telus Blackberries. Flips over his office Blackberry. Dang. There's a Telus logo on that so I'm still stuck with PQs and BasicGPS or Cachemate. Not the end of the world, but really not as nice as XXX. My main use of XXX was actually dropping trackable items into caches while I was there. You ever try to enter "DROPPED TB1X2YZ" on a Colorado. I'll bring a notepad and paper from now on (there goes the paperless thing). Nokia smartphones have a massive 0.000000001 % market penetration in Canada. -- So where are we on Windows Mobile for Geocaching? - You can use your Windows Phone like a standard GPS, downloading Pocket Queries to it. Actually, my Colorado handles this much better - I find programs like Cachemate and GPX Sonar tend to bog down when you load 2,000 caches into the database, while my Colorado can handle that easily. - You can use live.geocaching.com for immediate access to live data. The interface needs a lot of work, and it has a weird method for logging caches. Doesn't support trackable items but has chat feature. Chat feature is useless as it doesn't filter messages - you get all messages worldwide so good luck contacting a specific cacher. If Groundspeak fixes the UI, and ports the social networking features to the other platforms (iPhone, Android) this could get very interesting indeed. - You can NOT use any other native binaries for live cache data - You can technically use the website, particularly if you have a Desktop Style browser (Opera, Skyfire, Bolt). This experience is not optimal on a mobile device, and entering log text is painful due to the way the UI jumps around on the large input boxes. A mobile skin for the website would solve a lot of our mobile device problems, and come with the bonus of supporting any web enabled device - be it Windows Phone, Blackberry, iPhone or even something bizarre like an eBook reader. As Brad said above, we can rest assured that Groundspeak has HEARD the request of it's membership to do something, anything to support us - now the question remains, since we haven't had an "official response" from a decision maker at the company --- *will* the company do anything, or are they willing to take the negative hit for this one. What has been established: we want the feature What has not been established: It's worth the effort for Groundspeak to pursue -- that it's advantageous to Groundspeak when ALL factors are weighed in --- cost of development/aquisition vs projected income vs load on infrastructure vs existing agreements with "trusted partners" or vendors vs projected life cycle of the Windows Phone platform (let's face is 2009 the headlines were all about death of WinMo, even if we don't believe the press). Quote Link to comment
+dreamfalcon Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 ... death of WinMo.... I doubt, and if I have to buy another phone it will be a windows mobile just because the application xxx. Quote Link to comment
Bryan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I am Groundpeak's legal counsel and I am responsible for protecting Groundspeak intellectual property (Trademarks, Copyrights, Patents) as well as enforcing the Terms of Use Agreement. The GZCII application is using Groundspeak's registered Trademarks and other intellectual property without consent. The GCZII application is an automated tool that scrapes data from the geocaching.com website without authorization in violation of the Geocaching.com Terms of Use Agreement. At this point, the application developer and I will be meeting shortly to discuss options. Until the issues are resolved between Groundspeak and this developer, we have no interest in allowing the application to be promoted in the Groundspeak discussion forums and we will not be issuing further comments regarding this application. Quote Link to comment
+airprox Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I think most points have been argued here, but I must pick up the Blue store-Orange store analogy... If you actually had a store, I wouln't have to go to another store and start banging on about it! Also, I have no problem whatsoever in wearing a big T-shirt with GAP written on it, and walking into a NEXT store (or the equivelant US store). Quote Link to comment
+user13371 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) WAIT! I HAVE THE RIGHT ANALOGY! BOWLING ALLEYS! Every bowling alley in the country has rules about what kind of shoes you can wear and what kind of balls you can use. There are myriad suppliers of equipment, and bowling alleys are happy to let you use equipment from their supply or bring your own. Now, Tom is an avid bowler with his own special balls. He lets his friend play with them too. Some people (a small number, but a noisy bunch) insist they can't bowl unless they can play with Tom's Balls. Only problem is, Tom's Balls aren't "regulation." They're a have a surface coating that scrapes the lanes a bit. So bowling alleys don't let folks use Tom's Balls, don't advertise them on the bulletin board, and don't write about them in the league newsletter. To the vast majority of bowlers, it's no big deal. Some fans of Tom's Balls though, claim it's EXACTLY like rounding up dissidents and executing them! Does anyone else find the comparison of bowling alleys (or GC policy) to totalitarian regimes, well, a bit daft? Edited January 21, 2010 by lee_rimar Quote Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 WAIT! I HAVE THE RIGHT ANALOGY! BOWLING ALLEYS! Every bowling alley in the country has rules about what kind of shoes you can wear and what kind of balls you can use. There are myriad suppliers of equipment, and bowling alleys are happy to let you use equipment from their supply or bring your own. Now, Tom is an avid bowler with his own special balls. Makes them for his friends too, and doesn't charge for them. Some people (a small number, but a noisy bunch) insist they can't bowl unless they have Tom's Balls. Only problem is, Tom's Balls aren't "regulation." They're a bit too heavy and have a surface coating that scrapes the lanes a bit. So bowling alleys don't let folks use Tom's Balls, don't let folks won't advertise them on the bulletin board, and they don't write about them in the league newsletter. I like it!! Quote Link to comment
+fastcatcher Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I am Groundpeak's legal counsel and I am responsible for protecting Groundspeak intellectual property (Trademarks, Copyrights, Patents) as well as enforcing the Terms of Use Agreement. The GZCII application is using Groundspeak's registered Trademarks and other intellectual property without consent. The GCZII application is an automated tool that scrapes data from the geocaching.com website without authorization in violation of the Geocaching.com Terms of Use Agreement. At this point, the application developer and I will be meeting shortly to discuss options. Until the issues are resolved between Groundspeak and this developer, we have no interest in allowing the application to be promoted in the Groundspeak discussion forums and we will not be issuing further comments regarding this application. Ooops - Bryan named the evil-program!!! I wonder if this post will soon be edited But seriously: Is this good news? I think yes. We've got an official comment from GC! GC is willing to meet with Tom to discuss options! I think that this is not the right time where we should discuss, if Tom's App is an automated tool or an user initiated tool. I take Bryan's comment as a "good-will-sign" and I'm glad that GC showed, that they are still listening to their members. It would be nice if we could be informed about the development of the discussion between GC and Tom, so that there is no need for rumours and wrong interpretation. Quote Link to comment
kayl Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I am Groundpeak's legal counsel and I am responsible for protecting Groundspeak intellectual property (Trademarks, Copyrights, Patents) as well as enforcing the Terms of Use Agreement. The GZCII application is using Groundspeak's registered Trademarks and other intellectual property without consent. The GCZII application is an automated tool that scrapes data from the geocaching.com website without authorization in violation of the Geocaching.com Terms of Use Agreement. At this point, the application developer and I will be meeting shortly to discuss options. Until the issues are resolved between Groundspeak and this developer, we have no interest in allowing the application to be promoted in the Groundspeak discussion forums and we will not be issuing further comments regarding this application. Bryan- Thank you for the update- I hope that something can be worked out so that the application can be used and maybe even endorsed as an "official" application. In my admittedly short time that I've been geocaching, I used other WinMo apps, but this one is by far the best and would be a great asset to Groundspeak and the caching community. Hopefully an agreement can be worked out. Please keep us updated. Thank you! Quote Link to comment
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