Big Brother is watching!

[Neath Worthies]

I was reading something today which mentioned this website. If you click on the link and allow location services when prompted some interesting (scary?!) information is displayed. I was amazed at how accurate it was for me!!

 

It only seems to work in Firefox.

[+MartyBartfast]

I was reading something today which mentioned this website. If you click on the link and allow location services when prompted some interesting (scary?!) information is displayed. I was amazed at how accurate it was for me!!

 

It only seems to work in Firefox.

 

I'm not sure what the Mozilla one does, or how it works, but basically if the website knows your IP address it can make a pretty good stab at your location.

 

this one will work in any browser.

[+Guanajuato]

Pretty rubbish for me - The first suggests I'm probably an MP, being centred on the House of Commons. The second suggests I could be a stripping WI member, putting me in Rylstone near Skipton.

[Neath Worthies]

this one will work in any browser.

Thanks for that, however that just lists the location of my ISP. The one I mentioned locates my actual street which is right the other side of the country to my ISP's office.

[+*mouse*]

Got the right ball park - cool

Although if you want to know where we live you'd be better off using the coords for the cache we hid at the bottom of the garden

[+mtn-man]

If you are using a wireless connection, it will nail you pretty close due to the wifi location (MAC address). How do you think the WIFI part of the iPod Touch knows where you are? If you are using a hardwire system, it cannot pick you out as easily and gets your internet provider instead (though there are ways to do it with a hardwired system too).

 

http://coderrr.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/ge...-address-bssid/

Edited January 14, 2010 by mtn-man

[+agentmancuso]

I was reading something today which mentioned this website. If you click on the link and allow location services when prompted some interesting (scary?!) information is displayed. I was amazed at how accurate it was for me!!

 

It only seems to work in Firefox.

 

It's pretty accurate for me too. But on the other hand, it does require consent before finding you, and if you switch it off it can't find you any more. I'll bet other internet browsers do as much without your permission..

[+Amberel]

I was reading something today which mentioned this website. If you click on the link and allow location services when prompted some interesting (scary?!) information is displayed. I was amazed at how accurate it was for me!!

 

It only seems to work in Firefox.

On your link I wasn't even asked (and I do use FireFox). MartyBartfast's link correctly said I was in the UK, but didn't make any attempt to get closer that that.

 

Rgds, Andy

[+The Slaughter Family]

Can not find me

[+Haggis Hunter]

I was reading something today which mentioned this website. If you click on the link and allow location services when prompted some interesting (scary?!) information is displayed. I was amazed at how accurate it was for me!!

 

It only seems to work in Firefox.

On your link I wasn't even asked (and I do use FireFox). MartyBartfast's link correctly said I was in the UK, but didn't make any attempt to get closer that that.

 

Rgds, Andy

I too am on Firefox and had to give permission for my location to be shared. It was extremely accurate. I expect that the blue circle that was displayed was the radius of my wireless connection, but accurate all the same.

The other one could only say that I was in Edinburgh, but knew my internet provider.

[+simplysup]

Has my location pretty nailed on.

[+Eclectic Penguin]

That's pretty amazing. Does anyone know the technology and how it gets this nailed down so accurately.

[+MartyBartfast]

That's pretty amazing. Does anyone know the technology and how it gets this nailed down so accurately.

 

I think it does 2 things:

 

1. it gets your IP address and uses geo-location of IP addresses similar to the one I posted earlier. This has been possible for years. These will normally only be able to narrow down the location to the town level at best. These can also be fooled if you're using a proxy server which might end up showing your location as miles away.

 

2. It then looks for nearby wireless access points that have had their address registered. If it finds any it then uses them to narrow down the location.

 

I think you need to be using a newish version of FF, 3.5.7 is the latest, otherwise it won't work, and it won't work either if you don't have any wireless access points near you, or if you don't have a wireless card in your PC

 

I just did a test, and when it could see my neighbours wireless router it got me down to the street level, but when the router was not visible the best it could do was the town level, as other IP location services do.

 

Edit to add: and the baddies are already onto it see here

Edited January 14, 2010 by MartyBartfast

[+SidAndBob]

That's pretty amazing. Does anyone know the technology and how it gets this nailed down so accurately.

Check out the How Does It Work? section on the page.

 

It doesn't work for me despite having all the prerequisites present.

My IP Address gets the wrong ISP and location is out by almost 100 miles. Otherwise perfect.

[Neath Worthies]

If you are using a wireless connection, it will nail you pretty close due to the wifi location (MAC address).

So are you saying someone has driven past my house and noted my Wifi router's location? I find that very hard to believe (if you knew where I lived you'd understand!). So what if I moved and took my router with me, would it point to my old address? Even Google street view hasn't been down my way yet.

[Neath Worthies]

How do you think the WIFI part of the iPod Touch knows where you are

I have no idea

[+MartyBartfast]

If you are using a wireless connection, it will nail you pretty close due to the wifi location (MAC address).

So are you saying someone has driven past my house and noted my Wifi router's location?

 

It might not be your router, it could be picking up any nearby wireless router or access point, which has been registered by the owner, or the ISP in the case of those who give away wireless routers free with their broadband package.

[Pajaholic]

Pretty rubbish for me - The first suggests I'm probably an MP, being centred on the House of Commons. The second suggests I could be a stripping WI member, putting me in Rylstone near Skipton.

Pretty much the same for me. London/Coventry - and neither is within 200 miles of where I actually am.

[+HazelS]

Mine was SCARLILY accurate - like down to within tens of feet.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

A MAC address alone is not enough to devine locations of a router - and certainly not having a wifi connection open on your home router - it has nothing to do with WiFi (it's just that most people's routers are WiFi routers and therefore from this service it's possible to find where you live, then from the street outside it is possible to find your access point and hack it).

 

What is happening is this - your routers MAC address has previously been shared either by yourself via some kind of online geolocation service (you entered your address and it scraped your IP address and/or MAC address) or without your knowledge on an existing database (e.g. your ISP registered it), either held by Mozilla, or a company that allows Mozilla to look up the records (just looked this up and realise it's Google in this case).

 

MAC addresses can easily be changed, spoofed, or hardware can physically relocate. At this point the software is useless for detecting you - hence why some people have scarily accurate locations, whereas others are finding it's not even in their own county.

 

If you are worried by this then simply change the MAC address on your router and give it another test. However, if Mozilla are now retaining the data they just collected in their own database, you'll also need to remove all cookies and offline web content as well as possibly contact your ISP and request a new IP address in order to get it to 'lose' your location.

 

My location from work puts me in a giant circle with an accuracy of somewhere inside the M25. At home it's Milton Keynes (the location of my last ISP that I was connected to with the current router I am using).

 

Simples.

Edited January 15, 2010 by _TeamFitz_

[+drdick&vick]

Has me located just north of Leeds.

Trouble is that I am down in Cornwall on a mobile internet connection.

[+Eclectic Penguin]

Ok, laptop, connected via WiFi is very accurate indeed.

 

A hard wired computer, connected to the same router via cable - lists me in Docklands London, abour 200 miles away. It does seem to me that the WiFi is somehow being used to determine location.

 

Same laptop, with wifi/bluetooth turned off, hard wired into same router - I'm back in London

 

So it obviously makes use of the WiFi somehow to geolocate. Without this, it relies on the IP number which is presumably registered in Docklands, London.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Ok, laptop, connected via WiFi is very accurate indeed.

 

A hard wired computer, connected to the same router via cable - lists me in Docklands London, abour 200 miles away. It does seem to me that the WiFi is somehow being used to determine location.

 

Same laptop, with wifi/bluetooth turned off, hard wired into same router - I'm back in London

 

So it obviously makes use of the WiFi somehow to geolocate. Without this, it relies on the IP number which is presumably registered in Docklands, London.

 

Edit to remove as I reread your post... I'll have to look up how it does this, that surprises me.

Edited January 15, 2010 by _TeamFitz_

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Ok, laptop, connected via WiFi is very accurate indeed.

 

A hard wired computer, connected to the same router via cable - lists me in Docklands London, abour 200 miles away. It does seem to me that the WiFi is somehow being used to determine location.

 

Same laptop, with wifi/bluetooth turned off, hard wired into same router - I'm back in London

 

So it obviously makes use of the WiFi somehow to geolocate. Without this, it relies on the IP number which is presumably registered in Docklands, London.

 

Edit to remove as I reread your post... I'll have to look up how it does this, that surprises me.

 

OK Mozilla appears to be using Skyhook to get WiFi information. It's likely when you plug into your router and turn WiFi off, it has to rely one whatever's entered on record via your ISP or at Google, when you're WiFi is turned on it queries Skyhooks database which has been created.... wait for it.... by Skyhook staff driving around and picking up access points then recording their geolocation (much like Google driving around and photographing your street)!

 

Now, whilst not illegal, it is a little disconcerting. I can't test this now but I wonder what would happen if you change your ESSID - presumably you'd not exist with Skyhook again. Otherwise the only way to ensure it doesn't get recorded at all is to operate a hidden access point.

 

ETA after more consideration: Changing your MAC address and ESSID on the router should scrub it without needing to change your IP address.

Edited January 15, 2010 by _TeamFitz_

[Pajaholic]

Otherwise the only way to ensure it doesn't get recorded at all is to operate a hidden access point.

I'm not so sure that'd work since I had a shock when I downgraded one of my machines to Windows Vista Ultimate from XP Pro and my router came up on the list of WiFi networks even though I had broadcast of SSID turned off!

 

That said, I've been broadcasting SSID for about a year now from the same router with the same IP address, and they didn't get within 200 miles of my actual location. However, I suspect that the WAN and WiFi parts of my router have different MAC addresses, so they'd only be able to pinpoint my machines if connected to the router via WiFi?

 

Geoff

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Otherwise the only way to ensure it doesn't get recorded at all is to operate a hidden access point.

I'm not so sure that'd work since I had a shock when I downgraded one of my machines to Windows Vista Ultimate from XP Pro and my router came up on the list of WiFi networks even though I had broadcast of SSID turned off!

 

That said, I've been broadcasting SSID for about a year now from the same router with the same IP address, and they didn't get within 200 miles of my actual location. However, I suspect that the WAN and WiFi parts of my router have different MAC addresses, so they'd only be able to pinpoint my machines if connected to the router via WiFi?

 

Geoff

 

I'm really not an expert and haven't tested this. Your standard router will only have one MAC address, but what I think is happening is that it will first query your box to see if you are connecting over WiFi, if not it resorts to standard detection and doesn't attempt to look at the router. If you are then it will sniff your ESSID/Mac and pinpoint you.

 

If it still doesn't work over WiFi, count yourself lucky(?) that they haven't been down your street yet!

[Pajaholic]

I'm really not an expert and haven't tested this. Your standard router will only have one MAC address, but what I think is happening is that it will first query your box to see if you are connecting over WiFi, if not it resorts to standard detection and doesn't attempt to look at the router. If you are then it will sniff your ESSID/Mac and pinpoint you.

 

If it still doesn't work over WiFi, count yourself lucky(?) that they haven't been down your street yet!

I've just gone into my router's admin interface and checked. My router has four MAC addresses, one for each of the following interfaces:

• ADSL
  
• LAN Ethernet
  
• WAN Ethernet
  
• Wireless Network
  

That said, it's not one of the usual domestic routers. In addition, a modem connected to the WAN port would have it's own public-facing MAC address.

 

In any case, I suspect they'd need to associate my ADSL and WiFi MAC addresses for geolocation to work.

[+currykev]

If I can be pinpointed to within a few feet then...

COME GET ME THEN!

[+NickandAliandEliza]

If I can be pinpointed to within a few feet then...

COME GET ME THEN!

 

They probably will shortly anyway. I've informed the appropriate authorities that you recently admitted to wee-ing in the woods........

[GerritS]

I was reading something today which mentioned this website. If you click on the link and allow location services when prompted some interesting (scary?!) information is displayed. I was amazed at how accurate it was for me!!

 

It only seems to work in Firefox.

 

"Oops! An error occurred while trying to determine your position."

 

It does not like mobile phones! using phone as a modem seems to confuse it

[+MartyBartfast]

Changing your MAC addresses, or whatever, can only be partially effective as it is listening for any wireless access points in your location (which could be your neighbour, the local McDonalds, the pub.....), and it uses them too. You can easily turn off the feature in Firefox, which is explained on the page that Neath Worthies linked to in the original post.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Changing your MAC addresses, or whatever, can only be partially effective as it is listening for any wireless access points in your location (which could be your neighbour, the local McDonalds, the pub.....), and it uses them too. You can easily turn off the feature in Firefox, which is explained on the page that Neath Worthies linked to in the original post.

 

It's all well and good turning the feature off in Firefox, but as advised in El Reg article someone posted above, it's hardly a trivial matter for someone to inject or embed some script into a website you visit which will do this without asking permission.

[+mtn-man]

OK Mozilla appears to be using Skyhook to get WiFi information. It's likely when you plug into your router and turn WiFi off, it has to rely one whatever's entered on record via your ISP or at Google, when you're WiFi is turned on it queries Skyhooks database which has been created.... wait for it.... by Skyhook staff driving around and picking up access points then recording their geolocation (much like Google driving around and photographing your street)!

Exactly, and I posted an article about that in post #6 in this topic. If you look at the date of that article, it is September of 2008. They have been doing this for years.

 

Tonight I am on the road for business in a hotel using their WIFI. Clicking the link, it is centered within 100 meters of my hotel and the circle is tight and just gets the hotel where I am staying. When clicking it the other day from a hardwired computer, it just hit downtown with a very big circle 50 kilometers across. When I get back home tomorrow, my guess is that it would nail my house pretty accurately despite replacing my router only four or five months ago.

[Pajaholic]

Exactly, and I posted an article about that in post #6 in this topic. If you look at the date of that article, it is September of 2008. They have been doing this for years.

Aha! The penny drops, and explains why I'm not located from my desktop. From the linked article in post #6:

 

So what does the proprietary stuff do? It does the actual query to their API. And what does it send? It asks your wireless card to list all of the BSSIDs that you are in range of and sends those along with the signal strength of each.

So, it's not your own router that's used to pinpoint your location but those of your neighbours. Thus even if your computer were connected via cable, provided it has an active WiFi adapter their API would be able to interrogate it and report the BSSID and signal strength of each of the neighbouring WiFi nodes. Skyhook then use this info to calculate your position. IOW the way they establish your location initially has nothing to do with the public MAC address of your own internet connection.

 

So it won't work with those of us on wired connections unless they've managed to associate your router's Internet interface with a geographic location. For example, they could do this if someone previously ran the script from within your network on a computer with an active WiFi adapter.

 

The same applies to mobile broadband (since it's not WiFi) as per DrDick&Vick's post #21. Even though the mobile network can pinpoint you pretty accurately, I guess they don't share the info with Skyhook, which uses a completely different geolocation method and (given the nature of mobile broadband) Skyhook is likely to be accurate only to the nearest country!

 

... I think

 

Geoff

[+drdick&vick]

Oh dear, still in deeper Cornwall but it says I am in Worcester